:00:00. > :00:13.Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Stephen Sackur.
:00:14. > :00:23.Fill it in the woes afflicting Iraq seems endless. Prime Minister Haider
:00:24. > :00:27.al-Abadi has promised a cleanup of rampant corruption which he appears
:00:28. > :00:31.unable to deliver, with anger on the streets not least because public
:00:32. > :00:35.services are shambolic and the oil dependent economies in meltdown --
:00:36. > :00:40.the littany. All of this while the government is supposed to be focused
:00:41. > :00:44.on fighting the Islamic State insurgency. Well, my guest is long
:00:45. > :00:49.serving government minister Hussain Al-Shahristani. Is he one of the old
:00:50. > :01:14.guard responsible for this Iraqi mess?
:01:15. > :01:26.Hussain Al-Shahristani, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:27. > :01:33.Well, thank you for inviting me. It is good to be with you for the third
:01:34. > :01:38.time. That is right. We have spoken before. You are a veteran of Iraqi
:01:39. > :01:42.government. I have not asked a minister a question like this - the
:01:43. > :01:47.confusion and chaos in Baghdad today, I am not sure whether you
:01:48. > :01:50.have resigned your post as minister of higher education or whether you
:01:51. > :01:58.have been fired or whether you are still in the government. Can you
:01:59. > :02:04.enlighten me? Yes. I have handed in my resignation about two months ago
:02:05. > :02:10.to the Prime Minister. I have consistently asked him to exit that
:02:11. > :02:13.resignation. Yesterday that resignation was accepted and I am
:02:14. > :02:20.not a minister of higher education any more. There are many rumours in
:02:21. > :02:23.Baghdad that you call it a resignation but you were fired
:02:24. > :02:26.because you are part of the old guard that the Prime Minister Haider
:02:27. > :02:35.al-Abadi is determined to get rid of. No, that is not quite the case.
:02:36. > :02:42.Mr al-Abadi has been on the record several times saying that he is very
:02:43. > :02:48.proud of some of his ministers and he has mentioned my name in
:02:49. > :02:57.particular, but there has been a demand, popular demand, that a new
:02:58. > :03:00.cabinet should be introduced, of technocrats, and Mr Abadi has
:03:01. > :03:10.conceded to that popular call and he has asked, actually, all of the
:03:11. > :03:13.ministers to resign, and they did. In my particular case, my
:03:14. > :03:20.resignation was two months ahead of the others, but the fact is that all
:03:21. > :03:27.ministers did resign when he intended to set up a new government.
:03:28. > :03:31.Now, Doctor Al-Shahristani, you are talking from the green zone, the
:03:32. > :03:38.protected government area at the heart of Baghdad, is that right?
:03:39. > :03:41.That is correct, yes. So, you must be aware more than anyone of the
:03:42. > :03:53.degree of anger in Baghdad today, because as you know, hundreds of
:03:54. > :03:59.thousands have been making their anger known on the streets around
:04:00. > :04:03.the green zone. Such is the fury of people with not just the
:04:04. > :04:07.incompetence of the Iraqi government over the years but the rampant
:04:08. > :04:16.corruption. Do you understand the depth of that anger? Yes, I do, but
:04:17. > :04:24.let's put things in perspective. The government was voted in after
:04:25. > :04:27.elections. More than 10 million Iraqis have taken part in those
:04:28. > :04:32.elections and they have elected to parliament that has voted in the
:04:33. > :04:40.government. Not necessarily just Abadi's government, the government
:04:41. > :04:45.before that. And for 10,000 people or more to demonstrate, that is a
:04:46. > :04:52.welcome sign of people expressing their wishes, their demands. But to
:04:53. > :04:56.assume that represents the whole Iraqi people, I don't think that is
:04:57. > :05:09.very accurate. The demonstrators, they basically come from one
:05:10. > :05:13.faction, one political faction, namely the Alsada group. He has
:05:14. > :05:16.turned himself into the member of the Iraqi people, because he sees
:05:17. > :05:22.the opportunity that comes with the fact that Iraq, with some of the
