:00:00. > :00:00.-- what it calls "combined operations".
:00:00. > :00:16.Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.
:00:17. > :00:19.World leaders are all grappling with similar problems these days -
:00:20. > :00:21.how to counter terrorism, enhance security and manage
:00:22. > :00:24.national borders, while at the same time remaining open to the benefits
:00:25. > :00:44.My guest is someone whose job that was, Janet Napolitano.
:00:45. > :00:46.She was homeland security chief for five years under
:00:47. > :00:50.She's also a former governor of Arizona, a US border state.
:00:51. > :00:53.How does she think we can make the world a safer place and respect
:00:54. > :01:26.Janet Napolitano, welcomed the HARDtalk. When you look around the
:01:27. > :01:30.world today you see almost daily acts of terror, insecure borders and
:01:31. > :01:35.the rest of it. You can't really, you are fighting a losing battle,
:01:36. > :01:38.are due? The world is a very troubled place. Everyone would agree
:01:39. > :01:44.with that and it is a very troubled place. Everyone would agree with
:01:45. > :01:49.that and the rise of jihad and the huge migration patterns that are
:01:50. > :01:53.under way. If you look at what your successor has said, he says he is
:01:54. > :01:59.very worried about the soft targets, the public places. For instance, in
:02:00. > :02:02.December last year we saw the San Bernardino killings, 14 people
:02:03. > :02:08.killed by a couple, a Pakistani wife and her husband say it for rook.
:02:09. > :02:14.That kind of attack is practically impossible to do anything about. --
:02:15. > :02:19.Syed Farook. You had a few, the Times Square bomber. Yes, the Boston
:02:20. > :02:23.Marathon, among others. When you think about something like San
:02:24. > :02:29.Bernardino, they call it leaderless jihad, in other words, people who
:02:30. > :02:33.had become converted to that theory of violence and they aren't part of
:02:34. > :02:38.an organised group and there's nothing to intercept and there's no
:02:39. > :02:41.travel to stop and they just go and commit an unspeakable act of
:02:42. > :02:50.violence. It is also the kind that is directed abroad. We saw that with
:02:51. > :02:56.the so-called Underwear Bomber in Christmas of 2009. That, from a
:02:57. > :03:02.security interception possibility gives you greater odds. You famously
:03:03. > :03:05.said at the time that the system worked but it was actually his
:03:06. > :03:09.fellow passengers who overpowered him and they realised that the bomb
:03:10. > :03:16.failed to detonate. -- when they realised. It was a lucky escape,
:03:17. > :03:21.however I was talking about how immediately upon that episode we
:03:22. > :03:24.were able to get control over all US bound international air travel and
:03:25. > :03:31.confirm every single passenger that was on the way to the United States.
:03:32. > :03:35.That was part of a system that... He got on a plane with underwear that
:03:36. > :03:39.had explosives in it and it failed to detonate properly. It is
:03:40. > :03:44.interesting, Janet Napolitano, that you are citing the attacks by
:03:45. > :03:47.jihadists because when you look at the figures it is quite striking
:03:48. > :03:51.that since the September the 11th attacks in the United States 400,000
:03:52. > :03:57.people in the US have died from gunfire, violence, and the 45, very
:03:58. > :04:01.tragic obviously, from jihadist of violence. So the numbers don't stack
:04:02. > :04:08.up. 12% of attacks in the US are jihadist inspired. So why the focus
:04:09. > :04:16.from you, when the figures don't justify that perhaps? I think that
:04:17. > :04:22.focus on jihad really drives from September the 11th, when we had over
:04:23. > :04:30.3000 Americans killed in the towers in New York, with flight 93 and so
:04:31. > :04:34.forth. For Americans to have that kind of an attack that comes from
:04:35. > :04:41.abroad and attacks iconic sites it was a real game changer for the
:04:42. > :04:44.United States. But the implication of what you are saying is that fear
:04:45. > :04:49.is driving security policy in the United States. I think in the United
:04:50. > :04:54.States, and it is sad to say and I don't agree with it as a matter of
:04:55. > :05:02.policy, but in general there is a greater acceptance of risk of dying
:05:03. > :05:06.in some way with gunfire. But not an acceptance of risk with dying by
:05:07. > :05:11.terrorism. So security policy focuses on the counter-terrorism
:05:12. > :05:18.aspect. So when Barack Obama said after the San Bernardino attacked in
:05:19. > :05:24.this -- in December, as we become better at dealing with complex
:05:25. > :05:29.attacks like September said -- September 11, that is the benchmark
:05:30. > :05:33.of security, we are successful if we avoid a massive jihadist attack.
