:00:00. > :00:18.Welcome to HARDtalk, iron Stephen Sackur. The politics of anger and
:00:19. > :00:23.insecurity have created a new dynamic in Europe. Nationalist
:00:24. > :00:29.anti-immigrant parties have made inroads in many countries, such as
:00:30. > :00:32.Hungary, Denmark and Finland. The right-wing populist party is a
:00:33. > :00:43.significant player in the centre-right Coalition government.
:00:44. > :00:45.My guest today is Timo Soini, Leader of the Opposition and the Foreign
:00:46. > :00:53.Minister. What happens to be populace when they face the
:00:54. > :01:01.compromises that come with sharing power? -- what happens to the
:01:02. > :01:21.populists? Timo Soini, welcome. We last spoke
:01:22. > :01:27.to each other about three years ago. You would then be opponent of the
:01:28. > :01:30.Finnish government. You are channelling a lot of anger and
:01:31. > :01:35.resentment in your country. It is very difficult to do that when you
:01:36. > :01:41.are in the government, isn't it? Of course it is. It's a different role.
:01:42. > :01:46.But the political line should be the same. It is now in development, it
:01:47. > :01:50.is a better chance to make it am. You've had to sacrifice a lot of
:01:51. > :01:57.your principles for pragmatism? No, but we are living in the realistic
:01:58. > :02:04.world. When you are on your own, of course you can more or less decide
:02:05. > :02:09.what to say and when to say it and how to say it. When you are in the
:02:10. > :02:13.government, in a coalition, you must be able to make compromises. But
:02:14. > :02:19.that doesn't mean that you are giving up your principal. We will
:02:20. > :02:26.talk about that. One fought from you that comes from elsewhere in
:02:27. > :02:29.Scandinavia. Not so long ago, the far right party in Denmark who did
:02:30. > :02:35.extraordinarily well in the last election, they came second, they
:02:36. > :02:39.took a decision to stay out of a Coalition government because they
:02:40. > :02:45.felt that that would compromise them at too much. You clearly felt
:02:46. > :02:51.something different, is that because you are desperate for some power?
:02:52. > :03:01.No, I have a background in the Finnish rural party. There is a long
:03:02. > :03:05.tradition of helping small businessmen, peasants, workers. Our
:03:06. > :03:12.party hasn't been founded lately, it has roots rolling back over 50
:03:13. > :03:16.years. That is why we have been serious players in local politics
:03:17. > :03:20.for a long time. The point is, you have not had national Power before.
:03:21. > :03:25.Now you do, and it seems you are leaving behind a lot of your core
:03:26. > :03:28.support. When you talk about the rise, they call it betrayal. They
:03:29. > :03:37.feel you have portrayed them. That is not true. If I went out, they
:03:38. > :03:45.would say, why won't you do this? You're not going to deliver
:03:46. > :03:49.anything. Talking about the compromise and principles. Starting
:03:50. > :03:53.with migration, perhaps the number one issue facing European countries
:03:54. > :03:58.today. A huge political issue in your country and across Europe. For
:03:59. > :04:02.many years, you were very straightforward in your
:04:03. > :04:08.anti-immigration stance. You now represent a government which, as
:04:09. > :04:14.part of the Schengen EU collective, committed to taking quotas of
:04:15. > :04:22.immigrants. You've accepted that? First, we must define certain
:04:23. > :04:28.things. Of course, Finns Party, like every human organisation and human
:04:29. > :04:35.being, feels for the people who are in need, who are in danger. Women,
:04:36. > :04:39.children, people who are persecuted and under threat. Of course that is
:04:40. > :04:46.the case. That is not the problem. What we have criticised is the
:04:47. > :04:54.immigration on other grounds, economic immigration and so forth.
:04:55. > :04:59.If you work, if you deliver, that is the kind of principle which is very
:05:00. > :05:04.important. With respect, there are many voices inside your own party,
:05:05. > :05:13.the Finns Party, who don't see it the way you do. They see a quite
:05:14. > :05:18.clear, using a quote from one of your MEPs, they see a clear Muslim
:05:19. > :05:23.threat in the nature of immigration today in the nature of immigration
:05:24. > :05:27.today this is what I get on a daily basis. From inside your own party?
