:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Sarah Montague. What difference can the
:00:20. > :00:24.design of a building make? Can architecture inspire people to think
:00:25. > :00:28.differently? Perhaps even to behave differently Herston mark my guest is
:00:29. > :00:34.one of the most sought-after architects in the world today. Among
:00:35. > :00:39.his many buildings, the Nobel Peace Center in Oslo, a business school in
:00:40. > :00:43.Moscow, a shopping centre in Lagos, a housing project in New York's
:00:44. > :00:48.Harlem, and about to open, his biggest project yet. The National
:00:49. > :00:53.Museum of African American History and Culture sitting right on the
:00:54. > :00:56.national in Washington. Has David Adjaye got it right? What is the
:00:57. > :01:32.test of a good building? David Adjaye, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:33. > :01:34.Thank you. Given the history of this project, the National Museum of
:01:35. > :01:37.African American History and Culture, and its location, is it the
:01:38. > :01:40.biggest professional challenge you have faced questioning yes, I would
:01:41. > :01:43.say so, no doubt, it's been an eight-year journey this year so it's
:01:44. > :01:50.been the biggest project I've ever on. 84 U but the first time this
:01:51. > :01:55.museum was mooted was 100 years ago -- eight years for you. Absolutely,
:01:56. > :01:58.it's been a long time coming. The director of the museum said no
:01:59. > :02:02.matter what you do this world be the thing you will be most known for.
:02:03. > :02:10.Highly likely. I can't question that. Here we are a few months from
:02:11. > :02:14.its opening, it's almost complete now. It's almost complete, it opens
:02:15. > :02:19.in September this year. Are you where you want to be, are you in a
:02:20. > :02:23.position where you think this is what I envisage, this is what I
:02:24. > :02:27.wanted to do? I couldn't be more thrilled. When I go to Washington
:02:28. > :02:32.now, the site has been opened and the city can see it, the gardens
:02:33. > :02:36.have been planted, apart from the snow, that has taken them down, but
:02:37. > :02:40.the site has been planted, it is there, you can see the presence and
:02:41. > :02:44.the relationships we worked on for many months and years suddenly makes
:02:45. > :02:49.sense. We're very excited. When do you decide if it's been a success?
:02:50. > :02:54.When people walk in and start using it the way we think they would enjoy
:02:55. > :02:58.it. If that happens and if they make new discoveries that add to the
:02:59. > :03:03.qualities we imagine then we know it's a success. It could yet prove a
:03:04. > :03:10.failure? Absolutely. But I doubt it. And in terms of its reception,
:03:11. > :03:13.when the reviews come in and people said... We can't do anything about
:03:14. > :03:18.reviews, some people will love it and some people will find it
:03:19. > :03:21.difficult. It's a building that's not background. It's really
:03:22. > :03:27.something that makes a statement about where America is right now. In
:03:28. > :03:30.the world where we live where issues about how our cities are made up of
:03:31. > :03:35.different diversities and groups from different ethnicities, this
:03:36. > :03:40.project goes straight to that sort of discussion because it talks about
:03:41. > :03:42.the nature of America and how its communities are brought together.
