:00:12. > :00:14.Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur.
:00:15. > :00:17.There are few more thankless tasks in world politics than being
:00:18. > :00:20.Vladimir Putin's approval ratings continue to defy gravity,
:00:21. > :00:23.even in the teeth of a prolonged economic recession.
:00:24. > :00:25.Kremlin opponents are starved of media airtime, routinely harassed
:00:26. > :00:41.Maybe democracy isn't a Russian priority?
:00:42. > :01:15.My guest today is. He is the founder and leader of the Democratic Choice
:01:16. > :01:22.movement. Vladimir Milov, welcome to HARDtalk. It is a pleasure. I just
:01:23. > :01:29.described your job as a thankless task. Do you approach it with a
:01:30. > :01:40.heavy heart? It creates a groom mode sometimes. My co-author was killed
:01:41. > :01:47.last year. --. It is difficult but someone has to do this. I met or is
:01:48. > :01:55.many times. --. He said his phone was bugged and he believed he was
:01:56. > :02:03.followed. He felt insecure. Does your job feel insecure? Absolutely.
:02:04. > :02:07.Many people point out we are under 24/7 surveillance. You have to get
:02:08. > :02:14.used to that. There have been many audiotapes, videotapes, published
:02:15. > :02:20.recently against opposition leaders. You have to get used to it.
:02:21. > :02:26.I can understand why you might be prepared to accept the sacrifices
:02:27. > :02:29.that come with living in an aquarium, the constant surveillance
:02:30. > :02:35.and tension, if you felt you were gaining traction. If you believed
:02:36. > :02:40.you could make it different. But frankly, if you look at Russia
:02:41. > :02:45.today, you and. That is because you need to go beyond the headline. --.
:02:46. > :02:56.Michael Lycian works beyond the ground a lot. -- Michael Lycian. You
:02:57. > :03:02.try, but if it look at the last regional elections last year you
:03:03. > :03:06.fought one particular region, north-east of Moscow, as a
:03:07. > :03:13.democratic alliance, and you did not even cross the 5% threshold to get
:03:14. > :03:19.any seats. It depends how you look at it. This is a region which is
:03:20. > :03:23.twice the size of the Netherlands in terms of territory. We were only
:03:24. > :03:31.given 20 days for campaigning after all the litigation is. --
:03:32. > :03:37.litigations. They tried to ban us originally. We to 4% in the capital
:03:38. > :03:43.city. Give us more time and there are plenty of other examples. This
:03:44. > :03:54.is one of the reasons the government is so anxious to point out this and
:03:55. > :03:59.harass us and watch us. You are telling me a 4% result in one
:04:00. > :04:05.particular region could be regarded as a glass half full. I am looking
:04:06. > :04:11.at different figures, Vladimir Putin's approval rating. At one
:04:12. > :04:18.point last year it was 89%. You can't argue with that. Even the
:04:19. > :04:27.people who posted those figures argue with only 10-15% of this 80%.
:04:28. > :04:35.Hardline supporters say they love him, he is a great leader. The great
:04:36. > :04:45.majority says he is answer tution phenomenon, not as a person they
:04:46. > :04:55.want forever. -- institution the governors of the regions have a
:04:56. > :04:59.lower rating. Bladder Nir Bitton is not the only one governing Russia.
:05:00. > :05:05.It is his government and he is Kremlin. If he is as popular as the
:05:06. > :05:11.figures suggest across Russia you have still got a profound problem.
:05:12. > :05:18.We do. The reality is different from media headlines that he dominates
:05:19. > :05:26.all. He suffered crushing defeats in regional elections. In a way that is
:05:27. > :05:31.the point. He has, at times, looked more bowler bull. I am thinking of
:05:32. > :05:43.late 2011 when there really were a test. -- vulnerable. -- protests.
