:00:00. > :00:20.I'm Stephen Sackur, welcome to HARDtalk. The United States is
:00:21. > :00:24.eating up its military presence in Europe call Russian aggression.
:00:25. > :00:30.Proof if any were needed that Vladimir Putin's muscular protection
:00:31. > :00:36.of Russian power, from Ukraine to Syria, has sown seeds of alarm
:00:37. > :00:41.across Europe and America. My guest today is Russia's ambassador to the
:00:42. > :00:44.EU, at Vladimir Chizhov. Mr Putin says Russia is regaining respect as
:00:45. > :00:47.a global superpower, but can the Kremlin sustain a long-term
:00:48. > :01:24.confrontation with the West? Ambassador Vladimir Chizhov, welcome
:01:25. > :01:30.to HARDtalk. Thank you. You began your diplomatic career back in the
:01:31. > :01:39.error of the soviet union. Right now it must feel just like old times,
:01:40. > :01:44.the Cold War is back? -- era. Actually not, the Cold War is not
:01:45. > :01:49.back. That of course depends on the definition you put onto that
:01:50. > :01:56.terminology. In my view, the Cold War was actually a confrontation
:01:57. > :02:04.between two ideologists, primarily. There is no such confrontation
:02:05. > :02:10.today. The fact that the West is beefing up its own imagination about
:02:11. > :02:14.Russia's intention is a totally different thing. Russia does not
:02:15. > :02:21.intend to pursue confrontation with the West. You make the point that
:02:22. > :02:26.maybe ideology is absent in the way it was present during the Cold War.
:02:27. > :02:31.You guys are not committed communist any more. The fact is, in terms of
:02:32. > :02:36.the military stand-off, the hostility, the suspicion, the talk
:02:37. > :02:42.of possible confrontation, we are back into that sort of era. And with
:02:43. > :02:46.the US putting a new brigade of troops onto the eastern flank of
:02:47. > :02:55.Nato, with your officials responding by saying that you will give, quote
:02:56. > :03:01.unquote, an asymmetric response, it sounds dangerous and it sounds like
:03:02. > :03:08.confrontation. Well, I think these efforts that you refer to buy the
:03:09. > :03:14.West, the United States and some of their European allies, including the
:03:15. > :03:20.UK, they are misplaced. I think you are looking in the wrong direction,
:03:21. > :03:30.trying to find an enemy. If there is an enemy today, if -- is our common
:03:31. > :03:36.enemy of international terrorism. It reared its ugly head a few days ago
:03:37. > :03:42.here in Brussels. With all respect, that may be a common enemy, but
:03:43. > :03:48.according to the United States you represent some sort of enemy, too. I
:03:49. > :03:53.quote, this brigade detachment that is being sent to supplement US
:03:54. > :03:59.forces in Europe, it is a direct response to, quote unquote, Russian
:04:00. > :04:05.aggression. We are of course talking about the Ukraine. Fortunately
:04:06. > :04:11.enough, the United States is not putting a brigade into the Ukraine
:04:12. > :04:17.as yet. That would have been very confrontational. But I think there
:04:18. > :04:24.is no evidence that Russia has made any aggressive moves in Ukraine or
:04:25. > :04:30.against Ukraine. I don't know what you call the invasion of Crimea and
:04:31. > :04:42.the subsequent annexation of Crimea, if not in aggression against the
:04:43. > :04:46.government in Kiev? There was no annexation of Crimea, Russian troops
:04:47. > :04:51.had been in Crimea for the last 250 years including on the basis of a
:04:52. > :04:59.bilateral Russian Ukrainian treaty signed in 1997. So the Russian legal
:05:00. > :05:05.base and contingents across Ukraine were there on a perfectly legal
:05:06. > :05:12.basis. I think you are distorting the course of events, claiming there
:05:13. > :05:16.was some sort of an invasion. I don't want to rehearse all the
:05:17. > :05:21.arguments about Russia's role, not just in annex in Crimea against the
:05:22. > :05:27.wishes of the Ukrainian government, but also in fanning the flames of an
:05:28. > :05:31.armed rebellion in Eastern Ukraine, and all of the allegations about
:05:32. > :05:35.Russia's involvement in that. Let us focus on the implications of the
:05:36. > :05:42.perception in Europe that Vladimir Putin is engaging in a new round of
:05:43. > :05:49.aggression. You know, as ambassador in the EU, that there is now, from
:05:50. > :05:52.Scandinavia, through the Baltic states, Scandinavia and Poland and a
:05:53. > :06:00.host of other countries, inside the EU and inside Nato, a real fear of
