:00:00. > :00:00.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:07. > :00:24.Hideki -- Hideki. On a same day that Bosnian detainees held Radovan
:00:25. > :00:28.Karadzic, they held a journalist. It was her decision to reveal
:00:29. > :00:34.confidential court decisions which led to her brief spell in customers.
:00:35. > :00:38.She says the world had a right to know that Serbia was allowed to keep
:00:39. > :00:41.secret documents which could have helped victims of war crimes to win
:00:42. > :00:50.compensation stop critics say her actions may be harder for the
:00:51. > :00:55.victims to get compensation in the future. Did Florence Hartmann put
:00:56. > :01:21.journalistic ambition before just as? -- justice?
:01:22. > :01:30.Florence Hartmann, welcome. Thursday the 24th of March, the International
:01:31. > :01:38.criminal Tribunal in The Hague for Radovan Karadzic, the former
:01:39. > :01:43.president of Bosnia. It is judgement day. Why were you there? It was an
:01:44. > :01:52.historical day for me because as a journalist, I have worked through
:01:53. > :01:55.1990, his speeches and then the way he implemented his political goals
:01:56. > :02:08.through mass violence, mass crimes, and I was even expelled for covering
:02:09. > :02:13.those crimes. The president in 1993, I was then thrown out because I was
:02:14. > :02:20.speaking the truth. But I was just expelled, I was not put in jail.
:02:21. > :02:24.Then I worked with the chief prosecutor of two 2006, that was
:02:25. > :02:36.before Radovan Karadzic was arrested. Was He on the run for 13
:02:37. > :02:41.years, I have been working on this for many years. The police have no
:02:42. > :02:43.ability to apprehend fugitives or whatever.
:02:44. > :02:58.I left before he was arrested, two years before. That was the subject
:02:59. > :03:07.of international justice, to bring them to accountability. Now we have
:03:08. > :03:09.the results of a long trial, and what was the verdict. Your lawyer
:03:10. > :03:12.said you are shocked by the verdict, where you close your yes, I
:03:13. > :03:20.was. -- shocked by your arrest. I had an
:03:21. > :03:25.international arrest warrant. So far, when it was issued, it was
:03:26. > :03:32.given only to France and the Netherlands, which there is
:03:33. > :03:38.absolutely no reason to have that. I was afraid to travel for the first
:03:39. > :03:43.15 days. Then when I understood that, I could go to a country where
:03:44. > :04:05.I could check. I was on the list of people to be arrested on the border.
:04:06. > :04:08.I am going in various countries, but specifically in the Balkans I
:04:09. > :04:13.Sure, but you were at the Hague, you were at the tribunal, so you
:04:14. > :04:16.must have known that they were likely to prosecute that warrant
:04:17. > :04:21.I know you dispute whether the money was there
:04:22. > :04:25.but they had not taken the money and they converted it from a fine to a
:04:26. > :04:31.If the Dutch never arrested you, if the tribunal does not send the
:04:32. > :04:34.arrest warrant to countries where I always go and they know I am there.
:04:35. > :04:37.They say you were not on Dutch soil but the territory
:04:38. > :04:46.Explain why, you can see in the video, and many TVs were there, why
:04:47. > :04:51.If there is UN territory, and you have no Dutch police, either it is
:04:52. > :04:53.the sovereignty of the Netherlands, and you have Dutch police.
:04:54. > :04:56.The Dutch say they were there to ensure crowd safety.
:04:57. > :04:59.There would not have been enough security to do with it.
:05:00. > :05:07.What is not in dispute is that this was the day
:05:08. > :05:10.the victims of Karadzic's polities - and indeed the families of the dead
:05:11. > :05:20.Was it a mistake for you to distract attention from them?
:05:21. > :05:24.They invited me to come, as well as TV from the former Yugoslavia,
:05:25. > :05:29.Is it a good enough reason to overcome
:05:30. > :05:32.concerns not only about whether you would get arrested but also
:05:33. > :05:53.You could have done that from the studio and still watch the judgement
:05:54. > :05:57.No, I wasn't watching the judgement, I came ahead of the judgement.