:05:44. > :05:48.Everyone said that to me but he got it under control. They say he is
:05:49. > :05:55.dominating with no chance of breaking through. I am going on
:05:56. > :06:02.record to say that in a month you will see a lot of trouble. That was
:06:03. > :06:07.five years ago. Five years on you have gone backward. I don't think
:06:08. > :06:18.so. For the first time ever a Russian opposition figure has shown
:06:19. > :06:25.a third of votes in a mayoral election. It was the highest ever in
:06:26. > :06:31.all our history. This is 600,000 votes in Moscow, and enough of a
:06:32. > :06:39.foundation to show you are getting affection in Parliament. Not to
:06:40. > :06:42.mention other results. It isn't as black and white as you are saying. I
:06:43. > :06:48.want to talk about the economy at some length. But before that I want
:06:49. > :06:53.to talk about nationalism. It seems to me that what he has done at a
:06:54. > :06:57.time of great economic difficulty in Russia is successfully cloaked
:06:58. > :07:05.themselves in the garb of nationalism, nationalistic fervour.
:07:06. > :07:12.And Russian people, whether it be in Ukraine, Russia, Chechnya, they buy
:07:13. > :07:19.into him as the defender of national interests. It depends on your
:07:20. > :07:25.perspective. If you watch Russian state media covering Ukraine for ten
:07:26. > :07:28.years extensively, they aren't betraying Russia as an aggressive
:07:29. > :07:34.imperialistic nation that is spreading out nationalistic
:07:35. > :07:39.aspirations. We are shown as saviours and Ukraine is under attack
:07:40. > :07:48.by the others. This is what Russian media is saying. I will say that
:07:49. > :07:51.there is a point, people are infected with nationalistic fervour.
:07:52. > :07:59.But I would say it is singledigit. Russia is not aggressive. -- it is
:08:00. > :08:04.only a few people. I wonder if you are misreading it. Let's talk Grammy
:08:05. > :08:13.us. I suggesting to me that the annexation of Crimea was not a
:08:14. > :08:16.popular move? -- Crimea. It was painted as a priceless move. We can
:08:17. > :08:25.get away with it without consequence. You will see greater
:08:26. > :08:30.numbers of people saying that if we are to pay a big price we should
:08:31. > :08:35.read in the whole issue. That is the reality on the ground. At the danger
:08:36. > :08:38.for your as an opposition leader is that if you come out and say that
:08:39. > :08:44.the annexation of Crimea was wrong and unwise and not in long-term
:08:45. > :08:52.interest you are portrayed as a traitor. -- But. So do you oppose
:08:53. > :09:01.and reject the annexation? I do in the way it was done. Let's not mince
:09:02. > :09:06.words. Yes or no? Absolutely. If you were in power you would hand it
:09:07. > :09:12.back? I reject how it was done. To hand it back takes more than the
:09:13. > :09:16.desire of one man. There is no political opposition in Russia. We
:09:17. > :09:23.have no person that can just hand it back. It takes a process and
:09:24. > :09:26.understanding. Yeah, I understand, and I will take steps to bring the
:09:27. > :09:32.international community in and create a dialogue about the future
:09:33. > :09:37.of Crimea rejected by Putin at the moment. But it is more difficult
:09:38. > :09:42.than that. It sounds like you want to have your cake and it hit. You
:09:43. > :09:49.want to oppose Putin's policy but you want them to go back to Ukraine.
:09:50. > :09:55.-- eat it. It is what I have wanted to do all my life and I have
:09:56. > :09:57.suffered a lot. I wanted economic and political reforms in Russia.
:09:58. > :10:07.Eye-watering never ever, read my lips, let the Crimea question stand
:10:08. > :10:22.between me and between me and reform in Russia. -- I will never -- and
:10:23. > :10:26.reform. But is this an obstacle between you and winning popular
:10:27. > :10:31.support? It is not a problem. The other issue that is a big question
:10:32. > :10:41.you have to deal with with regard to your own people is sanctions imposed
:10:42. > :10:47.by the West and Europe. Do you support the West in its sanctions or
:10:48. > :10:56.do you oppose them? I understand why the West did it. Russia has violated
:10:57. > :10:59.a lot. It is wrong. But I never support direct sanctions against my
:11:00. > :11:06.country but I understand why you do it and Russia should take steps to
:11:07. > :11:11.restore trust. Will that satisfy the Russian people? Your economy is in
:11:12. > :11:15.trouble. It has contracted 4% last year and will contract again this
:11:16. > :11:19.year. The IMF have said that if you look at the sanctions in finance and
:11:20. > :11:25.energy and defence it is costing Russia about 1.5% of national GDP
:11:26. > :11:32.per year. The Russian people will not like you saying you understand
:11:33. > :11:35.why the West is imposing them and you understand why they have to do
:11:36. > :11:45.it. You are misreading signals from Russia. I am referring to official
:11:46. > :11:50.polls. Two thirds of Russians are calling for reconciliation with the
:11:51. > :11:53.West. It doesn't mean they have fallen in love with the United
:11:54. > :12:00.States and Europe. But people, who at the same time support Putin, want
:12:01. > :12:07.a normalisation of relations. This is normal. I wonder. You speak
:12:08. > :12:11.fabulous English. I don't know whether you were educated in the US,
:12:12. > :12:18.but you sound like you have been raised in the West. I wonder if
:12:19. > :12:25.people listening to you talking about getting away from anti-Western
:12:26. > :12:31.bias, when Putin is telling them that Nato has been humiliating
:12:32. > :12:35.Russia for years by moving eastward and challenging their sphere of
:12:36. > :12:40.influence, isn't he striking a chord with the Russian people? This is
:12:41. > :12:46.what he is doing, for many years trying to portray Nato and the US as
:12:47. > :12:51.aggressive forces stamping on Russian ground... But it is working.
