:00:00. > :00:13.Yet again, Pakistan stands accused of playing a double game on
:00:14. > :00:20.confronting it at home, using it as a foreign policy tool in
:00:21. > :00:27.After a deadly Taliban attack in Kabul just days ago, the Afghan
:00:28. > :00:32.president demanded that Islamabad stop talking of peace negotiations
:00:33. > :00:38.and instead focus on eliminating Taliban havens inside Pakistan.
:00:39. > :00:42.My guest today is former Pakistani foreign minister Hina Rabbani Khar.
:00:43. > :01:14.Is Pakistan addicted to the double game?
:01:15. > :01:19.Hina Rabbani Khar, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:20. > :01:27.Pleasure to be here. I think it is fair to say that Pakistan is
:01:28. > :01:31.distrusted by its neighbours, Afghanistan and India. Distrusted
:01:32. > :01:39.also in Washington. Do you think that distrust is merited? Obviously
:01:40. > :01:44.not. I mean, you would use the word discredited, I would use the word
:01:45. > :01:52.scapegoated. I think the country has been scapegoated for a war that has
:01:53. > :01:55.not delivered the results that the international community expected,
:01:56. > :02:00.and there has to be somebody blamed. Early on, but even early on, it is
:02:01. > :02:06.interesting, because I recently met someone who served as CIA acting
:02:07. > :02:12.director and asked him how were relations during his time? This is a
:02:13. > :02:17.person associated since 2005, and he said Pakistan happened to be our
:02:18. > :02:20.best possible ally and we had benefited more from our
:02:21. > :02:23.collaboration and cooperation with your intelligence agency than any
:02:24. > :02:27.other in the world. I don't want to go into details of the long
:02:28. > :02:31.conversation we had as to what might have happened, but in my view, and
:02:32. > :02:36.having served as Pakistan Foreign Minister drink this difficult times,
:02:37. > :02:44.it is a war that did not deliver the results we wanted. Pakistan has its
:02:45. > :02:49.own, located situation. I am always amazed and surprised how Pakistan is
:02:50. > :02:55.expected to, and solve other problems before its own --
:02:56. > :03:00.complicated. If I may, the version of offends you recounted does not
:03:01. > :03:06.match what I hear from Washington or India or Pakistan. If we stick with
:03:07. > :03:09.Washington, when you took over as Foreign Minister in 2011, these were
:03:10. > :03:14.the words that must be ringing in your ears. Hillary Clinton saying
:03:15. > :03:19.you cannot keep snakes, into was referring to the Taliban, in your
:03:20. > :03:22.backyard, and expect them to only by your neighbours. That is the view
:03:23. > :03:28.Washington has of Pakistan. You keep snakes in your backyard. In 2011,
:03:29. > :03:33.that is exactly the view Bill Clinton and perhaps the entire
:03:34. > :03:39.Western establishment had -- Hillary Clinton. It is still be filling in
:03:40. > :03:43.Washington today. I figure it is different, but unfortunately the
:03:44. > :03:47.problem is far too complex to solve in 30 minutes. All of the patients
:03:48. > :03:51.the West is hard for the realities of the region where I come from, if
:03:52. > :03:56.you give me maybe two minutes to just say the reality is that
:03:57. > :04:00.Pakistan has been paying close to about 3 million Afghan refugees
:04:01. > :04:07.since the last three decades. Britain was recently deciding to
:04:08. > :04:14.take 20,000 refugees from Syria in a matter of five years, that is about
:04:15. > :04:20.8000 a year or less. We have been playing host to these many refugees,
:04:21. > :04:23.right? Refugees and not the problem, it is the Taliban leadership who
:04:24. > :04:29.have used your soil as a safe haven for years. With respect, as Foreign
:04:30. > :04:34.Minister, you denied an -- and offers skated. We had a senior
:04:35. > :04:42.Pakistani official for the first time say it is true, they are now so
:04:43. > :04:45.and they even received medical treatment. That gives us some of
:04:46. > :04:51.which over them, but the truth is you don't use that the rich. I think
:04:52. > :04:54.that would be completely a misrepresentation of how things are
:04:55. > :05:01.on the ground. I need to finish my two minutes to make the point that
:05:02. > :05:04.with 3 million in Pakistan, it is virtually impossible for a country
:05:05. > :05:09.with the paraphernalia that Pakistan has, complete control over who is
:05:10. > :05:15.entering and exiting. I will give you two examples. We wanted that
:05:16. > :05:20.control. We put the biometric system on our borders. On a single border
:05:21. > :05:24.post, 60,000 Pakistanis and Afghans cross that border post and checked
:05:25. > :05:30.without passports and visas every day. Do you expect us to have the
:05:31. > :05:35.wherewithal to find out how many of them are Taliban or not? I would not
:05:36. > :05:39.be little the logistical problems you are talking about the huge
:05:40. > :05:44.refugee problem Pakistan has faced. I want to get to some honesty about
:05:45. > :05:48.the realities of when you were Foreign Minister and today. Symbol
:05:49. > :05:54.question, yes or no. When you were Foreign Minister, did you know you
:05:55. > :06:03.Taliban leadership was using safe haven in Pakistan and controlling
:06:04. > :06:07.operations inside Afghanistan? I forget is impossible to be
:06:08. > :06:10.simplistic. It is unfair to the realities to be that simply stick.