:05:23. > :05:27.largest oil reserves in the world currently is ranked as pretty much
:05:28. > :05:33.the most corrupt nation on earth with an unemployment rate that has
:05:34. > :05:39.risen to almost 35%. It has millions of people added to the list of those
:05:40. > :05:42.living in poverty, just I think almost 3 million new Iraqis joining
:05:43. > :05:52.the list of those living in absolute poverty. This is the reason people
:05:53. > :05:57.are furious. -- Al-Sadr. You said Al-Sadr claims to champion the cause
:05:58. > :06:05.of the people. Let's not forget that he has a view ministers, three,
:06:06. > :06:09.sometimes four, and every Cabinet that has been formed in Iraq after
:06:10. > :06:14.the fall of the regime, although he cannot blame others and not accept
:06:15. > :06:21.responsibility himself -- few ministers. As a matter of fact, I
:06:22. > :06:24.recall very well in the second cabinet of Mr Maliki, almost six
:06:25. > :06:30.years ago, he insisted on being given all the ministries that deal
:06:31. > :06:34.or that provide services directly to the people, that is the ministry of
:06:35. > :06:40.the musicality, the ministry of housing, the ministry of industry
:06:41. > :06:45.and so on -- municipality. And before that they have the Ministry
:06:46. > :06:48.of Health. So, to claim that others have been responsible for the
:06:49. > :06:55.conditions of the country, I don't think it is fair. Well, let's not
:06:56. > :06:58.get hung up on different ministers accusing each other of
:06:59. > :07:01.responsibility, let's stick with you, if I can, and your
:07:02. > :07:08.responsibility, because you were the minister of oil from 2006 - 2010,
:07:09. > :07:14.Deputy PM from then until 2014, one of the closest to Maliki, so you
:07:15. > :07:20.have to accept responsibility for the fact that during those years
:07:21. > :07:23.there was a scale of corruption inside the Iraqi government that
:07:24. > :07:33.frankly no nation on earth can write. Do you accept responsibility?
:07:34. > :07:38.I accept responsibility for the portfolios I have been responsible
:07:39. > :07:49.for -- rival. Namely, minister of oil between 2006 and 2010, and I am
:07:50. > :07:54.very proud of the rounds in which we invited the oil companies in a
:07:55. > :08:04.transparent process, in offering them the development of our
:08:05. > :08:11.oilfields, service contracts, that have kept the oil produced in the
:08:12. > :08:18.country for the nation, and that has offered the oil companies the lowest
:08:19. > :08:20.remuneration sees anywhere else among oil producing companies. The
:08:21. > :08:27.fact that Iraq is producing almost 4 million barrels per day today,
:08:28. > :08:31.despite the oil prices, which the country cannot be responsible for,
:08:32. > :08:37.that is supply and demand in the world oil market, so all those
:08:38. > :08:41.developments in the oil sector has been during the period that I have
:08:42. > :08:45.run that particular ministry. But Doctor Al-Shahristani, the question
:08:46. > :08:50.is, if I can, what happened to the vast sums of money, revenues of that
:08:51. > :08:54.came in from the oil sector? No one doubts Iraq has ramped up
:08:55. > :08:59.production. No one doubts in that period from 2006 -2014 when you were
:09:00. > :09:02.responsible as oil minister and Deputy Prime Minister that huge
:09:03. > :09:09.muscle money was coming in, but what happened? Let me quote you Adil Nuri
:09:10. > :09:12.from the Iraqi integrity commission, charged with looking into this
:09:13. > :09:18.rampant corruption. He says as much as half a trillion, half a trillion
:09:19. > :09:26.dollars in funds from the government coffers, mostly oil revenue, have
:09:27. > :09:31.systematically disappeared during those Maliki years. What happened to
:09:32. > :09:37.that money? Well, first of all, you should know, and, well, I am not
:09:38. > :09:40.surprised you asked that question, because most people don't realise
:09:41. > :09:47.that the oil revenues don't come to the ministry of oil at all. We
:09:48. > :09:52.produce and export oil but we don't receive at the ministry of oil...
:09:53. > :09:57.(CROSSTALK). As minister of oil you take a little interest in the money.