:12:52. > :12:54.It is. But you are talking to a person who has travelled more than
:12:55. > :12:59.60 Russian regions in the past three years. Weekly Iommi to many crowds
:13:00. > :13:09.of ordinary Russian voters and talk to them. -- I talk to. There are
:13:10. > :13:13.three global powers, China, Russia, and the Western world. Take your
:13:14. > :13:23.pick. What about Moscow? Putin's messages that Moscow can be a global
:13:24. > :13:26.power. Look... Russians live in the real world. They watch TV but most
:13:27. > :13:32.of the time they live in the real world. They see these deteriorating
:13:33. > :13:36.roads, corrupt police, worn out houses in the countryside, they
:13:37. > :13:46.understand better than anybody else that TV reality is fine, but they
:13:47. > :13:51.know what Russian really is. Talk for a minute about ideology. When
:13:52. > :13:58.you go to these regions and talk to different people do you try to
:13:59. > :14:05.persuade them that the Western idea of liberal democracy is what Russia
:14:06. > :14:09.needs? No, it do not. They would disconnect if I talk like that. Do
:14:10. > :14:16.you use the word democracy at all? In a practical sense.
:14:17. > :14:25.He will be in power longer than Brezhnev was. If you believe is he
:14:26. > :14:29.will serve until 2024. Let's go back to democracy, one thing is Russians
:14:30. > :14:36.never accepted, at least two thirds majority always rejected Putin's
:14:37. > :14:39.moves to abolish direct elections of governors, direct elections of
:14:40. > :14:42.sitting Mayers and heads of district, he did that all over the
:14:43. > :14:48.country but people never liked that all bought that, and we are ready to
:14:49. > :14:53.restore that and support people. This is how Russians understand
:14:54. > :14:56.Qosi. This is how I notice things happening in Russia, in a lot of
:14:57. > :15:02.towns and villages in Russia, we see old monuments to Stalin are being
:15:03. > :15:07.put back in the town centre. We see new museums are being established,
:15:08. > :15:12.which hailed Stalin's contribution to Russian and Soviet history.
