:00:00. > :00:00.He warned the country could return to all-out war.
:00:00. > :00:00.A surge of violence there has claimed close
:00:00. > :00:14.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:15. > :00:17.In recent years, there has been plenty of heated debate
:00:18. > :00:19.about the relationship between Islam and extremism.
:00:20. > :00:24.Much of the fiercest commentary has come from outside the religion,
:00:25. > :00:26.but increasingly there have been calls for change
:00:27. > :00:36.My guest has one of the most controversial voices
:00:37. > :00:40.Raheel Raza is a Pakistan-born Canadian human rights
:00:41. > :00:42.activist who co-founded the Muslim Reform Movement.
:00:43. > :01:23.Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. You to talk her language?
:01:24. > :01:30.Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. You use the language of war. A couple of
:01:31. > :01:30.years ago, you wrote Canada is under attack for.
:01:31. > :01:40.Is the enemy? The enemy is the radical extremists, the jihadist
:01:41. > :01:45.is, who have declared war against the West. It is not just me saying
:01:46. > :01:55.it. You have Islamic State, Taliban, they have said they are
:01:56. > :01:58.against Western values and they will destroy it the West any way they
:01:59. > :02:01.can. We have seen the results of that, or you have to do is take a
:02:02. > :02:08.look at what has happened across the world from Madrid to Brussels to
:02:09. > :02:15.Ottawa, it's all there. San Bernardino. There was a time when we
:02:16. > :02:19.were sitting and working on the Muslim reform movement, the night
:02:20. > :02:22.that San Bernardino happened. The interesting thing is that you talk
:02:23. > :02:27.as if there are not just a few hundred hard-core man and possibly
:02:28. > :02:36.women, you talk as though this is an enemy which incorporates anyone who
:02:37. > :02:44.is a believer in political Islam, Sharia Law. You seem to believe that
:02:45. > :02:48.all of those Muslims are the enemy. What I have said and what I believe
:02:49. > :02:54.is that political Islam is the Allaby, that's why we call it ism
:02:55. > :03:03.ism. Opposed to spiritual Islam, it is the difference between the Islam
:03:04. > :03:06.of other and extreme Islam -- the enemy. Political Islam has a
:03:07. > :03:11.purpose, that purpose is to Germany over the rest of the world. The
:03:12. > :03:16.language of political Islam is embedded with terrorist propaganda,
:03:17. > :03:21.you have said? It is. You just have to connect the dots to see that this
:03:22. > :03:31.is what they have used. They have used violence as their tool to force
:03:32. > :03:38.it on not just Muslims Muslims as well. What about the Somali born
:03:39. > :03:45.writer and industry says, Islamic violence, that is what she calls it,
:03:46. > :03:50.not Islamist violence but Islamic violence, is rooted not in social,
:03:51. > :03:55.economic or political conditions or even in our, but rather in the very
:03:56. > :04:03.foundation text of Islam itself? I don't agree. On some issues, she is
:04:04. > :04:13.absolutely on the dot. We come from two different places. She is an ex-
:04:14. > :04:17.Muslim, I am a Muslim and I want to bring about change from within. I
:04:18. > :04:23.believe that political Islam is an ideology that has been rated on the
:04:24. > :04:36.backs of billions of dollars going to be what hubby side. These are a
:04:37. > :04:40.danger to spiritual Islam -- Wahabi. I would say she is maybe
:04:41. > :04:44.more honest than you. She has lived away from the fate of her family and
:04:45. > :04:52.wrote a book called heretic. She no longer writes as a Muslim. You claim
:04:53. > :04:57.you are, but the words you issue suggest to me that you have the most
:04:58. > :05:02.fundamental problems with the faith that you say you adhere to? I have
:05:03. > :05:07.problems with Muslims, not with Islam. I have problems with the way
:05:08. > :05:13.Muslims interpret, understand and implement their faith in their
:05:14. > :05:17.lives. I am a follower of my face, so yes, there are questions and we
:05:18. > :05:21.evolved to a point where we need to look at our scripture and faith and
:05:22. > :05:27.decide that there is some stuff we need to leave behind. How well do
:05:28. > :05:32.you know the scripture and the Koran? As I understand it you are
:05:33. > :05:37.educated in Catholic school in Pakistan. To get deep into what
:05:38. > :05:43.Islam is and what it should be, do you not need to be extraordinarily
:05:44. > :05:51.well-placed in the scriptures and the Koran? One does not have to be a
:05:52. > :05:57.Koran scholar to read it and understand it. There are many
:05:58. > :06:01.understandings. There are many readings which give the historical
:06:02. > :06:04.context. I think that one of the biggest problems for Muslims and
:06:05. > :06:10.more Muslims is trying to understand the crime without historical context
:06:11. > :06:15.and appreciating that it is not in the chronological order. It's not an
:06:16. > :06:17.easy book to read. When you talk about Sharia Law, you are confident
:06:18. > :06:25.that you can hold your own, theologically speaking, with the
:06:26. > :06:28.lead scholars in Cairo, one of the great institutions of Islamic
:06:29. > :06:35.scholarship? Absolutely not. As I said I am not in Islamic scholar.
