:00:00. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk. Journalism in Turkey is a precarious business.
:00:21. > :00:23.Earlier this month, the country's biggest selling newspaper was
:00:24. > :00:26.forcibly taken over by the government, a host of journalists
:00:27. > :00:33.have been locked up for insulting the nation and its institutions, or
:00:34. > :00:37.aiding terrorists. All this in a nation beset with diplomatic
:00:38. > :00:42.security and humanitarian challenges. My guest today is Sevgi
:00:43. > :00:48.Akarcesme, editor of the English language Today's Zaman newspaper.
:00:49. > :00:53.Until, that is, the state looted her out. So, how close is Turkey to
:00:54. > :01:28.authoritarian rule? -- booted. Sevgi Akarcesme, in Brussels,
:01:29. > :01:32.welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Explained to me first of all why you
:01:33. > :01:38.are talking to me from Brussels, when your life, your career, your
:01:39. > :01:43.job, are all in Turkey? Even though officially I am still be
:01:44. > :01:47.editor-in-chief of Today's Zaman, I have been dismissed by the new
:01:48. > :01:51.administration, which was hand-picked by the government and
:01:52. > :01:55.installed the newspaper. I was concerned about my personal freedoms
:01:56. > :01:58.and safety in Turkey and thought it would be a wise decision to leave
:01:59. > :02:05.the country and make our voice heard around the world from Brussels. Let
:02:06. > :02:10.me stop you there. When I just said you were essentially booted out of
:02:11. > :02:17.your job by the state, was I exaggerating? You could still be in
:02:18. > :02:21.your job, could you? Not really, because as soon as the new
:02:22. > :02:26.administration took over by means of a brutal police raid on March four,
:02:27. > :02:30.they immediately dismissed the editor-in-chief of Zaman, along with
:02:31. > :02:35.the former editor-in-chief of Today's Zaman, but for some reason I
:02:36. > :02:41.haven't received any notification of dismissal. It must be a matter of
:02:42. > :02:45.time. I personally would not prefer to work with such an administration,
:02:46. > :02:54.because as soon as they started, took over, they started to implement
:02:55. > :03:01.censorship. They immediately removed critical columnists, and they began
:03:02. > :03:06.to assess the news stories in the following days. I had asked them to
:03:07. > :03:10.remove my name from the byline. Since the takeover, my name does not
:03:11. > :03:13.appear in the byline any more. I don't appear this to sound too
:03:14. > :03:19.judgemental, but wasn't it perhaps a bit cowardly of you to leave your
:03:20. > :03:23.job and walk away from a very difficult situation, when you could
:03:24. > :03:28.have stayed and fought for your principles and for the independence
:03:29. > :03:31.of your newspaper? That is a good question, and they don't judge you
:03:32. > :03:35.for such a question, you are supposed to ask me difficult
:03:36. > :03:40.questions. Given the pattern in Turkey in terms of what is happening
:03:41. > :03:44.to journalists in the last couple of years, I don't see any reason why I
:03:45. > :03:49.should wait to be detained, imprisoned, or banned from
:03:50. > :03:56.travelling abroad when there is no newspaper left. Technically, even
:03:57. > :03:58.though the newsroom remains the same, the newspaper has been
:03:59. > :04:05.controlled by other people, prepared by other people, and they receive
:04:06. > :04:12.approval from higher authorities for any story they run. Technically,
:04:13. > :04:16.there is no newspaper for me to run any more. I am imagining you are in
:04:17. > :04:20.touch with colleagues who are still at the paper, not everyone has
:04:21. > :04:26.walked out. I have seen Tweets from journalists suggesting they have
:04:27. > :04:31.lost access to internal servers, e-mail accounts have been closed.
:04:32. > :04:38.That is true, I was there during all of that happening, I didn't leave
:04:39. > :04:41.until the end of the weekend, and I had to deal with the new
:04:42. > :04:48.administration. But I realise that these are not the type of people I
:04:49. > :04:54.can have a civilised communication with. Were their armed security
:04:55. > :04:57.personnel inside the newsroom? Not inside the newsroom, but in the
:04:58. > :05:01.corridor is right outside the newsroom, inside the building, at
:05:02. > :05:08.the gates. They did not even allow us to enter with our own cars,
:05:09. > :05:16.because the building was cordoned by the riot police. There were many
:05:17. > :05:21.policeman, and my colleagues had to work under heavy police presence.