:05:28. > :05:33.Yes. But we must look at the full picture. It is not solely about
:05:34. > :05:40.immigration, it is about many things. There is of course a
:05:41. > :05:44.fraction in the party. I think it is better to have those kind of people
:05:45. > :05:51.in a democratic process than outside. The MEP I am talking
:05:52. > :05:56.about, you know him very well. He has been a big player in your party
:05:57. > :06:02.for a long time. He was convicted of ethnic agitation for things he wrote
:06:03. > :06:07.in a blog post about the Prophet Muhammad. You said anybody convicted
:06:08. > :06:12.of racist crimes would not have a future as a representative of your
:06:13. > :06:16.party. I am intrigued to know why he is still representing your party?
:06:17. > :06:24.That is the same old story. We have sorted out that he is still in the
:06:25. > :06:29.party, and we think that everybody must have a second chance. So when
:06:30. > :06:33.you said those convicted of the sorts of crimes have no future in
:06:34. > :06:38.the party, you were just saying that for public consumption? Of course I
:06:39. > :06:43.did not say it for public consumption, everybody must have a
:06:44. > :06:49.second chance. So, you've made a complete U-turn? No. But I think
:06:50. > :06:55.that if somebody is making a mistake, he should have a second
:06:56. > :07:01.chance. You have also got party MPs who have said things like this last
:07:02. > :07:06.year in the midst of high numbers of migrants coming to Europe. You had
:07:07. > :07:13.around 30,000 coming to Finland. One of your MP said, I am dreaming of a
:07:14. > :07:16.strong, brave Finland who will defeat this nightmare called
:07:17. > :07:20.multiculturalism. We must fight to the end for our homeland and one
:07:21. > :07:25.true Finnish nation. Is that the sentiments you feel yourself as
:07:26. > :07:30.Foreign Minister of Finland? I would say the other way. I would say that
:07:31. > :07:40.when you come to Finland, you adopt the local culture and habits. But
:07:41. > :07:45.nobody is denied his beliefs or hers, through faith. That is the
:07:46. > :07:49.case. We began by talking about the balance between principle and
:07:50. > :07:54.compromise. Not so long ago, towards the end of last year, another one of
:07:55. > :07:58.your senior officials, the vice-chairman of your party, said we
:07:59. > :08:03.must leave this Coalition government because we have betrayed all the
:08:04. > :08:07.promises we made to the people of Finland about limiting immigration.
:08:08. > :08:20.In 2014, just over 3000 people claimed asylum. In 2015, it was over
:08:21. > :08:27.30,000. You have portrayed the Finns Party commitment to keep immigration
:08:28. > :08:32.down. He got it wrong. The big majority of the party thinks that we
:08:33. > :08:37.deliver. We are in a very bad situation in Finland. It would be a
:08:38. > :08:41.betrayal to leave if you have promised and committed for four
:08:42. > :08:47.years. We are talking about promises, you broke a promise to do
:08:48. > :08:49.everything in your power to keep immigration at the 2014 level. No, I
:08:50. > :08:58.have not broken any promises. Ninon. Use it as one of the most
:08:59. > :09:03.senior officials, you are part of a government which is clearly
:09:04. > :09:08.tolerating a far greater number of immigrants than the supporters of
:09:09. > :09:14.your party want to see. Let's have a realistic view of this. For example,
:09:15. > :09:19.Germany who saw 1.1 million. This is huge, catastrophic. No country could
:09:20. > :09:27.have been unaffected by this issue. That is the fact. Of course, we want
:09:28. > :09:33.to get back control. Now, Finland is controlling the situation. Of
:09:34. > :09:36.course, now we have delivered. Is not really controlling the
:09:37. > :09:44.situation, a lot of the situation is being controlled by the EU Council
:09:45. > :09:50.and the commission. Many decisions affect Finland, for example the one
:09:51. > :09:58.for one deal with Turkey. On that deal, the implication of that deal
:09:59. > :10:11.is that future refugees, including Syrians, will be sent back in. Bak.
:10:12. > :10:18.In exchange, the EU will take 141 exchanges from Turkey. Are you
:10:19. > :10:25.committing to that? We always keep our promises. That is Finland's word
:10:26. > :10:31.of honour. How many are you prepared to take? We have committed to taking
:10:32. > :10:42.600 already. That is not anywhere what the EU will require from you.
