0:00:06 > 0:00:10Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12Frustration and anger are the common currency
0:00:12 > 0:00:18of today's European politics.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21On the right, there's a resurgent nationalism, fuelled
0:00:21 > 0:00:24by fears of immigration, and, on the left, well, on the left, the
0:00:24 > 0:00:29enemy is austerity and an economic system seen as serving the elite.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33My guest today is one of the most powerful voices
0:00:33 > 0:00:35in Europe's radical left, Yanis Varoufakis, the motorbike
0:00:35 > 0:00:37riding, former Greek Finance Minister who confronted the powers
0:00:37 > 0:00:40that be during the darkest days of Greece's debt crisis and lost...
0:00:40 > 0:00:50Or did he?
0:01:11 > 0:01:14Yanis Varoufakis, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:14 > 0:01:18It's great to be here.
0:01:18 > 0:01:20When you reflect on your own life and Greece's turbulent
0:01:20 > 0:01:24life over the last, say, 15 months or so, do you reflect with a deep
0:01:24 > 0:01:31sense of disappointment, failure?
0:01:31 > 0:01:33Oh, no.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36Nothing could be further from the truth.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38Life is a constant battle and waging it is where
0:01:38 > 0:01:44the satisfaction comes out of.
0:01:44 > 0:01:48In the end, we are all dead - it does not mean we do not wake up
0:01:48 > 0:01:49in the morning full of zest.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52Well, that's a very interesting way of putting it.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55Life is a constant battle but nobody wants to spend life losing battles
0:01:55 > 0:01:58and you fought and you lost?
0:01:58 > 0:01:59Not necessarily.
0:01:59 > 0:02:01Losing the good battle, waging the fight that has to be
0:02:01 > 0:02:05fought, if you feel that it is a good cause, is a source
0:02:05 > 0:02:09of great satisfaction and pride.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14Even when you look at Greece today, you a country that is still tied to
0:02:14 > 0:02:16the so-called Troika bailout package, desperately trying to
0:02:16 > 0:02:24negotiate the latest instalment of the third bailout, you see former
0:02:24 > 0:02:26comrades like Alexis Tsipras, the prime minister,
0:02:26 > 0:02:32now managing a process which you have described in the past
0:02:32 > 0:02:36as little more than terrorism inflicted upon your country?
0:02:36 > 0:02:38Well, there is no doubt we have an extremely sad affair
0:02:38 > 0:02:40in the case of Greece.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43Greece went bankrupt in 2010 and since then the powers that be,
0:02:43 > 0:02:48including in Athens but everywhere in Europe...
0:02:48 > 0:02:51Including your former comrades, the party that you served for -
0:02:51 > 0:02:51what was it?
0:02:51 > 0:02:54- 6-7 months...
0:02:54 > 0:02:58Including every government that has served since 2010, the IMF...
0:02:58 > 0:03:01they have all been, in the end serving a gross denial
0:03:01 > 0:03:04by extending the crisis into the future, pretending they have solved
0:03:04 > 0:03:06it through, you know, just adding unsustainable debt on unpayable debt
0:03:06 > 0:03:09and this sounds like a historical incident of some interest but,
0:03:09 > 0:03:12in reality - the reason why it is extremely disappointing - because we
0:03:12 > 0:03:28are talking about real people, here, we are talking about kids that faint
0:03:28 > 0:03:32at school from malnutrition, we are talking about a lost generation.
0:03:32 > 0:03:35But I suppose what interests me most is that it was supposed to
0:03:35 > 0:03:39be different after 2015.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42You know, you talk about the crisis going back to 2010, and you're quite
0:03:42 > 0:03:45right to do so, the crisis has been deep and long, but something
0:03:45 > 0:03:49happened in 2015 - the Greek people voted for a radical left alternative
0:03:49 > 0:03:50- the Syriza party.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53You, having said that you would "never, never, never" - and that's a
0:03:53 > 0:03:56direct quote - "serve in politics," answered the call from Alexis
0:03:56 > 0:03:58Tsipras, and joined the Syriza-led government in an effort to
0:03:58 > 0:04:01fundamentally change the deal in Greece and Greece's deal with
0:04:01 > 0:04:03the European Union.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06Precisely.
