:00:11. > :00:23.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. The whole world is aware of
:00:24. > :00:27.the fact that the movie industry is disproportionately white and male,
:00:28. > :00:32.thanks to the Oscars this year. But, maybe things are changing. I guess
:00:33. > :00:36.today is one of your's direct does, Susanne Bier, who already has an
:00:37. > :00:45.Oscar and a reputation which brings in offers from the major US studios
:00:46. > :00:47.-- directors. How hard has been to challenge those Hollywood
:00:48. > :01:18.stereotypes? Susanne Bier, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:19. > :01:25.Thank you. You have been making movies for quite a long time now,
:01:26. > :01:32.would you say your approach has transformed over the years? I think
:01:33. > :01:40.experience does change your approach a bit. My whole approach has been
:01:41. > :01:43.basically the same all along, I am deeply interested in human
:01:44. > :01:49.relations. I think that has come out in my films and it still does. If I
:01:50. > :01:57.were to ask you to define the core, would you put the intimacy of
:01:58. > :02:03.personal relationships? Yes, the space between human beings. Rather
:02:04. > :02:08.than a commitment to a certain style, a lavish production values or
:02:09. > :02:13.any particular genre? It's the humanity that gets you? It is
:02:14. > :02:20.thought of the exciting things that happen between human beings. How
:02:21. > :02:24.that reflects in the physical presence. Like, what happens when
:02:25. > :02:31.you sit down? What is actually on your mind? I find that deeply
:02:32. > :02:37.interesting. That brings me to consider your career. You first came
:02:38. > :02:50.to real prominence in Denmark and Europe as part of the School of
:02:51. > :02:57.Danish filmmaking which was so is bad, saw a real life. There was no
:02:58. > :03:02.lighting, no exotic locations, it was about the here and now and being
:03:03. > :03:10.real. Is that still something which means a lot to you? I think that to
:03:11. > :03:15.be set off austerity rules, you strip any kind of deal making from
:03:16. > :03:20.any icing on the cake. You get rid of the artifice? You do. You only
:03:21. > :03:23.have the storyline and the characters. That brings me back to
:03:24. > :03:29.what you said at the beginning, it's about the human is that you really
:03:30. > :03:36.care about, that is what your films are all about? I actually did come
:03:37. > :03:40.to prominence with a comedy which came before this. I came from
:03:41. > :03:53.somewhere else, something much broader. Why did you get into
:03:54. > :04:02.dogma. --? You are the founders of .my, you now has a manifesto which
:04:03. > :04:05.said you mess about, the camera has to be hand-held, there can be
:04:06. > :04:10.nothing but contemporary settings, you can't have props or create sets?
:04:11. > :04:18.It sounds boring when you talk about it like that. But you are totally
:04:19. > :04:22.into it at the time? I was, it is essential storytelling. Some of the
:04:23. > :04:25.more interesting movies of the last 20 years have come out of .my. I
:04:26. > :04:32.wouldn't want to continue with it, because I do enjoy the view
:04:33. > :04:38.storytelling elements of the whole movie, but it did create probably
:04:39. > :04:44.five amazing movie. You talk about breakthrough moments, you've had a
:04:45. > :04:52.few. Winning a foreign language Oscar, any director's career has to
:04:53. > :05:00.be a big moment? You cracked it, you won an Oscar. It's about a Danish
:05:01. > :05:10.medic who works in Africa. It is perhaps a bit like sedan? He has
:05:11. > :05:16.huge problems back in his home life in Denmark. We look at him being
:05:17. > :05:22.faced in a dilemma -- Sudan. He is facing a warlord who has a terrible
:05:23. > :05:26.injury, he knows this man is responsible for terrible atrocities.
:05:27. > :05:50.I don't want you to cut it off. I can try. You can't have any weapons
:05:51. > :06:09.in the camp. I defy that! No. Weapons and cars have got to be far
:06:10. > :06:20.away from the camp. SPEAKING SUDANESE. This big man, he's the one
:06:21. > :06:29.who cuts the pregnant women. He's the master. It's a harrowing movie,
:06:30. > :06:33.and it's painted on a big canvas, in Africa as well as Denmark. Did it
:06:34. > :06:42.feel like a real change for you, a real change of style and setting?