:06:36. > :06:42.When Sharia is mentioned in the Koran, it is referring to ethical
:06:43. > :06:47.and moral guidance. In our Muslim reform movement and as our
:06:48. > :06:50.organisation is facing, we don't want Sharia as a form of government
:06:51. > :06:58.is living in the West. Muslims have not been able to quite figure out
:06:59. > :07:02.what it is. I guess the question I am asking is one of credibility. Do
:07:03. > :07:06.you think for most Muslims around the world, you and your message
:07:07. > :07:17.carries real depth and credibility? That is hard to say. They have to
:07:18. > :07:22.decide. I know that I am credible. The Islam I see today is not the
:07:23. > :07:31.Islam I grew up with. I grew up in an Islam that was compassionate,
:07:32. > :07:35.merciful and different. I have seen it go downhill and I have seen how
:07:36. > :07:40.he it has been politicised. This is not rocket science. We see it in our
:07:41. > :07:43.everyday life. You talk of diversity, it strikes me that there
:07:44. > :07:48.is diversity within political Islam. You told me that as far as you're
:07:49. > :07:52.concerned, political Islam is the problem. I have reported from many
:07:53. > :07:57.different will some countries and met many branches of political
:07:58. > :08:02.Islam. I am thinking of my conversations in commuter, a man who
:08:03. > :08:09.held the reins of power after the Arab Spring. He was committed to
:08:10. > :08:14.Sharia, but while he was leading Tunisia did not impose his will on
:08:15. > :08:20.the nation undemocratically -- Tunisia. When the voice of the
:08:21. > :08:25.people was that they no longer wanted him in power, he left. The
:08:26. > :08:29.key word that use was in position. We don't want imposition of anyone
:08:30. > :08:40.on the way they practise their faith. 1.7 billion Muslims practice
:08:41. > :08:44.their faith today, in some ways there are 1.7 billion forms of
:08:45. > :08:48.practising the faith. In the public square, that is where it counts. We
:08:49. > :08:52.don't want to impose our version of Islam on anyone else. This is what
:08:53. > :09:00.is happening through this packaged Islam which is being exported
:09:01. > :09:06.through the Muslim brotherhood. But you are stereotyping to. You use
:09:07. > :09:08.this phrase recently which struck me as extraordinarily stereotyping. He
:09:09. > :09:15.talked about the Muslim reform movement sending a message to
:09:16. > :09:22.generation Jihad. That is putting on a label to an entire generation of
:09:23. > :09:28.Muslims. It is suggesting to them that they need to move into the 21st
:09:29. > :09:33.century. The Muslim reform movement says that Muslims would like to come
:09:34. > :09:37.into the 21st century as opposed to living under a caliphate in the
:09:38. > :09:41.seventh century. It's a message to our youth, they are the future of
:09:42. > :09:46.tomorrow. They are the ones are being radicalised to fight with
:09:47. > :09:51.Islamic State. Obviously they are getting ideas from somewhere. The
:09:52. > :09:55.Muslim movement wants to further this, it has a declaration that says
:09:56. > :09:59.that this is what we are looking at if we want a reform. We want to
:10:00. > :10:04.reform the way Muslims implement and practice their faith. We're not
:10:05. > :10:09.looking to reform the faith itself. We are not looking to reform Islam.