0:04:06 > 0:04:10We stood on a platform of speaking through to power -
0:04:10 > 0:04:14and power of course is the Troika lenders, of creditors of Greece.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18Our pact was based - the pact of those who served in the
0:04:18 > 0:04:23first government that was elected in January, 2015 - was very simple.
0:04:23 > 0:04:28We are going to go to Brussels, and we're going to go to Washington,
0:04:28 > 0:04:32and we're going to go to Frankfurt and say to them, the program that
0:04:32 > 0:04:38you have been implementing in Greece has been a spectacular failure, the
0:04:38 > 0:04:40greatest macro-economic disaster in the history of the IMF,
0:04:40 > 0:04:43for instance - a third of our income dissipated, unemployment
0:04:43 > 0:04:46jumped up by 20% - imagine that, one in two families do not have
0:04:46 > 0:04:52a waged person in their midst.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55And we are going to say to them, we need to reboot.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58We're no longer going to sign on the dotted line of loan
0:04:58 > 0:05:04agreements without having secured that these new loan agreement is
0:05:04 > 0:05:05going to be sustainable.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08And we were, I thought, absolutely united in that and we were not going
0:05:08 > 0:05:12to back away, but in the end, a wedge was pushed between us.
0:05:12 > 0:05:24We were divided by the end, and once you get divided, you fall.
0:05:24 > 0:05:24Yeah, you fell.
0:05:24 > 0:05:28I mean, I look back at some of the things you said
0:05:28 > 0:05:32at the time you took the job.
0:05:32 > 0:05:38Having said you wouldn't do politics, you said, well,
0:05:38 > 0:05:41I can't resist this call, it's too important, my country's at stake.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44You said that we are going to do things differently -
0:05:44 > 0:05:46"we are going to destroy the country's oligarch who viciously
0:05:46 > 0:05:49sucks the energy and the economic power from everybody else."
0:05:49 > 0:05:54Your message was we are going to be truly radical to change Greece
0:05:54 > 0:05:55for ever.
0:05:55 > 0:05:56Why?
0:05:56 > 0:05:59I am not accusing left or right, at the moment,
0:05:59 > 0:06:00I'm just saying you refused...
0:06:00 > 0:06:03The crisis was so deep that left, right, commonsense could prevail.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06We needed to do three things - first, we needed to restructure
0:06:06 > 0:06:07and negotiate an unsustainable debt because,
0:06:07 > 0:06:09if you are bankrupt, that's it.
0:06:09 > 0:06:10There is no life beyond that.
0:06:10 > 0:06:17It's like being in the shadow of Mephistopheles all the time.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20Secondly, we would have to have credible fiscal targets so that we
0:06:20 > 0:06:24would never fall back into deficit position but, at the same time not
0:06:24 > 0:06:27have huge surplus targets that are unbelievable and therefore deplete
0:06:27 > 0:06:28further your credibility stock.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31And thirdly, attack the oligarchy, attack corruption,
0:06:31 > 0:06:35reform Greece deeply.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37These were the three things we needed to do.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40But there is arrogance, a hubris there, because the assumption you're
0:06:40 > 0:06:43making is it was within your power and remit to decide how
0:06:43 > 0:06:50to prioritise and what to do?
0:06:50 > 0:06:51But, of course, Greece was essentially bust.
0:06:51 > 0:06:54It was totally reliant on the money coming from outsiders and
0:06:54 > 0:06:57therefore outsiders had - clearly had - the right to decide how Greece
0:06:57 > 0:07:00should get itself out of this mess?
0:07:00 > 0:07:01Well, I think you are overstating it.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04Since when does debt mean that you have lost formally
0:07:04 > 0:07:06and fully your national sovereignty and foreigners will decide
0:07:06 > 0:07:13everything about your country...?
0:07:13 > 0:07:15Well, I am not saying everything.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18Think about any arrangement which involves a loan and a debt -
0:07:18 > 0:07:20there is a choice to be made on both sides.
0:07:20 > 0:07:26You only loan the money if you are sure and have promises...
0:07:26 > 0:07:27Ah-ha.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30About how that money is going to be used.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33So why did they land this money to a bankrupt state?
0:07:33 > 0:07:352010 where the largest loan in absolute terms
0:07:35 > 0:07:37in human history given to the most bankrupt European state.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40You know, it takes an irresponsible lender and an irresponsible borrower
0:07:40 > 0:07:46to forge this kind of pact.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49(CROSSTALK)
0:07:49 > 0:07:51Indeed but the power and the cards lie...