:09:58. > :10:02.Absolutely. I was going to reply to that. So, the money did not come to
:10:03. > :10:05.the ministry of oil, to be responsible directly for the
:10:06. > :10:08.disbursement, it goes to the ministry of finance, and the
:10:09. > :10:12.ministry of finance has an annual budget that is approved by the
:10:13. > :10:15.parliament, distributed to the various ministries, and the minister
:10:16. > :10:21.of oil was always complaining that we are not getting enough to develop
:10:22. > :10:28.the oil resources because money was disbursed for various projects. To
:10:29. > :10:30.claim that $500 million has disappeared is utterly untrue. Let
:10:31. > :10:39.me give you another quote from someone I am sure you know,
:10:40. > :10:43.Al-Djibouri, looking into the misuse of public money, he says we have
:10:44. > :10:49.paid out $1 billion for warplanes that never arrived, there have been
:10:50. > :10:52.budget painful courthouses that were never built in Al-Shahristani, the
:10:53. > :11:00.same with road projects all over the country, and at the port near Basra,
:11:01. > :11:03.basically a specific list of corrupt practices involving public monies
:11:04. > :11:10.that never went to the public projects they were supposed to --
:11:11. > :11:14.Tikrit. From 2010 to 3014 you were the Vice Prime Minister. How could
:11:15. > :11:19.you among other senior figures in the government continue to allow
:11:20. > :11:25.this to happen? -- 2014. Well, first of all, those projects you mentioned
:11:26. > :11:32.were not under my supervision. But the same person that you just
:11:33. > :11:37.called, Mr Djibouri, and I wish you could check that interview, he
:11:38. > :11:44.himself had claimed at one of his interviews that he has been
:11:45. > :11:48.corrupt, he has accepted bribes and he has accused others of the same
:11:49. > :11:53.thing. Let's get very personal. You will be more aware than me that in
:11:54. > :11:57.the last few days and weeks that has been a huge focus on you personally
:11:58. > :12:03.because of a series of allegations made by the Huffington Post and the
:12:04. > :12:06.Fairfax media group, who conducted an investigation based on leaked
:12:07. > :12:13.documents, which appeared to show that a Monaco -based oil services
:12:14. > :12:19.company, Una Oil, had corrupt relations with a series of Iraqi
:12:20. > :12:26.officials, including you. Well, I am aware of that Huffington Post report
:12:27. > :12:32.and they have also quoted me saying that I have never heard of the
:12:33. > :12:39.person that they claim they have access to his e-mail exchange, that
:12:40. > :12:42.someone working at Unaoil... -- Unaoil. I told the Hartington Post
:12:43. > :12:46.and the integrity commission that I have never heard of the person until
:12:47. > :12:50.his name was mentioned in the Huffington Post article. I have
:12:51. > :12:55.never met him. I have never communicated with him. I have never
:12:56. > :12:59.known of his activities at all. I totally deny having had any dealing
:13:00. > :13:07.with him or having received a single dollar from him or from anybody else
:13:08. > :13:11.in my capacity as either minister of oil, deputy Prime Minister or the
:13:12. > :13:16.minister of higher education. And I am actually calling on the
:13:17. > :13:29.authorities in Monaco, where Unaoil is based, in France, in Australia,
:13:30. > :13:37.in Britain and also in the States to make any available information or
:13:38. > :13:42.evidence to our integrity commission in Baghdad. Let pick up on a couple
:13:43. > :13:46.of those points, if I can. First of all, Unaoil have strongly denied
:13:47. > :13:50.allegations that they were bribing and offering inducements to official
:13:51. > :13:54.such as yourself. They say it is baseless and false. But coming back
:13:55. > :13:58.to what the media group, Fairfax media and Huffington Post,
:13:59. > :14:02.presented, they had leaked documents which purported to show that such
:14:03. > :14:08.was the relationship between the company and you that you even had a
:14:09. > :14:11.codename. You were codenamed Teacher. Now, are you telling me
:14:12. > :14:14.that all this detail, there are hundreds and hundreds of pages of
:14:15. > :14:20.this stuff, all of it is entirely false? Yes, absolutely, Stephen. Let
:14:21. > :14:24.us stick to the facts. What the Huffington Post is saying, that they
:14:25. > :14:29.have access to e-mails between two individuals... All I can ask, it is
:14:30. > :14:35.fairly simple, given the allegations around you and amounts the of money
:14:36. > :14:38.involved, millions of dollars, allegedly, are you prepared to open
:14:39. > :14:44.up all of your own personal and family bank accounts and financial
:14:45. > :14:48.records, not just in Iraq but overseas perhaps as well, just to
:14:49. > :14:53.tell the Iraqi public what you are worth?
