:00:00. > :00:16.The fallout from the conflict in Syria is threatening to
:00:17. > :00:18.destabilise one of the Middle East's most delicate nations, Lebanon.
:00:19. > :00:22.It hosts around 1.3 million Syrian refugees, more per capita than any
:00:23. > :00:29.This places huge pressure on its people and government,
:00:30. > :00:36.as well as adding more strain on its fragile sectarian mix.
:00:37. > :00:38.My guest today is Elias Bou Saab, Lebanon's education minister.
:00:39. > :00:41.What is the impact of the Syrian conflict on Lebanon
:00:42. > :01:21.Elias Bou Saab, welcome to HARDtalk. Were you surprised by the unexpected
:01:22. > :01:24.announcement by Russia that it was ending its military operations in
:01:25. > :01:29.Syria and withdrawing? Well, I wasn't surprised, especially as we
:01:30. > :01:36.know they won't going to continue to fight Daesh or ISIS alongside the
:01:37. > :01:43.rest of the world, and that means they will have a presents to keep on
:01:44. > :01:48.bombing ISIS. The pullout decision is probably a step towards telling
:01:49. > :01:55.the world that now we should move into a political solution in Syria.
:01:56. > :01:59.We should start supporting either side, the push for a political
:02:00. > :02:04.solution. President Putin said they had largely met their objectives. Is
:02:05. > :02:09.he right? What you that objective was, keep Assad in power? We don't
:02:10. > :02:15.see it that way in Lebanon. We have an enemy called ISIS, Daesh, and it
:02:16. > :02:20.is not a coincidence that this enemy is the enemy of Bashar al-Assad, of
:02:21. > :02:27.the Russians and also is the enemy of the West, so that we are all
:02:28. > :02:31.fighting the same enemy. If they push them away, pushed Daesh away
:02:32. > :02:35.from certain regions, I think that what President Putin is talking
:02:36. > :02:41.about. But they are still there. Islamic State, Daesh. Right. They
:02:42. > :02:46.were making progress at a certain point, towards the Lebanese border
:02:47. > :02:50.even. They took over most of the parts in Iraq, most of the northern
:02:51. > :02:55.parts. I think the Russian interference did really stop that
:02:56. > :03:00.and turn the equation around. But they are still there. Now that they
:03:01. > :03:04.have withdrawn arguably they could start re- consolidating their
:03:05. > :03:07.position, couldn't they? If the West keeps Daesh strong and if they
:03:08. > :03:11.decide to not participate alongside everybody else to keep on attacking
:03:12. > :03:16.those extremists, those terrorists that are not a threat to Syria but
:03:17. > :03:21.the region and the world. And Bashar al-Assad, keep him in power? In the
:03:22. > :03:25.opposition says he can't be part of any transition. Let me be honest
:03:26. > :03:31.with you. This is a country of democracy. We all want democracy.
:03:32. > :03:34.Let's ensure that there is a proper election in Syria and let the Syrian
:03:35. > :03:40.people decide who they want in power. But let's make sure there's a
:03:41. > :03:45.proper election in and leave it -- in Syria and leave it to the Syrian
:03:46. > :03:49.people to decide. We've tried to impart democracy on a country and we
:03:50. > :03:54.saw the results. We cannot do that by force. We need to set the stage
:03:55. > :04:00.for proper election, there are elections, and let the people decide
:04:01. > :04:08.what they want. Lebanon, it is five years since the Syrian war began and
:04:09. > :04:11.Lebanon has paid a heavy price. You have 1.3 million registered refugees
:04:12. > :04:16.with the United Nations, but arguably your government says that
:04:17. > :04:20.you have more than that, plus the 500,000 Palestinian refugees. Now
:04:21. > :04:25.with the Syrian refugees is the burden too great for Lebanon? It is.