:05:22. > :05:28.Going back to your previous question, unfortunately higher
:05:29. > :05:36.executives are under no risk, and I see no reason why I should wait to
:05:37. > :05:44.be imprisoned just like others. I can fight when I am free, and I am
:05:45. > :05:48.of sound mind, so it doesn't mean that I quit my struggle. This is the
:05:49. > :05:54.best form of struggling, trying to make our voice heard in the world. I
:05:55. > :06:00.wonder whether there is a certain amount of rhetoric and hype going
:06:01. > :06:06.on. You have said that the decision squarely sits at the top of the
:06:07. > :06:12.Turkish government. You have called Recep Tayyip Erdogan a despotic
:06:13. > :06:18.leader. Others in your newsroom, another Zaman journalist, said this
:06:19. > :06:22.wreck of a sense -- this represents the end of democracy. Auntie going a
:06:23. > :06:28.bit far? The security forces moved in the Qusair was a court order
:06:29. > :06:32.suggesting that there was legal permission for the state to take
:06:33. > :06:38.over the running of the Zaman newspaper group -- aren't you going
:06:39. > :06:44.a bit far? I personally read the court order, and the court order,
:06:45. > :06:52.which was clearly politically motivated, because those specific
:06:53. > :06:55.courts are... There are other examples, the arrest of other
:06:56. > :07:00.journalists are directly controlled by the government, by the new
:07:01. > :07:04.regime. This court accuses our newspaper of terrorist propaganda
:07:05. > :07:18.and links to terrorist organisations that do not exist. I do not consider
:07:19. > :07:25.the court order legitimate. I do not consider the decision to take over
:07:26. > :07:28.our newspaper legitimate. I do not consider these trustees as the
:07:29. > :07:34.rightful owners of the newspaper. They simply took our newspaper away
:07:35. > :07:40.from us, and this is the culmination of violation of freedoms in Turkey.
:07:41. > :07:43.You can choose to label the court is illegitimate in this case, I
:07:44. > :07:47.understand from your perspective why you are doing that. But the bottom
:07:48. > :07:52.line is, you say there is no evidence whatsoever. They say, and I
:07:53. > :07:56.am just reading now from the court decision, that there is " a strong
:07:57. > :08:03.suspicion that publications of Zaman are linked to terrorism, and that
:08:04. > :08:16.this operation is part of a number of ongoing investigations on the F
:08:17. > :08:19.ET oh terrorist organisation". They say that is establishing a parallel
:08:20. > :08:32.structure apart from the state apparatus for the use of violence.
:08:33. > :08:35.First of all, there is no such proof of that terrorist organisation
:08:36. > :08:42.existing. They could not come up with any single story about
:08:43. > :08:46.terrorist propaganda or that praises any terrorist activity. There are no
:08:47. > :08:52.links to terrorism in our newspaper, and there is no single evidence. If
:08:53. > :08:55.they argue that they are taking over the newspaper because of links to
:08:56. > :09:02.terrorism, they have to come up with at least one evidence, right? I
:09:03. > :09:09.guess what this gets too is whether there is any grounds for calling
:09:10. > :09:13.this movement terrorist organisation. Would you deny that
:09:14. > :09:20.your newspaper is in the pocket of the movement, which the people who
:09:21. > :09:26.don't know the situation is a deep-rooted religious, social,
:09:27. > :09:32.activist movement, run from exiled, and your newspaper has been in the
:09:33. > :09:36.pocket of that organisation for sometime? I would not say it is in
:09:37. > :09:41.the pocket, but I would not deny that many people within the
:09:42. > :09:49.newspaper, not everyone, including some of my editors at Today's Zaman,
:09:50. > :09:57.but the majority of the people would consider themselves sympathetic to
:09:58. > :10:07.Fethullah Gulen and his teachings. If the movement has any terrorist