:15:13. > :15:15.History books are being rewritten to glorify what happened during the
:15:16. > :15:21.Stalinist period and the Soviet period. It seems to me that your
:15:22. > :15:25.messages about having to choose, either America, China or the Islamic
:15:26. > :15:29.world as a centre of power, they don't reflect how Russians feel
:15:30. > :15:34.today about their own past and the potential in their future to be
:15:35. > :15:38.powerful, as they were, as the Soviet Union. I take it all as a
:15:39. > :15:42.temporary foam floating around, it will be washed away in never to be
:15:43. > :15:46.because again if you go grassroots and talk to ordinary people, again
:15:47. > :15:51.maybe big numbers would say we support Putin's foreign policy and
:15:52. > :15:54.we like Stalin. When you asked them if you think these issues are
:15:55. > :16:00.important, Stalin, foreign policy is, Syria, Donbass, whatever, you
:16:01. > :16:03.will get a small minority because people think about other things and
:16:04. > :16:07.this is where Putin's policy delivered failures. Let's get to it
:16:08. > :16:11.because I know you wanted to talk about the economy since the start of
:16:12. > :16:17.the interview, how do you and your small group of opposition activists
:16:18. > :16:20.and leaders reach out to the millions of ordinary Russians who
:16:21. > :16:24.are struggling economically right now but do not appear to be
:16:25. > :16:29.responding or maybe even listening to your message. How do you reach
:16:30. > :16:33.them? You mean in terms of technical technology? We can talk about your
:16:34. > :16:37.access to media. In terms of substance. What is the message that
:16:38. > :16:42.persuades them you can change their lives for the better. If we go down
:16:43. > :16:47.to one simple formula it is demon the lies of. Remember what happened
:16:48. > :16:52.in Britain in the 1970s and what happened afterwards with Thatcher's
:16:53. > :16:57.reforms. You're saying Russia needs a Margaret Thatcher? We are saying
:16:58. > :17:02.monopolies. When we talk about political sales, economic sales,
:17:03. > :17:05.media sales, we have a few media outlets dominating the agenda,
:17:06. > :17:11.people don't like the word monopoly, people see what happened
:17:12. > :17:18.in the last 15 years, a shiny new building for Gazprom, for the new
:17:19. > :17:21.railways, and it is the same as what was there previously. Monopolies
:17:22. > :17:28.force them to pay more and earn less, and we are going with anti-
:17:29. > :17:35.monopolisation. Russians want to hear more about it. Isn't that the
:17:36. > :17:38.cowboy economy that Boris Yeltsin introduced to Russia after the
:17:39. > :17:45.collapse of the Soviet Union which Russians remember with the deepest
:17:46. > :17:47.dismay, and that's why Putin with this much more centralised and
:17:48. > :17:51.authoritarian system appears to appeal to so many Russians who
:17:52. > :17:54.remember what happened in the anarchic days of Yeltsin. We have a
:17:55. > :17:59.lot of people who remember what happened. Some of Yeltsin's policies
:18:00. > :18:04.were quite controversial, and I'm not the guide to endorse all of
:18:05. > :18:09.them. I may look younger but I'm old enough that I could have voted in
:18:10. > :18:13.the Soviet times. I remember waking up at 3am to stand in lines for food
:18:14. > :18:21.for the day, because the shelves were totally empty. When Yeltsin
:18:22. > :18:24.came there was food in the stores and the problem disappeared
:18:25. > :18:28.absolutely. If you ask Russians today if you want to go back to the
:18:29. > :18:34.crazy anarchic economic times of Yeltsin they would say absolutely no
:18:35. > :18:37.way. No, no, no, most of the people who remember the 1990s understand
:18:38. > :18:44.that first there's not much difference now, it's all mythology,
:18:45. > :18:49.phone and TV propaganda. Crime is still high, infrastructure direct
:18:50. > :18:51.deteriorating and lots worse in many places than the nineteen nineties.
:18:52. > :18:58.Many new trading centres have been built during the past years. When
:18:59. > :19:02.you start to talk about this to people this mythology about bad 90s
:19:03. > :19:07.and good Putin times, it banishes because practically people don't see
:19:08. > :19:11.many differences, mostly talk and propaganda. Talking about mostly
:19:12. > :19:15.talk, you talked passionately about your vision for Russia, the problem
:19:16. > :19:21.is getting back to the internal dynamics of the opposition, the
:19:22. > :19:23.anti- Putin pro- democratic opposition, you're constantly
:19:24. > :19:27.fighting amongst yourselves, creating alliances and then you
:19:28. > :19:33.destroy them, you badmouth, you are full of ego and vanity, you're not
:19:34. > :19:37.coherent as an opposition. Thank you for the kind words. Can we return to
:19:38. > :19:44.the 90s? One thing that people realise, which is obvious, income
:19:45. > :19:48.inequality grew enormously under Putin and people understand that and