:06:11. > :06:16.Why are senior officials now admitting it? -- simply stick. What
:06:17. > :06:22.they are an outing is not that different from what we were an
:06:23. > :06:29.outing. There are not only two factions of the Taliban but more
:06:30. > :06:32.than two factions. There is a faction that has been killing people
:06:33. > :06:38.and recruiting people in Pakistan the last many years. As far as
:06:39. > :06:44.Pakistan is concerned, I can tell you this is absolutely my personal
:06:45. > :06:47.view, and a few that the Pakistani establishment in government has come
:06:48. > :06:52.too many years back, anyone who uses violence against anyone within
:06:53. > :07:01.Pakistan or outside Pakistan is a terrorist. That is the explanation.
:07:02. > :07:07.They asked before a second? -- may I introduce for a second? We have a
:07:08. > :07:11.limited amount of time. President President Mack as a result of the
:07:12. > :07:17.recent terror attacks which killed more than 60 people in a security
:07:18. > :07:21.service wielding -- Asif Ali Zardari, Pakistan has two. This idea
:07:22. > :07:26.of dropping this idea of arranging negotiations with the Taliban. The
:07:27. > :07:32.Pakistani government need to eliminate the Taliban, who are
:07:33. > :07:36.inside Pakistan. That is the only way to deliver 's peace and
:07:37. > :07:45.security. Is Pakistan preferred to do that -- repaired to do that? Once
:07:46. > :07:49.President Asif Ali Zardari decides what it wants to do once and for
:07:50. > :08:03.all, does he want Pakistan to be a piece builder -- please builder,
:08:04. > :08:07.just now Mack? Are you prepared to launch an offensive against the
:08:08. > :08:14.Taliban? He would be well advised to be told it is Pakistan's job to
:08:15. > :08:19.first eliminate terrorists who are a threat to Pakistani civilians... You
:08:20. > :08:23.have a different idea. Those who work in India or Afghanistan are
:08:24. > :08:32.something else compared to those who work in Pakistan? That would be...
:08:33. > :08:41.That I want to clarify if you would give me a moment. I need to ask a
:08:42. > :08:45.question in response to that, how do you first decide to ensure the
:08:46. > :08:50.safety and security of your own civilians, or use of the UK pay
:08:51. > :08:57.Minister's job was to listen to what is a threat to France. The exact
:08:58. > :09:00.Prime Minister. It is important that we are able to understand that
:09:01. > :09:12.Pakistan's first responsibility is to its own citizens. I as the saying
:09:13. > :09:18.is a lot of authority. Pakistan is putting an operation. Anyone using
:09:19. > :09:24.violence is as much a threat to Pakistan as anyone who uses it
:09:25. > :09:32.against the sun. -- Pakistan. Exporting violence, the Pakistanis
:09:33. > :09:37.have eroded their own security, it has been said. They are not separate
:09:38. > :09:40.the connected. It was said they have undermined their international
:09:41. > :09:44.credibility and undermined their economic well-being. He said that
:09:45. > :09:49.just before or just after you came into the Foreign Ministry. Nothing
:09:50. > :09:53.has changed. A lot has changed. I don't think that is looking at what
:09:54. > :09:56.has happened in Pakistan and following what Pakistan has been
:09:57. > :10:02.doing. A massive operation has been launched. Soldiers are dying. This
:10:03. > :10:08.has been going on for years. Let's talk internal staff. In terms of the
:10:09. > :10:14.terror threat, the events we outside of Pakistan, such as the horrible
:10:15. > :10:19.school attack, and then recently the Lahore attack where civilians and
:10:20. > :10:22.many Christians but many others too were targeted at Easter just this
:10:23. > :10:28.last is. There are hundreds of people dying as a result of your
:10:29. > :10:34.state's failure to get on top of the violent extremists inside your own
:10:35. > :10:40.country. I am always impressed with how quick you article as a failure.