:05:34. > :05:41.Whatever else happens. I don't think so. You want to avoid other kind of
:05:42. > :05:45.attacks as well. But in the United States most street crimes, violent
:05:46. > :05:48.crimes, are not handled at the federal level but at the local
:05:49. > :05:53.police departments or State Department of police. It is
:05:54. > :05:59.prosecuted under different laws. I think it is evaluated as a different
:06:00. > :06:02.type of risk. Can I just say that it is interesting because when you were
:06:03. > :06:05.a homeland security chief there was a report published that had been
:06:06. > :06:11.commissioned by George Bush and it was released when you were in the
:06:12. > :06:14.position. It said lone wolves and small terrorist cells in bracing
:06:15. > :06:19.right-wing extremist ideology are the most dangerous domestic
:06:20. > :06:22.terrorism threat to the United States. So it's not just regular
:06:23. > :06:29.gunfire that poses the biggest threat, is it? No. It is the right
:06:30. > :06:34.wing extremists. We have violent extremists of all types in the US.
:06:35. > :06:39.Unfortunately. What you have to do from a security perspective is,
:06:40. > :06:43.using the best kind of information you can glean, consistent with civil
:06:44. > :06:47.liberties, with information sharing, data collection and all that, do
:06:48. > :06:51.everything you can to prevent and then be in a position to immediately
:06:52. > :06:56.respond. The fact is, it is because of that, as you say, in the US the
:06:57. > :07:01.perception is the jihadist threat after 9/11 is what really should
:07:02. > :07:08.people up. Look at the Oklahoma bombing in 1995... I worked on that
:07:09. > :07:12.case too. Right. So because of the attention on the jihadist threat,
:07:13. > :07:16.arguably there aren't enough resources being spent on the
:07:17. > :07:22.threat, the internal threat, from right-wing extremists. They cite
:07:23. > :07:32.people who say they should be much more done to try to put resources
:07:33. > :07:35.into right-wing extremists. I do think when we are planning security
:07:36. > :07:38.in the United States we sit down and say, that the jihadist, that's a
:07:39. > :07:43.right-winger, we are going to put money here or there. No, the notion
:07:44. > :07:49.is, where can you invest resources to be the most effective for public
:07:50. > :07:58.safety? When you look at the links between American jihadist --
:07:59. > :08:01.jihadists, like the one killed in 2011 in Yemen by a US drone attack,
:08:02. > :08:08.it was an American citizen living in the US. Why does somebody like that
:08:09. > :08:14.escape surveillance and is not stopped before they go on to commit
:08:15. > :08:18.greater acts of violence? Well, he was an interesting case. He was a
:08:19. > :08:24.cleric at a mosque outside of Washington, DC. After the attack of
:08:25. > :08:31.9/11, he was on TV as a kind of moderate Muslim condemning the
:08:32. > :08:41.attack. Boaties preachings got more radical. He went to England, went to
:08:42. > :08:45.Yemen and he became the voice of AQAT and then he became their
:08:46. > :08:48.operational head. That was a turning point in a sense of the president
:08:49. > :08:54.was a willingness to authorise a drone attack on an American citizen.
:08:55. > :08:59.How do you identify and catch people like that? Also the Boston bombers,
:09:00. > :09:08.which happened on your watch, the two Brothers, another who left the
:09:09. > :09:09.US and the FBI closed the investigation before he came back.