:04:26. > :04:34.Lebanon is a country of 4 million people. When you say 1.5 refugees
:04:35. > :04:40.after the Syrian crisis and 500,000 from Palestine before, that's 2
:04:41. > :04:43.million refugees in Lebanon. Out of a country of 4 million this is quite
:04:44. > :04:47.a lot. This is not something Lebanon can handle on its own. Lebanon has
:04:48. > :04:53.its own crisis financially and economically. We all know the
:04:54. > :04:58.situation. Our education system, our health-care system, everything is
:04:59. > :05:02.suffering. Add to it everything we were going through on top. These
:05:03. > :05:06.refugees, the crisis... I once described it as a Harry Kane or
:05:07. > :05:13.earthquake that is ongoing for the past five years. -- hurricane.
:05:14. > :05:17.Usually the rest of the world helps after an earthquake or hurricane.
:05:18. > :05:22.They go to say, let us deal with the aftermath. In Lebanon we are leaving
:05:23. > :05:27.this earthquake on a daily basis. What do you say to the Europeans
:05:28. > :05:32.when EU was arguing over what resettling 160,000 Syrian refugees
:05:33. > :05:39.in Europe. I understand their fear but at the same time I will tell
:05:40. > :05:42.them there's one thing we can do, I heard on HARDtalk before many
:05:43. > :05:48.arguments from Turkey and others about how to deal with it. There's
:05:49. > :05:51.only one way. I disagree with what they are saying, share the refugees
:05:52. > :05:55.and distribute them around Europe, that's not the right thing. The only
:05:56. > :05:58.right thing to do is to make sure we have a political solution in Syria
:05:59. > :06:02.and stop the refugees leaving the country and make sure they can
:06:03. > :06:07.safely return home. Everybody agrees that but how quickly can be done and
:06:08. > :06:10.how are the refugees handled in the meantime? You say your country is
:06:11. > :06:16.hosting this great number and finding that it is adding to much
:06:17. > :06:21.pressure. Why isn't Lebanon party to the 1951 refugee Convention? Why
:06:22. > :06:23.have you not signed up to that? Because that would assist greatly in
:06:24. > :06:31.your receiving assistance that you need. You know, Lebanon is very
:06:32. > :06:38.different in the Middle East. Lebanon, with different religions
:06:39. > :06:43.and groups, a lot of complexity politically and other ways. For us
:06:44. > :06:48.to take on refugees and change the balance, that would change the
:06:49. > :06:51.entire country and this is something that many people are feeling. If you
:06:52. > :06:56.want to put it that way, the Christians in Lebanon is to be 50%
:06:57. > :07:03.of the country, even 60% at some points. Now they are down to 35%, if
:07:04. > :07:06.not less. If you take on the refugees and deal with the situation
:07:07. > :07:10.like any other treaty, the Palestinians before and now the
:07:11. > :07:15.Syrians, the country will change. That's the big fear. The Foreign
:07:16. > :07:19.Minister, who, like you is also a member of Lebanon's Christian
:07:20. > :07:23.community, as the large number of Syrian refugees is rapidly changing
:07:24. > :07:27.the demographics and it could present an existential crisis for
:07:28. > :07:34.Lebanon, because they are by and large the Syrians coming in Sunni
:07:35. > :07:38.Muslims and they are just one part of the sectarian make-up in Lebanon.
:07:39. > :07:44.But doesn't that sound a bit mean? You are saying, we don't want these
:07:45. > :07:47.Sunni Muslims coming in our midst but they will drown out the number
:07:48. > :07:56.of Christians? That's what we hear some European saying. Not only us as
:07:57. > :07:58.Christians are saying that. Even the Lebanese Muslim Sunnis and Shiites
:07:59. > :08:07.as agreed at Lebanon cannot be changed demographically. But that's
:08:08. > :08:10.what the Europeans are saying. Some Hungarians and Babaji and are
:08:11. > :08:16.saying, we don't want Muslims in our midst and it doesn't sound very
:08:17. > :08:20.generous, especially when Syria posted a lot of refugees from the
:08:21. > :08:23.region, including you yourself. You were there in the early 80s when
:08:24. > :08:29.there were problems in Lebanon. Correct. In 1982 during the Israeli
:08:30. > :08:33.invasion I have to go to Syria. And you were received there. And the
:08:34. > :08:40.Syrians received many refugees. Absolutely. But it was organised.
