:00:13. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. 120,000 refugees and
:00:20. > :00:23.migrants made the sea crossing from Turkey to Greece in the first two
:00:24. > :00:28.months of this year, outstripping the number for the first six months
:00:29. > :00:36.of last year. So much for the U Turkey deal to stem the flow of
:00:37. > :00:40.desperate people. Ankara feels overburdened and undervalued. Our
:00:41. > :00:47.frustration with Turkey is melting. My guest is Turkey's EU ambassador
:00:48. > :01:17.said Yenel. Is his government coding a dangerous pathSelim Yenel.
:01:18. > :01:25.Ambassador Selim Yenel in Brussels, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very
:01:26. > :01:30.much. Brussels and Ankara were supposed to have done a deal last
:01:31. > :01:34.November. You were going to get all lot of money, and in return you are
:01:35. > :01:39.going to stem the flow of desperate people making these sea crossing
:01:40. > :01:44.from Turkey to Greece. It has clearly been a total failure. On the
:01:45. > :01:49.contrary. We have made agreements more than three months ago. There
:01:50. > :01:55.was a deal between us, but it was not a quid pro quo. There was lots
:01:56. > :01:59.more than that. The 3 billion are coming in when we agree on the
:02:00. > :02:04.projects. We leave that the joint action plan is working. We have
:02:05. > :02:10.taken a lot of measures. We have reintroduced these for Syrians. We
:02:11. > :02:17.have taken other measures, such as what we have done on the coast, on
:02:18. > :02:21.the borderline, having more agreements with our neighbours.
:02:22. > :02:27.We've passed legislation is so that Syrians can work legally in Turkey.
:02:28. > :02:31.Nato is involved. When I heard the numbers compared to last year are so
:02:32. > :02:36.high, I think that is a wrong analogy. The migrant movement of the
:02:37. > :02:40.refugees started in the summer. So when you compare it with last
:02:41. > :02:46.January and February, of course the numbers will be high. So that's not
:02:47. > :02:50.the right analogy. Surely that is, because it is the first piece of key
:02:51. > :02:56.evidence about what you are doing on the ground. The assumption was that
:02:57. > :03:00.after this deal, your government would get serious about security
:03:01. > :03:04.operations on that coastal area to ensure that people smugglers could
:03:05. > :03:08.not put thousands of people every day onto those boats making that
:03:09. > :03:15.very dangerous crossing. Your actions haven't delivered. This is
:03:16. > :03:21.exactly what we are doing. How come thousands of people every day are
:03:22. > :03:25.making that crossing, then? We have captured people who are trying to
:03:26. > :03:30.get away. We are capturing smugglers and traffickers. The numbers would
:03:31. > :03:34.have been much higher if we hadn't done that. Recently, we have
:03:35. > :03:39.accepted more than 800 people from Greece. The measures we are taking
:03:40. > :03:44.are working, but they need some time. The EU expects the numbers to
:03:45. > :03:50.go down to zero in media. Look at the trends. They are going down, not
:03:51. > :03:55.as quickly as you want, maybe, but they are. I understand that the EU
:03:56. > :04:02.is not patient enough, patience is in short supply, we understand that.
:04:03. > :04:07.But we are working. I guess the concern from many in Brussels and
:04:08. > :04:11.Europe is about the mindset, the attitude, in your government in
:04:12. > :04:16.Turkey. A leaked document that got into the press not so long ago
:04:17. > :04:22.looked at the actual language used by your most senior officials in
:04:23. > :04:30.discussions with Donald Tusk last November. The 3 billion offered by
:04:31. > :04:33.the EU was described as an insult. President Erdogan and said to
:04:34. > :04:39.Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg and the
:04:40. > :04:44.president of the Commission, that we can open the doors to Greece and
:04:45. > :04:51.Bulgaria any time. We can put the refugees on buses. A clear threat
:04:52. > :04:57.that Turkey could make things worse. On the contrary. Let me explain. The
:04:58. > :05:03.3 billion is very important. We have spent more than 9 billion of our own
:05:04. > :05:08.money on the refugees in the camps. We have given ID cards to 2.5
:05:09. > :05:13.million in Turkey, and they are able to get free health care in Turkey.
