0:00:02 > 0:00:09Now on BBC News, it's time for Hardtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:09Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:11I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13Frustration and anger are the common currency
0:00:13 > 0:00:15of today's European politics.
0:00:15 > 0:00:17On the right, there's a resurgent nationalism, fuelled
0:00:17 > 0:00:20by fears of immigration, and, on the left, well, on the left, the
0:00:20 > 0:00:31enemy is austerity and an economic system seen as serving the elite.
0:00:31 > 0:00:34My guest today is one of the most powerful voices
0:00:34 > 0:00:36in Europe's radical left, Yanis Varoufakis, the motorbike
0:00:36 > 0:00:38riding, former Greek Finance Minister who confronted the powers
0:00:38 > 0:00:41that be during the darkest days of Greece's debt crisis and lost...
0:00:41 > 0:00:42Or did he?
0:00:42 > 0:00:42Yanis Varoufakis, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:16 > 0:01:17Yanis Varoufakis, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20It's great to be here.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23When you reflect on your own life and Greece's turbulent
0:01:23 > 0:01:26life over the last, say, 15 months or so, do you reflect with a deep
0:01:26 > 0:01:31sense of disappointment, failure?
0:01:31 > 0:01:31Oh, no.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33Nothing could be further from the truth.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36Life is a constant battle and waging it is where
0:01:36 > 0:01:37the satisfaction comes out of.
0:01:37 > 0:01:41In the end, we are all dead - it does not mean we do not wake up
0:01:41 > 0:01:48in the morning full of zest.
0:01:48 > 0:01:50Well, that's a very interesting way of putting it.
0:01:50 > 0:01:54Life is a constant battle but nobody wants to spend life losing battles
0:01:54 > 0:01:55and you fought and you lost?
0:01:55 > 0:01:56Not necessarily.
0:01:56 > 0:02:00Losing the good battle, waging the fight that has to be
0:02:00 > 0:02:03fought, if you feel that it is a good cause, is a source
0:02:03 > 0:02:10of great satisfaction and pride.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14Even when you look at Greece today, you a country that is still tied to
0:02:14 > 0:02:16the so-called Troika bailout package, desperately trying to
0:02:16 > 0:02:18negotiate the latest instalment of the third bailout, you see former
0:02:18 > 0:02:20comrades like Alexis Tsipras, the prime minister,
0:02:20 > 0:02:23now managing a process which you have described in the past
0:02:23 > 0:02:37as little more than terrorism inflicted upon your country?
0:02:37 > 0:02:40Well, there is no doubt we have an extremely sad affair
0:02:40 > 0:02:41in the case of Greece.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44Greece went bankrupt in 2010 and since then the powers that be,
0:02:44 > 0:02:54including in Athens but everywhere in Europe...
0:02:54 > 0:02:56Including your former comrades, the party that you served for -
0:02:56 > 0:02:57what was it?
0:02:57 > 0:02:58- 6-7 months...
0:02:58 > 0:03:01Including every government that has served since 2010, the IMF...
0:03:01 > 0:03:03they have all been, in the end serving a gross denial
0:03:03 > 0:03:06by extending the crisis into the future, pretending they have solved
0:03:06 > 0:03:09it through, you know, just adding unsustainable debt on unpayable debt
0:03:09 > 0:03:10and this sounds like a historical incident of some interest but,
0:03:11 > 0:03:15in reality - that is why it is extremely disappointing - because we
0:03:15 > 0:03:18are talking about real people, here, we are talking about kids that faint
0:03:18 > 0:03:31at school from malnutrition, we are talking about a lost generation.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34But I suppose what interests me most is that it was supposed to
0:03:34 > 0:03:37be different after 2015.
0:03:37 > 0:03:41You know, you talk about the crisis going back to 2010, and you're quite
0:03:41 > 0:03:44right to do so, the crisis has been deep and long, but something
0:03:44 > 0:03:47happened in 2015 - the Greek people voted for a radical left alternative
0:03:47 > 0:03:58- the Syriza party.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02You, having said that you would "never, never, never" - and that'sa
0:04:02 > 0:04:05direct quote - "serve in politics," answered the call from Alexis
0:04:05 > 0:04:07Tsipras, and joined the Syriza-led government in an effort to
0:04:07 > 0:04:10fundamentally change the deal in Greece and Greece's deal with
0:04:10 > 0:04:10the European Union.