:10:43. > :10:46.The EU will make a decision, a few months ago they said 160000 and they
:10:47. > :10:51.have not delivered. There are only a few countries who have made their
:10:52. > :10:57.share, cement, Luxembourg and Sweden are among those. In the quota from
:10:58. > :11:02.last year, Finland was told you would take 2078. How many have you
:11:03. > :11:10.actually taken? A little bit of a 100. Again, I am wondering whether
:11:11. > :11:14.whatever rhetorical commitments you make to join in collective burden
:11:15. > :11:20.sharing in the EU, should we take you seriously? Of course. We haven't
:11:21. > :11:25.broken any of our promises. Coming back to the basic numbers question,
:11:26. > :11:30.the numbers are going to have to rise given the one for one deal. If
:11:31. > :11:34.it ever happens, countries like Finland will have to take
:11:35. > :11:38.substantial numbers, at least several thousand. Are you prepared
:11:39. > :11:43.to do that? First, when we didn't have any kind of agreement, we had
:11:44. > :11:49.to take 32,000 from our western border. That was uncontrolled. They
:11:50. > :11:56.don't know who is coming and who is not. Now, if we make a deal, we have
:11:57. > :12:02.thousands to come. But they are collected from the hotspots or from
:12:03. > :12:09.the account is. We know who they are. We know what they are entitled
:12:10. > :12:16.to and that they are entitled to asylum. That is important. Asking
:12:17. > :12:24.you one more time, can you put a figure on how many refugees Finland
:12:25. > :12:33.is prepared to take? A national quota is 1050 at the moment. It will
:12:34. > :12:39.rise? Will see. Talking about Russia, in the first two months of
:12:40. > :12:45.this year, almost 1000 people crossed from Russia into Finland.
:12:46. > :12:48.Since then, you have spoken to Russia and they seem to have stemmed
:12:49. > :12:53.the flow. But many people say that the only way in the long run to
:12:54. > :12:57.ensure the security of Europe in terms of immigration is to build
:12:58. > :13:02.fences. One of those might have to be between Finland and Russia. Are
:13:03. > :13:08.you prepared to do that? No. We have a long tradition to co-operate with
:13:09. > :13:18.Russia. We don't have any fear, we know that we have been delivering.
:13:19. > :13:22.There was also a very challenging situation when Russia was under
:13:23. > :13:34.Communist rule. We need an agreement and good co-operation with our
:13:35. > :13:40.border officials. Do you trust Putin's Russia? This is the
:13:41. > :13:44.political reality, we cannot change the geopolitics. We have to be
:13:45. > :13:48.there, we have the hand we have been given and we are playing with that
:13:49. > :13:53.hand. You say it's not a matter of trust, but there are certain
:13:54. > :13:58.challenges and options that Finland must deal with that? You see what
:13:59. > :14:04.has happened in the Ukraine, torture and other places that you could say
:14:05. > :14:13.were at some time, part of the Ukrainian empire. You've been there.
:14:14. > :14:19.For 100 years. We have learned from that. Have you learned that you need
:14:20. > :14:25.to be in Nato? Not necessarily. It is up to people to decide. This
:14:26. > :14:34.government is making a Nato review on this issue. But what we think
:14:35. > :14:39.about is that Russian people, they know that we'd defend ourselves, or
:14:40. > :14:46.whatever it takes. That is, you cannot change the world and the
:14:47. > :14:50.geographical fact is. When you say we will defend ourselves whatever it
:14:51. > :14:55.takes, the Russians hear that kind of language and the fact that your
:14:56. > :14:58.government is considering Nato membership. They see that as hostile
:14:59. > :15:04.and respond to it by saying things like this. Russia's Ambassador to
:15:05. > :15:09.Sweden, warning of consequences if Finland goes ahead with a Nato
:15:10. > :15:13.application for membership. Another adviser to President Putin, said
:15:14. > :15:19.Finland should think of the consequences if it considers joining
:15:20. > :15:20.Nato. They must ask themselves if they are prepared to start world War
:15:21. > :15:31.three? We are an independent country and we
:15:32. > :15:34.will make our own decisions, always and every time. You are the Foreign
:15:35. > :15:39.Minister. You tell me what you believe to be the right option.