:05:14. > :05:19.It's difficult to calculate how many billions we have spent. With these
:05:20. > :05:27.remarks, he did not said that we will send them. He said we could
:05:28. > :05:31.have. It was a threat. No. On the contrary, he was explaining the
:05:32. > :05:36.situation. There's too many expectations from Turkey as if we
:05:37. > :05:40.are the gatekeeper. Let me remind you that people had only been
:05:41. > :05:46.hurting us on the back until August, telling us we had been doing a great
:05:47. > :05:50.job. Only when refugees started to stream into the EU, people started
:05:51. > :05:55.to notice. Let's revisit the language right now. Are you telling
:05:56. > :06:00.me that this warning that Turkey could, if things get worse, end up
:06:01. > :06:05.simply putting hundreds of thousands of refugees on buses and taking them
:06:06. > :06:13.to the Borders, are you warning that threat is off the table? Of course
:06:14. > :06:17.there is no threat. We have never threatened anybody. Right now we are
:06:18. > :06:24.under threat ourselves from Aleppo. If Aleppo falls, and we are more in
:06:25. > :06:29.danger, we will have hundreds of thousands of people coming in. And
:06:30. > :06:33.we open our borders. We don't let them go elsewhere. We tried to keep
:06:34. > :06:39.them safe. There is no threat from our side. It was just an explanation
:06:40. > :06:44.of what Turkey could have done. We've seen it happening in EU
:06:45. > :06:49.countries. We are not doing it. We are trying to prevent people from
:06:50. > :06:55.going. This isn't being appreciated by the EU, so we are dismayed by
:06:56. > :07:01.this. You use the word not being appreciated. Other Turkish officials
:07:02. > :07:05.have castigated the EU. It seems you are not just disappointed right now,
:07:06. > :07:11.you are angry with what you are hearing from the US about what they
:07:12. > :07:16.expect from Turkey. We are hearing that we should open our eastern
:07:17. > :07:21.borders and close our western borders. We are hearing that the EU
:07:22. > :07:25.is in dispute and there is no coherent plan. We are not hearing
:07:26. > :07:30.anything about resettlement. If the burden is going to be lifted from
:07:31. > :07:34.Turkey, we should hear about resettling people, giving people the
:07:35. > :07:38.legal possibility to go to other EU countries without having to brave
:07:39. > :07:43.the waters and risk their lives. This isn't happening. We are
:07:44. > :07:49.debating these issues and EE units to get its act in order. Your
:07:50. > :07:53.government has said that hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees in
:07:54. > :07:58.Turkey should be taken by the EU member state and distributed amongst
:07:59. > :08:03.the members. Here's what Prime Minister Viktor or ban of Hungary
:08:04. > :08:07.said about that. He said, any plan to take in hundreds of thousands of
:08:08. > :08:12.refugees from Turkey and distribute them across Europe is an illusion.
:08:13. > :08:19.If Hungary agreed to it they would tie me up on a flagpole here in
:08:20. > :08:23.Budapest. We understand that it cannot be mandatory. That has
:08:24. > :08:28.clearly failed. It has to be voluntary. There are some countries
:08:29. > :08:32.who are willing to do so, like Germany and Sweden. But in the end,
:08:33. > :08:37.if we are going to help each other, we have to do it on a voluntary
:08:38. > :08:43.basis. Some countries have difficulties accept an them. Let's
:08:44. > :08:48.do it together. Given the million who arrived last year into Europe,
:08:49. > :08:53.and given the political atmosphere across Europe today, changing
:08:54. > :08:56.atmosphere even in countries like Germany, do you seriously think
:08:57. > :09:02.there will be a programme any time soon to take hundreds of thousands
:09:03. > :09:07.of Syrian refugees from your country direct, and voluntarily take them
:09:08. > :09:13.into the EU. Do you seriously think that is going to happen? It is
:09:14. > :09:17.possible. If we can do it in an orderly fashion and showed EU we
:09:18. > :09:26.stemming the flow of regular migrants coming to the EU, and show
:09:27. > :09:30.that we are doing it in a way the streamlining is done on a number, I
:09:31. > :09:35.think this can be done. It's not something that we don't expect other
:09:36. > :09:39.countries to join in. If there is a leader, like Germany and other
:09:40. > :09:46.countries that start this programme, others will maybe feel ashamed about
:09:47. > :09:52.this and join in. We need solidarity, and we don't see it. You
:09:53. > :09:57.are Turkey's man in Brussels. You monitor mood and political
:09:58. > :10:02.atmosphere across Europe. Are you picking up on the degree to which,
:10:03. > :10:07.across Europe's capitals, the politics of this right now is to
:10:08. > :10:11.find a way to stop more migrants and refugees getting in, rather than
:10:12. > :10:20.volunteering to take hundreds of thousands to wreck from Turkey? I
:10:21. > :10:25.have seen the panic and chaos, and it is surprising how the EU has
:10:26. > :10:32.reacted to it. They cannot handle 1 million in the union, that is
:10:33. > :10:37.release uprising. If we can find a way together, we can make it work.