:10:41. > :10:48.The task at hand is very large. -- you are to call us. I am always
:10:49. > :10:53.excepting the fact that there are some unintended consequences of
:10:54. > :11:00.people trained on our soil who were trained with funding from other
:11:01. > :11:06.countries, it left a deep void. There was no exit strategy. For us
:11:07. > :11:10.there was no exit strategy. That has brought the threat of terrorism to
:11:11. > :11:18.Pakistani soil. It is a living thread. To deny the fact that since
:11:19. > :11:23.2014, and before that in 2008, the incidence of terrorism have not
:11:24. > :11:29.decreased. It is a luxury you might be able to afford, but I can't deny
:11:30. > :11:34.that. The terrorist incidents in Pakistan have actually reduced by
:11:35. > :11:37.50%. That means a lot. That means hundreds more Pakistanis are living
:11:38. > :11:40.today and not dying because of terrorism as opposed to before. If
:11:41. > :11:46.you want to say that is nothing, to me that is a bot. My civilians being
:11:47. > :11:50.able to live. You cannot deny what this war has done to extremism and
:11:51. > :11:55.to propel extremists out of Pakistan. The way drone strikes were
:11:56. > :12:00.used in Pakistani territory with or without our government acquiescence
:12:01. > :12:03.has a lot to do with its rivers and... I did want to talk briefly
:12:04. > :12:12.about joint strikes. You decide with or without Pakistani acquiescence.
:12:13. > :12:16.-- you just said. There are CIA Zika papers that show there was
:12:17. > :12:20.cooperation between the American CIA and the Pakistani government on the
:12:21. > :12:27.targeting, the use of these trends. You were Foreign Minister. Are you
:12:28. > :12:31.now prepared to tell the truth and say yes, we worked with the
:12:32. > :12:37.Americans on the joins. Yes, but I am prepared to tell the truth, not
:12:38. > :12:44.what you want me to say. Between 2011 and 2013, there was no copper
:12:45. > :12:51.operation between Pakistan and America, because the relationship
:12:52. > :12:55.had already gone sour. For six months, the US refused to apologise.
:12:56. > :13:06.These are the realities we were living in. The killing of a summer
:13:07. > :13:10.Bin Laden. I admit as president Asif Ali Zardari has admitted in his
:13:11. > :13:16.memoirs and later in interviews that the US and Pakistan were cooperating
:13:17. > :13:20.on who to strike. That is interesting. You are saying by the
:13:21. > :13:23.time I came into power and was Foreign Minister, our relationship
:13:24. > :13:30.with the US was fundamentally different. It was. You taught at the
:13:31. > :13:35.time about wanting to move away from a strong and dependent relationship
:13:36. > :13:38.in the United States and wanted to focus on the neighbourhood and on
:13:39. > :13:41.the region, India and Afghanistan, developing ties with them. I
:13:42. > :13:48.remember you saying that. Where are we today? The Pakistani government
:13:49. > :13:51.is still hoping to receive eight F-16 fighter jets from the United
:13:52. > :13:55.States were stuck the Pakistani government in the last five or six
:13:56. > :13:59.years has received something like $8 billion of US aid and development
:14:00. > :14:03.assistance. Is the Pakistani government keen on a partnership
:14:04. > :14:07.with the United States or not? I am confused.
:14:08. > :14:15.It wants a realistic expectation of and with the United States.
:14:16. > :14:18.Historically, Pakistan has had unrealistic expectations of the US
:14:19. > :14:23.and I will say that on your show as well. Pakistan has wanted to solve
:14:24. > :14:30.regional problems via Washington or London, not inculcating relations it
:14:31. > :14:35.should in the region. As you have in the EU et cetera. We have tried to
:14:36. > :14:39.change that. For that, if there is a record of that, we have tried to
:14:40. > :14:46.normalise trading relations with India, which come until our time,
:14:47. > :14:52.was considered something which would only happen if it came from India.
:14:53. > :14:55.We have tried to change it. To warm up the relationship without solving
:14:56. > :15:00.Kashmir. That has failed. India is accusing you, if I can save...
:15:01. > :15:06.(CROSSTALK). Jumping to failure is interesting. I look at the facts.
