:00:00. > :00:00.You're up to date with the latest headlines on BBC News.
:00:00. > :00:00.And now in a change to our scheduled programming,
:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk from Riyadh Saudi Arabia
:00:20. > :00:24.with me Stephen Sackur. These are deeply troubling times in this
:00:25. > :00:27.oil-rich kingdom. Saudi Arabia is locked in a confrontation with Iran
:00:28. > :00:32.that is playing out in Syria and Yemen. The oil price has crashed and
:00:33. > :00:38.his country's human rights record is widely condemned -- this. My guest
:00:39. > :00:44.today is the spokesman for the Saudi Interior Ministry, General Mansour
:00:45. > :01:04.Al-Turki. Is the house of Saud in need of major repair? General
:01:05. > :01:11.Mansour Al-Turki, welcome to HARDtalk. You are welcome and thank
:01:12. > :01:16.you for having me. Can you remember a time of greater uncertainty than
:01:17. > :01:20.there is right now? When you have got a plummeting oil price which is
:01:21. > :01:25.fundamentally affecting the revenues that are coming into your
:01:26. > :01:29.government, to your country, you have also got a hugely turbulent
:01:30. > :01:34.region and your country is involved in some of the conflict in this
:01:35. > :01:37.region. And you have got strained alliances, most particularly with
:01:38. > :01:41.your greatest supporter and friend, the United States of America. If you
:01:42. > :01:48.put all of those together, it is something of a perfect storm that
:01:49. > :01:53.facing your country today. Well, actually I think we are used to
:01:54. > :02:00.dealing with hard situations. The most important thing he is how we
:02:01. > :02:07.are unified and how we are willing to defend our country and to defend
:02:08. > :02:12.our values and beliefs. And when it comes to the economy, I think this
:02:13. > :02:17.is something the government is dealing with and I do not actually
:02:18. > :02:22.have much in particular to talk about regarding the economy, I am a
:02:23. > :02:28.security person. I am very much concerned actually with the
:02:29. > :02:35.situation that we are dealing with, not just in Saudi Arabia, but the
:02:36. > :02:40.region in general, specifically inflaming sectarian hatred and the
:02:41. > :02:48.splitting amount era people all around the region -- splitting of
:02:49. > :02:53.Arab people. I wanted to talk to you about that today, particularly the
:02:54. > :02:59.sectarian divide. Saudi Arabia is absolutely a part of this issue in
:03:00. > :03:06.the region you, obviously are a Sunni government, a Wahhabi Sunni
:03:07. > :03:10.government and people and you are a key regional player facing and
:03:11. > :03:16.confronting what you insist is a fundamental threat from Shia Iran.
:03:17. > :03:22.Why have you chosen the path of confrontation? We have been
:03:23. > :03:30.specifically in Saudi Arabia, you have mentioned that the majority
:03:31. > :03:40.here are Sunni, but we also have other citizens who follow the Shia
:03:41. > :03:47.Islam. 10-15% of your population is Shia. That's true. And yet you look
:03:48. > :03:51.at the treatment of your Shia population and every independent
:03:52. > :03:56.international human rights group says that the Shia people of this
:03:57. > :04:04.country are oppressed and repressed by your government. That has no
:04:05. > :04:09.basis. Such accusations have no basis. In the kingdom all people are
:04:10. > :04:13.treated equal, all people enjoy the same rights, but we have to remember
:04:14. > :04:22.that Saudi Arabia is a country based on Islam and it has 2 million
:04:23. > :04:35.mosques and therefore, actually, we have two -- two really make sure
:04:36. > :04:45.that everyone actually follows the right Islamic laws. And in reality,
:04:46. > :04:50.the real problem we're facing is coming from outside, not the inside
:04:51. > :04:56.of Saudi Arabia. If you don't face the problem inside, why did you
:04:57. > :04:59.choose to execute 47 people at the beginning of this year, including
:05:00. > :05:08.one of the Shia community's most respected clerics? That was the
:05:09. > :05:14.court sentence. It had to be carried out. The fundamental question is, is
:05:15. > :05:20.it, in your view, a crime punishable by death to call for an end to the
:05:21. > :05:28.rule of the Saud family? That's not the story. What you are saying
