0:00:11 > 0:00:12Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15For more than five years the words Greece and crisis
0:00:15 > 0:00:17have been inseparable.
0:00:17 > 0:00:19The question isn't what crisis, but which crisis.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22Greeks are simultaneously wrestling with the enormous burden posed
0:00:22 > 0:00:26by mass migration from Turkey, and the effort to secure a long-term
0:00:26 > 0:00:32fix for their stricken, debt-laden economy.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36My guest today is Greece's minister for labour and social security,
0:00:36 > 0:00:39George Katrougalos.
0:00:39 > 0:00:43Is there light at the end of the two dark tunnels his country is in?
0:00:43 > 0:00:44George Katrougalos, welcome to HARDtalk from your position
0:01:12 > 0:01:14George Katrougalos, welcome to HARDtalk from your position
0:01:15 > 0:01:18there in Athens.
0:01:18 > 0:01:20I'm very happy to be with you.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23Well, let's start with a question reacting to what we've seen
0:01:23 > 0:01:25in the last few days.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28Is your government satisfied with the EU deal, the outline deal,
0:01:28 > 0:01:30that has been put together with Turkey to deal
0:01:30 > 0:01:36with the migration crisis?
0:01:36 > 0:01:39Well, we are still working to find a solution.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42It is clear that it is not a solution that Greece to become
0:01:42 > 0:01:46a kind of warehouse of abandoned souls, of thousands of immigrants
0:01:46 > 0:01:50that are going to be in a black box without any way out to Europe.
0:01:50 > 0:01:54On the other hand, it is clearly not a Greek problem,
0:01:54 > 0:01:58it's a European problem.
0:01:58 > 0:02:05Not just in the sense that Greece alone cannot handle the humanitarian
0:02:05 > 0:02:11crisis, but also in the sense that we are speaking
0:02:11 > 0:02:14about which kind of values Europe is going to respect.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17It's about the future of Europe after all.
0:02:17 > 0:02:18Yeah.
0:02:18 > 0:02:22You say we are not going to allow ourselves to become a warehouse
0:02:22 > 0:02:25for desperate and lost souls, but it seems to me that day by day
0:02:25 > 0:02:27the risk of that being the case increases for you.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30Every day we have new governments, today Macedonia, in the recent hours
0:02:30 > 0:02:33we've also heard from Slovenia and Serbia,
0:02:33 > 0:02:38they are all closing their borders to this migrant traffic,
0:02:38 > 0:02:41which means more and more you are going to be the bottleneck.
0:02:41 > 0:02:47You're absolutely right.
0:02:47 > 0:02:53That's why I was speaking before about the choice of values.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55Is it solidarity that's going to prevail, or the unilateral
0:02:55 > 0:02:59let's say solutions that try to construct
0:03:00 > 0:03:01fortresses, national fortresses?
0:03:01 > 0:03:05It is certainly not be methods that Europe would like to send
0:03:05 > 0:03:13to the next generation.
0:03:13 > 0:03:15Whether you like it or not, that's what's happening,
0:03:15 > 0:03:17that's the reality.
0:03:17 > 0:03:21Well, I think it is not a good idea to succumb to such a reality.
0:03:21 > 0:03:22We must change this reality.
0:03:22 > 0:03:26If you look more carefully at the last statement of the summit
0:03:26 > 0:03:29in Brussels, the initial phrasing that now the borders at the Balkans
0:03:29 > 0:03:34has been closed has been omitted, because that would be a unilateral
0:03:34 > 0:03:36decision without reference to previous decisions
0:03:36 > 0:03:41of the European organs.
0:03:41 > 0:03:46I think we're still trying to find a solution.
0:03:46 > 0:03:50A solution is not closing ours elves behind walls, it's not
0:03:50 > 0:03:53going to work, it's not worked in the States with this huge wall
0:03:53 > 0:03:59that Donald Trump thinks is going to resolve all issues
0:03:59 > 0:04:01of migration, it's not going to work in Europe.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05The point is this is in the context of the deal, the so-called deal,
0:04:05 > 0:04:08which isn't really a deal, with Turkey.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10The idea being that no more do you allow the migration
0:04:10 > 0:04:13across Europe towards the West, you start the process of putting
0:04:13 > 0:04:15those people back into Turkey.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19They call it the one for one deal where "irregular migrants" will be
0:04:19 > 0:04:23returned to Turkey and for every Syrian irregular migrant that goes
0:04:23 > 0:04:27back to Turkey, a Syrian will be taken through formal processes
0:04:27 > 0:04:32by the European Union member states and given a home
0:04:32 > 0:04:35inside the European Union.