:10:10. > :10:13.That is why it is called the Muslim reform movement. You say we are not
:10:14. > :10:18.looking to impose, simply to develop a new way of thinking. You are
:10:19. > :10:26.Canadian, you have been for a long time. I assume you embrace the
:10:27. > :10:32.values of Canada, including tolerance, openness, free
:10:33. > :10:37.expression, democracy? Yes. If you don't mind me saying, you appear to
:10:38. > :10:43.be personally extraordinarily intolerant of certain forms of
:10:44. > :10:51.expression inside Canada today. I would say that one should always be
:10:52. > :11:00.intolerant of hate, wouldn't you? Not talking about hate, talking
:11:01. > :11:03.about the full face veil. Some Muslim women want to wear this, just
:11:04. > :11:10.as they do in other nations. You have declared that it is entirely
:11:11. > :11:15.unacceptable and Canada must ban it? It was actually originally Jack
:11:16. > :11:24.Straw who put the cat among the pigeons. Yes, I did a lot of
:11:25. > :11:34.research and study on it and I suggested it to the government. I
:11:35. > :11:42.wanted it banned. The push for it is not because it is a religious act
:11:43. > :11:48.requirement that it is not a religious requirement. It is freedom
:11:49. > :11:50.of expression. The people who want where wear at our defenders of
:11:51. > :11:57.freedom of expression and human rights. This is a fundamental
:11:58. > :12:03.question of freedom. It is nothing to do with religion. When we wave
:12:04. > :12:08.these freedoms against the safety and security of the country, it is a
:12:09. > :12:13.safety issue. A health issue. A communication issue. We studied this
:12:14. > :12:19.and wrote a letter with five points to the previous government, who then
:12:20. > :12:26.banned it at citizenship ceremonies. The later government would act on
:12:27. > :12:33.that. This is what a democracy is about, to express a concern and have
:12:34. > :12:38.debate and discussion about what is best for the country and community.
:12:39. > :12:46.Do you worry that you are inadvertently fuelling a form of
:12:47. > :12:50.racism? It has been said that this is nothing to do with gender
:12:51. > :12:55.equality, and everything to do with racism. How are you liberating women
:12:56. > :13:05.by criminalising their clothing? This existed before the niqab issue
:13:06. > :13:09.was on the table. I don't think what I say or do fuels racism and
:13:10. > :13:15.bigotry. What fuels that is when Muslims don't address the issues
:13:16. > :13:18.head on. In Canada, more than 52% of Canadians that they don't like the
:13:19. > :13:25.face coverage and consider it a mask. That is what average Canadians
:13:26. > :13:29.are saying. If it is not brought out to the public, that is when people
:13:30. > :13:36.have a knee-jerk reaction. It is no good quoting the polling evidence
:13:37. > :13:43.about what a majority of Canadian people think, there is such a thing
:13:44. > :13:47.as the tyranny of majority. The whole essence of arguments about
:13:48. > :13:51.freedom is defence of the minority. The few Muslim women in Canada who
:13:52. > :13:56.want of way a niqab, they should have that right. If the Canadians
:13:57. > :14:02.are you. It is, but a Canadian value is also accountability and the
:14:03. > :14:06.safety and security of Canada comes first. This is the main issue that
:14:07. > :14:12.we are talking about. The problem with arguing about security, we have
:14:13. > :14:15.seen this in the United States recently with the declarations of
:14:16. > :14:19.Donald Trump, you can use the security arguments to develop all
:14:20. > :14:24.sorts of propositions which appear to undermine freedoms. You are going
:14:25. > :14:27.in that direction yourself, you have argued for restrictions on
:14:28. > :14:31.immigration from what you call Kheira producing countries. Can you
:14:32. > :14:44.define and? A country where Muslims live. So
:14:45. > :14:50.Muslim nations at her producing countries. Not all, but in Pakistan
:14:51. > :14:54.I know there are training camps for radicals and I know for a fact that
:14:55. > :14:58.there are Canadian youth who have gone and taken training and have
:14:59. > :15:01.gone back. So this is not something that is rocket science. We know for
:15:02. > :15:05.a fact that there are some countries in which there are training for
:15:06. > :15:10.radicals taking place. To be clear about it, you want your own
:15:11. > :15:14.government in Canada to put on moratorium on all immigration from
:15:15. > :15:18.Muslim countries. Until they can sort out the problem. So you have to
:15:19. > :15:20.understand that with the work we do both with security and with the
:15:21. > :15:24.government we have to understand that that extremists and jihadist
:15:25. > :15:28.are not living outside the western countries, they are right there as
:15:29. > :15:32.well. And they have come as emigrants, maybe, or as visitors.