0:04:10 > 0:04:11Precisely.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13We stood on a platform of speaking through to power -
0:04:13 > 0:04:16and power of course is the Troika lenders, of creditors of Greece.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20Our pact was based - the pact of those who served in the
0:04:20 > 0:04:23first government that was elected in January, 2015 - was very simple.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26We are going to go to Brussels, and we're going to go to Washington,
0:04:26 > 0:04:30and we're going to go to Frankfurt and say to them, the program that
0:04:30 > 0:04:35you have been implementing in Greece has been a spectacular failure, the
0:04:35 > 0:04:39greatest macro-economic disaster in the history of the IMF,
0:04:39 > 0:04:42for instance - a third of our income dissipated, unemployment
0:04:42 > 0:04:45jumped up by 20% - imagine that, one in two families do not have
0:04:45 > 0:04:50a waged person in their midst.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54And we are going to say to them, we need to reboot.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57We're no longer going to sign on the dotted line of loan
0:04:57 > 0:04:59agreements without having secured that these new loan agreement is
0:04:59 > 0:05:09going to be sustainable.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12And we were, I thought, absolutely united in that and we were not going
0:05:12 > 0:05:16to back away, but in the end, a wedge was pushed between us.
0:05:16 > 0:05:23We were divided by the end, and once you get divided, you fall.
0:05:23 > 0:05:23Yeah, you fell.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26I mean, I look back at some of the things you said
0:05:26 > 0:05:28at the time you took the job.
0:05:28 > 0:05:30Having said you wouldn't do politics, you said, well,
0:05:30 > 0:05:33I can't resist this call, it's too important, my country's at stake.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36You said that we are going to do things differently -
0:05:36 > 0:05:39"we are going to destroy the country's oligarch who viciously
0:05:39 > 0:05:41sucks the energy and the economic power from everybody else."
0:05:41 > 0:05:45Your message was we are going to be truly radical to change Greece
0:05:45 > 0:05:45for ever.
0:05:45 > 0:05:45Why?
0:05:45 > 0:05:57(CROSSTALK).
0:05:57 > 0:05:57Not necessarily...
0:05:57 > 0:06:00I am not accusing left or right, at the moment,
0:06:00 > 0:06:01I'm just saying you refused...
0:06:01 > 0:06:04The crisis was so deep that left, right, commonsense could prevail.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07We needed to do three things - first, we needed to restructure
0:06:07 > 0:06:08and negotiate an unsustainable debt because,
0:06:08 > 0:06:10if you are bankrupt, that's it.
0:06:10 > 0:06:12There is no life beyond that.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15It's like being in the shadow of Mephistopheles all the time.
0:06:15 > 0:06:18Secondly, we would have to have credible fiscal targets so that we
0:06:18 > 0:06:21would never fall back into deficit position but, at the same time not
0:06:21 > 0:06:24have huge surplus targets that are unbelievable and therefore deeply
0:06:24 > 0:06:33further your credibility stock.
0:06:33 > 0:06:34And thirdly, attack the oligarchy, attack corruption,
0:06:35 > 0:06:35reform Greece deeply.
0:06:35 > 0:06:40These were the three things we needed to do.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43But there is arrogance, a hubris there, because the assumption you're
0:06:43 > 0:06:46making is it was within your power and remit to decide how
0:06:46 > 0:06:47to prioritise and what to do?
0:06:47 > 0:06:49But, of course, Greece was essentially bust.
0:06:49 > 0:06:53It was totally reliant on the money coming from outsiders and
0:06:53 > 0:06:56therefore outsiders had - clearly had - the right to decide how Greece
0:06:56 > 0:07:00should get itself out of this mess?
0:07:00 > 0:07:01Well, I think you are overstating it.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04Since when does debt mean that you have lost formally
0:07:04 > 0:07:12and fully your national sovereignty and foreigners will decide
0:07:12 > 0:07:19everything about your country...?
0:07:19 > 0:07:21Well, I am not saying everything.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23Think about any arrangement which involves a loan and a debt -
0:07:23 > 0:07:26there is a choice to be made on both sides.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29You only loan the money if you are sure and have promises...
0:07:29 > 0:07:31Ah-ha.