:06:43. > :06:48.Africa is very special, it was very special filming in Africa. It is a
:06:49. > :06:55.slightly bigger film, but I think I built it up. After the Wedding was
:06:56. > :07:00.also partly shot in India. I did do a few films which were shot in
:07:01. > :07:09.several places. I use the fact that they were shot in different places
:07:10. > :07:13.to juxtapose the two societies. I am still preoccupied with that. Before
:07:14. > :07:18.we finish looking back and the transitions are you made after
:07:19. > :07:30.dogma, I want to ask one more specific thing about dogma. Lovelorn
:07:31. > :07:37.trio was one of the founders of the dogma style. In 2011, after you won
:07:38. > :07:43.be foreign language Oscar, he made what most people regarded as a very
:07:44. > :07:53.offensive attack upon you and your tuition is, and even some bizarre
:07:54. > :07:59.remarks about your Jewish heritage. You did not respond, but you knew
:08:00. > :08:04.him and admired him. How did you feel about what he did? -- Lars von
:08:05. > :08:13.Trier. The seniors, certain attacks you don't want to respond to because
:08:14. > :08:19.they are so utterly repository of, and somehow, I must admit that
:08:20. > :08:26.somehow I found those remarks are a positive and stupid and in no way
:08:27. > :08:34.felt compelled to react. Hurtful? This was a man you had grown up with
:08:35. > :08:43.professionally. Yes, hurtful, but I must admit that I did have... I
:08:44. > :08:49.thought it was ridiculous. If you react to any aggression, you also
:08:50. > :08:54.become somehow vulnerable. I didn't particularly want to feel
:08:55. > :09:04.vulnerable. Have you spoken to him ever since? I have. Did you ask him
:09:05. > :09:11.why? I didn't. I didn't want to. I don't, any sort of racist comment I
:09:12. > :09:16.have no excuse for, no time for. No excuse for any kind of racism.
:09:17. > :09:29.Obviously things which concern my person. I just don't think that
:09:30. > :09:37.anything needs to be confronted. I have not had a conversation with
:09:38. > :09:41.Lars von Trier about it. OK. That's between you and him. Let us now talk
:09:42. > :09:46.about structures and away the film industry works. There has been so
:09:47. > :09:55.much focus in the last year or two on the inability of the Hollywood
:09:56. > :10:01.industry to reflect properly the way society is in terms of the on-screen
:10:02. > :10:05.and offscreen involvement of women and ethnic sonorities in filmmaking.
:10:06. > :10:09.You are a very successful woman filmmaker. Should we take your
:10:10. > :10:15.success as a sign that things are changing for the positive? I have
:10:16. > :10:19.been very fortunate and privilege, I have been doing the movies I really
:10:20. > :10:24.wanted to do. Lots of women are not as fortunate. It is not because they
:10:25. > :10:31.lack talent, it's because the industry does not invite... It
:10:32. > :10:39.doesn't invite talented women to do what they should be doing. Why we do
:10:40. > :10:46.because it's so inherently... The thinking is so inherently
:10:47. > :10:51.conservative. I think it is two different things. Firstly, the kind
:10:52. > :10:56.of movies do not reflect the diversity of our society, which they
:10:57. > :11:05.should. Otherwise, movies as an artform will die out. It might work
:11:06. > :11:11.as a commercial thing, but as an artform, it doesn't paint to be
:11:12. > :11:24.diverse of society. As an artform? Yes. If you look at movies which
:11:25. > :11:32.should be blockbusters, in 2015, 7% were made by women. I think if you
:11:33. > :11:42.look at those kind of, even the iconic blockbuster films, they won't
:11:43. > :11:52.be left -- less interesting having been made by women, all made by
:11:53. > :11:58.nonwhite, non- heterosexual man. The very stereotypical and profoundly
:11:59. > :12:04.ignorant view is that men are more inclined to and possibly better at
:12:05. > :12:10.making movies with car chases and monsters. I don't think that's
:12:11. > :12:15.right. I think any woman director who really wants to make a movie
:12:16. > :12:19.like that is going to be just as good and possibly add something else
:12:20. > :12:23.to it. I think it's a very conservative point of view. Do you
:12:24. > :12:29.want to make that kind of movie. I would love to, the Right one. You
:12:30. > :12:33.have a great reputation in Hollywood, why aren't you going to
:12:34. > :12:39.the studios and saying, you want me to make a film, it might be a
:12:40. > :12:45.compelling emotional drama. I want to do something different! -- right.
:12:46. > :12:52.Here is the thing, I will do one, but I won't do it until I like the
:12:53. > :13:02.script. I don't think it content needs to go down because it is a
:13:03. > :13:13.blockbuster. To me, it needs to have substance and be elegant. Write it
:13:14. > :13:18.yourself! May be a. If we want to take -- if women want to make
:13:19. > :13:23.blockbusters, they need to start making some. All the blockbusters
:13:24. > :13:26.are like, they are going to get more and more boring. You look at movies
:13:27. > :13:32.like The Hunger Games, big commercial movies. It has very
:13:33. > :13:39.strong female content. I think there is a kind of very innovative element
:13:40. > :13:44.in those. But there are not many. How proactive should women be?