:03:43. > :03:47.And it talks about a very important community who were used for commerce
:03:48. > :03:51.to make America who feel they have been sidelined and who now have a
:03:52. > :03:55.place on the national wall rightfully. It is on the national
:03:56. > :04:00.wall surrounded by neoclassical buildings. Absolutely. Which is why
:04:01. > :04:04.Robert Stern, Dean Addy of School of architecture, said it didn't have a
:04:05. > :04:09.strong lectureship for them. Some would say it is good but maybe it's
:04:10. > :04:13.not the best thing. I know Robert. I admire him because I think he's a
:04:14. > :04:17.great thinker. What he's not realising is we're not making
:04:18. > :04:20.architecture that is magnetic. We didn't want to mimic the
:04:21. > :04:25.neoclassical architecture around but we wanted clues from it. I would
:04:26. > :04:32.argue it has a podium. It sits on it. It has symmetrical facades, it
:04:33. > :04:36.is for sites that are symmetrical, things of the classical language. It
:04:37. > :04:40.refers to the Washington monument, there's an obelisk that refers to
:04:41. > :04:46.Egyptian architecture, not just grit, which is what Robert refers
:04:47. > :04:49.to. It's unpacking that Washington is much more complicated than the
:04:50. > :04:53.Greek neoclassical language, it embraces and goes back to the
:04:54. > :04:58.beginnings of the origins of architecture in terms of Egypt's
:04:59. > :05:01.history and its influence on what becomes European, classical
:05:02. > :05:05.architecture, but it talks about modern architecture and those
:05:06. > :05:08.relationships. A black American going to that building feels what?
:05:09. > :05:14.What does it make them feel and think? I think knowing that building
:05:15. > :05:19.is there next them feel they are very much part of this nation, they
:05:20. > :05:23.are very much part of the nation. You could put anything there for
:05:24. > :05:29.that. When you were designing it what did you think it would do?
:05:30. > :05:32.Architecture sadly is silent, it relies on people engaging and
:05:33. > :05:35.understanding it. The building doesn't have a message. When the
:05:36. > :05:39.first person saw a classical building they didn't think it was a
:05:40. > :05:44.temple, they were told so, they were told it is a place of worship. It
:05:45. > :05:48.has a powerful story. It talks about the story of the African-American
:05:49. > :05:52.community and the reference is made in terms of performance. It's not an
:05:53. > :05:58.arbitrary functional form. It's a functional device, it's a corona
:05:59. > :06:01.which creates the first environmental leads building on the
:06:02. > :06:05.Washington more, so highly sustainable, but it looks at the
:06:06. > :06:09.geography of an African heritage which was to look at the sculpture
:06:10. > :06:15.of the shrine houses of the group, which is where... In that part of
:06:16. > :06:19.West Africa a lot of the African-American community came from
:06:20. > :06:24.that, using DNA tracking, we know that a large part of that community
:06:25. > :06:28.came from that. I wanted to make a slightly romantic reference to the
:06:29. > :06:31.long history of this community, not just the American history but to say
:06:32. > :06:36.they came from Africa, they cross the ocean, they came to America, but
:06:37. > :06:40.the details of the building aren't specifically African, its hybrid.
:06:41. > :06:46.The details are ones that look at the work of the African-American
:06:47. > :06:48.slaves, the ironwork in Charleston, Louisiana, taking the classical
:06:49. > :06:53.language and working with it and I love that. You designed this but you
:06:54. > :06:56.aren't American. Not at all. Even the director of the museum
:06:57. > :07:00.acknowledged a lot of people felt it had to be designed by a black person
:07:01. > :07:04.but specifically an African American. What's been the reaction
:07:05. > :07:12.to the fact that here you are, born in Tanzania, but you are largely
:07:13. > :07:15.British. Yeah. I think that I applaud the jury for taking me
:07:16. > :07:20.because I think the African-American story is really a story of black
:07:21. > :07:25.modernity. If you really is an explosion were black culture is
:07:26. > :07:30.embedded deep in white culture, but then has to develop really fast in
:07:31. > :07:34.the 20th century, 19th century to have its own identities. But some
:07:35. > :07:40.people will say, look, what about using an American? After all, isn't
:07:41. > :07:45.it a continuing part of the problem of exclusion? I would say that it is
:07:46. > :07:49.really a shame that at this stage, even at that stage eight years ago I
:07:50. > :07:53.was probably one of the few prominent architects of colour that
:07:54. > :07:56.had actually risen through the ranks and won competitions and not just
:07:57. > :08:00.been handed work because of my colour. I wonder international
:08:01. > :08:06.competitions against the field and have built my reputation and build
:08:07. > :08:11.my name through my work. -- I won. What they found was I had risen to a
:08:12. > :08:16.point where I could demonstrate the capacity to do that work, to do such
:08:17. > :08:23.a project of such complexity, and, you know, I would not have any sense
:08:24. > :08:26.of... Sort of, lack of empathy for the subject. I think in
:08:27. > :08:30.architecture, it's difficult to say a person from the ethnic country, or
:08:31. > :08:36.the national country, has to be the person that designs it. Architecture
:08:37. > :08:40.is very migratory. Looking at Saint Petersburg, it was built by
:08:41. > :08:45.Italians. The world is much more complicated than national
:08:46. > :08:52.boundaries. Let's look ABBA, Purdue centre in Paris, built by rogers. He
:08:53. > :08:56.said of that, it's a very powerful moment when he built something of
:08:57. > :09:00.such huge significance, which this is to America. It does crazy things
:09:01. > :09:03.to your career when you kind of mushroom and it creates
:09:04. > :09:08.complexities, and you must be so aware of that now. Good and bad.
