:00:15. > :00:18.After the British Labour Party suffered a crushing election defeat
:00:19. > :00:22.a year ago, the shell-shocked party took a dramatic turn to the left.
:00:23. > :00:24.New leader Jeremy Corbyn presented himself as the anti-austerity,
:00:25. > :00:27.anti-war antithesis of Tony Blair's New Labour.
:00:28. > :00:30.So, how is the Corbyn formula working?
:00:31. > :00:33.My guest is senior Labour stalwart Shadow Foreign
:00:34. > :00:39.Does Labour present a credible alternative
:00:40. > :01:11.Hilary Benn, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:12. > :01:15.It is, as I said, a year on from a very, very difficult
:01:16. > :01:22.We've just had regional elections across much of the UK and results
:01:23. > :01:28.In response to them, Jeremy Corbyn said, we hung on.
:01:29. > :01:34.I think we all recognise that we are going to need to do
:01:35. > :01:38.That election defeat a year ago and, indeed, in 2010 was very painful
:01:39. > :01:42.and difficult and it's a question of regaining the public's
:01:43. > :01:48.If you look at the results last week, really important one in London
:01:49. > :01:51.with Sadiq Khan's election as the mayor of our great capital
:01:52. > :01:54.city, Marvin Rees won in Bristol, in Scotland...
:01:55. > :01:58.You can point to some positive signs but one can also point
:01:59. > :02:02.to some deeply depressing structural problems,
:02:03. > :02:04.perhaps the biggest of which is in Scotland.
:02:05. > :02:06.Would you agree that, given what has happened in Scotland,
:02:07. > :02:11.the chances of Labour winning a national general election victory,
:02:12. > :02:15.looked at from today, are virtually nil?
:02:16. > :02:19.We have a huge challenge ahead of us, and yes, if Scotland remains
:02:20. > :02:22.as it is at the moment, we would have to make a very,
:02:23. > :02:24.very large number of gains in England.
:02:25. > :02:30.I'm not going to forecast the outcome of the next election
:02:31. > :02:34.but, with the boundary changes, but also makes it more difficult
:02:35. > :02:38.The reasons for our decline in Scotland, I think,
:02:39. > :02:44.They are not just about the independence referendum.
:02:45. > :02:47.That is going to take a long time for us to recover there.
:02:48. > :02:51.Kezia Dugdale is there for the long term and she is committed to holding
:02:52. > :02:53.the SNP government to account and it is striking that
:02:54. > :02:56.Nicola Sturgeon did actually lose her absolute majority
:02:57. > :03:00.Perhaps what is most striking, from a Labour point of view,
:03:01. > :03:03.and in terms of figuring out the party's strategy for the next
:03:04. > :03:05.four years in the run-up to the next general election,
:03:06. > :03:07.what's interesting about Scotland is that Jeremy Corbyn said,
:03:08. > :03:10.number one, I'm making it a priority, and number two,
:03:11. > :03:14.he led the strategic shift left in Scotland.
:03:15. > :03:17.The message from Scottish Labour was, we are going to raise your
:03:18. > :03:20.taxes, we are going to spend more, we are going to ditch Trident.
:03:21. > :03:24.These were all fundamentally left-wing messages, left of the SNP.
:03:25. > :03:27.But the Scottish public isn't buying.
:03:28. > :03:32.But I think that the reasons for that are longer standing
:03:33. > :03:35.than the particular policies that we were campaigning on in this
:03:36. > :03:41.It has been a long-term decline and it was the referendum that
:03:42. > :03:44.suddenly opened the floodgates and we saw the extraordinary
:03:45. > :03:47.about turn and the loss of every one of our seats,
:03:48. > :03:50.bar one, Ian Murray, in the general election a year ago.
:03:51. > :03:52.So look, none of us, Jeremy, the Shadow Cabinet,
:03:53. > :03:56.the party in Scotland, none of us are under any illusions
:03:57. > :03:58.about the scale of the challenge we face.
