Iyad Ameen Madani

:00:00. > :00:00.in Muslim countries, and acts of terror committed across the world,

:00:00. > :00:23.how worried easy that all Muslims are getting a bad name? -- is he.

:00:24. > :00:30.Secretary General Iyad Ameen Madani, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very

:00:31. > :00:35.much for having me. As leader of the world's only pan Islamic

:00:36. > :00:41.organisation, you must be extremely worried when you look around the

:00:42. > :00:49.world and you see constantly acts of terror being committed by Muslims.

:00:50. > :00:56.You must be having sleepless nights. Well, we all worry about terrorism.

:00:57. > :01:01.Our position in the OIC is that terrorism has no religion, no

:01:02. > :01:11.ethnicity, no gender. We don't think of terror as necessarily Islamic or

:01:12. > :01:17.a cause and effect with Islam. I didn't say there was a link between

:01:18. > :01:22.Islam and acts of terror but you must accept that when you look

:01:23. > :01:27.around the world, Europe, France, Burkina Faso in Africa, Indonesia in

:01:28. > :01:31.Asia, the Arab world, Libya, wherever you look there are terrible

:01:32. > :01:41.deeds, acts of terror, committed by Muslims. Well, it is always more

:01:42. > :01:46.useful to speak specifically. Let's talk about Iraq, for example. I was

:01:47. > :01:55.at a place that you mentioned, as you said, were acts of violence are

:01:56. > :02:01.taking place, where other religious groups were. Iraq was invaded. All

:02:02. > :02:08.the institutions in Iraq were dismantled, the army, bureaucracy

:02:09. > :02:11.and security forces. Discourses of sectarianism were encouraged.

:02:12. > :02:17.Everyone was identified as Sunni, Shia, Kurdish or Arab. It was a

:02:18. > :02:24.process of modernisation, exclusion. We created an environment that

:02:25. > :02:29.almost invited violence. Because people found violence as a way to

:02:30. > :02:35.get back. I think we should understand every location within its

:02:36. > :02:40.own context. Just picking up Iraq, which you have mentioned. The Iraqi

:02:41. > :02:45.Prime Minister Haidar al-Abadi said last year, if what you have said is

:02:46. > :02:50.true, we need an explanation, he says, why there are so many

:02:51. > :02:56.terrorists from Saudi Arabia, the Gulf, Egypt, European countries. He

:02:57. > :03:02.is right, isn't he? Why are they there and what attracts them? If you

:03:03. > :03:05.say it is a failure of lack of institutions. He himself is

:03:06. > :03:10.questioning that hypothesis and saying that if that is the case then

:03:11. > :03:16.why do you have acts of terror committed in European countries or

:03:17. > :03:21.by non- Iraqis? We have to put this in a wider context. Ever since the

:03:22. > :03:30.end of the Cold War there has been strong voices in many other

:03:31. > :03:38.countries outside of the OIC member states who have done their best to

:03:39. > :03:48.picture Islam and Muslims as the new other, the new opponent, so to

:03:49. > :03:52.speak. Red was no longer the colour that is one of danger but it has

:03:53. > :04:00.become green and we see this in many of the political... That being the

:04:01. > :04:05.colour of Islam. When there is an area of conflict, like Iraq, more so

:04:06. > :04:11.in Syria, where the whole country is being destroyed, because the

:04:12. > :04:15.international community sort of had a cold drink and a comfortable seat

:04:16. > :04:23.and watched while the country destroyed itself, that started as a

:04:24. > :04:30.very peaceful demonstration asking for a better life. When you create

:04:31. > :04:38.that environment and when you put the context of struggle between two

:04:39. > :04:42.backsides, when you put a clash of civilisations, you end up attracting

:04:43. > :04:50.people who either come because they believe they can get back by taking

:04:51. > :04:57.part in Iraq -- two sides. Whitey UKIP Eagle Farm Chechnya? Why don't

:04:58. > :05:01.you answer that question? -- why don't we talk about people from