:10:08. > :10:12.links, there would be evidence in one of the 170 countries in which it
:10:13. > :10:15.was active, and they would not allow the existence of such an
:10:16. > :10:19.organisation in their countries, would they? The outside world is
:10:20. > :10:22.looking at this, and many people are deeply concerned about what appears
:10:23. > :10:29.to be a repressive state moving into a media organisation. There is no
:10:30. > :10:33.way that if we dig into this story we could portray your media
:10:34. > :10:37.organisation is truly independent. You weren't independent, I use the
:10:38. > :10:43.phrase in the pocket of, but you were closely associated with
:10:44. > :10:53.Fethullah Gulen's movement, which has become a big enemy of the take a
:10:54. > :10:57.party government at the moment. That is a complex question, you would
:10:58. > :11:03.like to understand the context, but I think what makes the newspaper
:11:04. > :11:07.independent, what is critical when it comes to independence of a
:11:08. > :11:11.newspaper, is whether it is independent from government and
:11:12. > :11:17.state. Any civic society organisations or any movement could
:11:18. > :11:21.want to promote its interest or try to have a say in the media sector or
:11:22. > :11:28.anywhere in the world, it always happens. But there is no evidence
:11:29. > :11:33.that I can place in front of you, but I could assure you that
:11:34. > :11:37.throughout my history at Today's Zaman and Zaman, I have not ever
:11:38. > :11:50.received a single instruction from the movement off from Fethullah
:11:51. > :11:56.Gulen. I was free to write whatever I felt like writing, but of course I
:11:57. > :12:03.think along the same lines for the most part with the movement, because
:12:04. > :12:09.this is a peaceful am completely peaceful, movement, which promotes
:12:10. > :12:15.education, peaceful coexistence, and you know, universal rights. It
:12:16. > :12:21.promotes a more civilised world. You keep telling me the movement is
:12:22. > :12:26.entirely peaceful. You have said yes, many of you and your associates
:12:27. > :12:29.in the newspaper were attached to it, but you see nothing wrong with
:12:30. > :12:40.that. The government says that all over Turkey there is evidence that
:12:41. > :12:46.the Gulen Movement is aiding and abetting terrorism and undermining
:12:47. > :12:54.the state. What is the evidence? This is a country that has been
:12:55. > :12:59.truly suffering from terrorist organisations. The PKK, ISIS, other
:13:00. > :13:08.attacks. Can you name me or show me any incident, a single small
:13:09. > :13:13.incident, where this has been involved? The government cannot show
:13:14. > :13:17.me even a single incident. Here is what I'm struck by as you protest
:13:18. > :13:22.your innocence and say this is a deep injustice. I'm struck by the
:13:23. > :13:26.phrase to use in the US and elsewhere, what goes around comes
:13:27. > :13:36.around. That is really what has happened to you. In this period of
:13:37. > :13:42.2009 -12, the Zaman newspaper group was incredibly loyal to Recep Tayyip
:13:43. > :13:47.Erdogan anti- AKP political -- and the AKP. You supported them when
:13:48. > :13:54.they moved against independent journalists who were digging around
:13:55. > :13:57.in unfavourable stories, both to the AKP and the Gulen Movement. You
:13:58. > :14:05.supported the locking up of journalists then. Maybe you are
:14:06. > :14:13.reaping what you sow. It is true that the idea of supporting
:14:14. > :14:18.political freedom regardless of their situation. I was critical of
:14:19. > :14:25.Zaman at the time. Are you critical of yourself? Let me clarify, I was
:14:26. > :14:31.not part of the newspaper at the time. I know, but you were working
:14:32. > :14:44.with an AKP affiliated President. Not an affiliated President,
:14:45. > :14:50.Abdullah Gul was pretty impartial is top white he was part of the party.