:03:59. > :04:01.I guess one of the deep problems for Labour today, going
:04:02. > :04:05.beyond results in Scotland, London or anywhere else is that it's
:04:06. > :04:08.very difficult for a party to deliver a successful message
:04:09. > :04:12.to the public when it appears to be so divided.
:04:13. > :04:15.And one of the biggest divides in Labour today
:04:16. > :04:20.is between the party on the ground, the tens of thousands
:04:21. > :04:24.of new activists have signed up to the party and the Parliamentary
:04:25. > :04:28.party, which clearly, in very large numbers,
:04:29. > :04:31.doesn't back Jeremy Corbyn and is deeply dissatisfied
:04:32. > :04:39.Well, it's a fact that Jeremy's support amongst the PLP at the time
:04:40. > :04:47.He only just got enough supporters to get him into the election
:04:48. > :05:05.in the first place and, when one looks the way Parliament
:05:06. > :05:09.The lesson from history, and those of us who are old enough to have
:05:10. > :05:11.lived through the experiences of the 1980s, is that divided
:05:12. > :05:13.parties find it very difficult to win elections.
:05:14. > :05:16.One of the responsibilities on all of us is to recognise
:05:17. > :05:19.that we have to turn our attention to the government, we have
:05:20. > :05:22.to turn our attention the policies that we are going to develop to put
:05:23. > :05:25.to the British people before the next election and not to argue
:05:26. > :05:28.amongst ourselves because that, in the end, does no good, above all,
:05:29. > :05:30.to the people that we represent and seek to represent.
:05:31. > :05:33.Interesting phrase you just used, it's my job to support Jeremy.
:05:34. > :05:36.It's not your job to support Jeremy if you become convinced that he's
:05:37. > :05:41.taking the Labour Party in the fundamentally wrong direction.
:05:42. > :05:44.Then it's surely your job, as a loyal Labour Party politician,
:05:45. > :05:50.No, it is our job to support the elected leader
:05:51. > :05:52.of the Labour Party, and that is what we are doing.
:05:53. > :05:58.That is an obligation on all members of the party, but when it comes
:05:59. > :06:01.to particular policies, then it is for the party to decide.
:06:02. > :06:05.So let's take an example, the future of Britain's nuclear deterrent,
:06:06. > :06:08.where we are currently having a review.
:06:09. > :06:11.The Labour Party's policy for 30 plus years has been
:06:12. > :06:15.to support the maintenance of Britain's nuclear deterrent.
:06:16. > :06:19.That is my view, it is not Jeremy's view, everybody knows that,
:06:20. > :06:22.but the Labour Party conference in the end will decide when we see
:06:23. > :06:25.the result of the review that is taking place at the moment.
:06:26. > :06:28.So it's not as if debate and discussion about particular
:06:29. > :06:32.policies ends because a particular leader has been elected.
:06:33. > :06:35.That is part of the life blood, the democracy, of the Labour Party,
:06:36. > :06:39.but we are working towards the same ends, which is to try and get rid
:06:40. > :06:41.of a Tory government that is failing in the country.
:06:42. > :06:44.It's interesting you pick up on Trident as a litmus test issue.
:06:45. > :06:47.Number one, do you really believe the British public as a whole
:06:48. > :06:49.is ready for a far left of the which says,
:06:50. > :06:52.we are scrapping Britain's independent nuclear deterrent?
:06:53. > :06:55.I'm just asking you whether you believe that is even conceivably
:06:56. > :07:01.I don't think that would be the right policy to adopt.
:07:02. > :07:05.On the record, as having said that, why do I hold that view?
:07:06. > :07:09.Because I believe that the deterrent has helped to maintain the peace
:07:10. > :07:13.since the end of the Second World War, because it is a world out
:07:14. > :07:15.there that has changed, certainly from the Cold War
:07:16. > :07:21.of my childhood and student days, but there are different threats now
:07:22. > :07:25.In addition, I don't believe that if Britain were to announce
:07:26. > :07:28.it was giving up its nuclear deterrent than any of the other
:07:29. > :07:30.nuclear states, whether they've signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation
:07:31. > :07:32.Treaty or not would say, if you are doing that,
:07:33. > :07:37.And I don't think the British people would feel safe in a world
:07:38. > :07:40.in which we didn't have nuclear weapons but North Korea did.