:05:29. > :05:34.actually is not what we deal with on the real situation, on the real
:05:35. > :05:38.ground. What is happening, actually, he was leading a terrorist cell and
:05:39. > :05:49.he was no different from the others, actually who were related to
:05:50. > :05:55.ISIL or Al-Qaeda. Do you regret the reputational damage that was done by
:05:56. > :06:01.those executions and particularly his? The United States, for example,
:06:02. > :06:05.released a statement saying it was" Gravely concerned about the
:06:06. > :06:10.execution which risked exacerbating sectarian tensions at a time when
:06:11. > :06:17.they are urgently in need of reduction". In this country we have
:06:18. > :06:24.faced terrorism a lot, and we have suffered from terrorism. And he was
:06:25. > :06:27.responsible for a series of terrorist related crimes that
:06:28. > :06:31.resulted in the death and injury of hundreds of people. Were you
:06:32. > :06:36.surprised by the reaction from the international community? And of
:06:37. > :06:40.course, also from Iran? Because afterwards we saw one of your
:06:41. > :06:44.diplomatic buildings attacked inside Iran and it led to a new low and
:06:45. > :06:49.heightened tension in the relationship between you and
:06:50. > :06:57.Tehran? Iran was actually trying to use the incident, or to use the
:06:58. > :06:59.execution for inflaming more sectarian hatred. But your
:07:00. > :07:07.government must've known that would happen? Well, our government is not
:07:08. > :07:13.going into this, especially when it comes to court sentences of whether
:07:14. > :07:17.it will irritate Iran or not. The law is the law. The law is going to
:07:18. > :07:21.be executed. We will have to comply with the law. Here's what a
:07:22. > :07:25.diplomatic source who doesn't want to be named said to me. He said it
:07:26. > :07:29.was clear what the Saudi 's were doing. They are under enormous
:07:30. > :07:33.pressure right now, economic pressure in particular and they're
:07:34. > :07:37.concerned about the long-term impact of falling oil prices. It could
:07:38. > :07:45.cause real problems at home so they have chosen to ratchet up the
:07:46. > :07:59.nationalist furore with this execution and with the war in Yemen
:08:00. > :08:02.Mac against the Houthis. This is from those who link us to terrorism
:08:03. > :08:07.and insist that we are part of the terrorist problem in the world and
:08:08. > :08:13.sometimes, people accuse us even of being behind ISIL, for example.
:08:14. > :08:17.Well, we will talk about that in a minute. There is a problem of how
:08:18. > :08:22.others actually are viewing Saudi Arabia. There is a perception, you
:08:23. > :08:26.have a major perception problem. It is a major problem but it is not our
:08:27. > :08:30.problem stop quite the thing is, you have to decide how you handle it.
:08:31. > :08:34.Does it make sense for King Salman and his government when you know you
:08:35. > :08:38.have a perception problem to conduct a massive bombing operation in Yemen
:08:39. > :08:48.which is killing hundreds and hundreds of civilians? Is that
:08:49. > :09:01.sensible? Well, actually, let's be clear about this. This has inflamed
:09:02. > :09:07.hatred and it is all over. Your government is behind it. There are
:09:08. > :09:17.the countries who are sponsoring terrorism. They are using terrorism
:09:18. > :09:21.to inflame the sectarian hatred. They are crying that it is best to
:09:22. > :09:26.actually redraw the map of the Middle East based on the sectarian
:09:27. > :09:31.basis. Our country is unified from different people all over the
:09:32. > :09:38.country of Saudi Arabia. From the North, South, East and West. We've
:09:39. > :09:44.are unified in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and we will not allow anybody
:09:45. > :09:49.to endanger that. In the end, this is about the mindset, the culture
:09:50. > :09:54.and indeed, the religious orthodoxy of this country. This country is
:09:55. > :10:00.ruled by a Wahhabi Islamic principle and the Wahhabi principle is that
:10:01. > :10:05.the Shia are not true Muslims. Looks, there is no such Wahhabi
:10:06. > :10:13.principle. Have you looked at the school textbooks here? I came out of
:10:14. > :10:18.this school system come of this education system in this country.
