:00:00. > :00:10.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:11. > :00:18.Welcome to HARDtalk with Zeinab Badawi from the Saudi Arabians city
:00:19. > :00:26.of Jeddah. My guest is Saudi businesswoman Rasha Hefzi. She is
:00:27. > :00:32.one of 21 women who was elected to a municipal council in Saudi Arabia in
:00:33. > :00:35.what were seen -- in what was seen as a huge step forward for women.
:00:36. > :00:55.But was it? Rasha Hefzi, welcome to HARDtalk.
:00:56. > :00:59.Thank you. History was made in Saudi Arabia in December last year when
:01:00. > :01:03.women were allowed to stand and vote in elections for the first time
:01:04. > :01:14.ever. How can you be sure that represents progress? Well, as you
:01:15. > :01:18.said, this was the first time for women to take a decision by being a
:01:19. > :01:24.voter and candidate. It was the first time for us to carry the load
:01:25. > :01:30.of our city, Jeddah. So yes, it is history being made by women and
:01:31. > :01:35.everybody. How are you finding it serving on the council in Jeddah?
:01:36. > :01:41.You have had some problems, haven't you? It is very challenging. Saudi
:01:42. > :01:44.Arabia is a very complicated society. You have people from
:01:45. > :01:49.different backgrounds, schools of thought and ideologies and trying to
:01:50. > :01:55.compromise and just have a common ground with all these counsellors
:01:56. > :01:58.with you in the Council, and representing the problems of your
:01:59. > :02:04.city is really challenging. Albright. So you another counsellor
:02:05. > :02:08.here in Jeddah, the idea was that you attended the monthly council
:02:09. > :02:13.meetings where everybody gets together but you have to sit behind
:02:14. > :02:18.an opaque glass panel. You and your partner refused to do so and said,
:02:19. > :02:22.no, we want to sit at the table with our fellow male counsellors and some
:02:23. > :02:28.of the men refused and it caused a huge problem. Briefly describe what
:02:29. > :02:35.happened? Let me first talk about the table come out why we all sit at
:02:36. > :02:39.one table. It represents that we are all sharing the decision, we are
:02:40. > :02:43.sharing representation of the public and the citizens and we know that if
:02:44. > :02:46.we don't sit at one table, we won't be able to share in the decision, or
:02:47. > :02:53.share everything else like the workshops, and field visits, meeting
:02:54. > :02:58.stakeholders and citizens. As you know, and as I mentioned, Saudi
:02:59. > :03:01.Arabia is a very diverse society and some people have issues in
:03:02. > :03:06.understanding why it is important for women to be with them at the
:03:07. > :03:11.same table. Maybe they see this is not except the bolt to them, so we
:03:12. > :03:16.do accept that, but of course we have to let our voice be heard and
:03:17. > :03:19.represent our point of view. You are not worried? Because you have
:03:20. > :03:25.actually received anonymous death threats for wanting to sit at the
:03:26. > :03:29.tame table -- same table. It's not true. We received rejections from
:03:30. > :03:33.people that say they think we should not sit at one table and that is
:03:34. > :03:37.their point of view. From different cities from the Kingdom, but there
:03:38. > :03:43.were no threats. You have not had any opposition? No. Anonymously or
:03:44. > :03:50.otherwise? Opposition, yes? People were expressing their point of
:03:51. > :03:54.view. And how did they do that? They think it is against the norm and
:03:55. > :03:58.this is not how we should do meetings. They were mentioning that
:03:59. > :04:02.in every other government entity, there is zero segregation between
:04:03. > :04:07.men and women and they think they should be applied in all government
:04:08. > :04:11.entities like the council 's. And do you reply to these criticisms? Of
:04:12. > :04:17.course. We are following the government statements and you can
:04:18. > :04:22.see all of the counsellors, men and women, are sitting together in one
:04:23. > :04:27.room. That is the advisory board to the government. Yes. That his
:04:28. > :04:29.appointment only. Absolutely. I will just give you one example of a
:04:30. > :04:34.conservative Saudi voter in the elections in December. Standing
:04:35. > :04:38.outside a polling station in the capital, Riyadh, he was quoted by
:04:39. > :04:45.the Associated Press by saying, women's role is at home raising a
:04:46. > :04:49.family. If we allow the house to to do such business, who is going to
:04:50. > :04:54.take care of my son 's? I assume he has no daughters, but anyway. That
:04:55. > :04:58.is a perspective and a point of view and we respect that because he
:04:59. > :05:02.represents a big portion of society. At the end of the day, you have the
:05:03. > :05:11.majority, the minority, who are affecting the decision. A big ratio
:05:12. > :05:16.of society or the biggest? A big ratio. Not the biggest? I don't have
:05:17. > :05:19.the numbers, there is no accurate study on this. Why do you think
:05:20. > :05:23.there is a big section of society, although you don't have any idea how
:05:24. > :05:27.many, who are opposed to women having such a public role? Because
:05:28. > :05:33.there are many Muslim countries all over the world where you have had
:05:34. > :05:36.women in positions of power? Benazir Bhutto in Pakistan, the Prime
:05:37. > :05:41.Minister of Bangladesh, we have had a woman president in Indonesia. All
:05:42. > :05:48.over the Muslim world you do see women in very powerful positions.
