:00:10. > :00:16.Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. The EU and Turkey have drawn
:00:17. > :00:21.up the outline of a deal which might - just might - stem the flow of
:00:22. > :00:26.migrants from Turkey to the West. But, it will require EU states to
:00:27. > :00:30.take large numbers of Syrian refugees direct from Turkey. In a
:00:31. > :00:35.show of collective European burden-sharing which may be hard to
:00:36. > :00:39.deliver. My guest today is Meglena Kuneva, Bulgaria's deputy prime
:00:40. > :00:43.minister. Her country shares a border with Turkey, but has shown an
:00:44. > :00:46.iron fist towards refugees and migrants. So, is Sofia out of step
:00:47. > :01:20.with European values? Meglena Kuneva, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:21. > :01:25.Thank you. I think we have to start with the deal - the outlaying deal -
:01:26. > :01:29.which has been drawn up between the EU member states and Turkey. It's
:01:30. > :01:33.somewhat complicated, but it seems Turkey will take back all those
:01:34. > :01:40.irregular migrants who reach Greece, including Syrians, but only on the
:01:41. > :01:44.understanding that the EU will agree to take one-for-one Syrians from the
:01:45. > :01:50.refugee camps inside Turkey. Does Bulgaria support the deal? Yes.
:01:51. > :01:57.Actually, this is one-for-one deal, as we call it, and I think it's
:01:58. > :02:01.fair. It's burden-sharing. We show solidarity, which is a must in these
:02:02. > :02:07.difficult times for Europe and for the world. And yes, we do support
:02:08. > :02:11.it, really. So to be clear about it, if there will be - and it seems
:02:12. > :02:17.there will be - quotas decided by the European Commission as to how
:02:18. > :02:23.many Syrian refugees each EU member state will take, Bulgaria will be
:02:24. > :02:32.quite happy to accept its quota? Well, nobody's happy under these
:02:33. > :02:36.circumstances, with quite disturbing sources... Well, forget the word
:02:37. > :02:40."happy". You don't have to be happy... It's important. It's
:02:41. > :02:48.important. Will Bulgaria commit, right now, to take whatever quota it
:02:49. > :02:50.is given? Yes, if it is about burden-sharing, we fully understand
:02:51. > :02:54.our responsibility. Yes, we already promised once when the quota system
:02:55. > :02:57.started to be discussed that we will take our share. Well, that's very
:02:58. > :03:01.interesting you say that, because last September, yes, you're right,
:03:02. > :03:05.the European Union began this idea of collective burden-sharing. The
:03:06. > :03:09.idea was 160,000 refugees would be spread around the member states.
:03:10. > :03:13.Bulgaria had only agreed to - you said you'd take, what, 1,600? Yes,
:03:14. > :03:16.this is the share of Bulgaria. How many have you actually taken? Well,
:03:17. > :03:23.unfortunately, this quota system doesn't work quite well. No. You've
:03:24. > :03:29.taken two. Two. Indeed. But this is a matter of the willingness of the
:03:30. > :03:32.refugees, so... Well, it just makes me wonder whether, frankly, this
:03:33. > :03:36.deal, in outline, is worth the paper it's written on. A country like
:03:37. > :03:40.yours says, "Yes, yes, we'll accept our quota." But history of the last
:03:41. > :03:45.six months would suggest you've no real intention of implementing it.