0:07:31 > 0:07:33About how that money is going to be used.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36So why did they land this money to a bankrupt state?
0:07:36 > 0:07:382010 where the largest loan in absolute terms
0:07:38 > 0:07:40in human history given to the most bankrupt European state,
0:07:40 > 0:07:43you know, it takes an irresponsible lender and an irresponsible borrower
0:07:43 > 0:07:46to forge this kind of pact.
0:07:46 > 0:07:53(CROSSTALK).
0:07:53 > 0:07:55Indeed but the power and the cards lie...
0:07:55 > 0:07:56But to answer your question...
0:07:56 > 0:07:58Going forward the real power lies with the lender
0:07:58 > 0:08:02not with the borrower because the borrower is going to go bust...
0:08:02 > 0:08:02Not exactly.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04If you owe 320 billion euros, you have some power.
0:08:04 > 0:08:05Yeah?
0:08:05 > 0:08:08If you owe ?3,000 to the bank then you have no power.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10But if you owe 300 billion, and you are part of
0:08:10 > 0:08:13an interconnected financial system, you are not completely devoid
0:08:13 > 0:08:18of power but that is not the issue.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20Let's set aside for the moment the question of bargaining power.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23When I went to Europe group and to meet Dr Schauble...
0:08:23 > 0:08:25I want to talk a lot about that...
0:08:25 > 0:08:27I am referring to what you just said.
0:08:27 > 0:08:30What I took with me, in my suitcase, was a willingness to sit
0:08:30 > 0:08:34down with them, not to dictate to them what should happen in Greece
0:08:34 > 0:08:38but sit down with them and work out a manageable fiscal
0:08:38 > 0:08:42and reform consolidation programme.
0:08:42 > 0:08:46The trouble was, they were not interested.
0:08:46 > 0:08:49This is the very first time in history that creditors did not
0:08:49 > 0:08:50want their money back.
0:08:50 > 0:08:51Hang on a minute.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54You talk about going to the euro group,
0:08:54 > 0:08:58and sitting there with Schauble and all the others - you took a style
0:08:58 > 0:09:01with you, a style that was designed to antagonise, send a message...
0:09:01 > 0:09:03What, I do not wear a tie?
0:09:03 > 0:09:06Of course, you wore your leather jacket, we all know that...
0:09:06 > 0:09:08No, I did not wear my leather jacket (CROSSTALK).
0:09:08 > 0:09:10I can assure you.
0:09:10 > 0:09:14It was not about what you wore, whether you had atie on, whether you
0:09:14 > 0:09:18came on your motorbike - it wasn't about any of that - it was about
0:09:18 > 0:09:22the inflammatory language, accusing them of fiscal waterboarding...
0:09:22 > 0:09:23There was no inflammatory language.
0:09:23 > 0:09:24You called them terrorists!
0:09:24 > 0:09:26No, no, no.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29Get your chronology right.
0:09:29 > 0:09:29I used...
0:09:29 > 0:09:32Firstly I never caught anyone a terrorist.
0:09:32 > 0:09:39What I said was, in the first week of July, after our banks were closed
0:09:39 > 0:09:40down by our central bank, why?
0:09:40 > 0:09:42Was there a problem with the banks?
0:09:42 > 0:09:44No.
0:09:44 > 0:09:48The central bank of Europe - the ECB - had proclaimed our banks to be
0:09:48 > 0:09:51solvent and why did they close them?
0:09:51 > 0:09:53In order to force us, the elected government,
0:09:53 > 0:10:02to accept massive pension cuts, massive austerity cuts.
0:10:02 > 0:10:03Yeah?
0:10:03 > 0:10:05Now, what is the spread of fear in order
0:10:05 > 0:10:06to attain political objectives?
0:10:06 > 0:10:07It is terrorism.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10And so, by that stage...
0:10:10 > 0:10:17Fiscal waterboarding as well, that is torture.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20These are people you say, "I approach with an open mind, trying
0:10:20 > 0:10:23collectively to find a way out of this crisis that would help the
0:10:24 > 0:10:25Greek economy and the Greek people."