:10:19. > :10:25.They basically indicate that Saudis who are not Sunni are not full, true
:10:26. > :10:35.Saudis. Let me tell you that when we talk about why this am, as you call
:10:36. > :10:38.it -- Wahhabism, it is a peaceful movement that did not promote any
:10:39. > :10:42.type of terrorism. It has been there for more than two centuries and it
:10:43. > :10:47.never produced any kind of terrorism. It only helped with
:10:48. > :10:55.producing this country, which actually provided these people with
:10:56. > :10:59.prosperity and a better future. Let's move onto another case. Raif
:11:00. > :11:03.Badawi. People around the world will remove her that he was the blogger
:11:04. > :11:06.who was very active in talking about politics in this country, he had
:11:07. > :11:12.strong views and put them on the Internet. He was arrested. He was
:11:13. > :11:17.convicted. He was sentenced to 1000 lashings, which by any norm, would
:11:18. > :11:20.be a sentence pretty close to death. Now, is that the kind of
:11:21. > :11:26.message you want to send to the world? Look, the message we want to
:11:27. > :11:31.send to the world is that there are laws in Saudi Arabia. And all the
:11:32. > :11:35.laws in Saudi Arabia are based on the religion of Islam. And people in
:11:36. > :11:42.Saudi Arabia have to comply with the laws before anybody else. Foreigners
:11:43. > :11:48.come in from outside and don't understand that the laws, I could
:11:49. > :11:55.excuse that. But I cannot excuse any Saudi who has been living here, who
:11:56. > :12:00.was born here, because he knows the laws. He knows that these laws are
:12:01. > :12:05.based on the religion. He knows that this is the choice of the majority
:12:06. > :12:10.of the people in Saudi Arabia. So being flogged with 1000 lashes seems
:12:11. > :12:13.to you the right and proper response to a man who has political opinions
:12:14. > :12:21.which don't please the government? I cannot comment on court decisions.
:12:22. > :12:27.Once the court has sentenced somebody for flogging, then that is
:12:28. > :12:36.the sentence. It is not me who did that sentence. But anyway, there are
:12:37. > :12:40.also conditions. When you want to carry out lashings, for example,
:12:41. > :12:45.there are conditions. The UN Commissioner for Human Rights says
:12:46. > :12:49.that blogging is, in my view, a form of cruel and unusual punishment.
:12:50. > :12:56.Such punishment is prohibited under international human rights law.
:12:57. > :13:02.Well, OK. Flogging is part of punishment in Islam. You keep coming
:13:03. > :13:08.back to telling me that this is mandated by Islam. This is the
:13:09. > :13:12.problem. When you look at Saudi Arabia, when you want to evaluate
:13:13. > :13:18.Saudi Arabia and what is going on here, you have to understand Islam.
:13:19. > :13:22.I am saying this because you are telling me that the international
:13:23. > :13:29.community says this or that. Unfortunately, anything that the
:13:30. > :13:33.international community or any position the international community
:13:34. > :13:37.takes which contradicts Islam is not considered in Saudi Arabia. Islam
:13:38. > :13:43.comes first. We come back to conversation we had earlier. A
:13:44. > :13:49.particular brand of Islam, this very, very hard-line Wahhabi Islam,
:13:50. > :13:52.which is in the end, driving the sort of punishment and sentences
:13:53. > :13:59.which we are talking about. Excuse me. You still insist on Wahhabi. I
:14:00. > :14:03.do, let me just quote you the words of one particular man who is the
:14:04. > :14:07.nephew of one of the bombers who last year killed more than 20 people
:14:08. > :14:17.in a bomb attack here in Saudi Arabia. He was and Islamic State
:14:18. > :14:22.militant and his uncle, afterwards said, you know what? My nephew went
:14:23. > :14:27.bad because hard-line preachers here in Saudi Arabia had planted the
:14:28. > :14:37.seeds of hate and violence in my nephew's headed. Euston to find an
:14:38. > :14:41.excuse. Saudi Arabia is made of more than 40 million Muslims -- he is
:14:42. > :14:45.trying. And actually have to add to those about 10 million from outside
:14:46. > :14:50.Saudi Arabia. Do you accept that there are people inside this
:14:51. > :14:53.country, senior clerics, who are preaching hatred and who are
:14:54. > :14:59.fostering an atmosphere in which some young Saudis are eager to join
:15:00. > :15:03.militant groups, including so-called Islamic State?