0:04:35 > 0:04:40That's the idea, but do you trust the Turks,
0:04:40 > 0:04:46amongst others, to make that deal work?
0:04:46 > 0:04:50It's a very complicated issue because it has many overlapping
0:04:50 > 0:04:52dimensions, ethical, we have sort of discussed that,
0:04:52 > 0:04:55legal, there's the Geneva Convention, it's not allowed
0:04:55 > 0:04:58according to this convention to send back people without examining
0:04:58 > 0:05:01individually their requests for asylum.
0:05:01 > 0:05:06And there are also practical issues.
0:05:06 > 0:05:10I agree with the general idea that we must build capacity
0:05:10 > 0:05:14in Turkey in order to receive refugees.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17Because at the end of the day, we must have in mind that these
0:05:17 > 0:05:22people belong to a country, Syria, and it would be in their best
0:05:22 > 0:05:27interests to be close to that country.
0:05:27 > 0:05:33In this case, when the civil war ends, they will be
0:05:33 > 0:05:35in a position to return.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38So I don't object to the solution that Turkey must play
0:05:38 > 0:05:41a more crucial role.
0:05:41 > 0:05:46But after all, the devil is hidden in the details.
0:05:46 > 0:05:48We must work along these lines in order exactly not
0:05:48 > 0:05:52to violate our legal responsibilities under the Geneva
0:05:52 > 0:05:55Convention.
0:05:55 > 0:06:01And also the ethical, moral responsibilities we have.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04You talk about devil in the detail, my goodness, there's lots of devils
0:06:04 > 0:06:05in this detail!
0:06:05 > 0:06:08We will talk about the law in a minute but you mentioned
0:06:08 > 0:06:11practical issues.
0:06:11 > 0:06:13Let's face it, there are tens of thousands of migrants
0:06:13 > 0:06:16on your territory today, we know there are 13,000 that
0:06:16 > 0:06:17are camped out in terrible, atrocious conditions
0:06:17 > 0:06:20on the border with Macedonia.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24How on earth is the Greek government going to round up those people,
0:06:24 > 0:06:29if that's what you're supposed to do under this deal,
0:06:29 > 0:06:33and make sure they all go back to Turkey.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35Without the use of force and threats it seems to me impossible
0:06:35 > 0:06:41for you to do that?
0:06:41 > 0:06:44Well, it's not our obligation to send them back to Turkey,
0:06:44 > 0:06:49I mean the existing 30,000 or 35,000 in Greece.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52They are still valid, the previous decisions
0:06:52 > 0:06:56of the European organs that provide for resettlement,
0:06:56 > 0:07:03the localisation in the jargon of Brussels, for these people.
0:07:03 > 0:07:05According to our population, if the whole of Europe
0:07:05 > 0:07:09is going to receive 1 million refugees, we could receive
0:07:09 > 0:07:12and integrate 30,000 of them, this is the analogy,
0:07:12 > 0:07:14practically 2% is the population of Greece, vis-a-vis the whole
0:07:14 > 0:07:20population of Europe.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22It's clear we cannot handle all these massive flows
0:07:22 > 0:07:24coming to us.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28That's why I was referring to the necessary solidarity
0:07:28 > 0:07:32of the other European states, which is not just a moral,
0:07:32 > 0:07:35it's a legal obligation under under the European treaties.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38I'm not sure from that answer, what are you telling me
0:07:38 > 0:07:41is going to happen for example to the 30,000 people currently
0:07:41 > 0:07:45in the Idomeni camp close to the Macedonian border.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48What will happen to them?
0:07:48 > 0:07:51First we are trying to assure they are going to remain
0:07:51 > 0:07:53in conditions that are humanly accessible.
