:00:07. > :00:15.Does Poland's recently elected conservative, nationalist Government
:00:16. > :00:21.represent a threat to European values of freedom and democracy?
:00:22. > :00:23.The European Commission is investigating that
:00:24. > :00:25.after controversial media and court reforms prompted critics to condemn
:00:26. > :00:36.My guest today is Krzysztof Szczerski, the foreign policy
:00:37. > :01:16.How will a newly assertive Poland play its hand in Europe?
:01:17. > :01:22.Krzysztof Szczerski, welcome to HARDtalk. It's my pleasure. I want
:01:23. > :01:26.to begin with the most pressing matter facing the European Union
:01:27. > :01:30.right now. Within hours there will be a European leaders' summit
:01:31. > :01:35.dominated by the question of Britain and its future in the European
:01:36. > :01:41.Union. David Cameron has been pushing very hard for a series of
:01:42. > :01:45.concessions, a redefining of Britain's relationship with the EU.
:01:46. > :01:50.He has been in Warsaw to try to win support from your government. Are
:01:51. > :01:56.you on his side? We are on the side of the British being in the utopian
:01:57. > :02:01.union because we believe in a united Europe. But on the question of the
:02:02. > :02:06.serious debates and the quotations going on, still some things are open
:02:07. > :02:12.and at the last round of negotiations is needed. We hear that
:02:13. > :02:16.your government in Poland along with three other East European member
:02:17. > :02:20.states of the European Union are still not satisfied with the deal on
:02:21. > :02:26.the table when it comes to benefits and the British government's demand
:02:27. > :02:30.that it be able to block the application of in work benefits to
:02:31. > :02:39.EU migrant workers inside Britain. What are your concerns? Of course,
:02:40. > :02:44.I'm not here to conduct negotiations. I'm interested in the
:02:45. > :02:48.red line, the most important thing for us. We should not harm the free
:02:49. > :02:52.movement of people which is freedom of workers, which is one of the most
:02:53. > :02:55.basic freedoms of the European Union. All the changes in the
:02:56. > :03:02.benefit system should not harm the free movement of people themselves.
:03:03. > :03:05.Secondly, if we want to have a deal based on British concerns, it should
:03:06. > :03:09.be specially tailored for Britain, for a special kind of benefit
:03:10. > :03:15.system, and not contributory that exists here in Britain. That should
:03:16. > :03:18.not be the example to set for the rest of the European countries. You
:03:19. > :03:23.want it written into any agreement that this cannot be a model for any
:03:24. > :03:28.other member states to impose new limitations on benefits? Surely not.
:03:29. > :03:32.It must be especially tailored for Britain and for the system they
:03:33. > :03:38.have. Especially also for the newcomers that will come to the
:03:39. > :03:43.United Kingdom. That is a crucial point. Are you saying that all of
:03:44. > :03:47.these limitations on benefits, including in work benefits and
:03:48. > :03:52.rearrangement of child benefit, none of this can apply to Polish citizens
:03:53. > :03:55.or other EU citizens who are already in the UK working? Yes because they
:03:56. > :04:01.are contributing to the system where they work. If they are already here
:04:02. > :04:07.and keep working, helping Britain to grow through their work, they should
:04:08. > :04:12.have full access to the system in the country they work in. But that
:04:13. > :04:15.means more than a million Polish people believed to be in this
:04:16. > :04:20.country today, none of this will apply to them as far as you're
:04:21. > :04:26.concerned? Yes, but the reason for that is not just because we are
:04:27. > :04:29.standing by our citizens. It is just because it is a principle that if
:04:30. > :04:34.you are already in the system and you are working, you should have
:04:35. > :04:41.access to the benefits coming from the fact that you are legally in the
:04:42. > :04:45.country of your residence. Acting under law but is retroactive,
:04:46. > :04:52.otherwise it is harming people already in the system, that would be
:04:53. > :04:56.against the basics of European legislation. A final detail point on
:04:57. > :05:00.this and then we both get to the bigger picture. The British
:05:01. > :05:04.government appears to believe that some EU workers come to Britain
:05:05. > :05:07.because they are attracted by the benefits, including child benefit
:05:08. > :05:10.for all those who have children. So the message from the British
:05:11. > :05:13.government is that child benefit will no longer be given as it is to
:05:14. > :05:20.British citizens but will be tailored to the cost-of-living in
:05:21. > :05:25.the home country of the EU migrant workers. Is that acceptable to
:05:26. > :05:31.Poland? In general, gas, but there are many questions as to how to
:05:32. > :05:41.organise the whole system within taxation -- yes. Not every model of
:05:42. > :05:45.the system will actually work. Also they need a benefit for the British
:05:46. > :05:48.budget. They should think about and that is what these last-minute
:05:49. > :05:51.negotiations are that are still on the table. First of all, there are
:05:52. > :05:57.many Polish people living in Britain. Of course, we would prefer
:05:58. > :06:05.them overcome back and find a job and work within Poland. But as they
:06:06. > :06:11.stay in Britain, we are, of course, obliged to stand by their rights in
:06:12. > :06:15.every country. We are saying it should not make a model and example
:06:16. > :06:19.for others to follow in this way. You made that point very powerfully.