:05:02. > :05:06.Chechnya? The wider point made here is that you've got Muslims who are

:05:07. > :05:10.Europeans committing acts of terror in Europe. You've got Muslims who

:05:11. > :05:15.are Indonesian committing acts of terror in Indonesia. Wherever you

:05:16. > :05:20.look in the Muslim world, and it is not sufficient to just point to the

:05:21. > :05:26.failure to intervene in countries of conflict, as the reason why you are

:05:27. > :05:30.seeing this. Well, but I think what you said is partial. If you can look

:05:31. > :05:36.at any country there are groups of people who are committing violence.

:05:37. > :05:40.But now we have decided to call some sorts of violence terror and other

:05:41. > :05:47.sorts of violence as misguided individuals. Individuals with some

:05:48. > :05:52.psychological problems, or they were mistreated by their parents or by

:05:53. > :05:57.their schoolmates or this or that. If you just account for all the acts

:05:58. > :06:02.of violence that a country like the United States has seen, you will

:06:03. > :06:07.find that statistically, those committed by Muslims are really a

:06:08. > :06:10.fraction of those acts of violence. But we have decided to call those

:06:11. > :06:17.acts of terror and the other is individual acts. That is the case,

:06:18. > :06:21.however, isn't it? I will tell you what President Obama said in

:06:22. > :06:24.December. He said you cannot deny the fact that an extremist ideology

:06:25. > :06:29.has spread within some Muslim communities. I put it to you with

:06:30. > :06:35.all respect that it sounds as though you are denying that. I am denying

:06:36. > :06:44.associating terror with Muslims or Muslim communities. I think the air

:06:45. > :06:52.we make here when we analyse terror that has something to do with a

:06:53. > :06:56.religion -- error we make. Isn't it the case... If Muslims are

:06:57. > :07:01.committing acts of terror and they are describing themselves as

:07:02. > :07:07.Muslims, acting within their own warped idea of Islam, you cannot

:07:08. > :07:10.then, as head of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, which

:07:11. > :07:14.represents all of the Muslim countries of the world, say that

:07:15. > :07:19.these people have nothing to do with us, nothing to do with Islam. They

:07:20. > :07:24.define themselves as Muslims. What I am saying is we have to understand

:07:25. > :07:28.the context. If we are to face up to this phenomena, which concerns all

:07:29. > :07:33.of us, regardless of what religion or non- religion we believe in, we

:07:34. > :07:38.have to understand context. What is the social context, what is the

:07:39. > :07:42.economic root causes, what is the environment that creates such a

:07:43. > :07:48.situation. If I may go to another geographical area. If you go to Boko

:07:49. > :07:54.Haram in Nigeria, if you visit the north-east of Nigeria, where Boko

:07:55. > :07:58.Haram's stronghold is, you will find high level of unemployment, young

:07:59. > :08:03.people drifting in the streets, with no sense of their worth, with an

:08:04. > :08:11.omission, with no future to look at. They end up either as addicts, drug

:08:12. > :08:17.addicts -- with no mission. More petty criminals. Or, certainly, they

:08:18. > :08:20.are given this message of active recruitment which gives them a sense

:08:21. > :08:25.of themselves and a sense of what they are. Poverty is one reason you

:08:26. > :08:32.are saying. And unemployment. And social marginalisation. Everybody

:08:33. > :08:37.who is socially marginalised, is poor or unemployed, you are trying

:08:38. > :08:40.to explain to some extent, excuse those acts of terror, killing other

:08:41. > :08:46.people, usually who are as poor as themselves? That sounds like what

:08:47. > :08:55.you are trying to do. No, but usually such acts also harm such

:08:56. > :08:58.community. If you go back to Los Angeles, if you recall those big

:08:59. > :09:04.demonstrations, one of the first of the United States has witnessed in

:09:05. > :09:10.Los Angeles, the first damage was the areas where Afro-Americans

:09:11. > :09:15.lived. They took their van at all their own community first because