:07:41. > :07:43.I framed our conversation in terms of credibility.
:07:44. > :07:46.One thing Jeremy Corbyn said is, even if the party tells me
:07:47. > :07:48.that we must retain our commitment to renewing Trident,
:07:49. > :07:51.I as a Prime Minister, if elected as leader of a successful
:07:52. > :07:54.Labour Party to Number 10 Downing St, would never
:07:55. > :08:00.I simply will never personally use nuclear weapons.
:08:01. > :08:04.That undermines the credibility of the entire policy!
:08:05. > :08:08.That is Jeremy being true onto himself and that is one
:08:09. > :08:12.But then it's incumbent upon you, is not, to say, Mr Corbyn,
:08:13. > :08:15.with all due respect, you've left the party
:08:16. > :08:20.in an impossible position because we have no credible policy?
:08:21. > :08:25.The policy, as to whether we continue to have nuclear weapons,
:08:26. > :08:29.will be decided by the Labour Party conference and then all of us
:08:30. > :08:32.are going to have to look at the outcome if, as I hope,
:08:33. > :08:34.the Labour Party conference says, yes, we are going to stick
:08:35. > :08:37.with the position that we have taken these last 30 years because one
:08:38. > :08:42.of the first obligations on a party that aspires to be in government
:08:43. > :08:46.is that we demonstrate that we are prepared to defend
:08:47. > :08:51.And I think the nuclear deterrent, because in the end, it says
:08:52. > :08:53.to a potential aggressor, I really wouldn't do that
:08:54. > :08:59.if I were you, is part of the way in which we keep the nation safe,
:09:00. > :09:02.and that is why I support the retention of that deterrent.
:09:03. > :09:05.As you say, that's an issue which looms large for
:09:06. > :09:08.Right now, the biggest challenge, and you've said it's the biggest
:09:09. > :09:11.challenge facing the entire country for at least 40 years,
:09:12. > :09:13.is the decision to be made on whether to stay
:09:14. > :09:19.It is a problem for you, is it not, as a very strong
:09:20. > :09:23.and passionate advocate of remain, that Jeremy Corbyn has a track
:09:24. > :09:28.record which tells us that he, despite his support for remaining
:09:29. > :09:34.today, fundamentally disagrees with so much
:09:35. > :09:37.of what the European Union does and, in the past, has sounded
:09:38. > :09:42.I don't agree with your analysis of his view and it certainly is not
:09:43. > :09:46.problem because the Labour Party, as you know, has been on a journey
:09:47. > :09:51.In the 1975 referendum, a majority of the Labour Party,
:09:52. > :09:56.Jeremy, me, lots of labour and trade union members,
:09:57. > :09:58.voted for us to leave the common market.
:09:59. > :10:01.But the world has changed and the Labour Party's views have
:10:02. > :10:05.changed, not least because Europe has become a way of helping
:10:06. > :10:07.to protect workers' rights, something that Jeremy
:10:08. > :10:11.and I and all of us are extremely passionate about.
:10:12. > :10:15.And my argument is, it's even more convincing and forceful when someone
:10:16. > :10:18.who says, in the past, this is what I thought,
:10:19. > :10:22.but I am now of the view that this is the right thing for us to do.
:10:23. > :10:27.I think it resonates with the public, and what is true
:10:28. > :10:29.about the Labour Party now is the labour and trade union
:10:30. > :10:33.movement is virtually united in support of the argument
:10:34. > :10:37.that we should remain in the European Union have
:10:38. > :10:39.very clear and sound reasons to do with jobs,
:10:40. > :10:42.investment, growth, our security in the world, workers' rights,
:10:43. > :10:45.protection of the environment and Britain's voice.
:10:46. > :10:49.I believe that Britain's voice, and so does Jeremy, is made louder
:10:50. > :10:52.and stronger by being part of the European Union and leaving
:10:53. > :10:57.You've been a strong, passionate supporter
:10:58. > :10:59.of the EU for some time, not true of Mr Corbyn.