:06:01. > :06:05.Vladimir Putin and his intentions. If there is any sign of the, which I
:06:06. > :06:14.believe you are exaggerating, but even if there is, I think that is
:06:15. > :06:19.really disappointing. I would point to be responsibility of the media,
:06:20. > :06:27.including your own channel. I don't think that producing pseudo-
:06:28. > :06:34.documentaries like the our world that BBC showed a few weeks ago is
:06:35. > :06:41.in any way helpful to lay in those fears -- alleviating. A lot of
:06:42. > :06:46.people about the propaganda machine works in Moscow and and wonder about
:06:47. > :06:51.President Putin's determination to spoonfeed the Russian people a view
:06:52. > :06:56.of what is happening, both in Ukraine and in Syria and the wider
:06:57. > :07:05.world, which too many people simply distorts reality. In the view of
:07:06. > :07:08.many other people, that is what the Western propaganda machine is doing,
:07:09. > :07:18.distorting reality. Like claiming that Russia is the aggressor. Of
:07:19. > :07:22.course, it leads to and is additionally fuelled by statements
:07:23. > :07:33.coming from officials, both civilian and military, like one general who
:07:34. > :07:37.said that Nato needs to return to U-2 reconnaissance flights over
:07:38. > :07:41.Russian territory. I think that is a very dangerous development. In a
:07:42. > :07:45.sense, that is what I want to get out. There is no point at sitting
:07:46. > :07:49.here trading allegations about each other's media. What is really
:07:50. > :07:54.important is what will happen on the ground. You sit in Brussels
:07:55. > :08:00.representing Vladimir Putin and the Russian government. You must be
:08:01. > :08:03.aware that because of the perceptions of Vladimir Putin and
:08:04. > :08:09.Russia right now, the United States is more intent than ever in putting
:08:10. > :08:16.this missile defence system across the eastern side of Nato. They have
:08:17. > :08:19.ramped up troop numbers, there is now this new reassurance initiative
:08:20. > :08:25.which means that there will be a new rapid deployment force on Nato's
:08:26. > :08:29.eastern flank. I began talking about the Cold War, you denied it. But now
:08:30. > :08:37.we seem to be agreeing that these actions suggest there is a long-term
:08:38. > :08:45.confrontation at play? Yes, I will not claim that there is no, I would
:08:46. > :08:51.say animosity, or no confrontational mood. Yes, there is. But again, I
:08:52. > :08:58.think it is misplaced. I think that is not the direction we all should
:08:59. > :09:07.be looking towards. So, I would suggest that we take a deep breath
:09:08. > :09:14.and have a closer look at our mutual interest. And then we will see what
:09:15. > :09:19.to do next. Political dialogue, in that sense, it is helpful. And you
:09:20. > :09:24.have been referring to the United States a number of times, actually,
:09:25. > :09:36.the dialogue that is currently maintained at the level of President
:09:37. > :09:40.Putin and Obama, and between John Kerry and a quickie of state, who
:09:41. > :09:45.talk on the phone on a weekly basis... You are a diplomat, you
:09:46. > :09:50.talk about dialogue and mutual interests. I understand that, but in
:09:51. > :09:52.the end, it has to get specific. Let's talk about the substance
:09:53. > :09:57.behind the dialogue, let's talk about Ukraine. Russia has a choice
:09:58. > :10:03.right now. You can play a role in the escalating the Russian crisis by
:10:04. > :10:10.telling the separatists in Eastern Ukraine that they must accept a full
:10:11. > :10:14.pullback of forces, they must accept regional elections that are
:10:15. > :10:18.supervised under the Ukrainian government and they have to accept
:10:19. > :10:22.that Ukrainian forces go back and police the border with Russia. If
:10:23. > :10:28.your government is prepared to deal in that sort of substance, then of
:10:29. > :10:39.course there can be a new dialogue. To put it squarely, the Minsk
:10:40. > :10:45.agreement on Ukraine is squarely in Kiev's Court. None of the
:10:46. > :10:50.obligations that Kiev and President Poroshenko agreed to have been the
:10:51. > :11:00.field. Neither is there a law on special status of the dog plus
:11:01. > :11:12.region, nor is there a law on amnesty or local elections. So, yes,
:11:13. > :11:21.the situation is tense. Well... Let me finish. According to reports from
:11:22. > :11:28.the OAC special monitoring machine, the number of special weapons which
:11:29. > :11:34.are missing from the depots on the Ukrainian side of the Ukrainian army