:06:20. > :06:23.Specifically on child benefit, are you saying you will ultimately
:06:24. > :06:27.accept the downsizing of child benefit payments for Polish workers
:06:28. > :06:34.in the UK? You will accept it? Depending on the formula it will
:06:35. > :06:38.work in. You used a phrase earlier which is important to any
:06:39. > :06:42.negotiation. You said there are red lines that you will not frost. As
:06:43. > :06:48.things stand right now just hours before the talks in Brussels, are
:06:49. > :06:52.there red lines that frankly, you will not cross, which means there
:06:53. > :06:57.could be no deal? There could be no deal. There are red lines that we
:06:58. > :07:00.won't cross. So as far as you are concerned, David Cameron has to make
:07:01. > :07:06.some concessions which he has not made so far? As I said, negotiations
:07:07. > :07:10.are still open. The deal is not done yet. That is the message. The deal
:07:11. > :07:17.should be done between the Prime ministers in Brussels because things
:07:18. > :07:22.are still open. But the President of the European Council, your fellow
:07:23. > :07:25.countrymen, Donald Tusk, said, and he was really speaking about Poland
:07:26. > :07:29.and other Eastern European countries that have problems with David
:07:30. > :07:33.Cameron's proposals, he said be very careful because there is a
:07:34. > :07:37.possibility here of breaking this process and once it is broken, it
:07:38. > :07:42.will be impossible to put it back together again. Are you prepared to
:07:43. > :07:45.risk a breakdown of this deal, which will leave Mr Cameron in an
:07:46. > :07:50.extraordinarily difficult position? It is not a tug-of-war, it is a
:07:51. > :07:54.negotiation that should follow processes. We are very careful in
:07:55. > :07:59.building consensus, that means nobody going over the room is fully
:08:00. > :08:05.satisfied. But we all know that the deal is better than no deal and we
:08:06. > :08:09.are still in a situation where the deal should be better than no deal
:08:10. > :08:13.but still, we have to work on it. There are some leaks from diplomats
:08:14. > :08:17.in Europe which seems to suggest that some countries, I am thinking
:08:18. > :08:22.of Belgium for example, are pretty your tainted with the UK. There is a
:08:23. > :08:26.feeling that even at this and Mac game of the negotiations come of the
:08:27. > :08:29.UK's acting in an arrogant fashion. Some say the UK's focused
:08:30. > :08:34.unilaterally on itself rather than thinking of the collective. Do you
:08:35. > :08:38.share that view? I am the last one to judge the other country's
:08:39. > :08:44.behaviour. I just believe in a good solution. For Europe. To keep the
:08:45. > :08:49.Union of Europe and to keep Britain in, to keep Polish people in Britain
:08:50. > :08:55.and keep benefits in their pocket. We are still... The puzzle can be
:08:56. > :09:02.solved but it just needs an openness from both sides and respecting these
:09:03. > :09:06.red lines because they are general. The fact is that we are not
:09:07. > :09:10.advocating Polish rights, the right to Polish people. Actually in the
:09:11. > :09:15.last years, it is not the Polish people who are the biggest
:09:16. > :09:20.immigrants to Britain. We are not advocating the rights just to Polish
:09:21. > :09:26.citizens living here. We're advocating the principles of the
:09:27. > :09:32.free market, of the common market, which includes the freedom of
:09:33. > :09:36.movement. Which includes the freedom of work, which is actually
:09:37. > :09:40.beneficial to Britain. Britain is benefiting from the free movement of
:09:41. > :09:45.work. You keep talking about red lines and if there are red lines,
:09:46. > :09:52.you have to count the possibility that they cannot be brought to
:09:53. > :09:57.consensus and Britain might not get the deal it wants. How damaging do
:09:58. > :10:01.you do get would be for Britain if, in the end of this long process with
:10:02. > :10:05.a referendum, Britain were to walk away from the European Union? Who do
:10:06. > :10:13.you think would be damaged more? The European Union orb or ten? It would
:10:14. > :10:18.be on both sides. -- or Britain. Talking even louder, the free world.