:05:58. > :06:02.And that was to support the victims, because they are expecting justice.
:06:03. > :06:08.They wanted me to analyse the verdict, because it is not about
:06:09. > :06:11.40 years, it is on what, on which charge he has been convicted or not,
:06:12. > :06:14.shocked by your arrest. I had an international arrest warrant. So
:06:15. > :06:17.and there were very technical issues as whether the tribunal would
:06:18. > :06:20.recognise genocide from '92 or only for '95 in relation to Srebrenica.
:06:21. > :06:23.And that was what people expected me to assist them.
:06:24. > :06:30.I was not trying to get inside to follow the...
:06:31. > :06:33.One journalist with knowledge of the Balkans war, who is an admirer
:06:34. > :06:36.of your efforts, told us he was cross with your decision to attend.
:06:37. > :06:38.He said, what did she think would happen?
:06:39. > :06:41.It turned the spotlight from the victims and families
:06:42. > :06:46.Well, I explained I was invited by the victims.
:06:47. > :06:48.Maybe you will call it, I don't answer,
:06:49. > :06:53.I was been a witness of mass violence.
:06:54. > :06:55.As a generation, along with other journalists, educated with
:06:56. > :06:59."never again," and it was betrayed in front of our eyes after the fall
:07:00. > :07:03.of the ball Berlin Wall when we expected Europe would be safe.
:07:04. > :07:11.Journalists, together with public opinion,
:07:12. > :07:25.those who established a tribunal, we asked for accountability.
:07:26. > :07:28.OK, and I want to ask you about your experiences a little later.
:07:29. > :07:41.We will finish this question of what happened to you.
:07:42. > :07:45.You were detained for a matter of days in the detention centre there.
:07:46. > :07:46.You complained about your conditions.
:07:47. > :07:48.You were not happy with the fact you were segregated
:07:49. > :07:58.No, because I am travelling in the former Yugoslavia, I have
:07:59. > :08:01.testified as a prosecution witness against some of them, for Vukovar
:08:02. > :08:10.massacre, and they are living freely in the countries I am visiting.
:08:11. > :08:13.But I am talking about people who are also in the detention centre.
:08:14. > :08:17.The commanding officer, let me tell you what he said, and this was
:08:18. > :08:20.brought up in the appeal over your conditions, he said it would be
:08:21. > :08:23.extremely difficult to guarantee the physical safety of Ms Hartmann as a
:08:24. > :08:25.high profile member of the tribunal's prosecution team
:08:26. > :08:27.if she was allowed to mingle with detainees.
:08:28. > :08:31.I hope you read the next paragraph, which is completely the opposite,
:08:32. > :08:34.saying that I am a prominent journalist who has authored several
:08:35. > :08:37.books on the Balkans, which means clearly that I speak their language.
:08:38. > :08:49.They are worried I will speak with them.
:08:50. > :08:51.The following paragraph is that she could observe or she could pass
:08:52. > :08:54.information, so I would be the best confidant of those people,
:08:55. > :08:56.which is completely contradictory with the first paragraph.
:08:57. > :09:14.They didn't want me to do my job as a journalist within the detention
:09:15. > :09:19.for doing my job in the detention unit, so it's quite a Kafka story.
:09:20. > :09:22.Let me go back then to the circumstances that led to this
:09:23. > :09:30.That I did not expect to be arrested because no European country wanted
:09:31. > :09:33.to arrest me because they were informed by my lawyer and
:09:34. > :09:36.by myself that there were so many irregularities during the preceding
:09:37. > :09:37.that the conviction was secured through
:09:38. > :09:40.violation of European Convention on Human Rights and that I would sue
:09:41. > :09:56.And secondly, they had no reason to limit my own freedom to assist
:09:57. > :09:58.justice, together with victims for which justice was to be
:09:59. > :10:01.rendered, just because there are some judges who do not accept the
:10:02. > :10:10.This was all the result of a book you published in 2007, and then
:10:11. > :10:14.an online article in 2008, exposing details of decision reached by the
:10:15. > :10:20.Because it was in the public domain that there was
:10:21. > :10:37.a deal between the institution, the ICTY, and the state, Serbia,
:10:38. > :10:40.and I was not happy with the fact that it was the institution.