:14:51. > :14:53.You were part of the system at the time and you are happy to see
:14:54. > :14:56.independent journalism oppressed if it suited the party. But now you
:14:57. > :15:03.have decided, since you are a victim, that it is not good at. You
:15:04. > :15:07.cannot find any evidence that I was happy with the imprisonment of
:15:08. > :15:12.journalists, but I admit that personally at the newspaper we
:15:13. > :15:18.should have expressed our voice clearly. We should have been more
:15:19. > :15:24.supportive of freedoms in Turkey regardless of who the victim is. But
:15:25. > :15:30.then again you have to look at the context in which not only the Zaman
:15:31. > :15:33.group, but everyone, including the EU, Liberals in Turkey, Kurds,
:15:34. > :15:40.people from different walks of life, supported the AKP up until
:15:41. > :15:42.recently. Do much until the referendum after which Recep Tayyip
:15:43. > :15:52.Erdogan became more corrupt. There is one particular case,
:15:53. > :16:00.Ahmed, locked up between 2011 and 2012 fought bidding in on
:16:01. > :16:03.information that did not help out Gulen movement. Zaman did not
:16:04. > :16:09.champion his cause. He was released now. When he saw your offices were
:16:10. > :16:16.raided recently, he said, I condemn the raid on Zaman but I also
:16:17. > :16:22.remember that Zaman in the recent past serve Fascism. There is a real
:16:23. > :16:27.mixed message going on here. I think you are missing this and looking at
:16:28. > :16:36.the story selectively. It was a mistake not to defend the rights of
:16:37. > :16:41.him and other MPs and journalists -- in prison. It wasn't only me. Before
:16:42. > :16:45.the crackdown, before the government went after Zaman, the former editor
:16:46. > :16:51.in chief of Zaman said it was a mistake along with other senior
:16:52. > :16:55.columnists and executives who did a lot of soul-searching and said it
:16:56. > :17:04.was a mistake. By the way let me clarify one point, you would be
:17:05. > :17:09.wrong to assume that any violation of media freedom is or the rule of
:17:10. > :17:15.law happened without the instructions or permission of Recep
:17:16. > :17:25.Tayyip Erdogan because he himself said that books are more dangerous
:17:26. > :17:29.than bombs, and Ahmed, before his imprisonment, was not a well-known
:17:30. > :17:36.journalist. There were many other books that are defaming, thousands
:17:37. > :17:42.of books, defending their Gulen movement. One of the authors of this
:17:43. > :17:45.book so that if they are locked because they are critical of Gulen
:17:46. > :17:48.movement, it should have been me who has been critical of the movement
:17:49. > :17:55.for the last 14 years. We could not simply argue that they are
:17:56. > :17:58.imprisoned because of a art and Thai Gulen movement. Let's look at the
:17:59. > :18:04.bigger picture -- anti- Gulen movement. The bottom line for those
:18:05. > :18:08.of us who look at your country from outside is that it looks almost
:18:09. > :18:15.impossible today for any genuine independent reporting to take place
:18:16. > :18:21.inside Turkey. This is not only about Zaman and the government. This
:18:22. > :18:26.went well beyond this. It is not only... Even though Zaman is the
:18:27. > :18:30.largest portion they were trying to swallow, they have been going after
:18:31. > :18:35.other critical media outlets as well. We would be mistaken if we
:18:36. > :18:43.assume this is a power struggle going on between a movement and the
:18:44. > :18:47.regime in Turkey. How far do you think this authoritarian strain of
:18:48. > :18:52.government can go? For example, days ago, after a decision to release two
:18:53. > :18:56.journalists from a detention centre, because they still remain
:18:57. > :19:01.charge of aiding and abetting terrorism but were released for a
:19:02. > :19:05.time, Mr Erdogan said if the court makes decisions like that we will
:19:06. > :19:09.have to review whether the constitutional court should
:19:10. > :19:11.continue. How far will he go with his determination to impose his
:19:12. > :19:23.authority on every level of the state? That criticism again, I would
:19:24. > :19:29.never have imagined the government going this far when they were
:19:30. > :19:38.democratising the country. It is quite like a U-turn. That is one
:19:39. > :19:44.reason I would never have imagined him becoming this authoritarian.