:03:46. > :03:50.It's not about our intention, I dare say. Bulgaria, of course, is very
:03:51. > :03:55.much - we stick to what we have promised. But how to make people who
:03:56. > :03:59.are very much willing to go to Sweden or to Germany - how to make
:04:00. > :04:04.them and to press them and to force them to come to Bulgaria, which of
:04:05. > :04:10.course is a country with a language which is not so spread, like German
:04:11. > :04:14.or English, so this is the first difficulties which the refugees will
:04:15. > :04:21.face, and also economically, of course, the countries like Germany
:04:22. > :04:24.and Sweden are better off, and refugees hope that they will have
:04:25. > :04:28.better lives there. Maybe there's another reason that refugees look at
:04:29. > :04:39.Bulgaria and think "I don't want to go there." They see, in your
:04:40. > :04:40.government and your policy, a completely, frankly,
:04:41. > :04:46.uncompassionate, um, attitude to them. They see violence, they see
:04:47. > :04:49.that one refugee was actually shot dead by your security forces, and
:04:50. > :04:56.they think, "I would never want to go to that country." Well, the
:04:57. > :05:01.refugee hadn't been shot, as you said, but there was a gang, and it
:05:02. > :05:05.was a ricochet of the bullet, so it's... You can dress it up how you
:05:06. > :05:10.like, but the fact is, your security forces killed a migrant. Well, I'm
:05:11. > :05:16.quite careful and aware what does it mean "killed" and what does it mean
:05:17. > :05:21.something bad to happen by accident. So I wouldn't accept such kind of
:05:22. > :05:26.words that a refugee was killed. Well, there were also other
:05:27. > :05:29.incidents, including one incident where some Yazidi migrants were
:05:30. > :05:34.forcibly returned to Turkish territory from your territory, and
:05:35. > :05:39.two of them died of hypothermia. There is, underpinning your
:05:40. > :05:44.government's strategy, many would say - including human rights groups
:05:45. > :05:48.- is a callousness which is remarkable, even in Eastern Europe
:05:49. > :05:54.today. Well, we have some troubles to make people to be registered, and
:05:55. > :05:59.this is also part of our obligation. Because we can very nicely discuss,
:06:00. > :06:05.ah, our human obligations, and I fully subscribe after it, but also
:06:06. > :06:09.we talk about security. As you introduced our talk, you said we
:06:10. > :06:14.have a border with Turkey. And there are no other European countries with
:06:15. > :06:20.a border with Turkey. Imagine if we just opened the doors and all the
:06:21. > :06:24.refugees - without being identified - to come through the territory of
:06:25. > :06:28.Bulgaria and then go to wherever they want. Hang on a minute. It
:06:29. > :06:32.seems there's a real contradiction here. You're telling me you support
:06:33. > :06:36.the deal that has just been struck with Turkey, which includes the
:06:37. > :06:41.notion that there will be visa-free travel for Turkey, a warm embrace of
:06:42. > :06:45.Turkey, a speeding up of the accession process with Turkey. And
:06:46. > :06:50.here you are saying, "Oh, my God, we've got a Turkish border, we're
:06:51. > :06:54.very worried about it." I know you're deploying your army there,
:06:55. > :06:58.you're building a new barbed wire fence. These things don't seem to
:06:59. > :07:02.match. No, we are talking about legal and illegal immigration. So,
:07:03. > :07:10.being with all these terrorist threats - and don't take me wrong,
:07:11. > :07:16.I'm not saying that the migrants are terrorists or close to this term,
:07:17. > :07:24.but we need to be vigilant. Because together, with people seeking for a
:07:25. > :07:28.safe haven, some migrants would also like to do something bad. You look
:07:29. > :07:31.at Turkey with a sense of apprehension and fear? No, I
:07:32. > :07:34.wouldn't say so. We are good neighbours. We support each other.
:07:35. > :07:40.Is that why you're building a barbed wire fence? Because we cannot
:07:41. > :07:47.afford, with the Bulgarian guard forces, to have one guard every 50m
:07:48. > :07:50.or 1 00m. So that's why we decided to build this facility - this is not
:07:51. > :07:59.exactly a border - which will save human capacity. Otherwise we cannot,
:08:00. > :08:01.from purely budgetary and admin administrative capacity reasons, we
:08:02. > :08:04.cannot go with this any further. In all honesty, deputy prime minister,
:08:05. > :08:09.do you believe it is right for Europe to speed up the accession
:08:10. > :08:11.process with Turkey and, by the summer, talk about delivering
:08:12. > :08:19.visa-free travel for all Turks into the European Union? Well, first of
:08:20. > :08:22.all, when we talk about speeding up negotiations, still the open and
:08:23. > :08:27.closed chapter needs to fulfil all the obligations and, also to abide
:08:28. > :08:33.to the political criteria. And second, I think this is a step in
:08:34. > :08:40.the right direction. This one will help tremendously the Turkish
:08:41. > :08:45.society and also will make Europe more apprehensive to and to
:08:46. > :08:50.understand better the needs of Turkey. Yeah. Let's then get back to