:09:09. > :09:12.Yes, it conflates and expands things, it allows you to have access
:09:13. > :09:16.to things like this. Who would have thought I would have been here
:09:17. > :09:21.talking to you on HARDtalk? At the same time it is also a tough subject
:09:22. > :09:25.because it is when architecture gets into the public psyche the way
:09:26. > :09:29.normal architecture within libraries and schools don't come up to that
:09:30. > :09:33.plateau. You're dealing with political issues, and I'm talking
:09:34. > :09:36.about politics with you when I'm really an architect. Let's talk
:09:37. > :09:42.about politics and library because you are one of the front runners for
:09:43. > :09:46.one of Barack Obama's... I am in the short list of seven to do the
:09:47. > :09:51.studies, yes. The presidential library to be built in Chicago. Can
:09:52. > :09:56.you do it not being an American? I think the shortlist said it doesn't
:09:57. > :10:00.have to be an American, it recognises architecture is an
:10:01. > :10:03.international universal language of our civilisation and humanity and
:10:04. > :10:08.there are three foreigners on the list. That is a big statement,
:10:09. > :10:12.anyone can do it if you have the talent. You talk about the new
:10:13. > :10:15.language we need in public buildings. People typically look
:10:16. > :10:20.back when they should be looking forward? I don't mind looking back,
:10:21. > :10:26.it's important and you need to learn lessons. But architecture has for so
:10:27. > :10:30.long been embedded in codes in the way we want to create exclusions or
:10:31. > :10:37.separations. We are in a century where we have finally begun to
:10:38. > :10:41.become embedded towards our planet and other species' relationship with
:10:42. > :10:46.it. I think it makes us responsible stewards to make things on the
:10:47. > :10:49.planet which have agency in terms of understanding exactly where they
:10:50. > :10:54.are, their geography and context, but also acknowledging the state of
:10:55. > :10:57.the people at the time. I mean their democratic ideals, their beliefs
:10:58. > :11:01.about what the future should be. I think architecture can harness those
:11:02. > :11:07.lessons and actually exemplify and embody those
:11:08. > :11:13.things. A complete contrast, let's go to Rwanda, you are building a
:11:14. > :11:18.Jordan Owens hospital south of Kigali. A rather different project,
:11:19. > :11:22.and the first of its kind in Africa -- Children's Hospital. The whole
:11:23. > :11:27.continent. Cancer is a major problem of the 20th
:11:28. > :11:32.love what President Obama said in his State of the
:11:33. > :11:41.let's try to get rid of cancer, it would be extraordinary. But here we
:11:42. > :11:46.Dubai, Singapore, the US or Europe. If you can't for
:11:47. > :11:54.it? In a way, the funding of this... It is part the US and also African
:11:55. > :11:57.investors, but it's a global investment that recognises this is
:11:58. > :11:59.important and it needs to happen. The site that has been chosen is
:12:00. > :12:03.Rwanda because it is centrally located in terms of the continent,
:12:04. > :12:07.it has enough infrastructure to support it. It's also not just a
:12:08. > :12:12.hospital, it is a training sector for other doctors in the region to
:12:13. > :12:13.use it as a place to get expertise. You approach a design like that and
:12:14. > :12:20.you think differently in terms of everything, not least what you can
:12:21. > :12:24.afford. Absolutely. In Rwanda we think about architecture that needs
:12:25. > :12:29.to It's right in the heart of the
:12:30. > :12:31.tropical forest of Africa, the dense part where the river networks are.
