:00:00. > :00:00.David Cameron has said leaving the EU would be a "leap in the dark".
:00:00. > :00:16.Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi. We are in Brussels, where my
:00:17. > :00:23.guest has been holding informal talks with EU officials. Kyriakos
:00:24. > :00:28.Mitsotakis has just been elected leader of Greece's main opposition,
:00:29. > :00:32.New Democracy. New leaders are carrying out a review to see if
:00:33. > :00:37.Greece is complying with its tough bailout conditions. Does need New
:00:38. > :00:39.Democracy share some of the blame for the economic mess that Greece
:00:40. > :01:05.finds itself in? Kyriakos Mitsotakis, welcome to the
:01:06. > :01:10.programme. Thank you. When you were elected leader in January, is said
:01:11. > :01:16.to target was first to represent everyone in the country who opposes
:01:17. > :01:21.the populism of an incompetent government, referring to the
:01:22. > :01:29.government led by Alexis Tsipras. He is populist, or popular? Is popular
:01:30. > :01:36.and populist. Greece has suffered a lot from populism in this crisis.
:01:37. > :01:39.The problem with Alexis Tsipras is that he overpromised and under
:01:40. > :01:43.delivered. I don't know if it was because he didn't understand what he
:01:44. > :01:48.was saying, or he consciously decided to lie to the Greek people.
:01:49. > :01:53.The end result had to do with the fact that he was massively
:01:54. > :01:58.constrained by what he said before the elections, hence the tragic
:01:59. > :02:04.negotiating strategy which almost led us outside the eurozone. I won't
:02:05. > :02:10.repeat mistakes. His party has been in existence for only about three
:02:11. > :02:19.years, he made it the strongest party in Greece. It won two
:02:20. > :02:23.elections. It was very popular last year and similarly in September. A
:02:24. > :02:29.large part of his appeal is because he is seen as a breath of fresh air.
:02:30. > :02:35.He doesn't stand for the old, like your party? That is then interesting
:02:36. > :02:41.dilemma. I think he was successful in convincing the Greek people that
:02:42. > :02:45.he represented something new. My argument would be the opposite. He
:02:46. > :02:54.is the latest reincarnation of old politics. I would not be surprised
:02:55. > :03:00.that this comes from someone who represents a party that comes from
:03:01. > :03:05.the old regime. If you look at who has actually voted for Alexis
:03:06. > :03:10.Tsipras, those people who did not want anything to change in the
:03:11. > :03:19.country, the traditional voters. The former socialists? They moved over
:03:20. > :03:25.to support Alexis Tsipras. He came at a time when public opinion was
:03:26. > :03:32.still involved with populism. Now we have seen all incarnations of
:03:33. > :03:40.populism. You mentioned a client list of state, which is what Alexis
:03:41. > :03:51.Tsipras accused the opposition as being the promoters of clientalism
:03:52. > :03:57.-- clientalism. The new democracy government in 2009, 100,000 new jobs
:03:58. > :04:02.created in the civil service over five years. It was almost as though
:04:03. > :04:08.these jobs were seen as the spoils of government? That is certainly
:04:09. > :04:11.true. I have been very honest in addressing my party's shortcomings
:04:12. > :04:18.when it comes to using the state as a mechanism to promote our party
:04:19. > :04:26.agenda. To a certain extent, one of the reasons that Greece went
:04:27. > :04:31.bankrupt was to do with the parties adopting this attitude. But it is
:04:32. > :04:37.time for a clean break. I am being quite honest in terms of accepting
:04:38. > :04:42.our mistakes and I am absolutely committed not to repeat these
:04:43. > :04:52.mistakes. Do you think it is odd and surprising that you are accusing the
:04:53. > :04:57.answer is a party of clientalism, when you should be perhaps looking
:04:58. > :05:05.at digging out the clientalism that has been in your party? I was in a
:05:06. > :05:10.previous government for 18 months in 2013. I did my best to change these
:05:11. > :05:18.practices. I think I was relatively successful. I am accusing Alexis
:05:19. > :05:23.Tsipras of the same sense of clientalism because I have hard
:05:24. > :05:28.evidence. He supports his friends and family. You can do that as
:05:29. > :05:32.leader of the main opposition, but are you also carrying out an
:05:33. > :05:39.internal investigation into potential abuse by your own party in
:05:40. > :05:45.the past, even if you weren't in power? We have been very honest
:05:46. > :05:53.about our past and assuming responsibility for past tractors is.