:15:40. > :15:42.Should Finland joint NATO? That door should be open, but we are now
:15:43. > :15:47.terribly nonaligned in the sense that we are not members of the
:15:48. > :15:56.military alliance, but we are cooperating with NATO, in Irbil, in
:15:57. > :16:00.Lebanon, we are in many places. I know that, you have joined some
:16:01. > :16:06.operations and you have also seen Russians building a military pace
:16:07. > :16:10.just 50 metres from your border, you have seen the aerial violations in
:16:11. > :16:13.Scandinavia. You know what games but it is playing so I will ask you one
:16:14. > :16:17.more time. You are the Foreign Minister. You must have an opinion
:16:18. > :16:20.on this. In the long run... I am the Foreign Minister of this government
:16:21. > :16:24.and I follow the government programme, which I just told you
:16:25. > :16:27.what it was. Well, that is interesting. You are becoming quite
:16:28. > :16:30.a loyalist to your government even though you used to have strong
:16:31. > :16:37.opinions on all sorts of things. Let's leave NATO on one side. If I
:16:38. > :16:42.make an agreement, I keep my word. Well, one thing you used to give
:16:43. > :16:46.your word on to the members of your party and to the country was that
:16:47. > :16:52.you were an opponent of the eurozone. You felt that it was
:16:53. > :16:55.damaging for Finland, and you also felt that it was, in a sense,
:16:56. > :16:59.northern Europe bankrolling southern Europe. And you said, and it was a
:17:00. > :17:04.famous quote at the time that there were parts of the eurozone that had
:17:05. > :17:10.gangrene and should be amputated. Yes, that's right, and what has
:17:11. > :17:14.happened... At it can't be a bit dated, you were talking about
:17:15. > :17:20.Greece, Spain, Portugal... The crisis is far from over. Yes, but I
:17:21. > :17:23.come back to this point, I keep repeating it. You are now the
:17:24. > :17:29.Foreign Minister in this government. You go to the eurozone meetings, you
:17:30. > :17:32.go to... I don't go to the eurozone itself. You are not the Finance
:17:33. > :17:35.Minister but the point is you are part of a government which is now
:17:36. > :17:42.committed to staying in the eurozone. The fact is that we must
:17:43. > :17:50.fight with the best interests of the Finnish people everytime. What good
:17:51. > :17:54.would it be the people to leave it on the floor? It is a question of
:17:55. > :17:57.principle, though. There are many people in your party who are very
:17:58. > :18:01.strong supporters of the idea of pushing for a referendum of
:18:02. > :18:04.continued Finnish membership of the euro. Of course they want to get
:18:05. > :18:07.out. What do you say to those members of your own party who are
:18:08. > :18:12.pushing for a referendum on the euro? The majority of the party
:18:13. > :18:16.elected me unanimously a few months ago, and they know that I am
:18:17. > :18:20.defining and delivering a party programme. So that is the mainstream
:18:21. > :18:24.of the party and that is how it should be carried out, and that is
:18:25. > :18:27.how it functions. Not to be clear, as I understand it in the next few
:18:28. > :18:36.weeks a Parliamentary debate will be held on whether to have a national
:18:37. > :18:41.referendum on what they call Fexit, your exit from the eurozone. What is
:18:42. > :18:45.your permission on that? That is the case, there is not that kind of deal
:18:46. > :18:49.but it is guaranteed, if the majority of Parliament doesn't want
:18:50. > :18:52.it, it doesn't exist. No, I understand that but you have an
:18:53. > :18:57.important voice. Not just for your party but for the nation. And I want
:18:58. > :19:01.to know what your opinion is today. Would Finland be better off outside
:19:02. > :19:05.the eurozone? And would you, if they were to be a referendum would you
:19:06. > :19:09.campaign to get out of the eurozone? This thing has a background. And the
:19:10. > :19:13.background was that we were never allowed a referendum in the
:19:14. > :19:21.eurozone, as Sweden did, as Denmark did. And that has a lot of people
:19:22. > :19:27.feeling not well. Because we were never asked. And that is where it
:19:28. > :19:30.comes from. And of course I said openly that I wouldn't have joined
:19:31. > :19:37.the euro. But what is now needed, if you want to get rid of it and get
:19:38. > :19:40.Fexit, you must have the majority of the people and the majority of the
:19:41. > :19:46.Parliament to agree. And that is not the situation at the moment. Because
:19:47. > :19:49.you are now inside government, and in the course of this interview you