:08:41. > :08:45.They gave us passes to stay and then we returned back home. We did not
:08:46. > :08:49.stay in the country, none of us. Now the situation is different. It is
:08:50. > :08:55.unlike in Europe. In Lebanon that power is shared among those three
:08:56. > :08:59.religions. If we change that... That the Muslim Sunnis and Shiites and
:09:00. > :09:05.the Christians? Yes. Basically now also the constitution is we have
:09:06. > :09:11.equal power in the government, so we have 50% of the Parliament Muslims
:09:12. > :09:17.and 50% Christians and 50% Muslims. That will change. If that changes,
:09:18. > :09:23.the entire constitution should be changed. Now there is a big fear.
:09:24. > :09:28.The Christians left Iraq. They left Syria, because of Daesh and ISIS,
:09:29. > :09:34.all of the horrible things. The only Christian country that is left is
:09:35. > :09:39.Lebanon. If we do the same to Lebanon, that means we are changing
:09:40. > :09:45.the entire demography of the region. Could it erupt into... We saw the
:09:46. > :09:48.terrible civil war in Lebanon in the 90s. Could this reignite tensions in
:09:49. > :09:54.the country and upset this balance? For sure, it was Lebanon now can
:09:55. > :09:59.only survive by accepting one another. Accepting the situation as
:10:00. > :10:05.it is, saying that we have shared power and we need to continue living
:10:06. > :10:09.side by side, Muslims and Christians, and remain as an Arab
:10:10. > :10:13.country and work accordingly. But why can't you say we are all Arabs,
:10:14. > :10:18.it doesn't matter what religion you are. Surely you are reinforcing
:10:19. > :10:22.these kind of divisions by saying we are Arab Christians, we don't want
:10:23. > :10:28.Arab Muslims. Why do you just say we are all Muslims? It is easily said
:10:29. > :10:31.for anybody in the West. An easy thing for them to say, why don't we
:10:32. > :10:37.say that? I explain a little bit. The Muslims and Christians... The
:10:38. > :10:41.equal power that we share in Lebanon is unique in the region. Lebanon is
:10:42. > :10:45.the only country with a Christian president, although we don't have
:10:46. > :10:54.one for the past two years. You mentioned that. At the recent London
:10:55. > :10:58.conference that Lebanon attended, you asked for about $11 billion over
:10:59. > :11:05.the next five years, loans and straightforward aid in order for you
:11:06. > :11:10.to cope with the refugees. But people are looking at the way the
:11:11. > :11:12.Syrian refugees are being treated in Lebanon and you know there is some
:11:13. > :11:18.discontent about the way they are being received. I disagree. The
:11:19. > :11:23.Syrians are treated in Lebanon like the Lebanese. We open the doors for
:11:24. > :11:27.all Syrians, we open our schools for all Syrians, we open our homes for
:11:28. > :11:31.all Syrians, without even any help from the West or anybody else. The
:11:32. > :11:37.Lebanese people receive the Syrian people without organisation, without
:11:38. > :11:42.planning. This may take the country down sooner or later economically,
:11:43. > :11:46.financially and any other way. For that reason the government has said
:11:47. > :11:50.that we need to put a plan in place before we break down and if we break
:11:51. > :11:53.down it will not be limited to Lebanon. That would affect the
:11:54. > :11:58.region and eventually you will see the refugees losing hope, having no
:11:59. > :12:02.opportunity, no future and they will end up travelling and coming to
:12:03. > :12:08.Europe and other places. Let me explain what I meant by the
:12:09. > :12:11.criticisms. Human watch report in January cold, I just want to be
:12:12. > :12:15.treated like a person, talked about the fact that there are entry