:15:04. > :15:11.This is criminalised in Saudi Arabia. When someone does this they
:15:12. > :15:16.will be subject to the law. Thanks to Wikileaks, Hillary Clinton in
:15:17. > :15:26.2010-2011, was saying Saudi Arabia was funding, very significantly
:15:27. > :15:32.funding Islamist militant networks around the world. That is still true
:15:33. > :15:38.today, isn't it? There is nobody, no country on earth, is doing actually
:15:39. > :15:43.as much as we do to control our finance, to control lets say the
:15:44. > :15:50.financial system in Saudi Arabia. We are doing more than we are supposed
:15:51. > :15:53.to do -- let's. People in Saudi Arabia are complaining that the
:15:54. > :15:59.government in Saudi Arabia is preventing them from fundraising,
:16:00. > :16:03.from collecting any charity, from doing any help with the country
:16:04. > :16:09.itself, actually. The government has taken responsibility of all of that.
:16:10. > :16:17.How seriously do you take the so-called Islamic State threat
:16:18. > :16:22.inside Saudi today? It is a threat. Just last year actually they
:16:23. > :16:27.committed almost 15 different terrorist crimes in the kingdom,
:16:28. > :16:38.which resulted in more than 65 deaths. Actually, we see ISIS as a
:16:39. > :16:43.front, which was made by those who sponsor terrorism to target Saudi
:16:44. > :16:46.Arabia. But thanks god they are failing, they are failing because we
:16:47. > :16:53.are very much fighting and we are doing our job and the security
:16:54. > :17:00.forces from protecting the country from conspiracy. Do you then except
:17:01. > :17:05.it was a mistake to fund Sunni Islamist terror networks overseas?
:17:06. > :17:14.There is blowback and you fear that blowback at home. We did not find
:17:15. > :17:20.any terrorist organisation. OK, in the early 2000s, or maybe in the
:17:21. > :17:28.last decade actually, there were misuse of our financial system. What
:17:29. > :17:35.do you mean by misuse? People misused it. (CROSSTALK). Tens of
:17:36. > :17:45.billions of dollars provided by the Saudis... Those were individuals,
:17:46. > :17:50.actually, who took advantage of the situation, convinced people,
:17:51. > :17:55.actually, to provide money, thinking that they were providing money for
:17:56. > :17:58.the poor, for the people in need. But unfortunately those people
:17:59. > :18:07.actually used those money to specifically finance Al-Qaeda in
:18:08. > :18:11.Afghanistan. But as soon as we have seen the situation, and we've got
:18:12. > :18:18.the proof that our money was being misused by these people, we have
:18:19. > :18:22.changed things actually. That is a very interesting statement. You are
:18:23. > :18:27.now acknowledging that significant, we can, frankly, frankly, tens of
:18:28. > :18:32.billions of dollars, over years, has been misused and has gone to fund
:18:33. > :18:37.and help Al-Qaeda. -- frankly. People took advantage of the
:18:38. > :18:44.situation. Usually, in any country, if people want to define charity, --
:18:45. > :18:48.provide charity, no one can say no. Usually people want to provide
:18:49. > :18:52.charity in order to help poor people, specifically poor
:18:53. > :18:56.Muslims... Generally, people don't provide charity to those who declare
:18:57. > :19:02.war on the West. Our financial system, actually, was misused, long
:19:03. > :19:07.before any terrorist organisation existed. I think this is why there
:19:08. > :19:12.is so much suspicion of Saudi Arabia today. In your greatest, most
:19:13. > :19:16.staunch ally and supporter, the United States, you are very reliant
:19:17. > :19:21.on military support from the US and all sorts of intelligence support.
:19:22. > :19:24.But this is what a very senior recently retired State Department
:19:25. > :19:27.official Daryl Benjamin says, a solid line of causation from the
:19:28. > :19:32.slaughter in Islamic State control the Iraq and Syria goes to the
:19:33. > :19:40.tragedy of 9/11 and it traces back directly to Saudi and
:19:41. > :19:46.evangelisation, by which he means evangelism, through Sunni networks,
:19:47. > :19:49.and the radical mosques and extremist NGOs that was born in that
:19:50. > :19:56.relationship. The Americans now see you as part of the problem. Whoever
:19:57. > :20:00.thinks we are part of a problem that means that they are not really
:20:01. > :20:07.looking deep into the real problem. It is very simple just to accuse
:20:08. > :20:13.Saudi Arabia off, you know, terrorist related activities or
:20:14. > :20:17.sponsoring, which is not true -- of. We are being threatened by this
:20:18. > :20:23.terrorism and we are targeted by this terrorism. And how we could in
:20:24. > :20:27.any way help the rise of such a terrorist organisation, when we know
:20:28. > :20:31.that these people will just target us, that is nonsense, actually.