0:07:53 > 0:07:59You are absolutely right, the conditions of life for these
0:07:59 > 0:08:04people are atrocious.
0:08:04 > 0:08:11Idomeni was never meant to be a place where these people...
0:08:11 > 0:08:14They have gathered there as they have gathered in The Jungle
0:08:14 > 0:08:16of Calais hoping they will cross the borders, exactly as in France
0:08:16 > 0:08:20they are hoping to cross the sea and arrive in the UK.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23We must insist that these people are going to be treated humanely,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26and then find a way out to Europe, because they don't want
0:08:26 > 0:08:36to stay in Greece.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41Minister, you're not...
0:08:41 > 0:08:42I understand your points.
0:08:42 > 0:08:45You're painting for me a picture of what you believe should happen
0:08:45 > 0:08:49in Europe but it doesn't seem to me to bear any connection to reality.
0:08:49 > 0:08:51You talk about Europeans stepping up to the plate
0:08:51 > 0:08:52and accepting their collective responsibility.
0:08:52 > 0:08:55We know last year, the EU Commission put forward a proposal
0:08:55 > 0:08:56to redistribute by quotas 160,000 refugees.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59Hardly any of those quotas have been filled.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01I spoke to the Bulgarian Deputy Prime Minister the other day,
0:09:01 > 0:09:05her country promised to take thousands of refugees.
0:09:05 > 0:09:10You know how many they actually took?
0:09:10 > 0:09:11Two.
0:09:11 > 0:09:15And the Hungarians are saying they won't take any at all.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19So don't live in a fantasy world, live in a real world.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21The real world is there aren't going to be quotas acceptable
0:09:21 > 0:09:26to most Europeans.
0:09:26 > 0:09:28I don't agree with you and I have two points.
0:09:28 > 0:09:32First, that it remains a legal obligation for the other states
0:09:32 > 0:09:36to respect a decision that has never been implemented.
0:09:36 > 0:09:42These 160,000 immigrants are still, in theory, waiting to find places
0:09:42 > 0:09:45in other European countries.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48Second, it is not easy, it is not feasible to use with force
0:09:48 > 0:09:52the number of refugees that are now in Greece.
0:09:52 > 0:09:59I have just read a recent statement from the Home Office
0:09:59 > 0:10:04and the Secretary of State in the UK that even in the UK it is not
0:10:04 > 0:10:10possible to expel the illegal immigrants there.
0:10:10 > 0:10:14So if you cannot handle the much more fewer numbers of emigrants
0:10:14 > 0:10:17in the UK, how can you imagine we can do that alone
0:10:17 > 0:10:22without European support?
0:10:22 > 0:10:24The thing is, I don't imagine you can.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27So many of the words that have been spoken since that Brussels summit
0:10:27 > 0:10:32are wishful rather than practical and real.
0:10:32 > 0:10:34That's my question to you, how Greece is going to manage
0:10:34 > 0:10:37when so many people are saying, "Oh, this is the idea,
0:10:37 > 0:10:41the deal is going to work," there are lots of people,
0:10:41 > 0:10:43including the Secretary General of the Council of Europe,
0:10:43 > 0:10:47including the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, Saying it would be
0:10:47 > 0:10:51illegal for you and other European authorities to force a mass
0:10:51 > 0:10:53expulsion of the migrants from your territory.
0:10:53 > 0:10:59It would simply be illegal.
0:10:59 > 0:11:05I fully agree, that's why we're not going to proceed in such a way.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08I mentioned before that according to the Geneva Convention,
0:11:08 > 0:11:10that is the push back without examining individual
0:11:10 > 0:11:14demands is illegal.
0:11:14 > 0:11:18I mentioned also that it is also immoral.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21I think we must distinguish between realism and cynicism.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25It's a cynical decision to say that's it, Greece must face
0:11:25 > 0:11:29the problems, its problems, alone.
0:11:29 > 0:11:34Imagine that is undermining simultaneously two things.
0:11:34 > 0:11:39The European project as a whole, essentially the idea of common
0:11:39 > 0:11:41solidarity and common projections for the future.