:12:32. > :12:39.It's humid. It hospital anywhere else. It's talking
:12:40. > :12:40.about cancer care, so it has to have inspiration.
:12:41. > :12:55.have to be uplifted and some of the great projects that have looked at
:12:56. > :12:58.back to nature. The idea of reconnecting people to the
:12:59. > :13:00.environment but also making an environmental response that Shields
:13:01. > :13:02.and shades, doesn't create an alien object, also some of the
:13:03. > :13:08.want to work through in the project for that. The geometry you see on
:13:09. > :13:14.the skin of the building and the way that it is organised is based on
:13:15. > :13:17.understanding Rwandan vernacular architecture, the patterns women
:13:18. > :13:21.make with John retreat to adorn their buildings. We want to use
:13:22. > :13:27.computer technology to turn them into shading devices and devices to
:13:28. > :13:31.screen the building. Are you suggesting that the building is part
:13:32. > :13:36.of the treatment? People can get better if they are in a good
:13:37. > :13:40.building? I completely believe it. The quality of the built environment
:13:41. > :13:45.can inspire a person to feel better about themselves, which encourages
:13:46. > :13:53.thereby the two feel better. It's down to aesthetics? It is emotional
:13:54. > :13:57.and aesthetics. It's how... Is not so much about aesthetics, is it
:13:58. > :14:01.tastefully done or not, is there a certain integrity that makes you
:14:02. > :14:06.feel comfortable and gives you a sense of well-being and comfort? And
:14:07. > :14:09.an ability to be inspired by the environment. In the end architecture
:14:10. > :14:17.is a series of environments to inspire us I believe. Can it do
:14:18. > :14:24.more? In a sense what you are trying to do with the museum in Washington
:14:25. > :14:27.is get people to think. It is almost an intellectual exercise. What about
:14:28. > :14:33.the way they behave? There has been a great deal of focus, not least by
:14:34. > :14:40.David Cameron, a couple of weeks ago suggesting he wants to transform 100
:14:41. > :14:45.housing estates across the country, and he talks about a warm family
:14:46. > :14:49.home, you open the door and you are confronted by a warm family home,
:14:50. > :14:54.you open the door and you are confronted by to criminals and drug
:14:55. > :15:01.dealers. These places design in crime rather than Afful stop that is
:15:02. > :15:05.a great misunderstanding. It is not the conflict creating criminals.
:15:06. > :15:11.Many will be people live in concrete buildings. I wealthy people also
:15:12. > :15:15.criminals? Japan has more concrete buildings than anywhere else and is
:15:16. > :15:19.part of the highest elite. Switzerland built in concrete.
:15:20. > :15:23.Concrete is a great material. It is a question of investment and
:15:24. > :15:28.support. With housing, post-war architects had to build housing
:15:29. > :15:33.quickly because we had a serious war that everyone had come through, no
:15:34. > :15:38.housing, it had to be done quickly. We didn't learn from the lessons of
:15:39. > :15:41.the past and build in networks and infrastructure supporting dance
:15:42. > :15:47.communities. You can't have a tower in a field of grass with no support,
:15:48. > :15:49.no shops, no infrastructure. You cannot rule these buildings without
:15:50. > :15:56.looking after them. It is not the building. If he goes ahead with
:15:57. > :16:00.this, does this regeneration, that's not going to make a difference? If
:16:01. > :16:04.you look at Sheffield, Parkhill estate, which is very famous, which
:16:05. > :16:10.everyone thought was a bunker, they have refurbished it, very elegant,
:16:11. > :16:14.and it is one of the most desirable places in Sheffield. It is about
:16:15. > :16:21.modernising buildings. When your fridge is out of date, you don't
:16:22. > :16:27.keep it because... You update it. You need love and maintenance. You
:16:28. > :16:31.accept what he is saying? Yes. They say that the riots in 2011, three
:16:32. > :16:37.quarters of those lived in the state. That is to do with poverty.