:05:49. > :05:53.The most powerful positions. But not in Saudi Arabia. Not politically.
:05:54. > :05:58.Yeah. We are still in the stages of development with these women to hold
:05:59. > :06:01.such positions. We have the step of appointing a woman in the advisory
:06:02. > :06:08.Council, we had the first vice president of the board in the
:06:09. > :06:13.Chamber of Commerce. And we do now have a culture and commercial cachet
:06:14. > :06:17.although I'm not sure of the name. But what I'm trying to say, what we
:06:18. > :06:24.are facing right now is a blend between the misinterpretation of
:06:25. > :06:32.religion and the norm. Or, let's say the culture background. Segregation
:06:33. > :06:36.will affect the perspective of women's participation in public
:06:37. > :06:39.life. What you mean about the misinterpretation of religion? You
:06:40. > :06:45.mean that there is a very conservative form of Islam here in
:06:46. > :06:54.Saudi Arabia? Wahabi Islam? Which is the more puritanical form, more so
:06:55. > :07:00.than you seen other countries? I'm not to talk about Wahabi is some,
:07:01. > :07:07.let's talk about driving which has been rejected by a large subsection
:07:08. > :07:13.of society. Many supported two are not extremists, who are not
:07:14. > :07:16.conservative. Much of the time it can be a cultural norm, a cultural
:07:17. > :07:26.understanding or have it. At the same time, we may be misinterpreting
:07:27. > :07:34.parts of the Koran based on the way they were raised. The issue of
:07:35. > :07:37.driving is often seen in the international arena as a very good
:07:38. > :07:43.example of why women are discriminated against in Saudi
:07:44. > :07:55.Arabia. And it is baffling, isn't it, that a woman cannot drive? I
:07:56. > :08:01.think we have a very strict government. In not letting you
:08:02. > :08:05.drive? I think we have to consider the ability of society to consider
:08:06. > :08:12.it. There's nothing in the law against it, but the readiness of
:08:13. > :08:16.society will play a key role in implementing that decision. A woman
:08:17. > :08:21.driving has been accepted by a ratio of society, I don't also have an
:08:22. > :08:27.accurate number for this, but also by a big ratio society. I think we
:08:28. > :08:32.are ready and the government should follow suit. Any idea when that
:08:33. > :08:35.might be? I don't know, really. Sometimes you see things moving very
:08:36. > :08:42.fast and some parts are taking a longer time. Maybe we are moving
:08:43. > :08:45.slowly but surely. But on this issue of driving, I want to turn it
:08:46. > :08:48.slightly on its head because it is a focus point for many people when it
:08:49. > :08:52.comes to talk about women's rights but frankly, is it the most
:08:53. > :08:59.important issue for many women in Saudi Arabia? A lot of them cannot
:09:00. > :09:05.even afford to purchase a car. Yes, driving is a very important issue.