:08:51. > :08:55.this notion that the deal, it is hoped, will stop the migration flow
:08:56. > :09:00.from Turkey into European territory. I just wonder whether you are now
:09:01. > :09:02.prepared to say to me - and we've talked about the shooting incident,
:09:03. > :09:08.but there've been many other incidents too, and we can talk about
:09:09. > :09:11.some of them, including police brutality, beatings, forcible
:09:12. > :09:14.pushing offing mierance erants back over the border - I wonder whether
:09:15. > :09:19.you would now acknowledge to me that it has been bad for Bulgaria's
:09:20. > :09:25.reputation, what has happened over the last 6-9 months? I think to
:09:26. > :09:31.single out Bulgaria having difficulties to pre vent the rules
:09:32. > :09:39.over the border, it's not very fair. We have the same incidents, as you
:09:40. > :09:44.said, in Hungary, for example, or in Austria, or in Germany, or in former
:09:45. > :09:48.Republic of Yugoslavia, Macedonia... Nothing like the pervasive, systemic
:09:49. > :09:53.use of violence and abusive practice against the refugees. I mean, it's
:09:54. > :09:57.not me saying that, it's, for example, the Belgrade Centre for
:09:58. > :10:00.Human Rights, which, in conjunction with Oxfam, did a detailed study of
:10:01. > :10:04.people who had passed through Bulgaria and managed to make it into
:10:05. > :10:08.Serbia. Of all the refugees they interviewed - from Syria, Iraq,
:10:09. > :10:12.Afghanistan - all who had had contact with the Bulgarian police
:10:13. > :10:17.reported abuse, extortion, robbery, physical violence, threats of
:10:18. > :10:23.deportation, and police dog attacks. Well, I very much appreciate the
:10:24. > :10:27.work of human rights activists, and this is their right and obligation
:10:28. > :10:32.to raise the voice and to ring the bell. Isn't it your obligation to
:10:33. > :10:35.respond to it, fruitfully, and to find out what went wrong, and to
:10:36. > :10:39.make sure it doesn't happen anymore? Exactly. That's why we made a lot of
:10:40. > :10:44.internal investigations among the police officers and we raised the
:10:45. > :10:51.public aware ness what is right and what is wrong. Well, Bulgarian state
:10:52. > :10:55.television broadcast from 2013 included interviews with members of
:10:56. > :10:58.the border police who said their superiors had instructed them to
:10:59. > :11:01."beat refugees and send them back." This is completely wrong. This is
:11:02. > :11:08.completely wrong. It can't be like this. If there is one single case if
:11:09. > :11:15.people claimed for it, I believe that not only the minister, but also
:11:16. > :11:20.the professional governors of the ministry, had taken note from this.
:11:21. > :11:24.There's a phrase which has been used about not just Bulgaria, let's be
:11:25. > :11:28.fair, but about some other...governments in Eastern
:11:29. > :11:35.Europe. The phrase is "a compassion deficit." Now, I wonder whether you
:11:36. > :11:39.would acknowledge that there is something about the attitude of East
:11:40. > :11:41.European peoples, who feel themselves that they maybe are
:11:42. > :11:45.suffering economically, that their lives are difficult, that the EU
:11:46. > :11:50.hasn't maybe delivered them all of the promises that they'd hoped it
:11:51. > :11:52.would deliver - that they don't really feel much compassion for
:11:53. > :12:01.these migrants coming in from outside. Is that true? Well, you ask
:12:02. > :12:12.me a quite psychological question. Mm. I don't want, first of all, to
:12:13. > :12:16.have another border between - mental one - between West and East in
:12:17. > :12:26.Europe. Do you think there is a bit of a division between...? Well, we
:12:27. > :12:35.are closer to the conflict. When the conflict is just one border from
:12:36. > :12:41.Turkey and you are obviously responsible to guard the entrance
:12:42. > :12:47.into the European Union, you should perform. And actually what is a
:12:48. > :12:52.viewed as a lack of policy is a lack of enforcement. Because we decided
:12:53. > :12:57.once that we needed to have control of the European borders, and we
:12:58. > :13:02.didn't manage. So instead of complaining that the big countries
:13:03. > :13:06.like Germany, like Spain, like Italy should do more, the Eastern European
:13:07. > :13:12.countries regained the control. Maybe not all the time quite
:13:13. > :13:18.properly - actually, Bulgaria was not together before in respect of
:13:19. > :13:22.rejecting quota. We accepted quota. You're not rejecting quotas. We
:13:23. > :13:27.accepted quota. But we need to have equal treatment. And if it is
:13:28. > :13:32.stipulated that we need to again control all our borders, it's tough.
:13:33. > :13:37.It's really hard. But we need to do it. Well, this is HARDtalk. I'm
:13:38. > :13:43.going to ask you another hard question. I wonder whether there is
:13:44. > :13:46.an element of xenophobia, Islamophobia, in your government's
:13:47. > :13:51.response to this migration challenge. I'm just looking at the
:13:52. > :13:55.words of your prime minister, Mr Borissov - "I'm scared. The
:13:56. > :13:58.Bulgarian people are scared. If only because of where religion is
:13:59. > :14:06.concerned. After all, we are Christian and they are Muslim."