:14:54. > :14:59.Absolutely. I have made that statement the second day when the
:15:00. > :15:03.report was published and called on the integrity commission in Baghdad
:15:04. > :15:09.to investigate all my bank accounts in Baghdad and elsewhere. I have
:15:10. > :15:15.given them the account numbers. I have given them a list of all the
:15:16. > :15:18.properties I own in Iraq. It is very obvious and clear because they have
:15:19. > :15:26.all the records. I have even given them the address of the house that I
:15:27. > :15:33.own in London, which I bought and mortgaged in the year 2000, before
:15:34. > :15:39.the regime change in 2003 and I am still paying the mortgage in London
:15:40. > :15:42.on that property. All right. Well listen, we have probably pushed as
:15:43. > :15:46.far as we can into the details of your financial records and the Iraqi
:15:47. > :15:51.people will ultimately take a view as to whether... I am glad that you
:15:52. > :15:55.did. I have never seen you so hostile in an interview, but I am
:15:56. > :15:59.glad that you did and I would like your audience to know that the only
:16:00. > :16:04.thing I own outside Iraq is a house that I bought in London when I was a
:16:05. > :16:10.refugee there on mortgage. I bought it in 2000 and I'm still paying the
:16:11. > :16:16.mortgage on that house where my family was living when we were
:16:17. > :16:21.there. Let me ask you, if I may... It is the only thing I'm hurt it for
:16:22. > :16:24.my father. Let me ask you a more general question. We have gone into
:16:25. > :16:29.the personal situation and, let's broaden it out. This is something
:16:30. > :16:32.that the former Prime Minister senior figure in Iraq said about
:16:33. > :16:38.this question of corruption recently. He said this is
:16:39. > :16:41.existential. There are organised corruption syndicates running Iraq
:16:42. > :16:48.today. Never mind the militias, he said. And I tell you very frankly,
:16:49. > :16:52.no Iraqi power can take action on this. Do you feel as helpless in the
:16:53. > :16:58.face of corruption as he appears to? No I am not as a matter of
:16:59. > :17:03.fact. I think the integrity commission has the power
:17:04. > :17:12.responsibility to investigate any individual. They should do their
:17:13. > :17:19.job. The Iraqi people demand to know who of the government services or
:17:20. > :17:26.ministers have actually accumulated any wealth. And I'm actually calling
:17:27. > :17:32.on the Iraqi government to activate a very old law from the Times of the
:17:33. > :17:37.monarchy that says that any individual that has taken up a
:17:38. > :17:46.public job, such as a minister or public servant, should be held
:17:47. > :17:50.accountable to explain where did he get his wealth from? How much did he
:17:51. > :17:56.own before he took the public office and how much is he worth now? The
:17:57. > :17:59.Prime Minister is committed to creating a new cabinet of what he
:18:00. > :18:05.calls technocrats who won't be committed to militias or parties who
:18:06. > :18:11.he says will clean up Iraq in terms of the corruption. Do you believe
:18:12. > :18:22.that, yes or no? Well, I wish he could do that. But to claim that
:18:23. > :18:28.these technocrats are free of the militias or political groups is an
:18:29. > :18:38.overstatement because some of them have been nominated by themselves.