:10:19. > :10:22.We cannot afford another crisis. We have already been at the forefront
:10:23. > :10:28.of many deep crises in Europe and the Democratic free world with the
:10:29. > :10:33.migration, Russia and Ukraine, with the situation in the Middle East and
:10:34. > :10:37.North Africa. We have so many crises that to find ourselves in another
:10:38. > :10:41.one just because of a lack of political skill to find a proper
:10:42. > :10:48.solution at the end a big negotiation process would be
:10:49. > :10:54.damaging for the community, has such. You are a member of the Law
:10:55. > :10:59.and Justice party, the Eurosceptic party in Poland. I wouldn't call it
:11:00. > :11:03.that. I would, looking at your programme. You are right, but we are
:11:04. > :11:09.realistic, rather than nationalistic and Eurosceptic, we are patriotic.
:11:10. > :11:12.You can use that word if you want but you don't believe in this notion
:11:13. > :11:17.of ever closer union anymore than many people in the United Kingdom
:11:18. > :11:22.do. Is Britain were to walk out of the European Union, a precedent that
:11:23. > :11:30.you might want to follow? Poland is quite different. We don't have a
:11:31. > :11:36.spirit of isolation. We are not off in the ocean for self-defense. We
:11:37. > :11:43.are in the crossroads of Europe and for most of our history, we are not
:11:44. > :11:48.in a position that enables us to think of disunited Europe. When
:11:49. > :11:54.Europe was disunited, Poland was always touched badly by the
:11:55. > :11:59.divisions of Europe. So the unity of Europe helps us. This is a different
:12:00. > :12:03.position but still, we really believe in Poland, especially my
:12:04. > :12:06.party which is the governing one now in Poland. We still believe in a
:12:07. > :12:14.Europe of free nations and equal states. The European Union, leaving
:12:15. > :12:18.it is not our slogan, we believe in a free Europe of equal states,
:12:19. > :12:23.listening to each other and respecting each other's interests. A
:12:24. > :12:26.lot of people in Europe are listening to you and not necessarily
:12:27. > :12:30.respecting her political position quite so much, as you might wish,
:12:31. > :12:35.right now because the European Commission is conducting an inquiry
:12:36. > :12:37.into the degree to which your government is violating fundamental
:12:38. > :12:44.principles of freedom and democracy. That's a long story. We
:12:45. > :12:51.have a dialogue with the European Commission on a certain law that was
:12:52. > :12:55.passed in Poland. To get into this, I know... It is an inquiry not a
:12:56. > :13:02.negotiation. They know what you have done in terms of firing the senior
:13:03. > :13:05.management in both the state, public-service radio and
:13:06. > :13:07.television, obviously violating principles of freedom and
:13:08. > :13:10.independence in media and also looking at what you have done in
:13:11. > :13:13.your Constitutional Court, and they have concluded that there are
:13:14. > :13:18.grounds to be very concerned about the state of democracy in Poland
:13:19. > :13:22.today. Right. Should I start from the very beginning? The media. He
:13:23. > :13:28.the only change that has been made is to bring back the corporate
:13:29. > :13:33.governance in the media. The media in Poland, in every state it is
:13:34. > :13:37.different, for us it is a state-owned company. It works under
:13:38. > :13:41.corporate law. The only change that has been made is the fact that the
:13:42. > :13:49.minister of the treasury, that actually is responsible for public
:13:50. > :13:56.corporations in Poland, is now appointing the supervision. Senior
:13:57. > :14:00.positions in the media and television are now the gift of the
:14:01. > :14:06.treasury or the government. If you want to control the company coming
:14:07. > :14:10.you need corporate governance. That can be seen as state propaganda and
:14:11. > :14:13.that is fine but most European countries aspire to something
:14:14. > :14:19.better. It is not a state propaganda anywhere. It is a language barrier,
:14:20. > :14:28.I know but if you look at the public media nowadays, you have not seen
:14:29. > :14:35.any change in political lines of the political... Whether you listen to
:14:36. > :14:38.senior journalists in our country or the Council of Europe which has
:14:39. > :14:42.expressed raved concerning disappointment with what you have