:09:06. > :09:09.Even if you are a businesswoman. It is? Of course. If you have lots of
:09:10. > :09:16.appointments and meetings and so on, it is an important issue. We have
:09:17. > :09:20.many issues on the table and driving is one of them. I cannot say which
:09:21. > :09:24.one is the priority. But it is a concern of the lead to, however
:09:25. > :09:32.wealthy they might be. A survey conducted in 2014 by a charitable
:09:33. > :09:35.foundation looking at poverty, particularly in female-headed
:09:36. > :09:39.households, found that nearly 59% of underprivileged Saudi women live in
:09:40. > :09:44.dilapidated homes and they often support households with a monthly
:09:45. > :09:51.income of about 400 US dollars a month. And they have very little
:09:52. > :09:56.means of trying to support themselves. This is a priority to
:09:57. > :10:01.me. I am fighting for women's issues in low income neighbourhoods for
:10:02. > :10:06.people who have no education, no jobs. That is a priority to me. And
:10:07. > :10:13.I am sure driving is a priority for other ladies. The charity said the
:10:14. > :10:18.poor economic conditions of these women they surveyed, across 13
:10:19. > :10:21.regions of Saudi Arabia, shows that they need financial support from the
:10:22. > :10:26.country's social insurance scheme to live decently. They said the main
:10:27. > :10:30.issues are illiteracy, unemployment and the absence of relatives to
:10:31. > :10:34.support them. Absolutely. We hear lots about driving but not about
:10:35. > :10:38.these women. Absolutely and that is what I'm telling you. So much of the
:10:39. > :10:49.focus is on driving but we want our voices to be heard on other issues.
:10:50. > :10:53.Access to healthcare? Welfare, education, women in politics. Are
:10:54. > :10:58.the Saudi women ready to enter into politics? They need this kind of
:10:59. > :11:03.readiness and knowledge transfer and that is very important fight. Do you
:11:04. > :11:08.think women in Arabia are holding them back, to some extent? I will
:11:09. > :11:12.give you another example, the fact that women in Saudi Arabia cannot
:11:13. > :11:19.travel without either the permission or presence of a male relative. But
:11:20. > :11:25.an education Ministry spokesperson says, as a Saudi woman, I demand to
:11:26. > :11:28.have a guardian. My work necessitates go into different areas
:11:29. > :11:31.of Saudi Arabia and I always bring my husband or my brother. That
:11:32. > :11:42.his/her personal opinion. Is issue has been discussed also. Also in
:11:43. > :11:45.Islam, a guardian is usually with a woman who needs one but if I am a
:11:46. > :11:50.businesswoman and I'm travelling all around, why do I need a guardian? Do
:11:51. > :11:58.you think perhaps women are colluding their own repression, in a
:11:59. > :12:04.way, because they themselves will accept restrictions like that? Know,
:12:05. > :12:21.as I said, it is just the way they understand Islam and him except the
:12:22. > :12:26.Sharia with civic law -- mix up. There is a very high literacy rate
:12:27. > :12:29.with Saudi women, 90% of them are educated in their masters degrees
:12:30. > :12:34.and PhD 's but they only form 18% of the workforce in Saudi Arabia. There
:12:35. > :12:40.many degrees sitting at home just looking after the household which
:12:41. > :12:46.seems a bit of a waste. It is not only Saudi women, it is also Saudi
:12:47. > :12:51.men. We have been discussing, one of the development funds we have been
:12:52. > :12:54.working on for so long is the difference between education level
:12:55. > :12:58.than market needs. One of the options is to open different
:12:59. > :13:06.education centres for women in different fields. But do you think
:13:07. > :13:13.that, with women being restricted in the kind of workplace that they can
:13:14. > :13:18.occupy and so on, and the need for segregation, that that really does
:13:19. > :13:22.act like a constraint? Segregation in public places and government
:13:23. > :13:25.offices is not an issue. We have been living with this for so long
:13:26. > :13:30.and we have been working and there is no problem. And it's acceptable?
:13:31. > :13:35.You are happy being separate? You want to be equal but separate is OK?