:15:33. > :15:38.What we need to do is clean up what is happening inside and moratoria
:15:39. > :15:42.means not ban but just temporarily. Well, it is a band, it is a band for
:15:43. > :15:45.a limited amount of time which you have refused to be fine. You are
:15:46. > :15:51.sounding an awful lot like Donald Trump. Do you embrace that
:15:52. > :15:54.comparison? No, but in a different way. He has a cruel way of saying it
:15:55. > :15:59.but I guess I would stand behind what I would say, that we do need to
:16:00. > :16:03.do that. We need to do that... Do you think that would for one second
:16:04. > :16:07.stand up in a Canadian court of law? The notion of banning all
:16:08. > :16:12.immigration from Muslim nations? I'm not trying to make that a legal
:16:13. > :16:17.issue. Canada is a country of laws, where the independence of the courts
:16:18. > :16:21.as one of the most central pillars pillars of your democracy. I put
:16:22. > :16:24.this idea out so we can debate this in public. Maybe in a democracy they
:16:25. > :16:29.will decide it is not good for Canada and that is fine. I am not a
:16:30. > :16:32.government official, I am not a policymaker, I am a grassroots
:16:33. > :16:35.activist. My job is to light a fire under the feet of our leaders in our
:16:36. > :16:41.religious leaders to bring about change. The current status quo is
:16:42. > :16:43.not something that I want my future generations of children and
:16:44. > :16:47.grandchildren to live with. But lighting fires is a dangerous
:16:48. > :16:53.activity, because you end up burning things, perhaps things of value,
:16:54. > :16:55.including trusts. Another of your propositions, close all mosques for
:16:56. > :17:01.three months to have intense scrutiny on the Imams and their
:17:02. > :17:04.sermons. This you say is not an abuse of religious freedom, it is
:17:05. > :17:09.simply to ensure that religion can be free. Again, would that stand up
:17:10. > :17:15.for a moment in a Canadian court of law? Perhaps if push comes to shove
:17:16. > :17:20.it might. We have gone to mosques and heard hate speech there, we have
:17:21. > :17:24.gone to mosques and her... But not all mosques, you are suggesting
:17:25. > :17:28.closing all mosques for three months just because one or two have had
:17:29. > :17:34.Imams preaching... It is not one or two. It is much more than one or two
:17:35. > :17:38.back. Let us acknowledge that many of the messages of disloyalty, many
:17:39. > :17:42.of the messages of hate, have come from the mosque pulpit and from
:17:43. > :17:46.Islamic institutions are so closing a mosque for three months is not a
:17:47. > :17:50.problem. For Muslims, they don't have to go and pray in the mosque.
:17:51. > :17:56.They can offer their five-time sprayers, anywhere, any time, any
:17:57. > :17:59.place. But in the United Kingdom and many other countries there is a
:18:00. > :18:03.similar debate about how best to work with Muslim communities, to
:18:04. > :18:10.ensure that extremism, where it is present, is rooted out. Do you think
:18:11. > :18:14.that your approach is going to build bridges, is going to reach out and
:18:15. > :18:20.win the confidence of Muslim communities, or is it simply going
:18:21. > :18:24.to foster mistrust and even hatred? You will be surprised to know how
:18:25. > :18:29.many Muslims actually follow what I say, and are part of this movement.
:18:30. > :18:32.They are interested in bringing about change, and if it means
:18:33. > :18:38.closing mosques for three months it is not the end of the world. It may
:18:39. > :18:41.solve the problem. Really? Tell me, how many Muslims in Canada have
:18:42. > :18:48.responded positively to the idea that all mosques be closed for three
:18:49. > :18:52.months. Dozens have! Darzins? There are many millions of Muslims in
:18:53. > :18:58.Canada, so doesn't have supported you. I don't do a poll after what I
:18:59. > :19:02.write, I don't do a poll after what -- to see what was and is about it.
:19:03. > :19:06.There is too much work to do in exposing the ideology of the
:19:07. > :19:09.Islamist rule. They are growing faster than we are whereas we are in
:19:10. > :19:13.a situation where we can't even use the terminology that this is
:19:14. > :19:17.stemming from some form of the misuse of the faith. So we have to
:19:18. > :19:22.have the dialogue. We have had the discussion. And that is what I do,
:19:23. > :19:25.is put it out there so we can have this conversation. Well, you put it
:19:26. > :19:30.out there and you say that you want to light fires. I just wonder how
:19:31. > :19:33.effective it is. One other issue which you have made a big stand on
:19:34. > :19:36.and which again I would like to hear whether you feel it has been at
:19:37. > :19:42.effective, is your insistence that in your version of a reformed
:19:43. > :19:45.Islam, women should be free to preach in the mosque, and indeed
:19:46. > :19:50.they should be free to preach not just to women but the mixed groups
:19:51. > :19:52.as well, essentially to get rid of gender demarcation inside the