0:10:25 > 0:10:27You say that and then I refer back to every
0:10:27 > 0:10:29attitude you took into the room.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32You made a point of being the antipolitics politician but the
0:10:32 > 0:10:34way you did it just does not work.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37Stephen, Stephen, when a new government is elected to
0:10:37 > 0:10:45confront creditors and to say to them that in your
0:10:45 > 0:10:47interest, too, and in the interest of our long-suffering nation
0:10:47 > 0:10:50in a great depression, we have to sit down and find common ground.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53At that moment, you have to set aside all this brimstone
0:10:53 > 0:10:58and noise and get down to work.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01The fact that for five years, all previous governments were being
0:11:01 > 0:11:06fiscally waterboarded is indisputable.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08Think of what has been happening since today.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11It is happening as we speak.
0:11:11 > 0:11:15You can continue to use that language if you like but I then
0:11:15 > 0:11:18reflect upon Christine Lagarde, at the height of the crisis, in June,
0:11:18 > 0:11:212015, coming out of a meeting with you and saying, with just total
0:11:21 > 0:11:25frustration, "it would be nice if we had some adults in the room."
0:11:25 > 0:11:29Stephen, she had not come out of a meeting with me when she said that.
0:11:29 > 0:11:33Who do you think she was talking about?
0:11:33 > 0:11:34Well, I'm not going to divulge this.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37It is not for me, you have to ask her.
0:11:37 > 0:11:46But, look, when I first met Christine Lagarde -
0:11:46 > 0:11:49since you're refering to Christine - we had conversation
0:11:49 > 0:11:52one-hour long conversation and we actually agreed on all the basic
0:11:52 > 0:11:54failures of the previous programme.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57Indeed, with Paul Thompson, who is the European chief
0:11:57 > 0:12:00of the International Monetary Fund, a very close associate of Christine
0:12:00 > 0:12:02Lagarde, we had agreed that the previous programmes had failed
0:12:02 > 0:12:10because there was no serious debt restruction involved,
0:12:10 > 0:12:13that the way of managing previous Greek governments by the Troika was
0:12:13 > 0:12:15effectively the strategy of fiscal waterboarding, which is what?
0:12:15 > 0:12:19You bring the subject to the point of no return
0:12:19 > 0:12:22and then you let the subject have a gulp of air - or liquidity, in the
0:12:22 > 0:12:30case of Greece - and then you repeat and you repeat and you repeat.
0:12:30 > 0:12:37This has been the pattern since May, 2010, and the result is the loss of
0:12:37 > 0:12:41one third of income and an ability to repay our debts to our creditors.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44The point is, and we come back to the opening of
0:12:44 > 0:12:47this conversation about senses pf failure - the point is that you, in
0:12:47 > 0:12:50the end, were thrown overboard by your former colleague, and the guy
0:12:50 > 0:12:51who hired you, Alexis Tsipras.
0:12:51 > 0:12:52No, this is not what happened...
0:12:52 > 0:12:54This is not what happened.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58It is what happened.
0:12:58 > 0:12:59No, it's not.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02Essentially, he said I'm going to let you go because the euro group
0:13:02 > 0:13:03cannot work with you anymore.
0:13:03 > 0:13:04That's not what happened.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07Do you want me to tell you what happened?
0:13:07 > 0:13:08You tell me what happened.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11From the end of April onwards, Alexis Tsipras and I started
0:13:11 > 0:13:13diverging in our views of what the right strategy should be.
0:13:13 > 0:13:18He was making compromises which, as far as I was concerned, were lethal,
0:13:18 > 0:13:23in the sense that they were...
0:13:23 > 0:13:29he was accepting for instant fiscal targets impossible to achieve.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32My view was, the moment you start doing that, you lose credibility and
0:13:32 > 0:13:35then at some point you're going to have to surrender and capitulate.
0:13:36 > 0:13:39That happened.
0:13:39 > 0:13:41Let me tell you...
0:13:41 > 0:13:43(CROSSTALK) when that happened, when he said to me on
0:13:43 > 0:13:47the referendum, when we called upon the Greek people to back us, not to
0:13:47 > 0:13:50capitulate, that night we met and he said it is time to surrender and
0:13:50 > 0:13:54at that point I said, not for me.
0:13:54 > 0:13:58We parted amicably, having disagreed on whether the right course
0:13:58 > 0:14:02of action at that moment was to continue the confrontation with the
0:14:02 > 0:14:07Troika creditors that were imposing upon us strings and measures that
0:14:07 > 0:14:10made it absolutely impossible for Greece, firstly,
0:14:10 > 0:14:17to recover and, secondly, to pay its debts, or to capitulate.