:19:49. > :19:55.it is visible everywhere. Back to us fighting. When we have so many
:19:56. > :19:58.barriers and when you don't have an easily achieved success story, we
:19:59. > :20:03.don't have a baggage of success stories to begin with because we are
:20:04. > :20:08.mostly banned from elections. All the more reason to be united. You
:20:09. > :20:13.and other leaders like Alex Navalny, you have tried to create this
:20:14. > :20:16.umbrella opposition movement. Last year a big hullabaloo, you said this
:20:17. > :20:24.is going to be a movement to take on Putin but the taxi are you are
:20:25. > :20:27.fighting like rats in a sack, and there are people inside your own
:20:28. > :20:33.small Democratic Choice movement who have accused you, and I am quoting
:20:34. > :20:39.Igor of being authoritarian, it's difficult to have 1's own opinion in
:20:40. > :20:47.the party, meal you react badly to criticism. This is your style. Are
:20:48. > :20:52.you going to discuss Facebook comments on a BBC programme? Why can
:20:53. > :20:57.you not unite in the opposition? Let's talk serious things, I refuse
:20:58. > :21:03.to commend the troll's remarks, it is sunny but not serious. Speaking
:21:04. > :21:07.seriously, we have a situation where the party licence to run without
:21:08. > :21:12.serious barriers in elections are controlled by one man. He has huge
:21:13. > :21:16.problems with his image. He needs to step down from number one position
:21:17. > :21:21.in the party list, or we won't get any support at all. You won't work
:21:22. > :21:25.with him? He refuses, we're not fighting, we just say we won't
:21:26. > :21:29.participate with him because of his image problems, sex tape released on
:21:30. > :21:34.TV and so on. We are not fighting, we just withdrew. That's a cheap
:21:35. > :21:39.shot, you mentioned a sex tape that he said is a fraud, even if it
:21:40. > :21:43.isn't, why would you mention it? It comes back to the fact there is no
:21:44. > :21:47.unity in the opposition. I mention it because voters have seen it and
:21:48. > :21:51.they ask questions about what we talked about before. Everybody
:21:52. > :21:55.knows, including us in the first place, we are under 20 47
:21:56. > :22:00.surveillance. People ask simple questions, why can't you guys just
:22:01. > :22:05.simply control yourselves in the wake of the crucial elections? We
:22:06. > :22:09.have to answer something. We are there to discuss reforms during the
:22:10. > :22:13.campaign, we do not want to discuss the tapes. Let him answer these
:22:14. > :22:17.questions, I don't want to answer for him. You're making some kind of
:22:18. > :22:21.political capital out of it but you make an interesting point, given the
:22:22. > :22:24.pressures, surveillance, intimidation, arrests and the
:22:25. > :22:29.improvement of Navalny for a short time, Garry Kasparov, who has been
:22:30. > :22:32.on this programme, has quit, he doesn't deal said in Russia and
:22:33. > :22:37.doesn't want to live there any more, how close are you to that? Yes, it
:22:38. > :22:44.is not safe to live in Russia any more. My partner was killed. And
:22:45. > :22:48.three months after that, another important member of our coalition,
:22:49. > :22:53.the chief representative in Moscow, was poisoned. It's very clear it was
:22:54. > :22:58.a criminal poisoning, most likely done by the FSB structures. So it is
:22:59. > :23:04.not safe. Will you stay all with you go? I have to say because I have to
:23:05. > :23:06.bring these efforts to certain kind of results and there is a
:23:07. > :23:11.perspective ahead despite the nasty things you quote from Facebook. It's
:23:12. > :23:16.not just from Facebook believe me. If we're going to talk the future, a
:23:17. > :23:20.last question, you jokingly said Putin will be around longer than
:23:21. > :23:25.Brezhnev, he could be around if he stands again for president until
:23:26. > :23:29.2024. If he does, what will Russia look like by 2024? Firstly
:23:30. > :23:35.technically will stay longer when his current term expires than
:23:36. > :23:38.Brezhnev so that's almost achieved. Second, it's important to bring
:23:39. > :23:42.Putin to responsibility for the system that he bailed, and that's
:23:43. > :23:45.possible through parliamentary elections and all other political
:23:46. > :23:49.instruments we have. Difficult but possible. If his party loses
:23:50. > :23:53.majority in parliament this September, which is achievable, they
:23:54. > :23:58.already have less than 50% approval rating, so that's likely in
:23:59. > :24:02.September. Putin will have to engage in dialogue with other forces. You
:24:03. > :24:08.believe that's possible? Absolutely. Vladimir Milov, we have
:24:09. > :24:10.to end there. Thanks for being on HARDtalk. Thank you. It's a pleasure
:24:11. > :24:31.to have you. They say a week is a long time
:24:32. > :24:37.in politics, but a lot can happen in This is where a number
:24:38. > :24:42.of places were on Sunday.