:11:00. > :11:01.This is what he said during his own leadership
:11:02. > :11:06.He said, I would advocate a No vote if we are going to get
:11:07. > :11:10.an imposition of free-market policies across Europe.
:11:11. > :11:12.And another quotes, he's made it plain that he does
:11:13. > :11:18.believe that the EU is run by a corporate interest.
:11:19. > :11:20.deeply reluctant to be very public and passionate backing
:11:21. > :11:24.There's another quote from Jeremy's election campaign,
:11:25. > :11:27.which you haven't used, in which he said, I believe
:11:28. > :11:33.And if you look at the speech that he gave about a month ago,
:11:34. > :11:39.Yes, we want a stronger social Europe, yes, we want
:11:40. > :11:43.better rights for workers, but the way in which you do
:11:44. > :11:47.that is to work with your neighbours.
:11:48. > :11:50.You look at the world out there, which you discuss on this
:11:51. > :11:52.programme every week, you see the challenges,
:11:53. > :11:55.you think of what we are going to leave to our children
:11:56. > :11:58.and our grandchildren, and the truth is this,
:11:59. > :12:01.that cooperating with our European neighbours, and this is the argument
:12:02. > :12:04.we are making, as is Jeremy, cooperating with our European
:12:05. > :12:07.neighbours is really important in helping us to manage
:12:08. > :12:12.the challenges that face the world the next generation
:12:13. > :12:16.So it partly comes down to the question of leadership,
:12:17. > :12:20.When one is trying to win a case, one has to be as passionate
:12:21. > :12:23.David Cameron is all over the airwaves every single
:12:24. > :12:25.day, backing the remain campaign, leading it.
:12:26. > :12:27.Jeremy Corbyn most definitely is not.
:12:28. > :12:29.He had an event yesterday, he's maybe odd speech,
:12:30. > :12:33.but relative to Cameron, he is as quiet as a mouse.
:12:34. > :12:36.And here is what some of your most senior pro-Europe
:12:37. > :12:43.They said, there are some moments when party leaders must make a real
:12:44. > :12:49.We need Jeremy to convey the urgency, set out
:12:50. > :12:54.The time is now the Labour's leadership to stand
:12:55. > :13:00.We then heard that Jeremy Corbyn was off on holiday just before the vote.
:13:01. > :13:03.That is exactly what we are doing and he is doing.
:13:04. > :13:07.That is exactly what he did in this speech he gave and you will hear
:13:08. > :13:09.a lot more from Jeremy during the course of this campaign.
:13:10. > :13:12.Do you agree with my analysis that he's
:13:13. > :13:18.All of us in the Labour Party have got a responsibility to use the time
:13:19. > :13:21.that we've got now that elections are out of the way,
:13:22. > :13:23.to argue the case, on which we are united,
:13:24. > :13:25.Jeremy, the whole of the Shadow Cabinet, the vast
:13:26. > :13:27.majority of the PLP, all of the major unions that
:13:28. > :13:30.are affiliated to the Labour Party, speaking with one voice
:13:31. > :13:34.about the importance of remaining in the European Union.
:13:35. > :13:37.You, obviously a Shadow Foreign Secretary, take a particular
:13:38. > :13:41.interest in the degree to which Britain is a stronger voice
:13:42. > :13:44.on the world stage as a part of the European Union.
:13:45. > :13:49.It disagreed with profoundly by the Brexit campaign.
:13:50. > :13:53.But I just want to pick away at some of the things you've said.
:13:54. > :13:57.You say, the EU is a hugely powerful alliance built on the values
:13:58. > :14:00.of democracy, respect for human rights, free media,
:14:01. > :14:04.rule of law, individual freedom, etc, etc.
:14:05. > :14:07.I just wonder whether you have spent much time reading about or visiting
:14:08. > :14:15.Victor Orban's Hungary or the Poland of the Law and Justice Party,
:14:16. > :14:17.a bunch of other European nations too, where there are real questions
:14:18. > :14:21.about is whether these shared values, particularly in terms
:14:22. > :14:25.of the migration crisis, add up to a hill of beans?