:16:38. > :16:44.Slums are part of that. Think of the Victorian slums. Aces -- places
:16:45. > :16:49.where poverty was rife. It is about making them sustainable and creating
:16:50. > :16:56.this support that deals with that. Even the Joseph Rowntree foundation
:16:57. > :17:00.charity says it is true that poor housing can keep people in poverty.
:17:01. > :17:05.That is the point. Run down estates. That is the point. You would say to
:17:06. > :17:09.keep the buildings, give their maintenance and care but you are
:17:10. > :17:13.putting something alongside them? Improve them. Use solar energy.
:17:14. > :17:20.Putting infrastructure to support the community. What in a doctors
:17:21. > :17:25.surgery, infrastructure to support high-density communities. This is
:17:26. > :17:30.not correct. If he is said to you to redesign? Happily. We have many
:17:31. > :17:36.strategies. A lot of architects know what to do. What has happened is we
:17:37. > :17:46.have left these communities and we haven't invested in them. What would
:17:47. > :17:51.David Adjaye 's redesign housing estate do for crime in the area and
:17:52. > :17:57.possibly poverty? How far can you claim to make a difference? I think
:17:58. > :18:00.that people very much reflect... A thesis is which says that if your
:18:01. > :18:05.environment feels poor and downtrodden, you will feel
:18:06. > :18:10.aggressive and no empathy towards it. If your environment is well
:18:11. > :18:14.invested in and looks as if it supports communities, different age
:18:15. > :18:17.groups and communities, it is harder to vandalise and go against it.
:18:18. > :18:22.There are many examples to prove that is the case. Someone approaches
:18:23. > :18:29.you and you say what? Is it down to the money? Give me this money and I
:18:30. > :18:34.can do it... Make the analysis of these estates, analyse them, see
:18:35. > :18:39.what needs to be done. Sometimes materials invented in their 50s are
:18:40. > :18:44.no longer healthy. Take them out. It happens with all buildings. You have
:18:45. > :18:48.to improve them. You add infrastructure. With housing estates
:18:49. > :18:51.it is critical to support them with the right kind of community support
:18:52. > :18:56.so that they are places for all age groups, for all kind of diversity
:18:57. > :19:03.and walks of life. We mustn't turn them into ghettos. Are they not
:19:04. > :19:08.already? They are not. They are ghettoised. If you got your hands on
:19:09. > :19:13.it it could still end up being a brutal high-rise tower but because
:19:14. > :19:22.of what else you adding to it you change it? You adding -- add
:19:23. > :19:28.support, yes, some materials will be worn out and you redo those. What do
:19:29. > :19:32.you think of David Cameron? He is absolutely right that there is crime
:19:33. > :19:39.in these places but the answer is not to bulldoze the architecture and
:19:40. > :19:42.see what support is needed and I say that because of the sustainability
:19:43. > :19:46.argument. I don't think we should trash buildings and take them down
:19:47. > :19:51.and blame them for problems. I think we should analyse things, look at
:19:52. > :19:55.the evidence and see how we can change those conditions. Listening
:19:56. > :19:58.to you I am reminded of one of your critics who described you as
:19:59. > :20:04.allowing your eloquence to run away with you. OK. The criticism has been
:20:05. > :20:09.made of the buildings as well. Roland Moore, critic at the Observer
:20:10. > :20:12.has said there is a tendency for the story to outrun the realisation. He
:20:13. > :20:18.was speaking about Whitechapel library. The public library. Yes.