:09:10. > :09:15.You clearly need better surveillance. I think you have to
:09:16. > :09:23.think about what kind of surveillance. Al-Awlaki was in
:09:24. > :09:26.Yemen. It is very difficult to find individuals in Yemen. It is
:09:27. > :09:37.difficult to see Dale, even though there was close watch on what he was
:09:38. > :09:41.putting out on internet. The vast majority were reading al-Awlaki's
:09:42. > :09:47.sermons. But airport records? You mentioned that was relevant with the
:09:48. > :09:49.Underpants Bomber. We did a lot of work after that because it revealed
:09:50. > :09:57.a gap in international air information system and we fixed
:09:58. > :10:02.that. But we spent a year working with the UN and others to fix that.
:10:03. > :10:14.With the Boston bombers, these were young men, the sons of those who had
:10:15. > :10:20.fled from Russia. One went back. That's the older one. Yes. But there
:10:21. > :10:25.was no information, other than what the Russians said, that while he was
:10:26. > :10:30.in Russia he had somehow engaged in or become radicalised to the point
:10:31. > :10:38.of violence and indeed the records show that the VI -- the FBI
:10:39. > :10:42.interviewed him, they spoke to family members. They followed up on
:10:43. > :10:48.the lead. The Russians provided no more information. So they closed the
:10:49. > :10:52.case. And he was an ethnic Chechens. Talking about the road of technology
:10:53. > :10:56.and surveillance, there is great concern that whatever you are trying
:10:57. > :11:00.to do is going to be subject to perhaps cyber attack. You have said
:11:01. > :11:05.the United States may face some kind of major cyber event. Hywel Reddy is
:11:06. > :11:11.the US if something like that was to happen that could shut down
:11:12. > :11:15.infrastructure? -- Hywel Reddy. This is one of the risks for many
:11:16. > :11:19.countries of the world, not just the United States, that we are so
:11:20. > :11:25.willing to buy technology that there can be a major attack carried out
:11:26. > :11:29.through that. It could be committed to different nation states, but also
:11:30. > :11:35.different individuals using again the internet as... Weaponising it in
:11:36. > :11:39.a way. Very difficult to prevent, difficult to respond to. The US is
:11:40. > :11:44.not prepared if something like that happened? It would be a calamity? It
:11:45. > :11:48.could be. It depends on what it is, where it is, the extent of the
:11:49. > :11:53.attack, the technology used in the attack. There are lots of things
:11:54. > :11:57.that you have to go through. But, yes, in certain circumstances it
:11:58. > :12:04.could be calamitous. What is the nature of the threat exactly? Could
:12:05. > :12:08.it be some terror cells that are extremely good technology, all
:12:09. > :12:16.states that perhaps don't see eye to eye? Nationstates? It could be
:12:17. > :12:20.either. Actually, in terms of the kind of cyber crimes we have seen
:12:21. > :12:23.from the United States side, attribution is one of the most
:12:24. > :12:29.difficult aspects because you can see the attack, you can see what's
:12:30. > :12:34.happening on the systems et cetera. We do have things in place to stop
:12:35. > :12:38.attacks on three are detected, but the attribution can be awfully
:12:39. > :12:41.difficult. Talking about technology, there's quite a controversy going on
:12:42. > :12:48.at the moment because the federal court has said that it wants Apple
:12:49. > :12:55.to unlock the phone of the San Bernardino shooters and Apple is
:12:56. > :12:57.resistant with that. Right. The two top senators on the intelligence
:12:58. > :13:02.committee says there should be legislation to force companies to
:13:03. > :13:11.provide such information. What do you think? There's this tension