:14:43. > :14:45.done, all of these independent bodies both Polish and non- Polish
:14:46. > :14:50.are looking at what you have done and saying it is not living up to
:14:51. > :14:53.European standards. My experience is that when the representatives of
:14:54. > :14:58.these bodies come to Poland and are confronted with the facts, not
:14:59. > :15:05.opinions, but the facts, and actually see in place how these
:15:06. > :15:08.things look, they are not that harsh in their opinions at all. It depends
:15:09. > :15:20.who you talk to. Listen to the words of your own
:15:21. > :15:30.president's law tutor, one of the most respected, he says with the
:15:31. > :15:36.changes to court, those that rust through the appointment of five new
:15:37. > :15:39.judges and paralysed the court, he said he is deeply upset in
:15:40. > :15:44.appointing these new judges the government is showing disregard for
:15:45. > :15:50.the law. -- rushed. They are walking all over the Constitution for
:15:51. > :15:59.political expediency. Yeah. I have agreed that there are political
:16:00. > :16:03.debates in Poland over the Constitutional Court. It is a
:16:04. > :16:11.dividing factor in the political debate. Take off your loyalist
:16:12. > :16:15.hacked, are you really concerned by the way the government has treated
:16:16. > :16:21.the Constitutional Court? -- hat. It is in a state of paralysis. It can't
:16:22. > :16:31.work. In the United States there is a debate over whether resident of
:16:32. > :16:37.bummer is legitimate in appointing a new justice. -- President Obama. In
:16:38. > :16:44.Poland, five judges were appointed by the previous Parliament after the
:16:45. > :16:50.election that ended the coalition of the previous terms. The court
:16:51. > :16:55.declared that three of them were legitimate. The Constitutional Court
:16:56. > :17:01.has found its own finding which your party does not accept. There is a
:17:02. > :17:04.battle between the executive, your party, which wants to push through
:17:05. > :17:11.its own highly controversial agenda, and the basic constitutional
:17:12. > :17:14.framework of your country, which your party is trying to undermine
:17:15. > :17:21.stability it is more complicated than that. -- undermined. If you
:17:22. > :17:29.have an appointment, crossing the terms of the Parliament, when you
:17:30. > :17:33.have this appointment and it is not like the internal rules of the
:17:34. > :17:41.Parliament, just to push the appointment at the end of last year
:17:42. > :17:51.ahead of the new... That is... I can tell you. There is a struggle of
:17:52. > :18:00.Parliament between the Parliament and the Supreme Court over
:18:01. > :18:08.relations. There is. As foreign policy adviser to the president, are
:18:09. > :18:13.you saying to him, we have a problem because international perception of
:18:14. > :18:20.Poland is terrible. It has been called a dangerous Putinisation, a
:18:21. > :18:25.controlled democracy that subordinates the welfare of the
:18:26. > :18:39.state to the will of the ruling party. He, Mr Short, was seen good
:18:40. > :18:45.words about Putin, so I am not sure it is a criticism. -- saying. The
:18:46. > :18:51.fact is that we have to explain what is going on in Poland. That is why I
:18:52. > :18:56.am here on your programme now. Step-by-step, we have to explain the
:18:57. > :19:01.situation grounded in the democratic choice of the Polish people. It is a
:19:02. > :19:05.democracy in Poland. This is a democratically elected new
:19:06. > :19:11.government. The majority of citizens are behind it. They have all the
:19:12. > :19:18.legitimacy, democracy works in Poland. You have said you are at the
:19:19. > :19:22.centre of Europe in Poland, but if we talk about one other issue,
:19:23. > :19:28.migration and you, you were not in the mainstream. You have refused to
:19:29. > :19:35.take any migrants. The EU wanted burden sharing and you have rejected
:19:36. > :19:38.that. The leader of your party has said many controversial things about
:19:39. > :19:43.migrants, they carry diseases and parasites and are dangerous to
:19:44. > :19:52.Europe. Poland is out on a limb and is showing no compassion. We have
:19:53. > :19:58.solidarity with the rest of Europe. Taking migrants, some of the million
:19:59. > :20:03.or more that came last year may be solidarity, but you have refused.