:05:54. > :06:00.I think in terms of the political blame, this has already been... As
:06:01. > :06:05.an investigation? There is nothing illegal being done here. This was a
:06:06. > :06:11.political practice which was very common in Greece during the good old
:06:12. > :06:21.days, which is no longer tolerated by Greek public opinion. One of my
:06:22. > :06:25.priorities for the party is to move towards a new party Congress, which
:06:26. > :06:29.will take place in a few months. I have made it very clear that I want
:06:30. > :06:34.new faces in new people in the party. It is not easy, because the
:06:35. > :06:39.party has been associated with the past you describe. It is my job to
:06:40. > :06:45.make this party attractive to people who view politics with scepticism.
:06:46. > :06:48.The problem in Greece is attracting people to the public service. It is
:06:49. > :06:53.not happening because of the cynicism which exists. To a certain
:06:54. > :07:01.extent it is justified, but my job is to change that attitude. With all
:07:02. > :07:06.respect, old man, new face. Your father was a former New Democracy
:07:07. > :07:11.Prime Minister. Your shadow cabinet, the nephew of the former prime
:07:12. > :07:17.minister is also in your shadow cabinet. Old name, a new face? We
:07:18. > :07:23.have struggled with this. We are not the only country which has a
:07:24. > :07:28.tradition of political dynasty is. It happens in the US and other
:07:29. > :07:33.countries. I have struggled a lot with this issue since I first
:07:34. > :07:37.entered politics. People always told me that I must have an unfair
:07:38. > :07:40.advantage. The truth is that people are much more sceptical when they
:07:41. > :07:49.see someone coming from a political family. I feel that I had to work
:07:50. > :07:52.twice as hard to prove myself. I would give an opportunity to people
:07:53. > :07:58.who did not have the same advantage as I did. I have made it very clear
:07:59. > :08:04.that I will not tolerate a party which is functioning more on the
:08:05. > :08:10.basis of personal connections than meritocracy. We are where we are
:08:11. > :08:15.now, there was a Coalition government until Alexis Tsipras came
:08:16. > :08:22.to power in 2015. Under that previous government, tax reforms
:08:23. > :08:26.were one of the things that the creditors were demanding. In 2014
:08:27. > :08:34.when you are in the government as reform Minister, the head of
:08:35. > :08:40.Greece' tax collection agency resigned claiming he was under
:08:41. > :08:45.political pressure to go easy on sensitive targets. I contrast this
:08:46. > :08:52.with what the current government is doing. The Finance Minister said he
:08:53. > :08:55.is carrying out important work with Greek banks, and said your party
:08:56. > :09:01.would never have done that because it is like turkeys voting for
:09:02. > :09:05.Christmas? He is not right. There was a lot of work done to fight tax
:09:06. > :09:12.evasion under the previous government. At some point, we need
:09:13. > :09:19.to finish with this distinction that one party is by definition a more
:09:20. > :09:26.honest simply because they belong to the left or right. He was also
:09:27. > :09:32.accusing a centre-left of doing the same thing. Let me make a reference
:09:33. > :09:37.to the resignation. I think that was a mistake. I criticise my government
:09:38. > :09:44.at the time about the handling of this case. We need independent
:09:45. > :09:51.people managing critical positions. I am struggling to see whether you
:09:52. > :09:56.are going to be the person with the broom who is going to sweep out some
:09:57. > :10:00.of the mistakes that yourself have admitted were committed by the old
:10:01. > :10:05.guard within your own party? That is what people want to see,
:10:06. > :10:11.investigations, people who were in past governments and are associated
:10:12. > :10:16.with the bad old days. As I said, in my shadow cabinet, I primarily
:10:17. > :10:23.picked people who have not been associated with the past of New
:10:24. > :10:29.Democracy. I still consider the overall footprint of New Democracy
:10:30. > :10:38.to be positive, especially compared to others. We made mistakes... What
:10:39. > :10:44.will you do about those mistakes? Civil service, jobs in the past
:10:45. > :10:48.going to associate supporters? I can tell you that in terms of me being
:10:49. > :10:56.very vocal about mistakes that we have made, I have already done much
:10:57. > :11:06.more than any predecessor has ever done in terms of criticising our
:11:07. > :11:10.past. Without going as far as addressing issues which, in my mind,
:11:11. > :11:15.have been resolved politically, because at the end of the day we
:11:16. > :11:20.politicians and are judged on our electoral results. If there are just
:11:21. > :11:25.as issues that need to be investigated, that is of a different
:11:26. > :11:31.magnitude. Is it because you have to tread carefully? You have one member
:11:32. > :11:36.who stood against you for the membership, and you won by a narrow
:11:37. > :11:42.but comfortable margin? Is that why you feel you have to be careful? I
:11:43. > :11:48.want to be very clear. When I started my campaign for party
:11:49. > :11:55.leader, I was the outsider. I think nobody expected me to win because I
:11:56. > :11:59.was very honest and I said things as I thought they should be said.