:10:38. > :10:44.The irony is that it is up to us to stop the flow. It's up to us to save
:10:45. > :10:47.the EE, protect the U. That is ironic, after ignoring us for the
:10:48. > :10:55.last ten years. Now they have remembered us. The migration
:10:56. > :11:01.commissioner said that unless we can stem the flow, and of course that
:11:02. > :11:07.requires Turkey's cooperation, the EU, in his words, is facing
:11:08. > :11:12.disaster. Does Turkey feel any sense of responsibility for this crisis,
:11:13. > :11:18.this political meltdown, this looming disaster that the EU is
:11:19. > :11:23.talking about? We do not feel any responsibility at all. We've been
:11:24. > :11:28.dealing it -- with it for the last few years on our own. If the back to
:11:29. > :11:34.Mac cannot handle this together, it means that the 28th in the project
:11:35. > :11:42.has not been working. They have to find a way to be together. For the
:11:43. > :11:49.28 to act together, when a crisis like this happens, and we are not
:11:50. > :11:56.seeing that. The irony is that we have two help the EU on this. If you
:11:57. > :12:01.think that the EU is so useless, why are you sitting there as an
:12:02. > :12:06.ambassador who wants to join it? We still believe that the EU is value
:12:07. > :12:10.-based, and I'm sure they will come out of this crisis. They have to
:12:11. > :12:16.come out of the crisis and be stronger. We need a strong, sturdy
:12:17. > :12:21.EU that is value -based. If that does not happen and we see a
:12:22. > :12:26.disaster, we will think twice. Europeans are thinking twice about
:12:27. > :12:38.the specific detail of the current negotiations on Turkish accession. A
:12:39. > :12:41.general point, one of the things you have required from the EU is part of
:12:42. > :12:43.the deal, money and other things you have wanted to help you deliver your
:12:44. > :12:49.side of any bargain on migration, you want freezer free travel for
:12:50. > :12:54.Turks across -- Visa free travel for Turks across the EU. One of the most
:12:55. > :12:59.senior politicians in Angela Merkel's party said they thought it
:13:00. > :13:05.was a terrible idea, because even more people might abuse the system
:13:06. > :13:10.for migrating into Europe. One example, amongst the 1 million we
:13:11. > :13:17.have counted coming into the EU, 40% are Syrians and others are Iraqis or
:13:18. > :13:22.other nationalities, but there are no Turks at all. There should be no
:13:23. > :13:28.fear of Turks rushing into the EU. We have developed quite highly
:13:29. > :13:34.lately, and we believe we deserve a Visa free regime. We have a deal
:13:35. > :13:40.concerning a readmission agreement, which will be starting in June, and
:13:41. > :13:46.if it is working, and we will show it will be working, after that, we
:13:47. > :13:50.will see if the EU delivers on its promises. If they don't, we will
:13:51. > :13:57.terminate the readmission agreement. We believe that the EU has nothing
:13:58. > :14:00.to fear from us. The readmission agreement is agreeing to take the
:14:01. > :14:05.third-party migrants back into Turkey if they came into Turkey in
:14:06. > :14:12.the first place. That is another threat you are making. No, it isn't.
:14:13. > :14:15.If we abide by our commitments and do everything necessary, and then we
:14:16. > :14:21.face another political obstacle that we have faced in the past, what else
:14:22. > :14:25.to we have in our hands? That's what we always told them. We abide by the
:14:26. > :14:33.rules, by our commitments, and if you don't do it, we will have to
:14:34. > :14:41.terminate that. It is not a threat. Some might see it as a threat. One
:14:42. > :14:44.more specific point. My last question on the migration specifics.