:19:50. > :19:53.have illustrated how to a certain extent you have had to modify some
:19:54. > :20:01.of your language and some of your policy positions, what has happened
:20:02. > :20:04.to all of the anger and resentment that you use the channel, and which
:20:05. > :20:08.is still in Finland but which you are not channelling any because you
:20:09. > :20:13.are now a big player inside the government. What has happened to
:20:14. > :20:18.that anger, where has it gone? The anger is always there but our party
:20:19. > :20:22.didn't grow out of anger. Our party did grow out of political patients
:20:23. > :20:29.and political assessments. That is what we grew out of. And as I said,
:20:30. > :20:33.we had a background from the Peasants Party, we were very
:20:34. > :20:38.critical to communism and that was the mainstream and this background
:20:39. > :20:41.of the party. We had all kinds of people, we were the second biggest
:20:42. > :20:45.in the government at the last election, second the guest. But the
:20:46. > :20:49.point is, looking at the most recent opinion polls, and I'm sure you look
:20:50. > :20:53.at them more closely than I do, having got ready much 18% in the
:20:54. > :20:57.last elections, you are now down to 10% or even lower. You have lost a
:20:58. > :21:00.lot of support. And I put it to you that some of that support has moved
:21:01. > :21:04.perhaps to the more extreme right. We see some phenomena in Finland
:21:05. > :21:11.today which are very worrying, for examples are Soldiers of Odin
:21:12. > :21:17.organisation. They have nothing to do with us. No, but the point is
:21:18. > :21:20.that some people feel you have betrayed the cause of true Finn
:21:21. > :21:24.nationalism by going over to them. We haven't betrayed anybody, not a
:21:25. > :21:25.single one. There were some people in your party who you're fired, one
:21:26. > :21:33.guy who said in your party who you're fired, one
:21:34. > :21:37.guy who who used to be the deputy leader of your party, he says you
:21:38. > :21:44.guillotined him. It was for his own decision. I don't think that's how
:21:45. > :21:48.he felt about being guillotined. You must ask him. The serious point is,
:21:49. > :21:52.this isn't just about Finland. Right across Europe there are dangerous,
:21:53. > :21:56.alarming signs of radicalism and extremism on the far right. What do
:21:57. > :22:09.you think is the best way to deal with that, including the Soldiers of
:22:10. > :22:14.Odin inside Finland. First we must make a definition. The Finns Party
:22:15. > :22:19.is not an extreme party. You cannot imagine that Finns Party would hold
:22:20. > :22:23.a Deputy Prime Minister seat. And when we talk about these issues it
:22:24. > :22:29.seems to be forgotten many times. The second biggest economic agenda,
:22:30. > :22:35.education agenda, all kinds of these kinds of agendas, and when we
:22:36. > :22:41.usually just talk about of these minorities, but I am heavily against
:22:42. > :22:47.all kinds of violence, all kinds of malfeasance in human rights. Except
:22:48. > :22:53.you did say earlier that everybody deserves a second chance, even those
:22:54. > :22:57.who are stealing. I said in his case he earned a second chance but I
:22:58. > :23:04.never, ever accept anything racist. And you cannot find a single quarter
:23:05. > :23:11.for me saying for 40 years roughly in my political career that I have a
:23:12. > :23:15.single racist thing ever. And I am the leader of the party. Yes, you
:23:16. > :23:20.are. And a final point, which I think again has resonance not just
:23:21. > :23:24.for Finland but for Europe, one of the leading political scientist in
:23:25. > :23:28.the country says this. So far, for what has happened in Finland since
:23:29. > :23:32.the 2015 election, it looks like it is possible to tame a populist
:23:33. > :23:39.party. If they are in a minority position in a coalition government,
:23:40. > :23:41.they have to make concessions. The sorts of concessions that make their
:23:42. > :23:45.own supporters unhappy. That's the truth, isn't it? This is funny,
:23:46. > :23:52.because I wrote my own thesis at the University of Helsinki 1988,
:23:53. > :23:58.delivering the same kinds of stuff, what he says right now. You agree
:23:59. > :24:04.with him? You have been tamed? Not tamed, but the situation has
:24:05. > :24:07.changed. And then, when it has changed we must live in the world
:24:08. > :24:16.we're living in. You don't like the word tamed. Of course, well, it is
:24:17. > :24:18.unjust. Timo Soini, we have to end there, but thank you very much for
:24:19. > :24:26.being on HARDtalk. OK, thank you.