:19:53. > :19:59.mosque. You have on occasion preach to yourself to mixed groups. Do you
:20:00. > :20:04.have any leveraged for your message, do you think? Yes. Everything that I
:20:05. > :20:07.do and everything that I did has a reason for it. I led the mixed
:20:08. > :20:12.gender pray not because I want to become an Imam or take over the job
:20:13. > :20:15.of an Imam, I did it because there was an appalling lack of gender
:20:16. > :20:18.equality in the mosques. It was a men's club. The women were relegated
:20:19. > :20:21.to the basement and sometimes if there was they couldn't even come
:20:22. > :20:25.and pray there so the message was to come and say that we are spiritually
:20:26. > :20:31.equal. This is what my faith tells me. And it did have an effect. A
:20:32. > :20:34.month after I led the prayers, the mosque, two mosques, put out
:20:35. > :20:36.statements and press releases saying they would look into this gender
:20:37. > :20:40.issue and they would make sure that women can come into the main
:20:41. > :20:44.section. Today there is a women's only mosque in Copenhagen, there is
:20:45. > :20:48.right here in London, there is one in Los Angeles and when I get the
:20:49. > :20:54.funding I hope to have one in Canada. So there is a role over a
:20:55. > :20:59.sect, there may be a knee-jerk reaction to begin with, but in the
:21:00. > :21:03.end people talk about it and there is change. Nobody could accuse you
:21:04. > :21:07.of not taking these issues head on and challenging Muslims around the
:21:08. > :21:10.world, and you have taken your movement from Canada into an
:21:11. > :21:16.international context. But it comes at a price. There are people who
:21:17. > :21:20.want to shut you up. Of course. How frightened you feel by some of the
:21:21. > :21:25.reaction you get? I don't think about it. And the irony is that when
:21:26. > :21:29.they call with death threats or calling me to profess how much they
:21:30. > :21:33.hate me, they never leave a phone number where I could call them back
:21:34. > :21:39.to have a debate or a discussion. Have you had death threats? Yes, I
:21:40. > :21:42.have had a death threat. Have you talked to the police about these
:21:43. > :21:51.things? The police in Canada know about it. I have a fatwa. Who issued
:21:52. > :21:55.a fatwa? Saudi cleric. Is incredible? Here you seem to be
:21:56. > :22:00.smiling at me and suggesting you can live with this but we know from
:22:01. > :22:04.Salman Rushdie and others as well that went fatwas are issued they are
:22:05. > :22:09.serious business. Here is the difference, it is all about the
:22:10. > :22:13.money. The fatwa on Salman Rushdie's had comes on the back a
:22:14. > :22:17.lot of money. Mine is just people calling and saying they don't like
:22:18. > :22:22.me and if they want to me, and get rid of me and bury me, they can't
:22:23. > :22:32.bury the issues. -- if they want to kill me. You said that in 2014 you
:22:33. > :22:37.are the -- I have the honour of receiving a fatwa. I plan to become
:22:38. > :22:43.number one in the world. You are loving this, in a way. It is OK, it
:22:44. > :22:47.is there. I may as well embrace it. I'm not going to stop saying what I
:22:48. > :22:51.do, I'm not going to stop writing what I do. I want to push the
:22:52. > :22:55.envelope so Muslims all over the world can start talking about these
:22:56. > :23:01.issues. They don't have to like what they say. I gave up being popular a
:23:02. > :23:04.long time ago. What I want to do is follow Truth and Justice which is
:23:05. > :23:10.what my faith tells me to do and let people work it out. You are
:23:11. > :23:15.ultimately still Muslim. Unlike others, you remain inside the faith.
:23:16. > :23:18.Do you not worry that as more and more politicians and activists, many
:23:19. > :23:23.on the far right, it has to be said, talk about Muslims in the way that
:23:24. > :23:28.you have talked about political Islam, connecting all the time to
:23:29. > :23:33.terrorism, do you not worry that there is a significant rise in a
:23:34. > :23:36.phobia, we have seen it in the United Kingdom, we have seen it in
:23:37. > :23:44.France, you could be accused of fostering that yourself. -- rise in
:23:45. > :23:47.Islam phobia. I believe it is not just about speaking to the
:23:48. > :23:50.converted. I speak in places where there is a lot of hate against
:23:51. > :23:54.bosoms and I think when they hear us and speak out it changes the
:23:55. > :23:58.dynamics and therefore I prefer to keep on speaking. Yes, there is
:23:59. > :24:03.racism and bigotry. I do not deny that. It existed before 9/11, it
:24:04. > :24:08.exists now, and we have to tackle it head on. It is a terrible thing to
:24:09. > :24:12.have racism and bigotry. However, what I say does not necessarily
:24:13. > :24:16.found the flames of racism because people appreciate Muslims speaking
:24:17. > :24:23.out about the reality of the issues. We have two end there. Raheel Raza,
:24:24. > :24:27.thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. My pleasure. Thank you
:24:28. > :24:30.very much indeed.