:20:32. > :20:37.Saudi Arabia never sponsored any terrorist groups or financed any
:20:38. > :20:40.terrorist groups. A final thought. We began by talking about the
:20:41. > :20:45.difficult Situ and today, the turbulent region. Do you fear that
:20:46. > :20:52.even if you don't mean it to happen, the Saudi Arabian stamp in Yemen for
:20:53. > :20:59.example, or in Syria, is maybe, inadvertently, fuelling the fires of
:21:00. > :21:05.Islamist militancy extremism and terror? -- situation today. We will
:21:06. > :21:12.not stand still, looking at all of these dangerous situations around
:21:13. > :21:18.us, and seeing how people are playing around in the region, and
:21:19. > :21:23.not protecting our country. We agree that ISIL, Al-Qaeda, all of these
:21:24. > :21:28.terrorist groups, and of those, actually, who sponsor terrorists and
:21:29. > :21:34.their allies, are targeting us. And we are no exception in the region.
:21:35. > :21:39.And we are not immune in any way from the problems that is actually
:21:40. > :21:46.spreading in the region. So, we cannot just wait and watch these
:21:47. > :21:53.people doing all of this and do nothing. We have a responsibility to
:21:54. > :22:00.carry out... We have a unity that we have to defend. And, therefore,
:22:01. > :22:04.actually, the kingdom, actually, have developed all of the laws,
:22:05. > :22:11.actually, to carry out our responsibilities. What we want from
:22:12. > :22:16.the others, actually, not just to jump and accused Saudi Arabia
:22:17. > :22:24.because of somebody from Saudi Arabia did so, or because Saudi
:22:25. > :22:30.Arabia is an Islamic country. We are Islamic and we will always be is
:22:31. > :22:35.running. But this doesn't constitute any kind of threat to anybody -- we
:22:36. > :22:41.will always be Islamic. The reality we have to look at the real problem
:22:42. > :22:47.in the region and see, actually, why we would do so. I mean, look at the
:22:48. > :22:51.other countries who did nothing. Now, they cannot help themselves. I
:22:52. > :22:55.mean, look at the sectarian problem in Iraq, for example. Look at the
:22:56. > :23:01.situation in Syria, or even the situation in Yemen. We are not going
:23:02. > :23:04.to wait until we find out ourselves, actually, in the same position. And
:23:05. > :23:08.you feel that could happen if you don't act the way you have acted.
:23:09. > :23:13.You fear that this country could sink into sectarian warfare? If we
:23:14. > :23:18.do not protect the country, if we do not counter all this ideology, if we
:23:19. > :23:26.do not count all this terrorism, of course, we will. -- count a. The
:23:27. > :23:27.idea is to carry out our responsibility, have the
:23:28. > :23:34.responsibility to achieve, which is what we are doing. And in
:23:35. > :23:38.particular, let remind you of something, we are major players when
:23:39. > :23:45.it comes to the international community -- let me remind you. And
:23:46. > :23:49.countering terrorism. We are very active in the counter ISIL finance
:23:50. > :23:58.group. We have provided information that saved lives in other countries.
:23:59. > :24:04.So, we're not just carrying out our responsibilities inside the kingdom.
:24:05. > :24:07.Whenever we have something to do to help in the international community
:24:08. > :24:13.effort, we are not hesitating. We have to end it there. But General
:24:14. > :24:17.Mansour Al-Turki, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank
:24:18. > :24:42.you. You are welcome in Saudi Arabia.
:24:43. > :24:44.As I speak, Storm Henry is passing to the north of Scotland.
:24:45. > :24:46.The winds potentially remaining disruptive throughout the morning
:24:47. > :24:50.rush hour, the Met Office still has an amber wind be prepared warning in
:24:51. > :24:54.force for gusts of 60mph or 70mph, maybe 80mph, possibly a little more