:12:16. > :12:21.requirements for Syrians coming into Lebanon who wants to stay. They have
:12:22. > :12:27.to register and these fees for registration are extremely high for
:12:28. > :12:31.-- extremely high. This has driven a lot of the Syrians underground, got
:12:32. > :12:39.they don't have the means in order to register, or they need to sponsor
:12:40. > :12:45.and they can't do that. Human Rights Watch says this is really pushing
:12:46. > :12:48.refugees underground and this has led to their exploitation, either in
:12:49. > :12:54.the workforce, because they are working illegally, or by land
:12:55. > :12:58.routes. That is not accurate, let me tell you why. The government decided
:12:59. > :13:02.to put these measures after we reached over 1.5 million refugees,
:13:03. > :13:06.when we set Lebanon can no longer handle the situation. This was
:13:07. > :13:15.implemented by newcomers. We said, how can we stop... This was in
:13:16. > :13:18.January last year? Yes. Like any other country, any refugee, don't
:13:19. > :13:22.they need to register somewhere? The government should not have an
:13:23. > :13:26.account of who and where -- who is where? That's what we tried to do.
:13:27. > :13:31.Prior to that it was purely chaotic and we don't know where the refugees
:13:32. > :13:34.are, where they are living, what they're doing, what are the exact
:13:35. > :13:39.numbers. For that reason the government did what we are saying.
:13:40. > :13:42.Put that aside. After the London conference, that was hosted in
:13:43. > :13:47.February to support the refugees crisis in the region, Lebanon has
:13:48. > :13:51.come up with a paper and we said we will be looking at ways to
:13:52. > :13:57.facilitate the livelihood of those refugees. Because they can't work.
:13:58. > :14:01.They have to sign a pledge to say they can't work. Unless they get a
:14:02. > :14:06.proper work permit. Sponsored by Lebanese? Which you will find
:14:07. > :14:14.anywhere. If anyone wants to work in the UK, they don't... But these are
:14:15. > :14:18.people fleeing. A lawyer from an NGO defending civil rights and liberties
:14:19. > :14:25.as many Syrians want to but can't acquire any legal status. They don't
:14:26. > :14:28.have valid identification. She says Paul refugees in particular card
:14:29. > :14:32.signed in the rental contracts and she says many Syrians stay in camps,
:14:33. > :14:37.how can they provide the documents? And she says many stay indoors for
:14:38. > :14:42.days to avoid the police, many are paid -- pay hundreds of dollars for
:14:43. > :14:48.forged -- forged passports and she says at least a are arrested each
:14:49. > :14:51.month. Those paying British money do need passports in Lebanon because
:14:52. > :14:56.Syrians to meet passports. Let me tell you why they need passports,
:14:57. > :15:00.because we need them to go to Turkey and from there to go to Europe. That
:15:01. > :15:03.has nothing to do with Lebanon. This is not the Lebanon situation we are
:15:04. > :15:08.dealing with. Also, most of the workforce in Europe, by far they are
:15:09. > :15:12.Syrians and they are working illegally and we know that and we
:15:13. > :15:17.are letting it happen. Turning a blind eye? Because historically it
:15:18. > :15:21.has been like that, even prior to the crisis. We depend a lot on the
:15:22. > :15:27.workforce, on the manpower, from Syria. Why not let them work
:15:28. > :15:32.legally? You are education minister. You have 500,000 Syrian refugee
:15:33. > :15:38.children who are in Lebanon and you have put them in your school. -- by
:15:39. > :15:41.making teachers work double shifts and all the rest of it, it was you
:15:42. > :15:48.have to wonder 50,000 Lebanese children in schools.