0:07:51 > 0:07:52But to answer your question...
0:07:52 > 0:07:54Going forward the real power lies with the lender
0:07:54 > 0:07:57not with the borrower because the borrower is going to go bust...
0:07:57 > 0:07:58Not exactly.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00If you owe 320 billion euros, you have some power.
0:08:00 > 0:08:08Yeah?
0:08:08 > 0:08:11If you owe ?3,000 to the bank then you have no power.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13But if you owe 300 billion, and you are part of
0:08:13 > 0:08:16an interconnected financial system, you are not completely devoid
0:08:16 > 0:08:18of power but that is not the issue.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20Let's set aside for the moment the question of bargaining power.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23When I went to Europe group and to meet Dr Schauble...
0:08:23 > 0:08:25I want to talk a lot about that...
0:08:25 > 0:08:27I am referring to what you just said.
0:08:27 > 0:08:30What I took with me, in my suitcase, was a willingness to sit
0:08:30 > 0:08:34down with them, not to dictate to them what should happen in Greece
0:08:34 > 0:08:37but sit down with them and work out a manageable fiscal
0:08:38 > 0:08:43and reform consolidation programme.
0:08:43 > 0:08:44The trouble was, they were not interested.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47This is the very first time in history that creditors did not
0:08:47 > 0:08:50want their money back.
0:08:50 > 0:08:51Hang on a minute.
0:08:51 > 0:08:53You talk about going to the euro group,
0:08:53 > 0:08:56and sitting there with Schauble and all the others - you took a style
0:08:56 > 0:09:02with you, a style that was designed to antagonise, send a message...
0:09:02 > 0:09:03What, I do not wear a tie?
0:09:03 > 0:09:06Of course, you wore your leather jacket, we all know that...
0:09:06 > 0:09:08No, I did not wear my leather jacket (CROSSTALK).
0:09:08 > 0:09:10I can assure you.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13It was not about what you wore, whether you had a tie on,
0:09:13 > 0:09:17whether you came on your motorbike - it wasn't about any of that -
0:09:17 > 0:09:18it was about the inflammatory language, accusing
0:09:18 > 0:09:19them of fiscal waterboarding...
0:09:19 > 0:09:20There was no inflammatory language.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22You called them terrorists!
0:09:22 > 0:09:23No, no, no. Get your chronology right.
0:09:23 > 0:09:25I used...
0:09:25 > 0:09:26Firstly I never caught anyone a terrorist.
0:09:26 > 0:09:31What I said was, in the first week of July, after our banks were closed
0:09:31 > 0:09:40down by our central bank, why?
0:09:40 > 0:09:42Was there a problem with the banks?
0:09:42 > 0:09:42No.
0:09:42 > 0:09:46The central bank of Europe - the ECB - had proclaimed our banks to be
0:09:46 > 0:09:48solvent and why did they close them?
0:09:48 > 0:09:50In order to force us, the elected government,
0:09:50 > 0:09:56to accept massive pension cuts, massive austerity cuts.
0:09:56 > 0:09:57Yeah?
0:09:57 > 0:09:59Now, what is the spread of fear in order
0:09:59 > 0:10:00to attain political objectives?
0:10:00 > 0:10:08It is terrorism.
0:10:08 > 0:10:09And so, by that stage...
0:10:09 > 0:10:11Fiscal waterboarding as well, that is torture.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14These are people you say, "I approach with an open mind, trying
0:10:14 > 0:10:17collectively to find a way out of this crisis that would help the
0:10:17 > 0:10:23Greek economy and the Greek people."
0:10:23 > 0:10:26You say that and then I refer back to every
0:10:26 > 0:10:27attitude you took into the room.
0:10:27 > 0:10:33You made a point of being the antipolitics politician but the
0:10:33 > 0:10:35way you did it just does not work.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37Stephen, Stephen, when a new government is elected to
0:10:37 > 0:10:39confront creditors and to say to them that in your
0:10:39 > 0:10:43interest, too, and in the interest of our long-suffering nation
0:10:43 > 0:10:46in a great depression, we have to sit down and find common ground.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49At that moment, you have to set aside all this brimstone
0:10:49 > 0:10:57and noise and get down to work.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59The fact that for five years, all previous governments were being
0:10:59 > 0:11:04fiscally waterboarded is indisputable.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06Think of what has been happening since today.