:09:16. > :09:24.this is what is in front of them -- they took their menace. What I am

:09:25. > :09:27.saying is terrorism has no religion. Terrorism is against all believers

:09:28. > :09:32.in whatever religion and community. You say that but then use a look at

:09:33. > :09:37.northern Nigeria. You are talking about poverty. There are some very

:09:38. > :09:42.rich terrorists. Osama Bin Laden came from one of the richest

:09:43. > :09:46.countries. His successor, from Al-Qaeda, is an Egyptian

:09:47. > :09:50.paediatrician. These are educated, not marginalised, people. So, what

:09:51. > :09:54.you say really cannot hold as explanation as to why some people

:09:55. > :10:10.turn to terror. Osama Bin Laden started in the Afghani and

:10:11. > :10:13.Mujahaddin war. The United States supported that war and many others.

:10:14. > :10:20.Once the Soviets withdraw, decided to withdraw, they forgot these

:10:21. > :10:24.Mujahaddin that we encouraged and applauded. We did not do any post-

:10:25. > :10:29.conflict management. We left them on their own and then we blamed

:10:30. > :10:34.others... People like Osama Bin Laden. He is to be blamed. You blame

:10:35. > :10:40.outside forces all the time. Your mission is to safeguard Islam.

:10:41. > :10:46.President Rouhani said it is Alli greatest duty to correct the image

:10:47. > :10:51.of Islam in world public opinion -- our greatest duty. He says the image

:10:52. > :10:58.of Islam has become tarnished. Is he right or wrong? It is not a beauty

:10:59. > :11:01.contest. I am a Muslim and as Muslims we are there to convince

:11:02. > :11:07.anybody that we are good people. Muslims represent a quarter of the

:11:08. > :11:13.planet population. There are millions upon millions of Muslims

:11:14. > :11:18.who are doctors and engineers and students and good citizens and

:11:19. > :11:23.whatever... Of course, the vast majority, of course. So, we cannot

:11:24. > :11:27.just put a label on the quarter of the planet population. Of course I

:11:28. > :11:34.was not, but that tiny minority's wrecking it for everybody else. Use

:11:35. > :11:37.the incidence of Islamophobia have really increase. I don't have to

:11:38. > :11:41.quote opinion polls. You know it is a factor that Muslims were ever feel

:11:42. > :11:49.that the name has been hijacked by their small minority who have their

:11:50. > :11:52.warped ideology. And you need to understand and accept that and do

:11:53. > :11:56.not say it is the fault of outside forces. I did not say it was the

:11:57. > :12:03.fault of Al-Qaeda forces but we have to understand context. Secondly,

:12:04. > :12:10.another recent -- outside forces. You have that hijack. Those who

:12:11. > :12:13.claim is Islamic legitimacy to their cause, it is certainly the

:12:14. > :12:19.responsibility of Muslims spot for anyone else, to prove these people

:12:20. > :12:23.wrong. -- the responsibility of Muslims, before anyone else, to

:12:24. > :12:25.prove these people wrong. From a public relation campaign, this is

:12:26. > :12:31.different from saying that we are nice, please, we move into the house

:12:32. > :12:35.next door to you. You need to do something fast. You have Donald

:12:36. > :12:39.Trump, a presidential contender in the US, a leading one, saying, close

:12:40. > :12:43.the door and ban Muslims going into the US and those who are US

:12:44. > :12:48.citizens, have surveillance of them. That kind of opinion is quite

:12:49. > :12:52.popular with vast numbers in the population. Mr Trump has said many

:12:53. > :12:56.things. He also wants to build a nice view the full wall across the

:12:57. > :13:02.borders of Mexico. -- beautiful. He wants to hold the keys to the gates.