:12:00. > :12:02.People said someone who speaks the truth in Greece and is not a
:12:03. > :12:08.populist has no chance of being elected. I proved them wrong. There
:12:09. > :12:15.is a clear desire in Greece for this new political narrative. In saying
:12:16. > :12:20.that, I have the privilege of running a big party. It is a party I
:12:21. > :12:24.intend to make much bigger. That means I need to be able to
:12:25. > :12:35.accommodate different views and make my party more democratic. Are you
:12:36. > :12:43.going to shift left or right click we are a centre-right party, but...
:12:44. > :12:52.Towards the left? Towards the centre. We need to find a way to
:12:53. > :12:56.coexist. Certainly our differences within the party are very small
:12:57. > :13:01.compared to those we have when it comes to comparing our party with
:13:02. > :13:09.Alexis Tsipras. I feel that there are a lot of moderate Greeks who
:13:10. > :13:13.work in the private economy and have suffered in the crisis who are not
:13:14. > :13:17.represented politically today. They view New Democracy with scepticism
:13:18. > :13:24.because of the reasons you have said. You have been forced to the
:13:25. > :13:31.left because of Alexis Tsipras' popularity? I consider myself a
:13:32. > :13:37.centre-right Liberal politician. My views are closer to the political
:13:38. > :13:40.centre. I would never do something that goes against those fundamental
:13:41. > :13:46.core views. All elections in a 2-party system are won all lost in
:13:47. > :13:51.the political centre. Strategically, this is the right choice for New
:13:52. > :13:57.Democracy. Looking at the Greek economy, it is still in dire
:13:58. > :14:01.straits. You have been talking in Brussels to the EU officials.
:14:02. > :14:05.Creditors are carrying out a review to see whether you are complying
:14:06. > :14:10.with the demands they have made as part of the austerity measures. You
:14:11. > :14:15.have accused the previous government of being incompetent in its
:14:16. > :14:22.management, specifically looking at this difficult issue of pension
:14:23. > :14:28.reform, which is very critical in Greece? We have seen reports of
:14:29. > :14:33.pensioners suffering and on the brink of despair in Greece?
:14:34. > :14:39.Incompetence is probably a mild word when we look at how the government
:14:40. > :14:41.before me behaved in the first few months in power. They need to
:14:42. > :14:49.understand that we are paying the price today for a catastrophic
:14:50. > :14:52.negotiation which that government decided to pursue during their first
:14:53. > :15:01.six months in power. It pushed Rees to the brink of the terms of the EU
:15:02. > :15:04.exit and weakened the Greek economy. The economy would have grown this
:15:05. > :15:10.year if we had been able to continue on the path we have... You don't
:15:11. > :15:15.know that. Battle is the assumption. What we do know for sure is that we
:15:16. > :15:22.are again in a recession. There is an additional bill. That needs to be
:15:23. > :15:30.paid, primarily by pensioners or by new pensioners. We know that this
:15:31. > :15:35.additional bill is a result of the negotiations of Alexis Tsipras.