:15:07. > :15:09.Earlier this year there was a terror attack on an air base in India which
:15:10. > :15:16.India land on Pakistan as a result... Not on the state but on
:15:17. > :15:21.elements within Pakistan. Let me tell you where the success is. What
:15:22. > :15:25.did Pakistan do? The old Pakistan would say it did not happen and
:15:26. > :15:29.India is making this up against Pakistan. The new Pakistan says if
:15:30. > :15:35.there is evidence proving people inside Pakistan used... Used
:15:36. > :15:39.wherewithal to do this, share with us and we will be part of the
:15:40. > :15:44.investigation. The whole investigation happened, Pakistani
:15:45. > :15:51.people went through the entire records, so things have changed. You
:15:52. > :15:54.said two interesting things after the horrible school attack at the
:15:55. > :15:58.end of 2014. You are no longer Foreign Minister. You were still a
:15:59. > :16:03.political player. An important voice in their people's party. You said
:16:04. > :16:10.the intelligence architecture of this country is archaic and must be
:16:11. > :16:14.changed. You also said the Madras, the religious schools which have
:16:15. > :16:19.flourished for far too long, they must impart the real peaceful
:16:20. > :16:24.teachings of Islam or if they cannot, will not, they must be
:16:25. > :16:28.closed down. What has changed? I am not in government to answer that
:16:29. > :16:36.question as I could if I was in government, but clearly post the
:16:37. > :16:39.Army Public School attack, the architecture as it appears mightn't
:16:40. > :16:43.have changed and it needs to change. It doesn't seem to have changed at
:16:44. > :16:48.all to an outsider like me. And to me to be fair. We have not achieved
:16:49. > :16:54.what I had put out as a way forward at all. The intelligence agencies
:16:55. > :16:58.are probably now speaking to each other more than they have before,
:16:59. > :17:04.which is not great. I won't say we deserve brownie points. On the
:17:05. > :17:12.Madras, it has been a serious problem. Funded by Saudi Arabia,
:17:13. > :17:21.those who want to encourage that brand of divisive Islam. And that
:17:22. > :17:25.has not done us any favours -- Madrasses. I will not defend it. The
:17:26. > :17:31.state has to be more in control of knowledge which is imparted to
:17:32. > :17:34.children than it is today. Why has the state failed for so many years
:17:35. > :17:40.to listen to people outside who have delivered that message? I think the
:17:41. > :17:45.state's inability to be able to react to so many challenges is
:17:46. > :17:48.limited. Then Uvini feel like you are saying, you know what, the state
:17:49. > :17:54.is dysfunctional to the point of being a failed state. How many times
:17:55. > :18:01.can you see these problems are to be before...? The fact is, I don't
:18:02. > :18:03.think we need to explain that in a developing country the state
:18:04. > :18:07.structures are very different to those in yours and even in your
:18:08. > :18:10.country, sometimes dealing with challenges like this is an uphill
:18:11. > :18:17.task. I won't try to justify it here, I won't try to paint with a
:18:18. > :18:22.happy brush the reality of the state. Understand, the civilian
:18:23. > :18:26.architecture has not been there for a long time. Here is what you said
:18:27. > :18:31.about that in December 2015 and I wonder if it still applies and how
:18:32. > :18:35.worried we should be. The military still plays a bloated role in
:18:36. > :18:40.Pakistan's politics. You said the Prime Minister has much less freedom
:18:41. > :18:43.than he ought to have. Again, from my vantage point, I need to look at
:18:44. > :18:49.the trajectory my country is following. I need to see the
:18:50. > :18:53.civilian role and responsibilities are being taken more than they were
:18:54. > :18:57.ten years back. From that point of view I think the fact we have had
:18:58. > :19:02.two democratic regimes, one after the other, institutions are being
:19:03. > :19:06.built. That civilian role... Civilians are taking responsibility.
:19:07. > :19:12.To what extent is that rule and roll real or to what extent is there, to
:19:13. > :19:18.coin a phrase often used in Turkey, still a deep state behind the
:19:19. > :19:22.elected politicians which is really making key decisions when it comes
:19:23. > :19:27.to all we have discussed today, international relations and national
:19:28. > :19:30.security? -- role. No more than they have done in the US. Believe me, I
:19:31. > :19:35.thought they were a country where the military also had if not a
:19:36. > :19:41.bloated role, even a bigger role. You think in the United of America,
:19:42. > :19:46.the military runs the system more thoroughly than it does in Pakistan?