0:11:41 > 0:11:45And secondly, even more importantly, the understanding
0:11:45 > 0:11:48we have about ourselves.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51It's not about Syrians, it's about us, what kind of people,
0:11:51 > 0:11:56what kind of Europeans and human beings do we want to be?
0:11:56 > 0:11:59The problem is partly you're assuming a solidarity from the rest
0:11:59 > 0:12:03of the European Union with Greece, and I would put it to you,
0:12:03 > 0:12:05over the last few years, and certainly last few months,
0:12:05 > 0:12:08the notion of solidarity from the rest of Europe with Greece
0:12:08 > 0:12:12is quite tenuous, not least because in recent times we've had
0:12:12 > 0:12:17the Austrian government and a few other governments too suggesting
0:12:17 > 0:12:22you guys are the problem because you're incapable
0:12:22 > 0:12:25of protecting your own and Europe's borders, and therefore you should be
0:12:25 > 0:12:29cut out of the Schengen freedom of movement area.
0:12:29 > 0:12:33So many Europeans are pointing the finger of blame directly at you.
0:12:33 > 0:12:38There are xenophobic reactions, I don't deny that.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41But first we must make clear that maritime borders are not the same
0:12:41 > 0:12:49as land borders.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52We are facing a situation in which boats full of women
0:12:52 > 0:12:53and children are coming.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57The only solution to stop them before entering our land is to drown
0:12:57 > 0:13:00them, to sink the boats, drown children and women,
0:13:00 > 0:13:03that's already happening, many hundreds have already been drowned.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06Is it the solution we must face?
0:13:06 > 0:13:07How can we live by that?
0:13:07 > 0:13:10Secondly, countries have adopted this solution are sliding down
0:13:10 > 0:13:16a very slippery slope.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19We have seen in the recent elections in Slovakia for instance,
0:13:19 > 0:13:21despite the efforts of the Prime Minister to adopt some
0:13:21 > 0:13:24of these xenophobic agendas of the extreme right wingers,
0:13:24 > 0:13:26it is the neofascist parties that basically have profited.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28It has gained closer to 10%.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30For the first time it is in the Slovakian Parliament.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34So, whatever we choose to be, it has clear repercussions not just
0:13:34 > 0:13:38to what is going to happen in Greece but to what is going to happen
0:13:38 > 0:13:43in European countries, in your places, and you must choose,
0:13:43 > 0:13:51you must have to choose if you're going to have an option of,
0:13:51 > 0:13:54let's say, solidarity, the future of all Europe,
0:13:54 > 0:14:04or a version of neofascism and xenophobia.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12Solidarity is in very short supply, not least with you in Greece,
0:14:12 > 0:14:17but let me ask you about a different aspect of this crisis and then
0:14:17 > 0:14:20I want to move on to your economy.
0:14:20 > 0:14:22Finally, on the migration question, with the European Union appears
0:14:22 > 0:14:26to be doing is offering a huge number of carrots to Turkey
0:14:26 > 0:14:32in exchange for agreement to this one for one swap of refugees.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34These include fast tracking of their European Union membership
0:14:34 > 0:14:42application, also visa free travel for all Turks by the summer.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45It is fair to say you in Greece have a somewhat difficult
0:14:45 > 0:14:48relationship, traditionally, with the government in Turkey.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51Do you have real confidence in the Turks' good faith
0:14:51 > 0:14:56at this time?
0:14:56 > 0:15:02Listen, our Prime Minister has been yesterday in Turkey,
0:15:02 > 0:15:07exactly, trying to find the devil in the details.
0:15:07 > 0:15:09And promote a viable solution to this draft project.
0:15:09 > 0:15:17There are two things.
0:15:17 > 0:15:22One, we should not make concessions to undemocratic solutions in Turkey,
0:15:22 > 0:15:24because we know there are problems there with freedom of press
0:15:24 > 0:15:31and other democratic liberties and freedoms.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34But Turkey is a key factor for the settlement of this problem.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37So, we must work with the Turkish government, but having also in mind
0:15:37 > 0:15:42that to have European values that we must also
0:15:42 > 0:15:46cherish and protect.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48In a word, do you trust the government of Prime Minister
0:15:48 > 0:15:52Erdogan?