:14:07. > :14:16.The Prime Minister should talk with the Bulgarian people and hear their
:14:17. > :14:20.concerns. They do have concerns, and for the Prime Minister to speak up
:14:21. > :14:25.instead of somebody else. Isn't it dangerous to legitimise this sort of
:14:26. > :14:30.language? The Orthodox Church released a statement in bog area
:14:31. > :14:37.saying the immigrant wave, courage, looks like an invasion. You only
:14:38. > :14:43.have 30,000 refugees come in, and a small proportion have been given the
:14:44. > :14:50.right to stay -- quote. The idea that it looks like an invasion is
:14:51. > :14:55.nonsense. We live in a mediated society, and the moment you switch
:14:56. > :15:03.on the TV and you start to watch that the refugees are coming, the
:15:04. > :15:06.incident in Cologne in Germany or in other parts of Austria, or in
:15:07. > :15:12.Macedonia, which is another order with us, people do feel this is
:15:13. > :15:17.almost in their homes, and I very much insist on it. -- border. We
:15:18. > :15:20.have populist parties in Bulgaria like everywhere in Europe, and I
:15:21. > :15:25.stay very much behind the Prime Minister being outspoken. What
:15:26. > :15:30.people think and what people fear, it means we need to face these
:15:31. > :15:40.fears, and try to solve the problem. Are you scared? I think it is quite
:15:41. > :15:44.scary that Europe... Use it is scary that very few thousand Muslim
:15:45. > :15:50.refugees have come into your country? You think that is scary? I
:15:51. > :15:55.think the fact we are not able to regain control of our borders, a
:15:56. > :16:00.European borders, might be scary. I am especially looking now at this
:16:01. > :16:05.clash of cultures your Prime Minister, your church, appear to be
:16:06. > :16:10.encouraging as a perception inside your country. You need to take this
:16:11. > :16:16.conversation in the context that we do have a Muslim when ready in
:16:17. > :16:21.Bulgaria, and we do... Between ten and 13% of your own countrymen are
:16:22. > :16:27.Muslim. Exactly, this is not about was them. This is about unmanageable
:16:28. > :16:34.flow of refugees. -- not about Muslims. But he said we are
:16:35. > :16:40.Christian, they are Muslim. It is odd when 13% of your own people are
:16:41. > :16:48.Muslim. I think the Prime Minister was not talking about... Wrong? No,
:16:49. > :16:51.he wasn't talking about this clash of different religions, but the
:16:52. > :16:57.unknown are coming from outside. We are happy to live with Muslims for
:16:58. > :17:03.centuries in Bulgaria. Just a final point, it interests me that you have
:17:04. > :17:07.many posts as deputy Prime Minister, which is that you are also education
:17:08. > :17:15.minister. You got the job after the last Minister essentially was fired
:17:16. > :17:19.because he was proposing to change textbooks, to get rid of some of the
:17:20. > :17:24.more inflammatory language suggesting that the Turks have held
:17:25. > :17:29.Bulgaria in slavery for hundreds of years, that they have dominated and
:17:30. > :17:36.enslaved your people. He was fired for trying to change the textbooks.
:17:37. > :17:43.No, no, it is about... I would say mismanagement to explain to the
:17:44. > :17:46.public what went wrong with the textbooks, and that is according to
:17:47. > :17:55.our roles discussed publicly in for a long time to stop if this is not
:17:56. > :17:58.done, of course... You are now education minister and we have
:17:59. > :18:03.talked a lot about the EU's developing relationship with Turkey.