:15:36. > :15:44.I dispute that. Until Alexis Tsipras came on the scene, you said pensions
:15:45. > :15:49.were viable and two 2060. We said there was a report that said
:15:50. > :15:54.interventions made in the pension system between 2010 and 2014 were
:15:55. > :15:58.sufficient to ensure the viability of the system assuming nothing else
:15:59. > :16:03.changed. You accept that? What I will tell you is that my pension
:16:04. > :16:09.reform is probably necessary, especially now. My criticism is not
:16:10. > :16:15.why is Alexis Tsipras engaging in pension reform, but the direction he
:16:16. > :16:21.is taking is wrong. You are blaming him for part of the mass the pension
:16:22. > :16:27.systems is in now? I am blaming him for the fact there is a fiscal gap.
:16:28. > :16:32.On this pension issue, which is very important, he says this report you
:16:33. > :16:38.agree with that pensions were viable until Syriza came to power, it is
:16:39. > :16:42.wrong for several reasons. It is over optimistic and has over
:16:43. > :16:47.optimistic projections of growth and unemployment coming down. Youth
:16:48. > :16:52.unemployment is about 50% in Greece. You still have a fragmented and
:16:53. > :17:00.costly pension system in Greece, and because you have the low-grade,
:17:01. > :17:04.expenditure has increased. You are absolutely right to point out the
:17:05. > :17:07.pension problem in Greece will never be solved unless we turn to
:17:08. > :17:12.sustainable growth. The question is why has this not happened? I think
:17:13. > :17:17.Greece could grow at three or 4% a year issuing it had a government
:17:18. > :17:20.which was truly committed to attracting private investment and
:17:21. > :17:28.truly pro- reform, would support entrepreneurship. Which is what the
:17:29. > :17:34.study package demands. -- austerity. That is microsystem with Alexis
:17:35. > :17:40.Tsipras. He is half-heartedly implementing the reforms. Why is he
:17:41. > :17:45.doing that? At heart, he is a left politician and believes in a big
:17:46. > :17:47.state, he believes in public investment. He does not support
:17:48. > :17:54.private investment or entrepreneurship. My fundamental
:17:55. > :18:00.difference is a difference of how do we envision Greece returning to
:18:01. > :18:06.sustainable growth. One Syriza candidate in Athens last year said
:18:07. > :18:12.of Alexis Tsipras he was the first to tell the truth and say that these
:18:13. > :18:15.economic austerity measures will hurt, but unnecessary, and we will
:18:16. > :18:20.do everything in our power to soften the blow for the weakest in society.
:18:21. > :18:25.What is the matter with that? There are so many weak and vulnerable
:18:26. > :18:30.including pensioners in Greece. By two other in Greece today? I would
:18:31. > :18:36.argue the weakest are the unemployed. What is he doing to
:18:37. > :18:44.create jobs in Greece? -- who other weakest? People are being hindered
:18:45. > :18:47.by regular treat burdens but also specific decisions taken by
:18:48. > :18:51.ministers in this government that make the life of foreign investors
:18:52. > :18:56.difficult. There has been a change in the political landscape in Greece
:18:57. > :19:00.since my collection, which is welcomed I'm me and my party --
:19:01. > :19:06.election. It is reflected in the polls. And I hope I will be able to
:19:07. > :19:11.sustain it. Will you be raising expectations as to what you can do
:19:12. > :19:15.as the opposition leader in taking on Syriza because you are so high in
:19:16. > :19:19.the polls? My job is to contain expectations by telling the truth.
:19:20. > :19:25.If people expect me to overpromise, I will not do that. We now know
:19:26. > :19:30.these reforms have to be passed through Parliament, and as the Greek
:19:31. > :19:35.central bank governor said, about to lay, every hour we fail to complete
:19:36. > :19:39.the review weighs on confidence -- delay. Will you back the government
:19:40. > :19:44.in Parliament on these pension reforms? We will not back ever
:19:45. > :19:48.reform that is moving in the wrong direction. What would you do
:19:49. > :19:53.different? Would be much more aggressive in cutting supplemental
:19:54. > :19:58.pensions. Cut pensions even more? We have the main and the supplemental
:19:59. > :20:02.pensions. Supplemental pensions are funded by employees and employers
:20:03. > :20:09.and they should be no direct state contribution. What I have said is we
:20:10. > :20:13.have the noble funds, which I still funded by the state budget, but we
:20:14. > :20:21.should reconsider that. So the message you will be digging is cut
:20:22. > :20:25.pensions? If you want to cut pensions you have to first go after
:20:26. > :20:30.those who are privileged. And there is room for more spending cuts, for
:20:31. > :20:34.example, Alexis Tsipras announced an increase in wages of civil servants.