:19:45. > :19:47.After this point, especially after trying to distract attention from
:19:48. > :19:51.the corruption investigations in order not to be held accountable, I
:19:52. > :19:58.think he could go as far as he can. At the moment, there is not a single
:19:59. > :20:02.power in the country, not any independent media institution, not a
:20:03. > :20:07.strong civil society, not a strong opposition to start Erdogan. The
:20:08. > :20:11.only situation trying to stop his violation of the rule of law was the
:20:12. > :20:15.constitutional court and he said he does not recognise and respect the
:20:16. > :20:20.constitutional court -- stopped Erdogan. It is the suspension of the
:20:21. > :20:26.Constitution, effectively, and that is why it would not be wrong to
:20:27. > :20:31.argue, to assume, that we are going through a difficult time because of
:20:32. > :20:36.the Constitution suspension. You call it a coup d'etat and yet you
:20:37. > :20:40.sit in Brussels trying to publicise your cause, because of freedom of
:20:41. > :20:45.expression, and yet at the same time you are saying that two people in
:20:46. > :20:50.Brussels, the EU is talking about speeding up the accession talks with
:20:51. > :20:54.Turkey, visa free travel and other carrots to give the Turkish
:20:55. > :20:57.government because they need their cooperation in the migration
:20:58. > :21:02.crisis. Is Europe betraying its principles in how it is handling
:21:03. > :21:05.Turkey today? Unfortunately, I have to say yes, with the exception of
:21:06. > :21:10.individual politicians committed to their values. From a general
:21:11. > :21:17.outlook, I think the EU does not live up to its values. For example,
:21:18. > :21:25.when Angela Merkel visited Istanbul, she didn't visit the palace of
:21:26. > :21:31.Erdogan, in protest of that place probably, because it is a
:21:32. > :21:37.controversial palace, but instead Erdogan posted her in one of the
:21:38. > :21:44.Ottoman palaces in a very symbolic move and used Angela Merkel's visit
:21:45. > :21:47.to save his face among domestic supporters. Unfortunately, European
:21:48. > :21:53.leaders are giving Erdogan opportunities in gold in place. You
:21:54. > :21:56.sound very disappointed with Europe. A final question about your own
:21:57. > :22:00.personal fate. You've described him as a dictator. You have said that
:22:01. > :22:05.repression knows no bounds. You have talked about a coup d'etat in your
:22:06. > :22:10.own country. The way you talk to me today suggest to me you don't think
:22:11. > :22:13.you can possibly go home. That it would presumably be too dangerous to
:22:14. > :22:20.go back to Turkey. Is that how you feel? First of all, let me clarify.
:22:21. > :22:26.I haven't called him a dictator. He is a despot. That DWORD is dangerous
:22:27. > :22:31.in Turkey. I am still subject to some censorship in that respect but
:22:32. > :22:38.I have already been imprisoned because of my tweets and the comment
:22:39. > :22:45.left under my tweet -- D word. But the case was... I was sued by the
:22:46. > :22:51.Prime Minister are met other -- by the Prime Minister. It was someone
:22:52. > :22:57.else's comment under my tweet. I know. You have had clashes already
:22:58. > :23:02.with the law. You have already been convicted of crimes. Will you ever
:23:03. > :23:09.go home, or as long as the AK government is in place, are you in
:23:10. > :23:12.exile? All I can say is that the Erdogan regime has changed my life
:23:13. > :23:16.in three hours. I love my country. It is the place where I was born and
:23:17. > :23:23.raised. I am completely loyal to my home country but at the moment it is
:23:24. > :23:28.not specific to me. Almost any critical journalist is under
:23:29. > :23:32.jeopardy in Turkey. Our freedoms are under jeopardy. I don't see any
:23:33. > :23:37.reason why I should go back under these circumstances. But then again
:23:38. > :23:43.I truly have no other plans. I really don't know what I am going to
:23:44. > :23:46.do next. I will continue doing journalism, maybe we might try to
:23:47. > :23:52.revive Zaman as a news website with some other colleagues, but
:23:53. > :23:59.everything is so vague at the moment because it is a trauma. At the
:24:00. > :24:04.moment, there are people in the newsroom who are trying not to
:24:05. > :24:07.resign, nor to lose their legal rights, but they are not happy to
:24:08. > :24:12.work under a heavy police presence and under censorship. Well, we have
:24:13. > :24:17.to end it there, but Sevgi Akarcesme, a thank you very much for
:24:18. > :24:37.being on HARDtalk. Thank you for having me -- I thank you.
:24:38. > :24:41.We've seen variations in weather from day to day with