:18:04. > :18:06.Do you think it is right and proper that Bulgarians are taught they were
:18:07. > :18:10.held in slavery for hundreds of years by the Ottoman Turks? I think
:18:11. > :18:21.you are very well briefed, but you need to know also our literature,
:18:22. > :18:26.our history, and to know more about how many people just gave their
:18:27. > :18:35.lives for the freedom and to have our own state. This reflects in our
:18:36. > :18:38.liturgy and history, -- literature, and we need to say what we went
:18:39. > :18:46.through. Let's talk now about Gary today. We reflected on the fact that
:18:47. > :18:48.maybe your attitudes to the migration problem is somewhat
:18:49. > :18:51.coloured by the fact that you are the poorest country in the European
:18:52. > :18:58.Union -- let's talk about Bulgaria today. It was said to people at the
:18:59. > :19:03.unhappiest in the EU. Why do you think will Gary's member ship of the
:19:04. > :19:15.EU the last eight years or so has not delivered for the bull Gerri and
:19:16. > :19:18.people? -- Bulgarian people. To manage expectations is one of the
:19:19. > :19:23.most difficult tasks for a politician and for all of us. If we
:19:24. > :19:33.expect a miracle to happen overnight and for bog area -- Bulgaria to be a
:19:34. > :19:40.better place to live and work, it is not 100% fulfilled. And also the
:19:41. > :19:44.European Union went into crisis almost immediately when Bulgaria
:19:45. > :19:48.went into the union. We had the crisis with Russia and we were
:19:49. > :19:56.totally affected by that. The financial crisis, which without
:19:57. > :20:01.being guilty, to bet circumstances after this crisis. This is not the
:20:02. > :20:08.happiest time per year. But maybe it is also because Bulgarians thought
:20:09. > :20:11.it would improve governance. I fully recognise that as our own
:20:12. > :20:19.responsibility. It has not worked. The latest commission report on
:20:20. > :20:23.progress in Bulgaria and your corporation verification mechanism,
:20:24. > :20:28.it is full of jargon, but the message is Bulgaria has to do a lot
:20:29. > :20:35.more and make much more progress against corruption, organised crime,
:20:36. > :20:39.and that Bulgaria is failing. Well, if you read carefully the report,
:20:40. > :20:47.there are areas where Bulgaria is improving. But of course we still
:20:48. > :20:52.have a lot to do. I think on anticorruption, pretty soon the good
:20:53. > :20:57.news will come in Bulgaria. But it is a tough battle. Your government
:20:58. > :21:02.tried to pass a law creating a new anticorruption authority and it was
:21:03. > :21:09.rejected in Parliament. Yes. What does that tell us about the
:21:10. > :21:12.systemic...? It is too strong maybe. I think they have been fears in
:21:13. > :21:20.Parliament, and actually I introduced the bill, so they have
:21:21. > :21:29.been kind of... There is reluctance to accept the law as I proposed and
:21:30. > :21:34.the Council of ministers proposed because the parliamentarians thought
:21:35. > :21:38.it might be which hunting, and this will be used as a political tool,
:21:39. > :21:42.which never crossed my mind, of course. But now we have a second
:21:43. > :21:47.attempt, and I hope this time the law will pass. Your president made a
:21:48. > :21:56.speech earlier this year expressing big ambitions. That we have aspire
:21:57. > :22:00.in Bulgaria to be part of the EU, part of the Schengen, in front and
:22:01. > :22:04.centre in the heart of Europe, but it seems to me you are not on track
:22:05. > :22:09.to achieve any of that. No, I think the opposite. We are on track to
:22:10. > :22:14.achieve all of it. I believe Bulgaria is more than ready to join
:22:15. > :22:18.Schengen, and we are ready to protect the European border, our
:22:19. > :22:23.border. We are quite ready with all of the figures about our economy and
:22:24. > :22:26.have been quite ready to join the euro, which is part of that treaty,
:22:27. > :22:37.actually, and this will bring stability. We have a currency board,
:22:38. > :22:44.and we implement the rules of discipline of the euro area. So I
:22:45. > :22:48.think it is quite manageable in the next few years. So you want to fully
:22:49. > :22:51.integrate in the European Union, and you are in London when the British
:22:52. > :22:57.are occupied with the decision whether to leave the European Union
:22:58. > :23:00.altogether. If we don't leave, David Cameron says he has negotiated a
:23:01. > :23:04.deal which leases out of some of those integration projects. --
:23:05. > :23:12.leaves us out. Do you think it is important written stays in? Yes, I
:23:13. > :23:22.do. Why? -- written. I appreciate what you have in terms of experience
:23:23. > :23:27.and to build panic -- diplomatic skills, and a similar market. I like
:23:28. > :23:35.the idea of the single market. Not just to trade among the countries. I
:23:36. > :23:38.think we are, you are, one of the forces for good in the European
:23:39. > :23:45.Union, and I hope the British people will say yes when the moment comes.
:23:46. > :23:47.Meglena Kuneva, thank you so much for joining me on HARDtalk. Thank
:23:48. > :24:15.you. Well,
:24:16. > :24:18.there is a lot happening on the