:10:41. > :10:43.You have to name people otherwise you contribute to discredit
:10:44. > :10:51.And I am a supporter of international justice.
:10:52. > :10:54.And so I was very surprised that the journalist did not investigate that.
:10:55. > :10:58.And I did it at the end of the book because the subject came out while I
:10:59. > :11:06.I had left the tribunal, I came back to journalism and writing.
:11:07. > :11:32.OK, so any suggestion this is information acquired when working
:11:33. > :11:37.It was never alleged, even by the ICTY, who doesn't like me.
:11:38. > :11:43.I disclosed the key element which were told to meet, and they were
:11:44. > :11:55.right, in the end I was indicted, confirming it was the truth.
:11:56. > :11:58.The tribunal did say that in the course
:11:59. > :12:01.of this it said that Ms Hartmann knew how to accurately convey
:12:02. > :12:04.information to the public without taking the risk of infringing
:12:05. > :12:08.You are an experienced journalist and communicator who could have got
:12:09. > :12:11.the essence of this across without actually doing the things that lead
:12:12. > :12:20.Oh, sorry, I am sorry I did my job as a journalist,
:12:21. > :12:25.I had obviously good sources and I didn't know that I was quoting
:12:26. > :12:27.precisely the decision because I haven't seen it.
:12:28. > :12:29.I knew that the whole story was confidential.
:12:30. > :12:34.My story showed that it was not only an immoral deal
:12:35. > :12:36.between the tribunal, namely judges from the appeal chamber,
:12:37. > :12:41.With the state being Serbia, and to be clear for those watching, this is
:12:42. > :12:44.about documents that were disclosed to the court but then were not made
:12:45. > :12:57.public, and you felt that those documents could have helped the
:12:58. > :12:59.victims of war in a different court get compensation?
:13:00. > :13:01.Yeah, that was what the victims were looking for,
:13:02. > :13:05.You can have confidentiality on documents, a state is entitled
:13:06. > :13:07.to request specific confidential measures, but only limitation
:13:08. > :13:20.of the freedom of information goes on very specific terms.
:13:21. > :13:21.For instance, national security interest.
:13:22. > :13:25.The legal reasoning I disclosed was that there is no
:13:26. > :13:28."We cannot grant you the special security confidential measure you
:13:29. > :13:32.But we will not apply the law, we will give you...
:13:33. > :13:48.Hang on, the expectation was created by the court itself,
:13:49. > :13:51.which was the point the appeal chamber made, the expectation was
:13:52. > :13:54.created sometime ago by the court and therefore on this occasion that
:13:55. > :13:57.Yeah, but I don't know who is making promises and everything.
:13:58. > :14:01.This is about saying, the rules were this, you can't change
:14:02. > :14:04.the rules halfway through, that's unmanifestly unfair to either paty.
:14:05. > :14:06.The rules were saying you can grant it on specific reasons...
:14:07. > :14:08.There is a UN Security Council resolution...
:14:09. > :14:12.Absolutely, and there is one paragraph, which is number seven,
:14:13. > :14:14.saying that the tribunal should not take any decisions
:14:15. > :14:17.which are going against the right of the victim to seek reparation.