:13:03. > :13:06.You know it is the constituents of Mr Trump who have to judge him. Have

:13:07. > :13:11.you written to him and said it is not right that you should whip up

:13:12. > :13:15.this anti- Muslim fervour because that is what he is doing? He is a

:13:16. > :13:21.candidate and they normally say many wild things and we leave it to his

:13:22. > :13:27.constituencies to judge him. For those who have lived in the USA

:13:28. > :13:30.students... US educated. -- in the US as students. We believe this is a

:13:31. > :13:37.great country with great people and great values. We think that Mr Trump

:13:38. > :13:41.will be just another bubble... We focus very much inevitably as the

:13:42. > :13:44.media often does on acts of terror committed globally in Europe, be it

:13:45. > :13:50.in Paris or whatever, but the fact of the matter is Muslims are killing

:13:51. > :13:56.other Muslims. The vast majority of the victims of acts of terror,

:13:57. > :14:00.wherever they are, Libya, Iraq, Syria are Muslims. 90 -95% of the

:14:01. > :14:01.victims are Muslims. That is something that must make you

:14:02. > :14:14.despair. Aren't you despairing? What about

:14:15. > :14:22.the Muslims being killed by Palestinians or it is really is? You

:14:23. > :14:28.are the leader of that organisation. -- Israelis. People within your

:14:29. > :14:34.organisation are killing and is stopping Yeminis killing Yeminis.

:14:35. > :14:41.Libyans killing Libyans. I could go on and on. That is lamentable. That

:14:42. > :14:45.there are many different contradictory things. Libya, the

:14:46. > :14:58.Muslim world is not just this region. It is from Indonesia to the

:14:59. > :15:05.West. In Bangladesh you have Muslims killing... Why is Libya

:15:06. > :15:19.disintegrating right now? You are going to say it is because of

:15:20. > :15:26.Gaddafi. Wet weather reins it in. In exactly the same way we send horses

:15:27. > :15:32.to celebrate the birthday of the Emperor of Ekene fasts us. -- We

:15:33. > :15:39.tolerate. Week he did for him. -- Burkina Faso. That is why it Libyans

:15:40. > :15:45.are killing other Libyans? This is why it is disintegrating. There were

:15:46. > :15:50.no institutions. You decided to get rid of him. You did not listen to

:15:51. > :15:57.the African initiative that was pushed forward by African leaders to

:15:58. > :16:10.find a solution for that they now the country disintegrated. -- that.

:16:11. > :16:17.That is the context. A country that sold mountains Oliver Letwin. You

:16:18. > :16:23.are blaming the outside world again. -- of weapons stop eye and not

:16:24. > :16:28.blaming anybody. Most of the prime ministers of these countries are

:16:29. > :16:35.going around selling arms. -- I am not. When the United States goes

:16:36. > :16:45.into a war there is a war economy. If one plane is destroyed factories

:16:46. > :16:49.make another one. There is a war wealth. When a country loses arms

:16:50. > :16:55.they need another one. I will bring you back to Muslims killing Muslims

:16:56. > :17:02.extremists killing others. Not what you say. What about the fact that we

:17:03. > :17:09.now say... Libya is uniformly Sunni, so I won't talk about the Sunni-Shia

:17:10. > :17:16.divide. Now, we are seeing there is a religious divide between Sunni and

:17:17. > :17:31.Shias manifested in a dreadful rivalry with Saudi Arabia, the Sunni

:17:32. > :17:36.state against the Shia state. It is a political conflict we are

:17:37. > :17:43.witnessing. Not a Shia Sunni conflict. What is happening is a

:17:44. > :17:49.clash of political influence. This is where the OIC comes in, to find a

:17:50. > :17:57.new paradigms that will define the problem. We see the world

:17:58. > :18:02.normalising relations with Iran. Would you push for better relations

:18:03. > :18:10.with Saudi Arabia and Iran. The world is happy they can sign more

:18:11. > :18:14.contracts in Iran. With Myanmar, in spite of the atrocities... But

:18:15. > :18:21.shouldn't you... We are actively working and promoting the absolute

:18:22. > :18:26.necessity for a paradigms in this region. We don't want this region to

:18:27. > :18:32.be a liability and burden of the Muslim worlds of -- last of the we