:13:36. > :13:40.Separation is not the issue. At the end of the day, it is your work to
:13:41. > :13:43.be done. If it was an obstacle to me getting my work done, it would be
:13:44. > :13:48.difficult but if I can execute my work and get results, there is no
:13:49. > :13:51.problem with segregation. When we talk about separation and
:13:52. > :13:58.segregation, you have to study and see the readiness of society to
:13:59. > :14:06.change that. So you believe, for example, there has been some talk of
:14:07. > :14:11.women being equal but perhaps they have to just operate in their own
:14:12. > :14:12.separate space? This idea being equal but separate is the way
:14:13. > :14:24.forward for Saudi women? Is It is not an example for
:14:25. > :14:28.everything. In some areas, separation is acceptable, but in
:14:29. > :14:31.some areas like healthcare businesses, you cannot have
:14:32. > :14:38.segregation or separation. It depends on the field, the city, the
:14:39. > :14:43.segregation in society itself in the workforce. When she says out of
:14:44. > :14:48.respect for our committee and culture, women have to be in their
:14:49. > :14:52.private space, and she advocates for women gaining skills so they can
:14:53. > :14:57.provide services to other women and so on. A lot of people have
:14:58. > :15:04.difficulty with that kind of segregated society. You don't? It
:15:05. > :15:09.depends on what you are comfortable with. Some women are comfortable
:15:10. > :15:14.with the segregation. I cannot work in segregation in my work because I
:15:15. > :15:17.am required to meet men and talk to them and interact with them. When I
:15:18. > :15:23.talk about the readiness and acceptance of society and the way
:15:24. > :15:27.they see things in their work. As a councillor in Jeddah, you have
:15:28. > :15:31.talked about how you go all over Jeddah and you go to areas which
:15:32. > :15:36.could be described as slum areas where there are Saudis living in
:15:37. > :15:41.great poverty, how engaged are you with the kind of issues that may
:15:42. > :15:48.arise in these places? How much of a champion are you? IMA champion, but
:15:49. > :15:54.I am very well-connected with the people in the slums and all-around
:15:55. > :16:00.Jeddah. I ran for office because I know the needs for the city, I am
:16:01. > :16:07.very well-connected with them, the percentage of Saudis in every area.
:16:08. > :16:12.You talk about non- Saudis. A country of 30 million, 10 million
:16:13. > :16:15.migrants and 20 million Saudis, the issue of migrant women, is that on
:16:16. > :16:21.your radar? We get regular reports of domestic abuse involving female
:16:22. > :16:26.migrant workers and that kind of Sting. Does anybody speak for them
:16:27. > :16:38.in Saudi Arabia? We have the human rights Association, and helpers for
:16:39. > :16:46.child abuse. For us, where we work in the slums and areas where we have
:16:47. > :16:52.this, Jeddah has two holy mosques. People come here all around the
:16:53. > :16:58.world. Imagine when you have a neighbourhood full of sometimes
:16:59. > :17:03.crime, problems, there is no implement, there is no education,
:17:04. > :17:09.there are a lot of things to work on. Talking about one big issue that
:17:10. > :17:12.affects not just Saudi Arabia at a lot of countries in Africa and Asia
:17:13. > :17:17.and the Middle East, this issue of early nature. We have the head of
:17:18. > :17:24.the Saudi human rights Council who is a member of the Shura Council,
:17:25. > :17:27.who is a former executive director of the United Nations population
:17:28. > :17:33.fund, and an influential voice in Les done a great deal of work in
:17:34. > :17:36.this area. She has done and talked a lot about early marriage. There is a
:17:37. > :17:43.big issue in Saudi Arabia, because legally, there is no minimum age for
:17:44. > :17:49.marriage. In 2011, the Shura Council tried to restricted to 17 and above
:17:50. > :17:55.to marry, but it has not passed in trouble at all. We know there are a
:17:56. > :18:01.lot of girls in this country who are married off to men often decades
:18:02. > :18:06.older than them -- passed into law. Yemen, Egypt, driving, they are
:18:07. > :18:10.other countries. I don't have statistics because this is not
:18:11. > :18:16.something I have been working on and following -- Jordan. The counsellors
:18:17. > :18:21.in the Shura are working hard to issue a law to forbid marriage
:18:22. > :18:26.before 17 years. Occasionally we get cases like in 2009 when there was
:18:27. > :18:32.the age old girl who sought a divorce from a man in his 50s. That
:18:33. > :18:40.case keep the headlines. I will give you an example from an academic from
:18:41. > :18:45.university. He wrote at the media and said there were 5622 reported
:18:46. > :18:52.cases of brides in Saudi Arabia under 14. Just reported cases, so
:18:53. > :18:56.the numbers will be much higher. You need to make a song and dance about