:20:04. > :20:06.The European border from the east is safe because Poland is doing better
:20:07. > :20:14.job and not asking for any assistance. All the other countries
:20:15. > :20:17.of Europe should say, OK, Poland is doing that job because they are
:20:18. > :20:23.securing over 1000 kilometres of external borders without asking for
:20:24. > :20:32.help or assistance or money. Do you agree with the president in saying
:20:33. > :20:36.that migrants have diseases? It was taken out of context and exaggerated
:20:37. > :20:43.in the media. It was a long speech of him that was just in words used
:20:44. > :20:56.within the whole context... He is chairman of your party, Kaczunski.
:20:57. > :21:01.It was in the past. It was out of context. It is, in a sense about the
:21:02. > :21:08.way politics is itself in the wider world. -- sees. We have talked about
:21:09. > :21:13.constitutional changes you have made. We have talked about the
:21:14. > :21:15.migration policy you have adopted the what about your strategy towards
:21:16. > :21:21.your important neighbours Germany and Russia? Your relationship with
:21:22. > :21:26.Germany has deteriorated since you came to power and yet at the same
:21:27. > :21:29.time you want Nato, of course Germany is an important member, to
:21:30. > :21:33.put troops on your soil to stand up against any Russian threat. It
:21:34. > :21:40.doesn't seem like your policy with Germany makes sense given your fears
:21:41. > :21:44.with Russia. What is the relationship between Poland and
:21:45. > :21:48.Germany? Give me an example. You talked about the need for Germany to
:21:49. > :21:54.treat Poland as an equal partner last summer. Between...
:21:55. > :22:02.(CROSS TALK). There was a host of things
:22:03. > :22:10.you did not feel Germany was treating Poland is an equal with,
:22:11. > :22:14.like climate change. With regards to that list, we have different
:22:15. > :22:17.interests to Germany and are supposed to discuss them on an equal
:22:18. > :22:29.basis. Do you think Germany was correct to welcome 1 million
:22:30. > :22:38.migrants onto its oil? -- its soil. I think they are wrong. So you have
:22:39. > :22:45.major differences with Germany. It seems to me this will be problematic
:22:46. > :22:49.to have a bad relationship with Germany, they won't be keen to stand
:22:50. > :22:53.with you against Russia. There are no bad relations with Germany. A
:22:54. > :22:57.final thought about Russia. You wanted foreign troops on your soil,
:22:58. > :23:06.he wants the missile defence system on your soil, relations between
:23:07. > :23:16.Europe and Putin are difficult. If you get your weight things will get
:23:17. > :23:20.worse. No, why should they? -- way. Will they want to see Nato troops
:23:21. > :23:26.and missiles on your soil? That goes against the treaty signed in 1997
:23:27. > :23:31.with Russia and Nato. Having them in Poland makes only the whole alliance
:23:32. > :23:39.and the free world and Europe more safe. We want a deterrence only.
:23:40. > :23:45.Reinforcement possibilities and a presence of Nato infrastructure,
:23:46. > :23:51.troops, surveillance instruments, just to make the whole region more
:23:52. > :23:59.stable and safe copy because nowadays... We have to end Max. I'm
:24:00. > :24:04.sorry. -- safe. -- end. Is Putin a threat to Europe? I think Russia is
:24:05. > :24:10.a threat to Europe to quite we have to end there. -- Europe. Thankyou
:24:11. > :24:34.very much coming on HARDtalk. It's cold out there and there's
:24:35. > :24:37.some wet weather around. The combination could mean it
:24:38. > :24:40.it will be icy in the morning. Most places will have a sunny
:24:41. > :24:44.Thursday morning, but for some it