0:15:52 > 0:15:55It is the government of Turkey and it is with them
0:15:55 > 0:16:01that we must work together.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04There is nobody else there.
0:16:04 > 0:16:06That wasn't a yes.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09That was very much not a yes from you.
0:16:09 > 0:16:10Well...
0:16:10 > 0:16:12It is a yes.
0:16:12 > 0:16:14We cannot export democracy to other countries,
0:16:14 > 0:16:19even if we would like to see a more democratic and more
0:16:19 > 0:16:21European-friendly environment to them.
0:16:21 > 0:16:26What is valid for Iraq is valid for Turkey as well.
0:16:26 > 0:16:30We must touch upon that as well.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32You are in Athens today and so are a very important group
0:16:32 > 0:16:35of visitors from the IMF, the eurozone and the
0:16:35 > 0:16:38European Central Bank, all of whom have a responsibility
0:16:38 > 0:16:44to monitor the third bailout.
0:16:44 > 0:16:50It is all very confusing, but basically the Greek economy
0:16:50 > 0:16:53is still in a terrible mess, you still desperately need tens
0:16:53 > 0:16:55of billions of euros in support from outside lenders
0:16:55 > 0:16:58and they are saying, you are not going to get the third
0:16:58 > 0:17:02bailout completed unless you deliver new structural reforms,
0:17:02 > 0:17:03much greater reforms than your government
0:17:03 > 0:17:04is currently promising.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07Are you prepared now to say on HARDtalk that you are prepared
0:17:07 > 0:17:10for new structural reform?
0:17:10 > 0:17:13First of all, it is true what you have just said
0:17:13 > 0:17:17about the visitors.
0:17:17 > 0:17:27I am going to meet them after just an hour or so.
0:17:28 > 0:17:30In the framework of the negotiations we have with them,
0:17:30 > 0:17:32I have two remarks.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35First is that this bailout programme was not mainly aimed to protect
0:17:35 > 0:17:39the Greek economy, but from contaminating the eurozone.
0:17:39 > 0:17:45In early 2010 and even recently.
0:17:45 > 0:17:49My second remark is that it is proven by the fact that only a very
0:17:49 > 0:17:51small percentage of these billions are put into the Greek economy,
0:17:51 > 0:17:56about 80-90% is going back to the lenders.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59It was basically the European, the German and French banks that
0:17:59 > 0:18:04have been saved.
0:18:04 > 0:18:08Let's not get too stuck on that.
0:18:08 > 0:18:12These representatives want you to go further with your pension reforms.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15Your government has basically tried to avoid cutting pensions further
0:18:15 > 0:18:19by making some major changes to social insurance and payroll
0:18:19 > 0:18:22taxes that the message from the lenders is,
0:18:22 > 0:18:25you have to do more on pensions.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28Are you willing?
0:18:28 > 0:18:30We are very much willing to transform our social insurance
0:18:30 > 0:18:37system, exactly because it was not an efficient one, even in the past.
0:18:37 > 0:18:42This is the message I'm going to convey to you,
0:18:42 > 0:18:44that first of all we're going to respect our commitments,
0:18:44 > 0:18:49the agreement of July was for us, a first compromise, but it
0:18:49 > 0:18:52has our signature and we must respect our signature.
0:18:52 > 0:18:57But on the other hand, we found that if we just proceed
0:18:57 > 0:19:03to these engagements without trying to include them in a more broad
0:19:03 > 0:19:08framework of reforms, we would just apply neoliberal
0:19:08 > 0:19:13policies with which we do not agree.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16So, what we are trying to do in terms of reform, we're
0:19:16 > 0:19:20going to respect our engagement to reduce by 1% of the GDP,
0:19:20 > 0:19:23the expenditure.
0:19:23 > 0:19:28Not only because it is within what they want,
0:19:28 > 0:19:33but because we have huge deficits, we have lost 25% of our national
0:19:33 > 0:19:36wealth since 2010.