:18:57. > :19:02.that. You need to talk about that as women. That is my fight. This will
:19:03. > :19:08.go on in Jeddah. You are a prominent Saudi women. You cannot carry all of
:19:09. > :19:13.the fight. You have to focus on the positive vibes as well not just the
:19:14. > :19:16.negative fights. Saudi Arabia is developed, and we have our
:19:17. > :19:25.challenges and we are still issuing a lot of NGOs. When you talk about
:19:26. > :19:30.lobbying and advocacy, we are still needing NGOs to provide good
:19:31. > :19:35.performance. Just looking at the issues, you said earlier about the
:19:36. > :19:41.interpretations of Islam, and again it has been talked about practices
:19:42. > :19:45.bound up with religion and culture. She thinks to highlight the
:19:46. > :19:52.selective use of Scripture is not something she accepts. While the
:19:53. > :19:57.profits wife was young -- profit's, and to justify what is now known as
:19:58. > :20:00.child marriage, his first wife was older than him when they were
:20:01. > :20:06.married, and she was working for her. She is saying don't be
:20:07. > :20:11.selective. Yes. Due a great? Of course. This is what happens with
:20:12. > :20:17.people who try to be selective and just copy and paste the things they
:20:18. > :20:26.want either from the first Iraq war or the Crown. -- Sharia all the
:20:27. > :20:34.Koran. We are having issues with them mixing the laws. We have people
:20:35. > :20:40.driving, mixing office, lots of issues. I have a quote from the
:20:41. > :20:44.foreign editor of a newspaper very widely read in the Arab world, and
:20:45. > :20:49.she is also writing a book about Saudi women. She says, Saudi women
:20:50. > :20:55.need to know that they are the change. They have to demand it. It
:20:56. > :20:59.will not be given to them by their male counterparts. In fact, women
:21:00. > :21:03.are the change in the kingdom. Do you agree with that? I totally agree
:21:04. > :21:11.with that. That women are the change. Yes. I totally agree with
:21:12. > :21:16.that. I don't know exactly why, but in the last 20 years, if you look at
:21:17. > :21:24.the history of Saudi women, we have moved really fast. 50 years ago, we
:21:25. > :21:28.had no women in education and healthcare, no use in women in
:21:29. > :21:35.different fields, different sectors, and I'm sure we will see a woman
:21:36. > :21:40.minister and so on -- you see. All of these things came after the
:21:41. > :21:46.goodwill of education. We need to work for more women in Parliament.
:21:47. > :21:51.But we also need to have a good knowledge transfer from the men, our
:21:52. > :21:57.counterparts. Segregation for the last few years led to immaturity
:21:58. > :22:01.sometimes. I always tell women they need to talk into mini cake with
:22:02. > :22:05.men. The way you talk like a woman, men will not accept you in the
:22:06. > :22:10.workforce. You need to look and think like men. Really? You think
:22:11. > :22:15.women should be more confrontational? It depends on the
:22:16. > :22:20.situation. Not in all cases. It depends on the situation. We need to
:22:21. > :22:24.trust yourself and your ability and to have the full information of the
:22:25. > :22:29.fight you are working for. If you believe women are the change in the
:22:30. > :22:34.kingdom as suggested, do you think if women in Saudi Arabia to gain
:22:35. > :22:42.greater freedoms, more rights, that can also bring greater civic, social
:22:43. > :22:50.and even political freedoms for all citizens, regardless of gender? I
:22:51. > :22:56.think, yes, I mean, the Saudi size Seiji is very active. -- society.
:22:57. > :23:01.You can see in social media, and with this new law for NGOs, and the
:23:02. > :23:09.government is pushing for this. If you look at the new plan for the
:23:10. > :23:12.transformation of one of the key educators, it is social justice and
:23:13. > :23:17.women participating in the workforce. I think they know women
:23:18. > :23:22.are the key for all of these social changes in society. Instead of women
:23:23. > :23:27.in Saudi Arabia being seen as these oppressed, downtrodden members of
:23:28. > :23:31.society who can't drive and all the rest of it, you say they could
:23:32. > :23:35.actually be in the vanguard of greater civic, social, political
:23:36. > :23:41.freedoms for everybody? They are already there. But society doesn't
:23:42. > :23:45.see it. People here are highlighting the elections and how it has moved
:23:46. > :23:49.forward and is a good and bright future, if you look at the last
:23:50. > :23:53.seven years, we have been working with council. Maybe not under a
:23:54. > :24:01.legitimate umbrella, but we have executed so many fights. Even the
:24:02. > :24:05.council is to take our advice. We just need to highlight these
:24:06. > :24:06.achievements. Rasha Hefzi, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.
:24:07. > :24:33.Thank you. There are a couple of quiet days
:24:34. > :24:37.on the horizon.