:14:26. > :14:30.You've got to take a long-term view about what the European Union has
:14:31. > :14:33.achieved, and its greatest achievement, as you know,
:14:34. > :14:38.has been to bring to an end what was centuries of conflict
:14:39. > :14:43.And it didn't happen by accident out of the ashes of
:14:44. > :14:46.It happened because political leaders said, by binding the nations
:14:47. > :14:51.together economically, we will make a return to conflict
:14:52. > :14:55.materially impossible and unthinkable.
:14:56. > :14:58.You could argue that Nato is pretty darn important, actually.
:14:59. > :15:02.They are both important but you know...
:15:03. > :15:06.In fact, Boris Johnson, when he wrote his book on Churchill,
:15:07. > :15:12.he described that achievement as a spectacular success.
:15:13. > :15:15.But Boris Johnson has very powerfully made the point
:15:16. > :15:18.in the last few days that, yes, there is a strong case for arguing
:15:19. > :15:21.the EU is a very important part of a peaceful, stable Europe
:15:22. > :15:25.since 1945, but the idea that David Cameron now peddles,
:15:26. > :15:28.that if Britain pulls out, Europe slips back
:15:29. > :15:33.into a continent of warfare and hatred, it's nonsense!
:15:34. > :15:37.The EU will continue without Britain and peace and stability across most
:15:38. > :15:40.of Europe is unlikely to be affected materially by Britain
:15:41. > :15:57.The European Union has provided a home for countries that came out of
:15:58. > :16:01.the former Soviet bloc and that has been a great achievement because I
:16:02. > :16:04.know from my inexperience as a minister, those countries had to
:16:05. > :16:08.make changes in the way in which they will run and worked in order to
:16:09. > :16:13.meet the standard. You are right that you look at the continent of
:16:14. > :16:19.Europe and around the world and you see politics moving in different
:16:20. > :16:24.directions, in part because of the impact of the global economic crash,
:16:25. > :16:29.and this is a dangerous time because of those precious. There's no
:16:30. > :16:32.question about that at all. But the existence of the European Union, the
:16:33. > :16:37.fact that the 28 countries come together to deal with the refugee
:16:38. > :16:43.crisis... Which they have failed to do. Imagine a continent in which
:16:44. > :16:48.there was not that structure, imagine it. We would see a lot more
:16:49. > :16:53.barbed wire fences and brick walls and that is not in anybody's
:16:54. > :16:58.interests. Take another example, Russian aggression in the Ukraine.
:16:59. > :17:02.The fact that Europe came together and agreed to impose sanctions on
:17:03. > :17:08.Russia, they are hurting Russia but they are a sign of the European
:17:09. > :17:15.family saying, you can't do this. You were a big advocate at the time
:17:16. > :17:20.of the invasion of Iraq in 2003. The European Union was fundamentally
:17:21. > :17:24.split on the issue, France and Germany deeply disagreed with Tony
:17:25. > :17:31.Blair in your position. So this idea that the European family delivers
:17:32. > :17:36.coherent foreign policy is nonsense. With respect, that's a caricature of
:17:37. > :17:42.the argument I'm making. There will be differences of view on particular
:17:43. > :17:47.issues. But are we in a better place in Europe by being part of the
:17:48. > :17:51.European Union to have the chance to try an agreement? Is that a force
:17:52. > :17:55.for good? Is it an influence for good in the world? Yes, in Britain
:17:56. > :18:01.is in a particular position because we are both leading. This notion we
:18:02. > :18:04.are locked in the boot of someone else's car, being driven in a
:18:05. > :18:10.direction we don't want to go on, is nonsense. Picking up on the
:18:11. > :18:14.migration crisis, it is a big issue in the referendum campaign. It seems
:18:15. > :18:20.to me there is a difference between your view of whether Britain needs
:18:21. > :18:25.to impose tough immigration controls and particularly about the benefits
:18:26. > :18:29.system and the view of the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, who has
:18:30. > :18:35.shied away from talking about it. They don't believe that there is a