:18:39. > :18:42.You are 99% depended on the oil revenues to support her government,
:18:43. > :18:46.you have a massive fiscal deficit. Because of the oil price crash, you
:18:47. > :18:52.are basically running out of money. How close to collapse is the Iraqi
:18:53. > :18:58.government and its finances? Well, the oil prices when they declined
:18:59. > :19:07.from $100 per barrel to almost $25, we were hit very hard by that
:19:08. > :19:12.decline in revenue. But this was in January and in February, still the
:19:13. > :19:18.country managed to pay the salaries of the civil servants, to pay the
:19:19. > :19:27.pensioners and to pay the Social Security. In total, about 7 million
:19:28. > :19:33.Iraqis are paid by the government. That has got to change, doesn't it
:19:34. > :19:37.Doctor Shahristani? You can't run a country went 7 million out of 22 -23
:19:38. > :19:41.million people are on the government payroll. I'm wondering why in all
:19:42. > :19:45.your time in office, I am not blaming you for everything, but you
:19:46. > :19:47.happens to be a very senior figure. Why didn't the government
:19:48. > :19:56.fundamentally reform and restructure the economy? Well, I have been in
:19:57. > :20:04.the forefront of people and I have been calling for this since 2008 as
:20:05. > :20:10.a matter of fact, in the first government, I was pointing out
:20:11. > :20:17.employing such a large number of civil servants is not very healthy.
:20:18. > :20:20.The public sector, to control the whole economy, as it used to do
:20:21. > :20:25.under the previous regime, was not a very healthy way of running the
:20:26. > :20:34.economy of the country. And this has been my position consistently. But
:20:35. > :20:40.various cabinets and so on tried to please the public by and owing more
:20:41. > :20:44.people. We must end by reflecting on the military situation and the
:20:45. > :20:50.conflict with the so-called Islamic State, which still holds much Iraqi
:20:51. > :20:55.territory including the second most important city, the second biggest
:20:56. > :20:59.city in the country, most all. In your view, is the Iraqi government
:21:00. > :21:02.with all the chaos and economic problems in any position to
:21:03. > :21:10.undertake a full on assault to retake most soul this year? Yes, I
:21:11. > :21:16.believe the Iraqi people and the Iraqi army and the mobilization
:21:17. > :21:21.forces and the tribal units are all totally committed to free their
:21:22. > :21:29.country and liberate their people from ISIS. Despite all this
:21:30. > :21:35.political turmoil and accusations and the internal fights in the
:21:36. > :21:43.parliament and so on. This has not affected, so far, our efforts to
:21:44. > :21:59.fight ISIS and liberate important towns like Ramadi and other villages
:22:00. > :22:03.set both of Mosley. I go to the frontlines quite frequently and
:22:04. > :22:07.fighting spirit and the morale of our fighting forces are extremely
:22:08. > :22:13.high. Really? Is it not the truth that you are very, very reliant
:22:14. > :22:17.right now on support aid from Iran and also from the other sort of
:22:18. > :22:22.direction, from the United States? The Pentagon just announced the US
:22:23. > :22:27.troop level in Iraq has gone beyond 4000 and that is not including
:22:28. > :22:31.covert special forces. The Americans pulled out a few years ago and now
:22:32. > :22:35.they are pouring back in and frankly, you can't in the Iraqi
:22:36. > :22:40.government, conduct any military operations now without the Iranians
:22:41. > :22:45.and the US offering you material support. This is true. Iran is
:22:46. > :22:55.offering a lot of material support. The United States is conducting
:22:56. > :23:00.Erraid Davies against ISIS positions -- air raids. These are all very
:23:01. > :23:05.important in the fight but it is also true that there is not a single
:23:06. > :23:10.soldier, American or Iranian, fighting alongside the Iraqi forces
:23:11. > :23:15.on the front lines. The war is being conducted all by Iraqis. But yes
:23:16. > :23:21.there is support from Iran in the United States and for that matter,
:23:22. > :23:26.from other countries. There is training, ammunition, other military
:23:27. > :23:31.supplies and military advisors. Is this the year there is going to
:23:32. > :23:39.be... Is this a make or break year for Iraq? I cannot answer that
:23:40. > :23:45.question. The Prime Minister has promised the Iraqi people that Mosul
:23:46. > :23:51.will be liberated before the end of this year. I wish him all success in
:23:52. > :23:55.that, to deliver on that promise. We have to end there. Doctor
:23:56. > :23:58.Shahristani, thank you for joining me from Baghdad. Thank you for
:23:59. > :24:04.having me.