:14:18. > :14:27.There were no funds created with the tribunal to pay reparation to
:14:28. > :14:33.Netherlands, which there is absolutely no reason to have that. I
:14:34. > :14:37.was afraid to travel for the first 15 days. Then when I understood
:14:38. > :14:41.that, I could go to a country where I could check. I was on the list of
:14:42. > :14:54.And yet, as you also said in your online article in 2008,
:14:55. > :14:57.the ICJ, the International Court of Justice, the one that was
:14:58. > :15:00.hearing this claim that could have led to compensation, could have
:15:01. > :15:03.Curiously, the court didn't ask Serbians to hand them over.
:15:04. > :15:06.That is not the point of the war crimes tribunals, that is
:15:07. > :15:15.Yes, either you have Bosnia, who could bring those documents,
:15:16. > :15:19.they were not given, or you can have a judge saying that for the sake of
:15:20. > :15:31.No, so in other words it made no difference to the claim that
:15:32. > :15:36.But they were exposed now, because of my exposing the decision.
:15:37. > :15:39.So you would argue that your article and book helped bring
:15:40. > :15:51.More archives are available to the victims now, and I am very happy.
:15:52. > :15:53.And I was convicted, while the decision was overturned
:15:54. > :15:56.So it is completely, always, contradictory.
:15:57. > :15:59.And I am doing my job, as you are doing your job
:16:00. > :16:04.Is it a problem, for instance, that the BBC or other...
:16:05. > :16:07.Other British journalists spoke about the sexed up report
:16:08. > :16:33.It may be their job, but you have to consider the
:16:34. > :16:36.consequences of your actions, don't you, as any journalist has to do?
:16:37. > :16:41.Let me put a question to you now, and that is this.
:16:42. > :16:45.It is true, is it not, that the existence of a deal
:16:46. > :16:47.between the tribunal and the Serbian government had long since
:16:48. > :16:55.So, therefore, what did your publication add to that?
:16:56. > :16:59.I told you that I took out the issue of the idea to name
:17:00. > :17:12.I decided to name what was already in the public domain.
:17:13. > :17:15.Yes, because if you want to support international justice...
:17:16. > :17:18.You don't drop democracy because you have one minister corrupt.
:17:19. > :17:27.You speak about mainly the one who is corrupt.
:17:28. > :17:30.Well, that is a serious allegation to make.
:17:31. > :17:33.Because the judges would say, I am sure, were they here, and they are
:17:34. > :17:36.not here to defend themselves, that they made their judgement based on
:17:37. > :17:42.Now, you can dispute that, but that is a different perspective.
:17:43. > :17:45.They were saying, in the decision, they were saying that they don't
:17:46. > :17:54.want to apply the law, they will do something else.
:17:55. > :17:55.Because if I could ask this question,
:17:56. > :17:58.which is, the rules were one thing, you can't change them halfway,
:17:59. > :18:02.You are saying you are supporting international justice.
:18:03. > :18:04.Let me put you what the tribunal has said.
:18:05. > :18:07.They said the effect of Ms Hartmann's disclosure was too
:18:08. > :18:08.decrease the likelihood of states co-operating
:18:09. > :18:11.in the future, therefore undermining its ability to prosecute serious
:18:12. > :18:17.It is giving me a serious lot of influence.
:18:18. > :18:21.Would you say that a journalist speaking about a corrupt minister
:18:22. > :18:33.would decrease the love for democracy from other countries?
:18:34. > :18:37.But this is a court, and it is a court that depends
:18:38. > :18:39.on its moral authority in order to persuade people.
:18:40. > :18:42.You yourself said at the start of this interview this court does
:18:43. > :18:46.It cannot enforce, it cannot go and drag people into the court.
:18:47. > :18:50.It needs the cooperation of those states.
:18:51. > :18:52.Absolutely, and I am for cooperating with those states.
:18:53. > :18:55.And I was the first spokesperson of the tribunal speaking
:18:56. > :18:59.And I was calling the politicians over the weekend, night and day,
:19:00. > :19:02.when I was working, for six years, to co-operate with the tribunal.
:19:03. > :19:04.Wasn't this publication more about journalistic ego?