:13:45. > :13:52.Jennifer Lawrence has made a huge point of the enormous pay
:13:53. > :14:00.differential in Hollywood. The options might include top stars such
:14:01. > :14:04.as her saying she will not make the movie until she is paid the same as
:14:05. > :14:14.her male counterparts. You would be doing the same in terms of director
:14:15. > :14:28.fees? Good idea. I'm being serious! I know you. -- I know you are. Yes,
:14:29. > :14:36.I will. I know it is different. I think unfortunately a lot of women
:14:37. > :14:40.have had a slightly more hesitant... Exactly. The traditional
:14:41. > :14:44.view is that women are less aggressive, less assertive, less
:14:45. > :14:50.determined to look after themselves than men are. I just find it a
:14:51. > :14:54.little bit, if this conflict becomes about my salary, I think it is a
:14:55. > :14:57.detour. I don't think this conflict is about my salary. I think it's
:14:58. > :15:06.about something really profound in our society. It's about a very
:15:07. > :15:11.conservative way of thinking about gender. I don't really want it to be
:15:12. > :15:19.a discussion about my personal salary. Let me flickered around into
:15:20. > :15:21.a different direction, still thinking about proactive
:15:22. > :15:25.decision-making you and others could make and also one might call it
:15:26. > :15:28.affirmative action, for example, there is a problem not just on
:15:29. > :15:31.screen and the director credit but also in some of the key professions
:15:32. > :15:37.in your industry like cinematographer and editing. Do you
:15:38. > :15:41.see it as incumbent upon you as quite an influential director to
:15:42. > :15:46.make a point of trying to work with females in a photographers, or
:15:47. > :15:54.indeed female editors - being proactive about that? I have been
:15:55. > :16:02.quite a few times in film schools, excepting students, and I have been
:16:03. > :16:05.very key particularly with when there are very few female director
:16:06. > :16:13.of photography. I think that is the way to do it. I think it is sort of
:16:14. > :16:17.saying, I want to work with a female director of photography, I need to
:16:18. > :16:19.work with the right director of photography, like the production or
:16:20. > :16:27.the studio needs to find the right director for a project. You can't
:16:28. > :16:34.say that thing is necessarily, that specific thing necessarily needs a
:16:35. > :16:39.woman, or for that sake, aiming at a minority, but as a general thing you
:16:40. > :16:44.have to totally work for it. Do you understand the difference? Yes, I do
:16:45. > :16:46.understand the difference. Interesting there are in
:16:47. > :16:52.initiatives, like we do it together, a bunch of influential actors and
:16:53. > :16:57.women in the movie industry who have got together to try to push
:16:58. > :17:00.productions which are driven by women. I wonder whether again you
:17:01. > :17:05.might be interested in joining that kind of initiative? Yes, I would be
:17:06. > :17:10.interested. I would also be interested in joining an initiative
:17:11. > :17:15.where storytelling, where stories which are, at which sort of
:17:16. > :17:21.address, which are more interesting for women, I mean, all of that, all
:17:22. > :17:25.things which have to do with the elements of society which reflects
:17:26. > :17:28.that women are half of the population, even a bit more, which
:17:29. > :17:36.is not reflected in the world of movies. Nor in TV yet but TV is
:17:37. > :17:41.better. Yes. Do you think there is a way to define subject matter and the
:17:42. > :17:47.treatment of stories, where you can say that would appeal more to women
:17:48. > :17:52.than men? Can you be that gender oriented in the way you feel about
:17:53. > :17:59.stories and storytelling? I am sure that if you go to the studios, they
:18:00. > :18:03.will have it, you will go to a meeting and they will say, this
:18:04. > :18:13.doesn't interest men, Inc will interest women. I would call that
:18:14. > :18:16.stereotyping. I know. There is stereotyping -- it will interest
:18:17. > :18:20.women. I don't think that particular stories are gender driven but I do
:18:21. > :18:23.think that there are ways of treating stories which could be
:18:24. > :18:26.slightly gender different. This conversation we are having is
:18:27. > :18:31.obviously premise to an extent on the idea that still the movie
:18:32. > :18:35.business, and Hollywood, are a dominant force, but you've alluded
:18:36. > :18:39.to the fact that actually these days some of the most creative projects
:18:40. > :18:44.when it comes to film and video are coming out of television, not out of
:18:45. > :18:48.the movie business. You have just been working on a real big budget,
:18:49. > :18:56.rather lavish production, at which the BBC is involved with, and
:18:57. > :19:04.adaptation of the Night Manager from John McKay. This is a moment where
:19:05. > :19:08.the English intelligence officer is probing a key character, Jonathan
:19:09. > :19:14.Pine, who will be recruited to work deep undercover, trying to nail an
:19:15. > :19:21.arms dealer -- LeCarre. So, why did you do it? Why does Jonathan Pine,
:19:22. > :19:31.respected hotelier, risk is career by snitching on his guests? I don't
:19:32. > :19:37.know. Yes, you do. Something stirred, I suppose. What stirred?