0:11:06 > 0:11:10It is happening as we speak.
0:11:10 > 0:11:14You can continue to use that language if you like but I then
0:11:14 > 0:11:17reflect upon Christine Lagarde, at the height of the crisis, in June,
0:11:17 > 0:11:202015, coming out of a meeting with you and saying, with just total
0:11:20 > 0:11:27frustration, "it would be nice if we had some adults in the room."
0:11:27 > 0:11:30Stephen, she had not come out of a meeting with me when she said that.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32Who do you think she was talking about?
0:11:33 > 0:11:34Well, I'm not going to divulge this.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37It is not for me, you have to ask her.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39But, look, when I first met Christine Lagarde -
0:11:39 > 0:11:42since you're refering to Christine - we had conversation one-hour long
0:11:42 > 0:11:46conversation and we actually agreed on all the basic failures
0:11:46 > 0:11:50of the previous programme.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52Indeed, with Paul Thompson, who is the European chief
0:11:52 > 0:11:55of the International Monetary Fund, a very close associate of Christine
0:11:55 > 0:11:57Lagarde, we had agreed that the previous programmes had failed
0:11:57 > 0:12:00because there was no serious debt restructuring involved,
0:12:00 > 0:12:02that the way of managing previous Greek governments by the Troika was
0:12:02 > 0:12:13effectively the strategy of fiscal waterboarding, which is what?
0:12:13 > 0:12:16You bring the subject to the point of no return
0:12:16 > 0:12:20and then you let the subject have a gulp of air - or liquidity, in the
0:12:20 > 0:12:25case of Greece - and then you repeat and you repeat and you repeat.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29This has been the pattern since May, 2010, and the result is the loss of
0:12:29 > 0:12:33one third of income and an ability to repay our debts to our creditors.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35The point is, and we come back to the opening
0:12:35 > 0:12:47of this conversation about senses pf failure - the point is that you,
0:12:47 > 0:12:51in the end, were thrown overboard by your former colleague, and the
0:12:51 > 0:12:52guy who hired you, Alexis Tsipras.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54No, this is not what happened...
0:12:54 > 0:12:55This is not what happened.
0:12:55 > 0:12:57It is what happened. No, it's not.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00Essentially, he said I'm going to let you go because the euro group
0:13:00 > 0:13:01cannot work with you anymore.
0:13:01 > 0:13:02That's not what happened.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04Do you want me to tell you what happened?
0:13:05 > 0:13:06You tell me what happened.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09From the end of April onwards, Alexis Tsipras and I started
0:13:09 > 0:13:11diverging in our views of what the right strategy should be.
0:13:11 > 0:13:15He was making compromises which, as far as I was concerned, were lethal,
0:13:15 > 0:13:16in the sense that they were...
0:13:16 > 0:13:18he was accepting for instance fiscal targets impossible to achieve.
0:13:18 > 0:13:25My view was, the moment you start doing that, you lose credibility and
0:13:25 > 0:13:28then at some point you're going to have to surrender and capitulate.
0:13:28 > 0:13:34That happened.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37Let me tell you...
0:13:37 > 0:13:39When that happened, when he said to me on
0:13:39 > 0:13:42the referendum, when we called upon the Greek people to back us, not to
0:13:42 > 0:13:46capitulate, that night we met and he said it is time to surrender and
0:13:46 > 0:13:50at that point I said, not for me.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53We parted amicably, having disagreed on whether the right course
0:13:53 > 0:13:56of action at that moment was to continue the confrontation with
0:13:56 > 0:13:58the Troika of creditors that were imposing upon us strings and
0:13:58 > 0:14:05measures that made it absolutely impossible for Greece, firstly,
0:14:05 > 0:14:10to recover and, secondly, to repay its debts, or to capitulate.
0:14:10 > 0:14:14When he decided as a Prime Minister's want is, to capitulate,
0:14:14 > 0:14:15it was time for me to resign.
0:14:15 > 0:14:24I was not thrown overboard.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28I was made aware of the absence and it was supposed to be
0:14:28 > 0:14:28potentially helpful.
0:14:28 > 0:14:34So the Tsipras did not want you and he knew that, and...
0:14:34 > 0:14:44It is not one voice.