:13:12. > :13:15.between privacy rights and security, it is becoming more
:13:16. > :13:22.apparent. The Apple case puts a fine point on it. In my view, from what
:13:23. > :13:27.I've read, I do not all of the details, but from what I've read
:13:28. > :13:35.icon clue bat in all Lord there's no Apple exception. If you've shown by
:13:36. > :13:39.the information is necessary, that law enforcement should prevail and
:13:40. > :13:43.in previous cases that has generally been the case. But it is this
:13:44. > :13:47.balance between as you say the rights of citizens, the right to
:13:48. > :13:51.privacy, although with this case I think the phone was a work phone,
:13:52. > :13:55.but at any rate the chief executive of Apple Tim Cook says the
:13:56. > :13:59.implication of the demands are chilling. He says the worry is that
:14:00. > :14:01.if the software was developed foreign governments and criminals
:14:02. > :14:09.could break into many other phones and so that degrades privacy for
:14:10. > :14:14.all. So the commercial company says it is protecting the rights of the
:14:15. > :14:18.citizens. I don't know the basis for his statement. You have to
:14:19. > :14:23.understand what exact knowledge you we are talking about. Is it new
:14:24. > :14:29.technology that has to be developed? If you did it for this case, under
:14:30. > :14:31.these unique circumstances, why does that open the door for all phones
:14:32. > :14:38.and foreign governments able to use it? I don't know whether Apple is
:14:39. > :14:42.stating its case accurately or perhaps overstating its case in
:14:43. > :14:46.order to make a point. So you would back legislation that would compel
:14:47. > :14:53.companies to assist the FBI or other law enforcement agencies to unlock
:14:54. > :15:00.phones of people, as in the case of this couple?
:15:01. > :15:10.My view is that the law as it currently exists should enable law
:15:11. > :15:16.enforcement to prevail. I would say that one of the undercurrent here is
:15:17. > :15:21.where you deploy resources. -- undercurrents. What do you do when
:15:22. > :15:28.you follow up on the one Austin bomber and you can't find anything?
:15:29. > :15:37.-- Boston. Do you put him under surveillance? Where do you focus
:15:38. > :15:43.efforts? Trying to access a phone or computer? They don't do that all the
:15:44. > :15:48.time. It is a resource issue. I have to see that the FBI has many reasons
:15:49. > :15:53.it has put forward to the court as to why this information is
:15:54. > :15:57.necessary. What about the debate with President Obama talking about
:15:58. > :16:07.Muslims, going to visit a mosque this year, you cannot abandon values
:16:08. > :16:10.or given to fear. -- give in. When we talk about Muslims and the
:16:11. > :16:18.jihadist threat you have to make sure you don't change an entire
:16:19. > :16:27.community in the US. Muslims are by and large very well integrated into
:16:28. > :16:31.society. That is important. Extremely important. It is not easy
:16:32. > :16:39.because these kind of situations happen. No answer makes everyone
:16:40. > :16:48.completely happy. What is the best decision I can make based on the
:16:49. > :16:55.facts given to me. And in the Apple versus FBI situation, the San
:16:56. > :17:00.Bernardino shooters, there is a debate to intercept phone calls or
:17:01. > :17:12.get information that already exists. I don't know of an Apple
:17:13. > :17:15.exception. So when the hopeful for the Republican Party says he wants a
:17:16. > :17:23.temporary ban on Muslims entering the US until all four trees can
:17:24. > :17:29.figure out what is going on... -- authorities. It resonates with many
:17:30. > :17:36.Americans, doesn't it? Donald Trump is a leading contender, I would say
:17:37. > :17:41.the lead contender right now. Do you think you will get the nomination?