:19:38. > :19:40.Listen, if a man is selling a private arsenal to an Egyptian crook
:19:41. > :19:45.and he is English and you are English, and those weapons can cause
:19:46. > :19:57.a lot of pain to a lot of people, then you just do it. S anyone would
:19:58. > :20:01.do it. Plenty wouldn't. Another compelling story. People will have
:20:02. > :20:05.to find it what happens. There is six hours of this. It cost an awful
:20:06. > :20:10.lot of money to make. Do you find, you know, having the extra time
:20:11. > :20:17.allows you to do things that the two hours of a movie doesn't allow you
:20:18. > :20:23.to do? It definitely does give you a space for richness of the
:20:24. > :20:28.characters. You can kind of do small detours, which is not necessarily
:20:29. > :20:32.just tied up to the plot in the strict sense that usually like a
:20:33. > :20:38.feature film is, but also it is just such rich material. Is your future
:20:39. > :20:42.in TV not the movies? Not necessarily. It is different. It is
:20:43. > :20:47.like the difference between a short story and a novel. A short story has
:20:48. > :20:53.its own beauty but a novel has a wealth of details which is just
:20:54. > :20:55.undeniable. I want to end by taking you back to the beginning. We
:20:56. > :21:02.started talking about Denmark and your background. It strikes me that
:21:03. > :21:06.you have made a point of saying that you love the way in which Denmark is
:21:07. > :21:10.becoming in your view over the years more multicultural and open to
:21:11. > :21:15.outside influence. And yet right now in Denmark, as in much of Europe,
:21:16. > :21:20.the debate is actually in a sense precisely the opposite, about how to
:21:21. > :21:24.keep people out. The worry is all about immigration and the effect it
:21:25. > :21:27.is having on Denmark. Do you feel that that might be something you are
:21:28. > :21:38.going to want to address, that debate, in movies in the future? I
:21:39. > :21:42.think, possibly. No, I will address it, but I think I might address it
:21:43. > :21:48.from a different place. I am a second-generation immigrant. Your
:21:49. > :21:55.parents actually fled the Nazis. Yes, they did and they came to
:21:56. > :21:58.Denmark. We were taken care of by the Danish people. I am eternally
:21:59. > :22:06.grateful for that. And I think I would rather address the issue by
:22:07. > :22:10.somehow reminding everyone that there is... That it does help and
:22:11. > :22:13.that there is a kind of kindness which is fruitful. The question is
:22:14. > :22:18.whether your country is ready to listen to that message right now.
:22:19. > :22:20.The second biggest party in the Danish parliament and we spoke to a
:22:21. > :22:25.senior representative on this programme the other day, the
:22:26. > :22:30.People's Party is it is there to say very clearly anti- in the
:22:31. > :22:32.People's Party is it is there to say very clearly anti- in --
:22:33. > :22:36.anti-immigrant and strongly nationalist. I am sure you heard
:22:37. > :22:43.about the... Yes, which we discussed. The thing is, that law
:22:44. > :22:50.isn't actually implemented, meaning that the police have said that
:22:51. > :22:53.they... For people who don't know, assets over 10,000 krona can be
:22:54. > :22:57.taken from incoming refugees, migrants, when they arrive in
:22:58. > :23:00.Denmark, namely assets are taken to help pay for the care these people
:23:01. > :23:06.will receive in Denmark. It has been hugely controversial. Yes, and it
:23:07. > :23:10.is... It is not something which... I think it is a very frightening and
:23:11. > :23:16.uncomfortable law. But I want to say that the police have... The police
:23:17. > :23:19.can't actually... They don't know anything about jewellery so they
:23:20. > :23:22.have said they don't know how to assess it. I don't want to get into
:23:23. > :23:27.the detail of the law but whether you as a filmmaker Phil inclined to
:23:28. > :23:32.get involved in here and now political debates -- filmmaker feel
:23:33. > :23:34.inclined. I don't want to get involved in actual political debate
:23:35. > :23:42.because whatever I will do will come out a year after and whatever I do,
:23:43. > :23:45.if it is tied up to is very concrete political situation will feel dated
:23:46. > :23:53.and old. And also what really interests me is I am not political,
:23:54. > :23:58.I am interested in human dilemmas. I will go to the core of it. I am
:23:59. > :24:00.interested in the moral issues. I am interested in asking you how you are
:24:01. > :24:08.going to react in a specific situation. But doing actual politics
:24:09. > :24:13.on film for me doesn't really work. Because it just seems dated want the
:24:14. > :24:16.comes out. We have to sadly ended there, but Susanne Bier thank you
:24:17. > :24:21.for being on HARDtalk. Thank you.