:18:33. > :18:43.share the neighbourhood, the religion. -- world. They share the

:18:44. > :18:46.same national resources. If you are going to consolidate the bonds

:18:47. > :18:52.between member states, as your mission statement says, why did you

:18:53. > :18:59.recently stay in your communique that you condemned Iran for meddling

:19:00. > :19:04.in the affairs of Yemen, Somalia, Syria... -- say. You condemned them

:19:05. > :19:11.for that. It is not them, it is the foreign ministers that agreed to see

:19:12. > :19:18.this. It was not a statement initiated by the body of the OIC. --

:19:19. > :19:27.say. But it does prefer a rapprochement. Yet. We communicated

:19:28. > :19:35.to condemn the breaking into the diplomatic offices. After the

:19:36. > :19:42.execution of Sheikh Nimr. And some found that that should be expanded

:19:43. > :19:47.to look into their domestic stage... There are other items in

:19:48. > :19:52.the community that are calling for such a rapprochement. A political

:19:53. > :19:55.process. You talk about the need to solve conflicts in countries like

:19:56. > :20:04.Syria and Iraq. Saudi Arabia announced in December that they want

:20:05. > :20:07.everybody to come into a fight against terrorism. It isn't getting

:20:08. > :20:12.traction. Shouldn't the OIC be doing more to say it is the role of Muslim

:20:13. > :20:21.states, their responsibility, to give troops and money, whatever, to

:20:22. > :20:27.stop the conflict. In 1990 the OIC was the first organisation to agree

:20:28. > :20:35.to go against terrorism. A code of conduct that commits its member

:20:36. > :20:39.states. So, the OIC, as an international organisation and body,

:20:40. > :20:47.we have recognised this threat and have agreed to a structure of how to

:20:48. > :20:56.deal with that. Wasn't the idea to get everybody to act together? We

:20:57. > :21:05.are involved in economic development. Outreach programmes.

:21:06. > :21:11.Humanitarian programmes. Encouraging signs and technology. We have a

:21:12. > :21:17.summit is just on technology. -- science. Why aren't the rich

:21:18. > :21:25.countries doing more to take in Syrian refugees? The golf states

:21:26. > :21:33.could do more. Other Muslim states. These are Muslim refugees. -- Gulf

:21:34. > :21:42.states. We have a number of series and accepted that live in their

:21:43. > :21:50.countries. -- Syrians. But the bulk of the Syrian refugees lived in the

:21:51. > :21:53.neighbouring countries. I think the question of Syrian refugees is

:21:54. > :21:59.important, especially with a European context. But the solution

:22:00. > :22:05.is not to think about those who have arrived at the doors of Europe, it

:22:06. > :22:09.is to address the conflict itself. Syrians did not go to Scandinavia

:22:10. > :22:13.because they enjoy the cold weather, it is because they want to live. But

:22:14. > :22:18.why can't they go to Malaysia, Indonesia, you name it, one of the

:22:19. > :22:25.57 was in countries... As you know, human trafficking across the

:22:26. > :22:31.Mediterranean... -- Muslim. It has been going on for years now. We have

:22:32. > :22:38.seen the attacks of women in Cologne in Germany, Muslims I getting a bad

:22:39. > :22:44.name and you need to act together to tackle that. -- are. We do. But you

:22:45. > :22:47.also have to understand, and I am sure he did, a thousand times better

:22:48. > :22:56.than I do, the political terrain in Europe. All these divided groups who

:22:57. > :23:04.have anger. And the way to express their anger is with Muslims. It was

:23:05. > :23:09.immigrants and now it is Muslims. They want to use Muslims and

:23:10. > :23:14.refugees as part of a political agenda. Secretary General, thank you

:23:15. > :23:46.for coming on this programme. Thank you.

:23:47. > :23:50.The wildest of the conditions on Tuesday were brought to you

:23:51. > :23:54.by Storm Henry, which has pushed its way to the near continent.