:14:45. > :14:49.You say we are cooperating and we are keeping our side of the bargain.
:14:50. > :14:54.We heard yesterday from Nato naval commanders that they were not
:14:55. > :14:58.getting permission to operate this new Nato monitoring operation in the
:14:59. > :15:04.Aegean Sea, that they did not have permission to enter Turkish waters.
:15:05. > :15:08.Not at all. The deal was that we would provide surveillance and
:15:09. > :15:14.intelligence gathering, so if they see a vessel leaving Turkey and
:15:15. > :15:18.going into territorial waters, they will inform the Turkish coast guard.
:15:19. > :15:22.If they reach the Greek waters, they will inform the Greek coastguard.
:15:23. > :15:32.Therefore, surveillance and intelligence. Will you let them into
:15:33. > :15:37.your territorial waters? Of course. Let's talk about your government's
:15:38. > :15:42.overarching policy on Syria. If you look at the way the key players in
:15:43. > :15:45.the Serie A crisis are looking at Turkey today, Turkey does look
:15:46. > :15:55.pretty isolated. Would you agree with that? We are on the same page
:15:56. > :16:00.in many issues. There is some kinds of differences on certain
:16:01. > :16:04.approaches. We always want a peaceful solution, a diplomatic
:16:05. > :16:13.solution, but it is getting harder and harder. There are too many
:16:14. > :16:17.countries involved. We hope that the ceasefire holds. It appears to be
:16:18. > :16:21.just about holding, but your government appears to have reserved
:16:22. > :16:29.the right to attack as and when necessary the Turkish Syrian militia
:16:30. > :16:33.force the Y PG. The Y PG is maintaining the secession of fire.
:16:34. > :16:41.Wide you think it would still be legitimate for you to attack them?
:16:42. > :16:47.It is a partial ceasefire. It doesn't cover the whole country. So
:16:48. > :16:55.if some are there, they can be attacked. The YPG is not seen as a
:16:56. > :17:02.terrorist organisation. They are seen as a key part of the offensive
:17:03. > :17:08.against so-called Islamic State. You cannot have a good terrorist
:17:09. > :17:13.organisation. Just because they are fighting Daesh, doesn't mean they
:17:14. > :17:18.are better than the others. They are trying to extend their territory
:17:19. > :17:22.into Arab land and they are abusing the situation. Of course, the US and
:17:23. > :17:29.others are saying that if they fight Daesh, they are on the good side.
:17:30. > :17:34.I can tell you that Vice President Joe Biden said that the PKK and YPG
:17:35. > :17:43.different things. That's what he said. That is his interpretation. On
:17:44. > :17:47.the ground, we see bombings in our country and we know where it is
:17:48. > :17:54.coming from. That's the difference we have. We see it as a terrorist
:17:55. > :17:56.organisation. It seems your government, and there are
:17:57. > :18:02.substantial Turkish forces close to the Syrian border, your government
:18:03. > :18:11.is still contemplating a move inside Syrian territory. President Erdogan
:18:12. > :18:22.said recently that he will not allow the creation of any sort of northern
:18:23. > :18:27.Syrian Kurdish entity as he allowed a Iraqi Kurdish entity. How far are
:18:28. > :18:33.you willing to go? We have had attacks on our side of the border
:18:34. > :18:37.from the YPG and others. So they are there for defensive purposes. Who
:18:38. > :18:41.knows what will happen in the future and who will attack you. All these
:18:42. > :18:51.things have changed in the past and may in the future. A senior rush all
:18:52. > :18:58.-- Russian official said that there was a very real possibility, given
:18:59. > :19:05.the stance of your government, they conflict between Russia and Turkey
:19:06. > :19:11.in northern Syria. That is a pretty dangerous thing to say. We do not
:19:12. > :19:16.want that at all. Ever since we shot down a Russian warplanes we tried to
:19:17. > :19:21.diffuse the situation, but we are not getting any response from the
:19:22. > :19:24.other side. This is unfortunate. We do not want any conflict with any
:19:25. > :19:31.neighbouring country, so those kinds of words are not helpful. The
:19:32. > :19:39.Russians, it in the form of the Foreign Minister yesterday, asked,
:19:40. > :19:43.or demanded, that Turkey seal its border with Syria to stop what the
:19:44. > :19:49.Russians say our continued arms supplies going to what the Russians
:19:50. > :19:52.called terrorists coming from Turkish territory going into Syria.