:15:49. > :15:57.We have 250,000 Lebanese students in schools. Already we accommodated
:15:58. > :16:02.over 200,000 Syrian children this year. We opened all of the schools
:16:03. > :16:06.and a double shift system, warning an afternoon. We are doing
:16:07. > :16:10.everything we can to assist in this crisis -- morning. Why not let
:16:11. > :16:16.Syrians qualified as teachers work as teachers? You have half a million
:16:17. > :16:23.more children now. The unemployment rate in direct this year is 11% --
:16:24. > :16:31.Europe. It went down from last year. In Lebanon, after the Syrian
:16:32. > :16:39.crisis, we are over 20% unemployment rate for the Lebanese. We first took
:16:40. > :16:43.on this government, let me explain, it was very difficult for us to come
:16:44. > :16:47.and say we want to help and we want to take on these refugees and put
:16:48. > :16:53.them in the classrooms because we were getting opposition and a lot of
:16:54. > :16:56.political attacks. As Minister of education in Lebanon, I said if I
:16:57. > :17:00.have to be attacked for putting these drilling in schools, that is
:17:01. > :17:04.fine. I'm prepared to be attacked on that because every child belongs in
:17:05. > :17:09.the classroom. As long as they are in Lebanon, their place is the
:17:10. > :17:12.classroom to stop but we have to take into consideration that the
:17:13. > :17:19.hold unity is suffering. I can't tell the teachers in Lebanon to stay
:17:20. > :17:22.unemployed. But if you have more children, it makes sense to relax
:17:23. > :17:28.the restrictions on Syrians working and maybe have Syrian teachers to
:17:29. > :17:33.help relieve some of the pressure. But by law, we cannot have Syrian
:17:34. > :17:40.teachers instead of Lebanese teachers. The Syrian teachers do not
:17:41. > :17:44.teach the Lebanese curriculum. One concerned you have voiced is that
:17:45. > :17:50.the refugee crisis has allowed militants in any reckon there are up
:17:51. > :18:01.to 3% of the refugee flow including radicals. David Cameron visited
:18:02. > :18:05.Lebanon, I did not teach in that context. I was asked a question, if
:18:06. > :18:11.I believed there were extremists amongst the refugees, and I said in
:18:12. > :18:20.Lebanon on, not all refugees are extremist. Maybe 2% of them could be
:18:21. > :18:26.because in the Lebanese camps, we had some of them who went out of the
:18:27. > :18:31.camps, kidnapped Lebanese soldiers, they belonged to Daesh and Isis and
:18:32. > :18:34.whatever, and they came out of the camps where the refugees were it
:18:35. > :18:39.attacked the Lebanese army on more than one occasion. So yes they could
:18:40. > :18:44.be. In November last year in a core part of Beirut, you had an attack
:18:45. > :18:49.that killed more than 40 and injured 200, which was claimed by Daesh or
:18:50. > :18:54.the so-called Islamic State. But there is another thought, which is
:18:55. > :18:59.that there are some Sunni Muslims in Lebanon on who are Lebanese who are
:19:00. > :19:03.turning to extremism because they see the Hezbollah fighting force,
:19:04. > :19:09.which is Shia, supporting Bashar al-Assad in Syria, so they think we
:19:10. > :19:14.are going to join the extremists, be Sunni extremists, and a professor
:19:15. > :19:23.said well over a year ago that Sunnis are reacting to Shias and are
:19:24. > :19:29.defecting to Isil. Definitely there is a conflict between Muslim Sunnis
:19:30. > :19:35.and she is in the region. We know that and there is no doubt. --
:19:36. > :19:39.Shias. Why is Hezbollah in Syria? The extremes there are reaching the
:19:40. > :19:47.Lebanese borders. They are attacking and bombing areas where Shi'ites are
:19:48. > :19:54.living. They send car bombs and whatever over the last few years,
:19:55. > :19:57.and that is basically why you find this involvement in Syria, because
:19:58. > :20:02.it is from both sides. A lot of people don't like it, into a
:20:03. > :20:08.Christian member of the free patriot movement, and you are in alliance