0:14:17 > 0:14:20When he decided as a Prime Minister's want is, to capitulate,
0:14:20 > 0:14:22it was time for me to resign.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25I was not thrown overboard.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29I was made aware of the absence and it was supposed to be
0:14:29 > 0:14:30potentially helpful.
0:14:30 > 0:14:37So the Tsipras did not want you and he knew that, and...
0:14:37 > 0:14:39It is not one voice.
0:14:39 > 0:14:40We can talk about individuals.
0:14:40 > 0:14:44You became toxic.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47I did not become toxic and I was a major inconvenience.
0:14:47 > 0:14:55Because I was the first Finance Minister.
0:14:55 > 0:14:56And this gets personal.
0:14:56 > 0:15:13Before you get there...
0:15:13 > 0:15:15Let me tell you why I was so despised.
0:15:15 > 0:15:17Either we capitulate and accept the programme
0:15:17 > 0:15:19of the previous governments that had failed so spectacularly or
0:15:20 > 0:15:21the banks would be closed.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24I made it abundantly clear that I shall never submit to such
0:15:24 > 0:15:24blackmail.
0:15:24 > 0:15:25Tsipras understood that.
0:15:25 > 0:15:27It was very important to him that I should be sidelined.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31As the Finance Minister of the Bank of State I would not sign
0:15:31 > 0:15:34on another loan knowing that we would not be able to repay it.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37This is what a sensible, rational, moderate Finance Minister should do.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40If you are running a business, the BBC or a company, you should
0:15:40 > 0:16:14never accept a loan if your existing loans and not sustainable.
0:16:14 > 0:16:15You were a radical.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17When radicalism hits it, reality trumps radicalism.
0:16:17 > 0:16:21That was the message that came out in the summer of 2015 and it is
0:16:21 > 0:16:24the message that comes out today in many different parts of Europe.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27There are powerful voices like yours that propounded a very radical
0:16:27 > 0:16:42leftist view of European economics.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44That is not the basis of it.
0:16:44 > 0:16:45Explain to me why?
0:16:45 > 0:16:49I ask you all to go to my website or any Google search engine and look
0:16:49 > 0:16:52at my proposals as Minister of Finance on the 11th of May 2015.
0:16:52 > 0:16:54What were our proposals to the Troika of lenders?
0:16:54 > 0:17:07They were the most moderate proposals we have.
0:17:07 > 0:17:09You are not in power any more.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12Greece is desperately trying to maintain the third bailout deal.
0:17:12 > 0:17:20You, in all respect...
0:17:20 > 0:17:22Ran a county that did not fail.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24We needed to have a radical minister.
0:17:24 > 0:17:26This is the depth of the European crisis.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29You need to have a radical left wing minister to propose common sense.
0:17:29 > 0:17:31Commonsense is in very short supply in Europe.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34Is Greece better off as a result of my defeat and my removal?
0:17:34 > 0:17:34No.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37We are deeper into the mire than we were a year ago.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40If my proposals had been accepted instead of the Troika,
0:17:40 > 0:17:41would we be better off?
0:17:41 > 0:17:41Definitely.
0:17:41 > 0:17:42It is indisputable.
0:17:42 > 0:17:44Look at the proposals and ask top-notch economists
0:17:44 > 0:17:46around the world, which are better or more sensible?
0:17:46 > 0:17:49Which would have given the Greek Nationals a chance to recover?
0:17:49 > 0:18:18After my removal, why did it happen?
0:18:18 > 0:18:21I don't want to get stuck on the past because there are
0:18:21 > 0:18:30important things to talk about.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33You are leaving an impression that a radical minister left
0:18:33 > 0:18:33and moderation prevailed.
0:18:33 > 0:18:35And moderate minister, released a radical minister
0:18:35 > 0:18:37proposing moderate policies was removed, and idiocy prevailed.
0:18:37 > 0:18:40Let me give you one example because your audience has to hear this.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43One of the things I would not sign into
0:18:43 > 0:18:46law was increasing the corporate tax in a country that was broken
0:18:46 > 0:18:49and the imposition of prepaying next year's tax a year in advance for
0:18:49 > 0:19:10small businesses that were broken.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12You are not reconciled to your defeat, are you?