:17:42. > :17:45.If you look at the delegates and the states, he is in a very good
:17:46. > :17:52.position to get his party's nomination. But I would say without
:17:53. > :17:55.caveat that the statement about banning all Muslims on the basis of
:17:56. > :18:01.religious faith is very much contrary to American values. Another
:18:02. > :18:06.issue he has played within particular in the race for the
:18:07. > :18:15.presidency is that of migrants. In 2014, according to peer research,
:18:16. > :18:19.11.3 million unauthorised migrants entered the United States, half from
:18:20. > :18:24.Mexico. You are the governor of Arizona, or were, which borders
:18:25. > :18:29.Mexico... He is talking about building a fence. You have said you
:18:30. > :18:35.are not supportive of that. What do you do? Let me just say that not
:18:36. > :18:43.only was I the governor of Arizona, a border state, I corrupt in
:18:44. > :18:49.Mexico, I spent my whole life there. -- grew up. I have spent a lot of
:18:50. > :18:56.time on that border and know it well. My view is, show me a ten foot
:18:57. > :19:01.wall and I will show you a ten foot ladder. A wall is not adequate and
:19:02. > :19:09.is very expensive and doesn't solve anything. You need an immigration
:19:10. > :19:14.policy that makes it easier for immigrants to come lawfully. How
:19:15. > :19:22.immigration law is desperately in need of reform. -- Our. I worked a
:19:23. > :19:29.lot on that when I was Secretary of Homeland Security. That is a key
:19:30. > :19:34.part of migration policy. The underlying law doesn't work very
:19:35. > :19:41.well. When you were in Homeland Security you had a programme called
:19:42. > :19:47.the Secure Communities Programme. Under that 2 million were deported
:19:48. > :19:56.last year. America is expelling illegal immigrants and nine times
:19:57. > :20:02.the rate of two years ago. He is outpacing any previous president,
:20:03. > :20:10.Barack Obama. That is partly you're doing. Is that something you can
:20:11. > :20:19.really be proud about? -- your. That programme was an asset to say,
:20:20. > :20:24.look, we cannot deport everybody in the US illegally. -- effort. We
:20:25. > :20:27.don't have the resources for that. Let's focus on other crimes in
:20:28. > :20:39.addition to immigration crimes. Where do you find those people?
:20:40. > :20:46.Jails and presence in the US. -- prisons. That programme was a data
:20:47. > :20:54.base of... The criticism was that you didn't focus on criminals and
:20:55. > :20:58.deport them. This person says it is not focused on dangerous criminals,
:20:59. > :21:06.it is as significant amounts of tax dollars to sweep up those who pose
:21:07. > :21:10.no threat to the community. That was 2010. There have been numerous
:21:11. > :21:17.criticisms. There have been criticisms and evolution is in the
:21:18. > :21:25.programme. -- evolutions. Anything new is subject to evolution. I would
:21:26. > :21:32.disagree with that criticism. That is not how it was carried out.
:21:33. > :21:41.204,000 parents of American children deported between 2010 and 2012, that
:21:42. > :21:45.attracted criticism. One example, the president of the University of
:21:46. > :21:52.California, one person there said it has torn apart families more than
:21:53. > :21:56.any other administration, the Obama administration. That is partly your
:21:57. > :22:01.record. You have to put it into context. What immigration
:22:02. > :22:07.enforcement is. Their right instances where we would not have
:22:08. > :22:14.deported but the law made us. -- There are. We are seeking to reform
:22:15. > :22:18.that law. When you became president of the University of California
:22:19. > :22:30.there were concerns because of your past as Homeland Security chief.
:22:31. > :22:33.This student says he doesn't know what your goal is because you come
:22:34. > :22:45.from a background of Homeland Security. We have about 190,000 what
:22:46. > :22:51.we would call undergraduate students and another 40,000 students. We are
:22:52. > :22:58.the largest public university in the US. And we have about 3500 also who
:22:59. > :23:02.are undocumented and we provide financial assistance, we have a
:23:03. > :23:07.learning programme, special centres for them, and we work with them,
:23:08. > :23:12.because they are in this very difficult circumstance. When I was
:23:13. > :23:20.Secretary of Homeland Security, I recognised that. We did the first
:23:21. > :23:25.executive action to defer deportation on young people who had
:23:26. > :23:32.been brought here and grown up in the US but had come here illegally.
:23:33. > :23:36.Briefly, you are supporting Hillary Clinton for the nomination for The
:23:37. > :23:44.Democratic Party. You have a record of public service, why didn't you
:23:45. > :23:48.run yourself? Because I love being the president... Of the University
:23:49. > :23:53.of California. Thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk. A pleasure.
:23:54. > :24:18.Thank you. Thank you. Rather belatedly we are seeing
:24:19. > :24:21.more typical winter weather. We don't have to worry
:24:22. > :24:24.about flooding and rain,