:19:53. > :19:58.Are you prepared to stop that and seal the border? 1-person's
:19:59. > :20:08.terrorist is another's freedom fighter. So is that a no? The
:20:09. > :20:12.Russians of their, trying to prop up the regime, and they see things
:20:13. > :20:17.quite different league to us that that's quite differently to us. With
:20:18. > :20:23.regards to sealing the border, we have to keep it open so we can
:20:24. > :20:27.prevent the Syrians are escaping. When you observe Turkey's political
:20:28. > :20:32.scene today, do you find that some of the things your government is
:20:33. > :20:36.doing make it very difficult for you as a career,, to make Turkey's case
:20:37. > :20:47.for membership of the European Union? We have been in discussion
:20:48. > :20:53.with the EU on many issues. There are many chapters closed for
:20:54. > :20:58.political reasons. Chapters with regards to legal rights and so on.
:20:59. > :21:03.We need the EU together. We need to talk about these issues. The more we
:21:04. > :21:09.can engage with the EU, the more we have a better situation. We are
:21:10. > :21:13.always going form or reforms. The latest EU report in November said
:21:14. > :21:19.that the Turkish pace of reform has slowed. There has been backsliding
:21:20. > :21:23.on things like independence on the judiciary. A host of journalists and
:21:24. > :21:28.writers have been locked up. These are things that the European Union
:21:29. > :21:33.finds deeply problematic about what your government is doing today. We
:21:34. > :21:39.know the reports. We do not agree with what they say. The judicial
:21:40. > :21:44.system is working. Maybe slowly, but it is working. We try to have more
:21:45. > :21:50.reforms. But up until recently we were doing it together with the EU.
:21:51. > :21:54.But the EU distance itself for a long time. Now we are coming back
:21:55. > :22:00.together and we hope we can continue the reforms. I don't agree with a
:22:01. > :22:05.lot of things that are written there. It is a different
:22:06. > :22:09.interpretation. When you hear of things like 18 academics, respected
:22:10. > :22:15.professors, being charged and accused of treachery because of a
:22:16. > :22:19.petition they signed expressing concern about military abuses in
:22:20. > :22:26.south-east Turkey in the war against the PKK, you send a message back to
:22:27. > :22:31.Ankara saying, this isn't helping me and it isn't helping our case in
:22:32. > :22:36.Europe? Turkey is aware what is going on in the EU and the press.
:22:37. > :22:41.Everything is relayed back to them. There is a judicial system that is
:22:42. > :22:47.working. The prosecutor takes his messages. He has maybe accused
:22:48. > :22:51.people of some things, but in court, things are handled there. There is a
:22:52. > :22:58.system that works. Maybe not as fast as one would want, but it does work.
:22:59. > :23:04.People in Turkey are aware of what is going on, and the interpretation
:23:05. > :23:10.of the EU towards my country. You have devoted decades of your life to
:23:11. > :23:16.Turkey's case for membership of the EU. Do you think it will happen in
:23:17. > :23:22.your lifetime? Sometimes we joke it will happen during my grandchild's
:23:23. > :23:27.lifetime. Joking aside, our membership can only happen if things
:23:28. > :23:33.change, if the treaty is change, the way that the EU looks at it. It is a
:23:34. > :23:40.matter -- a matter of interest. Past enlargement have happened due to an
:23:41. > :23:45.interest situation. If interests converge, it could happen. The most
:23:46. > :23:49.important thing for us is to keep close, to be together as much as
:23:50. > :23:55.possible, and we believe that if we reach the same levels as the EU,
:23:56. > :23:59.that's good enough for us. The journey is as important as the end
:24:00. > :24:05.result. In the end, we will see how the EU actually develops. Ambassador
:24:06. > :24:07.Selim Yenel, we have two end there. Thank you very much for being on
:24:08. > :24:47.HARDtalk. Thank you. We really had it all today on the
:24:48. > :24:51.weather front. Rain, sleet, hail, thunder and icy wind. Tomorrow will
:24:52. > :24:53.feel less cold, the winds will be lighter, and