:20:09. > :20:14.with Hezbollah as part of a ten party block in Parliament. Are you
:20:15. > :20:19.content with that alliance, that Hezbollah is fighting alongside the
:20:20. > :20:24.Shah al-Assad and he is responsible for killing ten times as many people
:20:25. > :20:32.as Daesh are, according to many accounts? -- Bashar al-Assad. We are
:20:33. > :20:39.in alliance with ten parties, not just Hezbollah. The comfortable with
:20:40. > :20:44.that? It is a Lebanese political party, and they liberated the
:20:45. > :20:50.Lebanese. They happen to be fighting alongside Bashar al-Assad. That is
:20:51. > :20:56.my super question. When we made our alliance with most of the Lebanese
:20:57. > :21:04.parties, and made the original with Hezbollah, it was silly related to
:21:05. > :21:07.Lebanon. -- simply. We do not talk about interfering with anyone
:21:08. > :21:13.outside the Lebanese border. You can't turn a blind eye to the fact
:21:14. > :21:18.they are supporting Bashar al-Assad in Syria, and since he has killed so
:21:19. > :21:22.many people, his forces have killed so many people, does that make you
:21:23. > :21:25.feel comfortable? To be honest, if I want to talk about the Syrian
:21:26. > :21:30.conflict more and that his forces killed to many people, we also have
:21:31. > :21:35.to talk about what Daesh and Isil have killed in the Syrian people.
:21:36. > :21:40.This war is a dirty game. Everyone is killing everyone. If everybody
:21:41. > :21:45.stops interfering in Syria, and I'm talking about everyone, then yes,
:21:46. > :21:51.Lebanon will say no need for anyone... The former Prime Minister,
:21:52. > :21:55.Sunni, has called on forces to be pulled from Syria to prevent a
:21:56. > :22:00.so-called Holocaust. But are you not worried that countries like Saudi
:22:01. > :22:07.Arabia, who are obviously opposed to Bashar al-Assad and the sheer force,
:22:08. > :22:13.Hezbollah, act like Iran, which receives assistance every year, they
:22:14. > :22:21.say we're going to draw not give you the $3 billion assistance to the
:22:22. > :22:25.Lebanese army. -- Shia force, Hezbollah, backed like Iran. That
:22:26. > :22:31.will hit you where it hurts, it in the pocket. It is not because of
:22:32. > :22:35.that only. We're not concerned exit will hit is in the pocket. We are
:22:36. > :22:38.concerned because we are an Arab country and don't like to see our
:22:39. > :22:44.relationship with the Arab states and countries going right. We would
:22:45. > :22:51.like to have the best relationship with Saudi Arabia and the rest of
:22:52. > :22:58.the Gulf states -- countries going route. We have different players,
:22:59. > :23:02.different sectors. We can not make one decision just on our own. If we
:23:03. > :23:08.don't do it collectively, the entire country is accurate. We need to
:23:09. > :23:11.understand and make friends understand that is a situation and
:23:12. > :23:15.at the same time make all of the decisions that are in favour of
:23:16. > :23:18.stemming with the Arab states. We need to stand with Saudi Arabia
:23:19. > :23:24.against anyone interfering in their own affairs from within or from
:23:25. > :23:28.outside. Finally, protests in the street in Lebanon against the
:23:29. > :23:36.rubbish disposal, sectarianism, what hope for peace, prosperity and unity
:23:37. > :23:40.in Lebanon on briefly? Well, hope for peace, we have Syria's political
:23:41. > :23:44.support from the West and international committee. If they are
:23:45. > :23:49.serious about assisting Lebanon, they should help us financially and
:23:50. > :23:54.politically to have a stable country, to build our government,
:23:55. > :23:58.and to give future hope for all of the young people in Lebanon and
:23:59. > :24:05.assist us with the crisis we are going through right now because of
:24:06. > :24:08.the Syrian refugees. Ban, Lebanon's education minister, thank you for
:24:09. > :24:11.coming on HARDtalk -- Elias Bou Saab.