:19:47. > :19:50.Yes. Equally. That is an extraordinary thing to say. The
:19:51. > :19:54.overall establishment, including the military in the United States of
:19:55. > :19:59.America, has a huge role to play. And I can tell you, whoever is
:20:00. > :20:09.president of the US has little to do with US policy in terms of War and
:20:10. > :20:14.peace. -- war. That is a really interesting insight into the way
:20:15. > :20:16.it... I guess you are part of the Pakistani establishment and the way
:20:17. > :20:21.you think. Let me talk more about the establishment. Recent times, the
:20:22. > :20:25.Pakistani media has been full of stories coming out of the Panama
:20:26. > :20:30.Papers. Revelations about offshore tax havens held by many powerful
:20:31. > :20:35.people, including powerful people in Pakistan. The family of the Prime
:20:36. > :20:42.Minister, associates of Benazir Bhutto, Benazir Bhutto herself in
:20:43. > :20:45.2001 had some connection with an offshore account. There is cynicism
:20:46. > :20:51.about the level of corruption inside the elite. Do you understand that?
:20:52. > :20:56.Of course I understand. It is a realistic and a real and
:20:57. > :21:02.well-deserved sense within the Pakistani people. Because, you know,
:21:03. > :21:07.we haven't managed this country as well as we should have. And I think
:21:08. > :21:13.all of these things will bring in much more transparency within how we
:21:14. > :21:16.govern, and this is a process all countries have to follow.
:21:17. > :21:21.Unfortunately, in cases of countries like Pakistan, these forces have not
:21:22. > :21:24.been given the time I typically a country like yours or a European
:21:25. > :21:27.country would have gotten to reach the point because state structures
:21:28. > :21:32.have not developed the way they should have. It is interesting that
:21:33. > :21:39.you said we, are you speaking on the Pakistani elite? Re-buy not know,
:21:40. > :21:43.the audience, but your father was a leading politician, he had a seat in
:21:44. > :21:50.parliament, and then when the rules changed and could not sit because he
:21:51. > :21:53.did not have a university place, the seat was granted to you -- we might.
:21:54. > :21:59.That seems to be symbolic of the dynastic, feudal nature of politics
:22:00. > :22:07.which you would perhaps agree with me needs to change. Absolutely. It
:22:08. > :22:11.is changing. With respect, your foreign mill a star at 34, you
:22:12. > :22:17.represent the success of the old elite -- Foreign Minister. My family
:22:18. > :22:22.name is much more well-known because of my uncle, who could not win an
:22:23. > :22:28.election for the last 35 years, as a poster my father, who works for the
:22:29. > :22:30.people and is therefore elected. He does work for it. It is
:22:31. > :22:35.interesting, when people act as if, just because of my name, my family
:22:36. > :22:41.name is more well-known because of an uncle who served as governor in
:22:42. > :22:47.Punjab, who has not got elected into any five years. You won't like it
:22:48. > :22:52.but I will quote you another member of the dynastic tradition who is
:22:53. > :22:55.self-aware. Making someone like Miss Khar send a message to young people
:22:56. > :22:59.that the only way into politics in Pakistan is through families. I come
:23:00. > :23:03.back to this point, if Pakistan is to change on many different levels,
:23:04. > :23:08.that has to be part of the change. That change cannot be enforced or
:23:09. > :23:15.just sort of brought within years. It will take a few years, perhaps a
:23:16. > :23:20.few decades. What is the state doing to inculcate that change or to bring
:23:21. > :23:23.that change? It is reserving 30% of parliamentary seats for women who
:23:24. > :23:28.don't come from elite families like mine but average backgrounds as
:23:29. > :23:31.nominated by political parties. The state is insuring 10% of
:23:32. > :23:35.administration posts are given to women. They don't have to come from
:23:36. > :23:38.an elitist background like mine but from normal, average, you know,
:23:39. > :23:42.middle-class type of backgrounds. This is the role the state is
:23:43. > :23:47.playing to be able to make sure that every woman gets a chance. I except
:23:48. > :23:51.the fact that I come from a very privileged... I would not call it
:23:52. > :23:54.elitist but from a privileged background. I except the fact I came
:23:55. > :23:59.into politics because of who my father was. I accept all about. I
:24:00. > :24:05.say that does not deny the fact that things are changing in Pakistan --
:24:06. > :24:07.that. With that message we have to end, but Hina Rabbani Khar, thank
:24:08. > :24:13.you so much for being on HARDtalk.