:11:35. > :11:42.is ten or 15 times greater than those of the dump last forces. The
:11:43. > :11:50.OSCE pointed out that Russia still does not co-operate to give the OSCE
:11:51. > :11:53.understanding what is happening in terms of resupply and cross-border
:11:54. > :12:01.shipments. He also said that the drones used by the OSCE to try to
:12:02. > :12:05.monitor events in Ukraine have been consistently blocked and jammed. He
:12:06. > :12:09.left me in no doubt that he believes that is the responsibility of
:12:10. > :12:16.Russia. That might be his point of view. You are just quoting him very
:12:17. > :12:31.respectfully, so presumably you care about his point of view. What the
:12:32. > :12:36.OSCE had asked for in terms of maintaining the Russian Ukrainian
:12:37. > :12:45.border, that has been implemented. -- Donbass. No, no... Not to their
:12:46. > :12:57.satisfaction, Mr Ambassador. It was in full accordance with all the
:12:58. > :13:02.measures agreed with by the OAC. We need to see the baseline. The
:13:03. > :13:06.baseline is that there are two parties to the Minsk agreement. One
:13:07. > :13:15.is the Ukrainian government, the other is the authorities of the
:13:16. > :13:21.Donbass republics. You say you are not a party to the conflict, but
:13:22. > :13:24.both the US and the EU have identified you as a key player in
:13:25. > :13:28.the conflict, with key responsibilities. That is precisely
:13:29. > :13:34.why they have imposed sanctions on you would have now been renewed and
:13:35. > :13:39.at least the summer of 2016. So, you are paying a price of your decisions
:13:40. > :13:44.in the Ukraine, and it is a price that your economy can barely afford
:13:45. > :13:46.to pay. Again, you are exaggerating. The Russian economy can survive
:13:47. > :13:55.those unilateral restrictive measures which you referred to as
:13:56. > :14:00.sanctions. What do you call them? I already said so. Unilateral
:14:01. > :14:05.restrictive measures. Sanctions, according to international law, can
:14:06. > :14:11.only be imposed by the UN Security Council. There is no other authority
:14:12. > :14:16.to do that. They are costing your economy, your economy is in pretty
:14:17. > :14:21.dire straits anyway because of the falling oil and gas prices,
:14:22. > :14:24.according to the IMF they cost 1.5% of GDP every year. Your country is
:14:25. > :14:30.already in recession, this magnifies it. Your own president told a
:14:31. > :14:33.magazine in Germany that the financial restrictions in Russia
:14:34. > :14:40.were having a very serious effect. Yes, I agree. But it is not
:14:41. > :14:44.because... The negative effect on the economy, as you rightly say
:14:45. > :14:54.yourself, it is primarily because of the fall in the world oil prices.
:14:55. > :14:59.Primarily. These so-called sanctions are a contributing factor, there is
:15:00. > :15:07.no doubt about that. But not to the extent that would bring the Russian
:15:08. > :15:08.economy into the state of shutters as some politicians have been
:15:09. > :15:19.referring. You say that from a comfortable
:15:20. > :15:27.posting but the Russian people may see it differently. Real wages and
:15:28. > :15:32.although more than 6%. In that sort of climate, seeing the sanctions
:15:33. > :15:36.indefinitely continue because your government refuses to play ball with
:15:37. > :15:45.the wishes of the international community, that is a political risk
:15:46. > :15:48.Mr Putin has to accept? So far the popularity of President Putin and
:15:49. > :15:53.his government have been soaring rocket high. We will have
:15:54. > :15:59.Parliamentary elections in September. That is close enough and
:16:00. > :16:06.then you will see what the Russian electorate really thinks. Let's talk
:16:07. > :16:14.about Syria as well. When we talk about the way Mr Putin is
:16:15. > :16:17.determined, in his view, to ensure Russian interests projected with
:16:18. > :16:22.muscular strength of the world stage, we have to talk about Syria
:16:23. > :16:26.as well as Ukraine. You're bombing campaign lasted for six months,
:16:27. > :16:33.Independent human rights group reckon 2000 civilians were killed.
:16:34. > :16:38.Is it really over or not? The bulk of it is over. The bulk of the
:16:39. > :16:44.Russian air force contingent has been pulled out. Some forces have
:16:45. > :16:53.remained and they actually assisted the Syrian army in liberating
:16:54. > :17:02.Elmira, the well-known heritage site. -- Palmyra. Unfortunately it
:17:03. > :17:09.has not been welcomed by some Western countries, including the UK.