0:19:36 > 0:19:37But instead of just following the guidelines,
0:19:37 > 0:19:42it is crucial that instead of just following the guidelines of the EU,
0:19:42 > 0:19:45we are trying to apply sweeping reform that also includes social
0:19:45 > 0:19:51justice, a national pension that will be financed by taxes,
0:19:51 > 0:19:56not contributions, for example, that will guarantee a better
0:19:56 > 0:20:05redistribution of wealth within our system.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10Right, now, minister, you have laid out what you are trying
0:20:10 > 0:20:12but the trouble is you seem to have
0:20:12 > 0:20:14achieved the worst of both worlds.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16Because with your version of reform, the international lenders don't
0:20:16 > 0:20:18believe it goes far enough while your own people,
0:20:18 > 0:20:21Syriza supporters who put you in power are furious
0:20:21 > 0:20:25with you because they believe you are now betraying their interests.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27We've had farmers on the streets with demonstrations,
0:20:27 > 0:20:30the self-employed claiming you are killing them with your hikes
0:20:30 > 0:20:33and social insurance charges for the self-employed.
0:20:33 > 0:20:39The people of Greece no longer believe in Syriza,
0:20:39 > 0:20:42that is the problem.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45Well, first of all, it is not true that with all our lenders,
0:20:45 > 0:20:51we have strong disagreements.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53Truth is, with the Europeans we are very close to finding
0:20:53 > 0:20:59mutually accepted compromise.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02It is the IMF which insists on further measures and it is now
0:21:02 > 0:21:06the IMF that is isolated, not us.
0:21:06 > 0:21:11There is a huge difference.
0:21:11 > 0:21:16CROSSTALK.
0:21:16 > 0:21:20You need the IMF more than they need you and let's not get stuck on them,
0:21:20 > 0:21:22let's talk about the Greek people.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25I never thought we would see your government be assailed by street
0:21:25 > 0:21:27protests in the same way past governments were,
0:21:27 > 0:21:29but now the people of Greece are saying to you that
0:21:29 > 0:21:35you have the worst of every world.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38You have bowed to the international pressure, you are in austerity
0:21:38 > 0:21:40and your economy is frankly in worse shape than ever.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42It is exactly the opposite, what we are doing.
0:21:42 > 0:21:46It is true that we did not deliver as fast as we have promised
0:21:46 > 0:21:49and it is also true that we had to do a very painful
0:21:49 > 0:21:50compromise for us in July.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53But I remind you that after that, we asked the people by new elections
0:21:53 > 0:22:02to reiterate their confidence in us.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04It is now really the worst moment of our effort, exactly
0:22:04 > 0:22:07because we have to take measures and the results are not visible
0:22:07 > 0:22:14to the Greek society.
0:22:16 > 0:22:18You are doing your best to sound optimistic with me,
0:22:18 > 0:22:20but you're also quite a frank politician.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23Isn't it time to admit, with your national debt at over 180%
0:22:23 > 0:22:26of GDP, which is clearly unsustainable, with unemployment
0:22:26 > 0:22:30that is still around 25%.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33Isn't it time to say, look, let's cut our losses,
0:22:33 > 0:22:41default on our debts and get out of the eurozone?
0:22:42 > 0:22:47We have the same data but different conclusions.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50From this data, I have the conclusion that the austerity
0:22:50 > 0:22:52policies, the five that were applied last year were disasters,
0:22:52 > 0:23:02and we must change the makes of these policies.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06It is exactly what we're trying to do in a very difficult situation,
0:23:06 > 0:23:09because we have signed this MOU.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12On the other hand, we think it is possible to see
0:23:12 > 0:23:13a different Europe.
0:23:13 > 0:23:17Still, this is the discussion we had last July, I believe the real choice
0:23:17 > 0:23:19is not a national one, it is between different
0:23:19 > 0:23:20parts of Europe.
0:23:20 > 0:23:25Different projects of Europe.
0:23:25 > 0:23:29One considers austerity the only possible solution.
0:23:29 > 0:23:34There is another alternative for a social Europe,
0:23:34 > 0:23:42more faithful to its social European model that we used to cherish.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46That is the choice for you but for right now, we have to end.
0:23:46 > 0:23:47We are out of time.
0:23:47 > 0:23:48Thank you so much, Minister George Katrougalos
0:23:48 > 0:23:55for joining me from Athens, thanks a lot.