0:19:12 > 0:19:14Well...
0:19:14 > 0:19:17You are not reconciled and you now run a movement that you
0:19:17 > 0:19:20say has the capacity to completely reshape Europe in a democratic way.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22Your argument is that the European Union
0:19:22 > 0:19:24as they are currently constituted is currently undemocratic
0:19:24 > 0:19:25and it is killing Europe.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28I just wonder how you believe you're going to persuade the European
0:19:28 > 0:19:46public as a whole of this argument?
0:19:46 > 0:19:48Firstly, the movement is not me.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51But since you are focusing on my past, and my record, it is
0:19:51 > 0:19:52important that we set it straight.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55In my six months in the finance ministry I put
0:19:55 > 0:19:56forward certain proposal.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58I consider them to be the only chance, even today,
0:19:58 > 0:20:00of Greece's recovery and of healing within the eurozone.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03I may be wrong or I may be right.
0:20:03 > 0:20:10When did that happen exactly?
0:20:10 > 0:20:12Well...
0:20:12 > 0:20:14You just slipped in a major way.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16When I was the most severe supporter of this
0:20:16 > 0:20:34process, with 62% of the votes.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37And the next day the Prime Minister said we're going to back
0:20:37 > 0:20:37the deal anyway.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40Do not say it was the Greek people who rejected the proposals.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43They are not even in first place any more.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46In that case, I need to get your ideas on the future of Europe
0:20:46 > 0:20:50because such a big debate, not least in Europe, and there is an argument
0:20:50 > 0:20:53about whether Europe can be changed from within or actually Europe is go
0:20:53 > 0:20:55to have to collapse before anything else can be rebuilt
0:20:55 > 0:20:56and something better.
0:20:56 > 0:21:15What is your view?
0:21:15 > 0:21:18There is no doubt that what we have created is a monster.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20We have created a European Union which is deeply contemptuous
0:21:20 > 0:21:21of the democratic process.
0:21:21 > 0:21:25This is the reason why I had to resign and not to pursue what I
0:21:25 > 0:21:39consider to be modern policy.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42But you wanted to stay in the eurozone and you now advise Britain
0:21:42 > 0:21:44to stay in the European Union.
0:21:44 > 0:21:45But you call it a monster.
0:21:45 > 0:21:46It seems entirely contrary.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49Well I got in a country with a monstrous regime and we either
0:21:49 > 0:21:53had to get out of it or to abandon it or to see it be dismembered.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56I wanted to be democratised after our dictatorship in the 1960s.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58The same thing applies to the European Union.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01If we had not created the European Union and the eurozone,
0:22:01 > 0:22:03we should not have had consent to the creation.
0:22:03 > 0:22:13Is that OK?
0:22:13 > 0:22:18As they currently exist...
0:22:18 > 0:22:20But now that they exist, dismembering it, fragmenting it,
0:22:20 > 0:22:24is going to take us where we want to be had we not created at.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26It is going to throw us into a terrible abyss.
0:22:26 > 0:22:27What is going to happen?
0:22:27 > 0:22:31My prediction, and tell me if you agree with me or not, is that
0:22:31 > 0:22:34there is going to be a huge fault line with Germany, Austria, the
0:22:34 > 0:22:37Netherlands, Poland all forming a zone which will immediately go to a
0:22:37 > 0:22:39big recession as its currency appreciates through the roof.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41The rest of Europe, Latin Europe with Greece,
0:22:41 > 0:22:44maybe Ireland, is going to go in a stagflation situation because their
0:22:44 > 0:22:46currencies are going to depreciate.
0:22:46 > 0:22:48This will create a vortex, and Britain as well
0:22:48 > 0:22:51as other nations that are inappropriate for all of this vortex
0:22:51 > 0:22:52are going to fall into it.
0:22:52 > 0:22:56There is no way that we as Europeans are going to escape if this monster
0:22:56 > 0:22:59of the European Union disintegrates under the weight of its hubris
0:22:59 > 0:23:00and discontent for democracy.
0:23:00 > 0:23:44It is our monster and we better civilise it.
0:23:44 > 0:23:45We have to end there.
0:23:45 > 0:23:59Thank you for being on HARDtalk.
0:23:59 > 0:24:04It was a great pleasure.