:17:10. > :17:18.I think what has been said about it by the UK Foreign Secretary is not
:17:19. > :17:26.worth being repeated. Let me focus on something slightly different sad
:17:27. > :17:32.by your ally, President Assad. He said... Just a few weeks ago... His
:17:33. > :17:36.intention was to take back the whole country without hesitation. He said
:17:37. > :17:46.it would take a long time and involve a heavy price. Is his
:17:47. > :17:52.intention Russia's desire also? The Syrian government position... And I
:17:53. > :17:58.do not want to sound like an advocate for President Assad. My
:17:59. > :18:05.country... You refer to him as a Russian ally, we have been doing
:18:06. > :18:12.what we were doing in Syria at his request, indeed, but we are not in a
:18:13. > :18:19.military alliance. In any case,... Lets keep this simple. Yes. Do you
:18:20. > :18:23.believe that President Assad, with his military, can take back every
:18:24. > :18:30.inch of territorial and is that what Russia wants? Certainly that is not
:18:31. > :18:36.what Russia wants. Russia's goals and be made open and transparent -
:18:37. > :18:39.the Sio political solution in Syria and that is something that President
:18:40. > :18:46.Assad has publicly committed himself to. The talks that are going on in
:18:47. > :18:53.Geneva, the cause of the progressive nation of certain opposition forces
:18:54. > :18:58.and certain members of... One member of the International Syria and
:18:59. > :19:07.support group -- procrastination. They have created a framework for
:19:08. > :19:14.seeking political solution which would meet the danger of all Syrian
:19:15. > :19:19.people, including the Kurds kill unfortunately are not there at the
:19:20. > :19:21.negotiating table. Do you want to see a new constitution and a
:19:22. > :19:27.transitional political arrangement which ruled ultimately see in the
:19:28. > :19:34.medium to long-term, the end of President Assad? Yes. A new
:19:35. > :19:39.constitution, definitely. A political process, yes. What the
:19:40. > :19:46.outcome of the political process will be is not for you or me to
:19:47. > :19:52.decide, it is up to the Syrian people. They will have elections and
:19:53. > :19:56.those elections will bring the results which will reflect the will
:19:57. > :20:00.of the Syrian people. The UK about Russia's international standing is
:20:01. > :20:07.when it comes Russia's recognition and adherence to international norms
:20:08. > :20:11.when it comes to the laws of war is an humanitarianism. He care how
:20:12. > :20:18.Russia is perceived in the world? Of course. -- do you care. Actually
:20:19. > :20:24.that is part of my job and I will add to that, I care much more than
:20:25. > :20:31.some Western governments, including your care about their image of
:20:32. > :20:38.recognising Kosovo. The secretary whose words you said were not worth
:20:39. > :20:43.repeating, said Russia deliberately targeted schools, hospitals and
:20:44. > :20:48.emergency rescue workers. His words were backed by the testimony of
:20:49. > :20:55.theory and is on the ground and a number of Independent human rights
:20:56. > :21:02.groups. -- Syrians. When such allegations are made, whoever makes
:21:03. > :21:08.them, they should be substantiated by evidence. That has not been the
:21:09. > :21:15.case regarding our actions in Syria so these are just words. Well, they
:21:16. > :21:20.are not just words because I have got here, in the papers in front of
:21:21. > :21:24.me, testimony from doctors, towns, describing how Russian bombers
:21:25. > :21:35.attacked hospitals, electricity, water supplies, not once but coming
:21:36. > :21:43.back and attacking rescuers. Well, that... If there is such evidence,
:21:44. > :21:47.of course, it should be processed in due course accordingly. There have
:21:48. > :21:55.been other cases... Does it worry you personally when you hear things
:21:56. > :22:00.like that? Of course, it worries me. These allegations are need to be
:22:01. > :22:05.checked and double checked. If they are true, Russia should be
:22:06. > :22:13.punished, should have a? Well... Tell me, should the US be published
:22:14. > :22:22.full punished for blowing up a Doctors without Borders hospital?
:22:23. > :22:31.But should Russia be punished if these allegations are true? If these
:22:32. > :22:35.allegations, hypothetically, are true, they should be investigated.
:22:36. > :22:40.It is not up to me or you to draw conclusions. There is a proper
:22:41. > :22:44.Independent investigation. You obviously do not want to answer that
:22:45. > :22:49.question, let me ask you one more. In 2000, President Putin said I
:22:50. > :22:56.cannot imagine my country isolated Rocky Europe. We are part of
:22:57. > :23:05.European culture. What on earth happened to Putin's mindset now? --
:23:06. > :23:10.isolated from Europe. Am sure that is his mindset today. I haven't
:23:11. > :23:17.picked his brain of course what Russia has traditionally been part
:23:18. > :23:21.and parcel of what we all call European civilisation. Actually, one
:23:22. > :23:27.of the pillars of European civilisation. ... You do not feel in
:23:28. > :23:36.any way isolated from Europe and European values today? Certainly
:23:37. > :23:42.not. I will say... You know, from the point of view of the geo-
:23:43. > :23:49.strategy, Russia cannot be isolated from any direction but, in terms of
:23:50. > :23:57.values, in terms of civilisational ties, of course, Russia remains part
:23:58. > :24:01.of the European civilisation. Perhaps it is not the way some
:24:02. > :24:07.people in the West would like to see Russia but that is their problem.
:24:08. > :24:10.Ambassador, Vladimir Chizhov, a thank you very much indeed for being
:24:11. > :24:26.on HARDtalk. Thank you.