0:14:44 > 0:14:52We can talk about individuals.
0:14:52 > 0:14:57You became toxic.
0:14:57 > 0:15:04I did not become toxic and I was a major inconvenience.
0:15:04 > 0:15:14Because I was the first Finance Minister.
0:15:14 > 0:15:18And this gets personal.
0:15:18 > 0:15:19Before you get there...
0:15:19 > 0:15:21Let me tell you why I was so despised.
0:15:21 > 0:15:23Either we capitulate and accept the programme
0:15:23 > 0:15:25of the previous governments that had failed so spectacularly or
0:15:25 > 0:15:27the banks would be closed.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29I made it abundantly clear that I shall never submit to such
0:15:29 > 0:15:30blackmail.
0:15:30 > 0:15:30Tsipras understood that.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33It was very important to him that I should be sidelined.
0:15:33 > 0:15:48As the Finance Minister of the Bank of State I would not sign
0:15:48 > 0:15:53on another loan knowing that we would not be able to repay it.
0:15:53 > 0:15:59This is what a sensible, rational, moderate Finance Minister should do.
0:15:59 > 0:16:10If you are running a business, the BBC or a company, you should
0:16:10 > 0:16:18never accept a loan if your existing loans and not sustainable.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20You were a radical.
0:16:20 > 0:16:27When radicalism hits it, reality trumps radicalism.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30That was the message that came out in the summer of 2015 and it is
0:16:30 > 0:16:34the message that comes out today in many different parts of Europe.
0:16:34 > 0:16:36There are powerful voices like yours that propounded a very radical
0:16:36 > 0:16:37leftist view of European economics.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40That is not the basis of it.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43Explain to me why?
0:16:43 > 0:16:47I ask you all to go to my website or any Google search engine and look
0:16:47 > 0:16:56at my proposals as Minister of Finance on the 11th of May 2015.
0:16:56 > 0:17:03What were our proposals to the Troika of lenders?
0:17:03 > 0:17:06They were the most moderate proposals we have.
0:17:06 > 0:17:08You are not in power any more.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10Greece is desperately trying to maintain the third bailout deal.
0:17:10 > 0:17:22You, in all respect...
0:17:22 > 0:17:25Ran a country that did not fail.
0:17:25 > 0:17:32We needed to have a radical minister.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35This is the depth of the European crisis.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38You need to have a radical left wing minister to propose common sense.
0:17:38 > 0:17:44Commonsense is in very short supply in Europe.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47Is Greece better off as a result of my defeat and my removal?
0:17:47 > 0:17:48No.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51We are deeper into the mire than we were a year ago.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54If my proposals had been accepted instead of the Troika,
0:17:54 > 0:17:55would we be better off?
0:17:55 > 0:17:59Definitely.
0:17:59 > 0:18:04It is indisputable.
0:18:04 > 0:18:08Look at the proposals and ask top-notch economists
0:18:08 > 0:18:11around the world, which are better or more sensible?
0:18:11 > 0:18:17Which would have given the Greek Nationals a chance to recover?
0:18:17 > 0:18:23After my removal, why did it happen?
0:18:23 > 0:18:26I don't want to get stuck on the past because there are
0:18:26 > 0:18:31important things to talk about.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34You are leaving an impression that a radical minister left
0:18:34 > 0:18:35and moderation prevailed.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38And moderate minister, released a radical minister
0:18:38 > 0:18:41proposing moderate policies was removed, and idiocy prevailed.
0:18:41 > 0:18:48Let me give you one example because your audience has to hear this.
0:18:48 > 0:18:55One of the things I would not sign into
0:18:55 > 0:18:58law was increasing the corporate tax in a country that was broken
0:18:58 > 0:19:01and the imposition of prepaying next year's tax a year in advance for
0:19:01 > 0:19:10small businesses that were broken.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12You are not reconciled to your defeat, are you?
0:19:12 > 0:19:16Well...
0:19:16 > 0:19:21You are not reconciled and you now run a movement that you
0:19:21 > 0:19:32say has the capacity to completely reshape Europe in a democratic way.
0:19:32 > 0:19:39Your argument is that the European Union
0:19:39 > 0:19:41as they are currently constituted is currently undemocratic
0:19:41 > 0:19:44and it is killing Europe.