:20:19. > :20:21.What we were doing when we were looking at the library was to
:20:22. > :20:26.encourage as many people as we could to go to the library. When we built
:20:27. > :20:30.it, we found a year later that there were too many people. We were too
:20:31. > :20:37.successful. This was one of the criticisms. The entrance always
:20:38. > :20:42.worked. The escalator was shut down and people said, that is a
:20:43. > :20:48.demonstrated failure. No, it demonstrated the success. The
:20:49. > :20:51.building work too well. With the analysis of the conversation it was
:20:52. > :20:57.all about how to get people into buildings. It was sad for me for him
:20:58. > :21:02.to do that because he knows that community and that it is one of the
:21:03. > :21:06.most used libraries in London. You were involved in a project in New
:21:07. > :21:15.York which was, described variously as too dark grey. One was offset on
:21:16. > :21:21.top of the other. The Guardian called it a blocky concrete citadel.
:21:22. > :21:26.It was also called grim, and an arty fortress. When you read that what
:21:27. > :21:29.you think? I think critics are absolutely allowed to say what they
:21:30. > :21:34.want and I think the idea of architecture is not to make everyone
:21:35. > :21:37.happy, especially critics happy. They want to interrogate and check
:21:38. > :21:47.things, and I think that is really healthy. I welcomed the discussion.
:21:48. > :21:48.If you go to the building and ask them what they love and hate about
:21:49. > :21:52.it, no that is a problem. The community
:21:53. > :21:59.chose the colour. designed with bamboo floors,
:22:00. > :22:10.environmental systems, they have a creche for 145 kids, they have
:22:11. > :22:13.by buildings. What are you listening for? How people are listening for,
:22:14. > :22:20.the patterns and to see where we have made mistakes -- I stalk my
:22:21. > :22:25.buildings. What do you hope to hear when you eavesdrop on passers-by?
:22:26. > :22:31.The happiness and joy in the environment it has created. That it
:22:32. > :22:33.is contributing to the better way of life. You are in a mixed ordinary
:22:34. > :22:37.position. You have commissions from all over the world. You are
:22:38. > :22:40.influencing public life, effectively. And yet the year that
:22:41. > :22:43.you were asked to do the Smithsonian Museum in Washington was the year
:22:44. > :22:51.your That was a remarkable turnaround.
:22:52. > :22:56.Thank you. It was the toughest time of my life. I was trained as an
:22:57. > :22:59.architect, not a businessman. I have had to learn the business of running
:23:00. > :23:05.100 people my own way. have an MBA. I did not know how to
:23:06. > :23:05.do business. You could not be in that situation a
:23:06. > :23:17.infrastructure that would help us not to get into that situation
:23:18. > :23:18.naively -- again? I got into that situation naively because I won a
:23:19. > :23:25.lot of competitions and I comes to you and says I want you to
:23:26. > :23:29.build one of the taller skyscrapers. Would you do it? I would not be
:23:30. > :23:40.contributing to how it can be an exemplar and how to use energy
:23:41. > :23:45.efficiently than yes -- aesthetics. I am not interested in it as a
:23:46. > :23:50.brooch or a badge. There is a fashion for very high rise. There
:23:51. > :23:54.are a lot of architects who love doing that but it is not what I am
:23:55. > :24:00.interested in. I'll am interested in architecture that is beating to
:24:01. > :24:02.humanity -- I'm. Dealing with overcrowding in cities. Cities will
:24:03. > :24:03.grow more than 50% of living in cities and it will grow
:24:04. > :24:12.even more in 15 years. There will be 41 mega cities around the world with
:24:13. > :24:17.over 10 million people. We have to have solutions. It won't be about
:24:18. > :24:48.countryside villas. It will be density and infrastructure and