:20:35. > :20:40.That is a mistake and I asked him to take it back. So you will not back
:20:41. > :20:47.him unless you see changes was Mack I will not back him. It is
:20:48. > :20:52.inconceivable in a parliamentary system to have two majorities. If
:20:53. > :20:56.the Syriza MPs don't like his plane they will defect and New Democracy
:20:57. > :21:00.will step in to support him. And on all other measures which we disagree
:21:01. > :21:06.with him, Alexis Tsipras kids is no majority. It does not work. We have
:21:07. > :21:12.a majority, a minority, a government, and opposition. EU
:21:13. > :21:17.leaders are demanding Greece to more to tighten up its maritime border
:21:18. > :21:19.with Turkey and also to set out reliable identity checks at
:21:20. > :21:26.registration centres and provide medium-term shelter for the
:21:27. > :21:29.thousands of refugees. I have so clearly we have differences, but we
:21:30. > :21:34.need to find common ground and a national strategy. EU leaders say if
:21:35. > :21:39.Greece does not do enough, you could be suspended temporarily from the
:21:40. > :21:43.Schengen. This government did not realise the intensity of the
:21:44. > :21:52.problem. But there has been a significant acceleration. We are
:21:53. > :21:57.managing this better. It is also unfair because Europe has not done
:21:58. > :22:02.its fair share in terms of relocating their refugees to
:22:03. > :22:05.European countries. This debate has been held hostage to national
:22:06. > :22:09.politics and Greece has been a convenient scapegoat. That is not
:22:10. > :22:13.fair for my country. Do not ask agrees Europe needs to improve its
:22:14. > :22:20.borders but says he think there is more effort required by Grace --
:22:21. > :22:22.Donald Tusk. So do I. If Greece is temporarily suspended from the
:22:23. > :22:28.Schengen agreement, what will that mean? That would be very problematic
:22:29. > :22:33.for Greece, but also to Europe because we are not just talking
:22:34. > :22:38.about a temporary suspension of Greece, but the Schengen regime for
:22:39. > :22:41.the entire continent. We have three months to improve our external
:22:42. > :22:46.border management. We will comply with our obligations, but the
:22:47. > :22:52.problem is much deeper and complicated. Unless Turkey does more
:22:53. > :22:58.to control the flow of migrants and refugees, it has the ability to do
:22:59. > :23:02.so, for example, over the last week, we saw significant declines in the
:23:03. > :23:06.flow of refugees and migrants. This problem will not be solved, so we
:23:07. > :23:12.need to constructively engage Turkey in this debate. Finally, Kyriakos
:23:13. > :23:15.Mitsotakis, as leader of New Democracy, did you think you will
:23:16. > :23:20.follow in your Father's steps and become Prime Minister of Greece? I
:23:21. > :23:24.hope I will become Prime Minister, not because I am following in his
:23:25. > :23:30.footsteps, but that is what my job of opposition is. Ensure my party
:23:31. > :23:34.will win the next election. But I consider myself a different type of
:23:35. > :23:39.politician, more modern and more reformist. More practical. Not
:23:40. > :23:46.defined by your family? You have your sister, the former Foreign
:23:47. > :23:52.Minister, as your Shadow Minister. Sometimes family issues can become
:23:53. > :23:58.located, but I think I have proven I am my own men after many years in
:23:59. > :24:02.politics. I have the resume to support what I'm doing. A lot of
:24:03. > :24:06.people are supporting what I'm doing in Greece and that makes me quite
:24:07. > :24:07.optimistic. Kyriakos Mitsotakis, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.
:24:08. > :24:18.Thank you for having me.