:19:05. > :19:07.No, it was about the first in-depth analysis of international justice.
:19:08. > :19:09.The first explaining it was quite exposed to political pressure,
:19:10. > :19:11.and that was a problem for the credibility of international
:19:12. > :19:15.justice, and that it should be supported by the public, and we
:19:16. > :19:17.should explain and understand where was the problem,
:19:18. > :19:20.in order not to say, we don't want it because it is not good.
:19:21. > :19:23.Because that would be supporting the position of the war criminals.
:19:24. > :19:26.There was some dysfunction, how to improve them,
:19:27. > :19:30.They know how to encourage, even to compel
:19:31. > :19:33.their own states to send better judges, for instance, even the
:19:34. > :19:35.states to better co-operate, because the cooperation was a problem.
:19:36. > :19:38.Not only from the state or the region, it was a problem.
:19:39. > :19:41.France would say we wouldn't give military archives, the US,
:19:42. > :19:42.Great Britain, they wouldn't give anything.
:19:43. > :19:44.You know, you need this pressure from outside,
:19:45. > :19:48.I never violated anything related to investigation, and I had
:19:49. > :19:52.I was working for the prosecution, I was not working with the judges, and
:19:53. > :19:57.But I had access to the names of witnesses, to everything.
:19:58. > :20:00.And contempt of court is to punish those who disclose the name of...
:20:01. > :20:45.Anything that undermines the work of the court, isn't it?
:20:46. > :20:48.And they argued that you undermined the work of the court.
:20:49. > :20:50.We will leave that, because you have been clear.
:20:51. > :20:53.It is interfering with justice, I haven't interfered with justice.
:20:54. > :20:55.But you have prevented future cases coming,
:20:56. > :21:02.I brought more defendants to the court.
:21:03. > :21:05.You were the first to bring to light one of
:21:06. > :21:14.I risked my life to find the first mass grave.
:21:15. > :21:16.The UN had a special commission to look for
:21:17. > :21:19.information, that was the Polish Prime Minister, Tadeusz Mazowiecki,
:21:20. > :21:30.They had no means, but they were in good relation with...
:21:31. > :21:33.And this is back in October 1992, when you helped expose this mass
:21:34. > :21:36.They got information from a survivor from this mass
:21:37. > :21:38.killing, and they were not entitled to give any information.
:21:39. > :21:41.They had to hide, and they were a UN commission,
:21:42. > :21:44.They said, there is a mass grave in Vukovar you
:21:45. > :21:48.Then I got some input, not from them, from local sources,
:21:49. > :21:51.And I went there, because I knew that
:21:52. > :21:55.if I found a mass grave it would be the same, though I could tell
:21:56. > :21:59.The mass grave is from the missing people from the hospital
:22:00. > :22:04.260 people who were taken from that hospital and killed
:22:05. > :22:31.And at that time Mazowiecki did greet me, half-an-hour after
:22:32. > :22:34.my article was published, didn't send me in jail because I disclosed
:22:35. > :22:51.In the end, of 161 accused, 81 people have been held
:22:52. > :22:53.accountable, they have been convicted, some charges have been
:22:54. > :22:56.withdrawn, about 19 acquittals, some sent to other courts.
:22:57. > :22:58.But that is a pretty impressive record, isn't it?
:22:59. > :23:06.In the end, this tribunal has done its job.
:23:07. > :23:13.Not to blame the tribunal itself, but the circumstances,
:23:14. > :23:15.the environment, was so difficult because everyone wanted...
:23:16. > :23:17.At one point, you know, that was great, when they were
:23:18. > :23:20.documenting the crimes, and when they were getting along the
:23:21. > :23:25.And as soon as they got at the top, then, you know,
:23:26. > :23:45.Thank you so much for joining us on HARDtalk.
:23:46. > :24:15.Our weather story for the next few days is,
:24:16. > :24:19.We've got a big, lumbering area of low pressure down to the south-west