0:19:44 > 0:19:50I just wonder how you believe you're going to persuade the European
0:19:50 > 0:19:51public as a whole of this argument?
0:19:51 > 0:19:53Firstly, the movement is not me.
0:19:53 > 0:19:58But since you are focusing on my past, and my record, it is
0:19:58 > 0:19:59important that we set it straight.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02In my six months in the finance ministry I put
0:20:02 > 0:20:06forward certain proposal.
0:20:06 > 0:20:08I consider them to be the only chance, even today,
0:20:08 > 0:20:10of Greece's recovery and of healing within the eurozone.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13I may be wrong or I may be right.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16When did that happen exactly?
0:20:16 > 0:20:17Well...
0:20:17 > 0:20:26You just slipped in a major way.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29When I was the most severe supporter of this
0:20:29 > 0:20:31process, with 62% of the votes.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34And the next day the Prime Minister said we're going to back
0:20:34 > 0:20:34the deal anyway.
0:20:34 > 0:20:41Do not say it was the Greek people who rejected the proposals.
0:20:41 > 0:20:48They are not even in first place any more.
0:20:48 > 0:20:55In that case, I need to get your ideas on the future of Europe
0:20:55 > 0:20:59because such a big debate, not least in Europe, and there is an argument
0:20:59 > 0:21:06about whether Europe can be changed from within or actually Europe is go
0:21:06 > 0:21:08to have to collapse before anything else can be rebuilt
0:21:08 > 0:21:11and something better.
0:21:11 > 0:21:15What is your view?
0:21:15 > 0:21:19There is no doubt that what we have created is a monster.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23We have created a European Union which is deeply contemptuous
0:21:23 > 0:21:30of the democratic process.
0:21:30 > 0:21:34This is the reason why I had to resign and not to pursue what I
0:21:34 > 0:21:36consider to be modern policy.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39But you wanted to stay in the eurozone and you now advise Britain
0:21:39 > 0:21:40to stay in the European Union.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42But you call it a monster.
0:21:42 > 0:21:47It seems entirely contrary.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50Well I got in a country with a monstrous regime and we either
0:21:50 > 0:21:54had to get out of it or to abandon it or to see it be dismembered.
0:21:54 > 0:22:05I wanted to be democratised after our dictatorship in the 1960s.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07The same thing applies to the European Union.
0:22:07 > 0:22:11If we had not created the European Union and the eurozone,
0:22:11 > 0:22:13we should not have had consent to the creation.
0:22:13 > 0:22:18Is that OK?
0:22:18 > 0:22:21As they currently exist...
0:22:21 > 0:22:29But now that they exist, dismembering it, fragmenting it,
0:22:29 > 0:22:34is going to take us where we want to be had we not created at.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36It is going to throw us into a terrible abyss.
0:22:36 > 0:22:37What is going to happen?
0:22:37 > 0:22:41My prediction, and tell me if you agree with me or not, is that
0:22:41 > 0:22:44there is going to be a huge fault line with Germany, Austria, the
0:22:44 > 0:22:47Netherlands, Poland all forming a zone which will immediately go to a
0:22:47 > 0:22:50big recession as its currency appreciates through the roof.
0:22:50 > 0:23:08The rest of Europe, Latin Europe with Greece,
0:23:08 > 0:23:12maybe Ireland, is going to go in a stagflation situation because their
0:23:12 > 0:23:14currencies are going to depreciate.
0:23:14 > 0:23:19This will create a vortex, and Britain as well
0:23:19 > 0:23:22as other nations that are inappropriate for all of this vortex
0:23:22 > 0:23:29are going to fall into it.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33There is no way that we as Europeans are going to escape if this monster
0:23:33 > 0:23:36of the European Union disintegrates under the weight of its hubris
0:23:36 > 0:23:43and discontent for democracy.
0:23:43 > 0:23:54It is our monster and we better civilise it.
0:23:54 > 0:23:59We have to end there.
0:23:59 > 0:24:01Thank you for being on HARDtalk.
0:24:01 > 0:24:21It was a great pleasure.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31Hello there.
0:24:31 > 0:24:33It is set to be a chilly start to the weekend.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36We've got a touch of frost around first thing
0:24:36 > 0:24:37and a few misty patches too.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39But things are gradually going to be
0:24:39 > 0:24:41warming up over the next couple of days.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43So temperatures on the rise.