:18:36. > :18:39.future for national borders and they believe in workers, freedom of
:18:40. > :18:42.movement across the EU. You seem less keen on that side of the
:18:43. > :18:50.British public. How big a difference is their? Weber's position has been
:18:51. > :18:53.we believe in fair contribution but the reason people have come from
:18:54. > :18:58.other European countries to Britain is to work. They have made a net
:18:59. > :19:03.contribution to our economy. The British public believe that far too
:19:04. > :19:10.many have come in and one can trace that back to Labour's decision in
:19:11. > :19:14.2004 to open the gates to Eastern European accession countries. Jack
:19:15. > :19:19.Straw has said that was a terrible mistake. If one looks at polling
:19:20. > :19:22.evidence and the strength of Ukip, many working people in this country
:19:23. > :19:29.today do not believe your party is tough or strong on controlling
:19:30. > :19:33.immigration. When it comes to the European Union, and I accept there
:19:34. > :19:37.are places in sectors where there has been pressure on wages and one
:19:38. > :19:40.has to recognise that, but all the studies that have been done have
:19:41. > :19:45.shown that is relatively small when you compare it to the economic
:19:46. > :19:49.benefits of being in the European Union, the access to the single
:19:50. > :19:53.market, the fact we are the most successful country in the EU in
:19:54. > :19:58.attracting foreign direct investment is in part connected with the fact
:19:59. > :20:03.that we are members of the European Union. You need to manage that. We
:20:04. > :20:07.had a fund that helped areas that were facing pressures to cope with
:20:08. > :20:12.that. One of the things the present government did was to get rid of
:20:13. > :20:16.that. In forcing the minimum wage, arguing for a living wage, dealing
:20:17. > :20:19.with employment agencies that say we will only recruit workers from
:20:20. > :20:24.another country. Those things should not be allowed. When it comes to the
:20:25. > :20:30.housing crisis, solving that ends in our own hands. One other area want
:20:31. > :20:35.to refer to when it comes to building and ability for the Labour
:20:36. > :20:41.Party, it concerns the fallout from days of terrible publicity
:20:42. > :20:44.surrounding one of your MPs then Ken Livingstone, appearing to hold views
:20:45. > :21:01.which many in the Jewish community of the UK felt anti-Semitic. Ken
:21:02. > :21:07.Livingstone less apologetic. Lord Levy says Labour has a serious
:21:08. > :21:11.problem with anti-Semitism. It's crucial that leadership stands out
:21:12. > :21:18.once and for all. You haven't stamped out, have you? I wouldn't
:21:19. > :21:24.agree with that. Anyone against whom this accusation has been made has
:21:25. > :21:29.been suspended and Jeremy Corbyn has established this enquiry. Do you
:21:30. > :21:36.believe Ken Livingstone, when he was talking about Hitler and Zionism and
:21:37. > :21:39.suggesting that his supporters, was that anti-Semitic? I will not
:21:40. > :21:47.comment on individual cases because there has to be due process through
:21:48. > :21:53.the NEC but I think a lot of people look to Ken Livingstone's comments
:21:54. > :21:57.without a incredulity. Including me. I don't understand what he thought
:21:58. > :22:02.he was doing and why he was saying what he said but we need to leave
:22:03. > :22:09.that to... What about Jeremy Corbyn? This matters to you. Jeremy Corbyn
:22:10. > :22:15.has referred to the mass and has belies friends. They friends of
:22:16. > :22:19.yours? No, they are not. He said the House of Commons last week they were
:22:20. > :22:25.not his friends and he does not support those. When it comes to how
:22:26. > :22:30.mass, if there would be peace in the Middle East, people have to commit
:22:31. > :22:33.to a peace process, they have to stop being committed to armed
:22:34. > :22:38.struggle and in the case of how mass, they had to recognise the
:22:39. > :22:42.right of Israel to exist otherwise there will not be pieced in the
:22:43. > :22:51.Middle East. I want to get to grips with you. I'd you saying to me the
:22:52. > :22:55.Jeremy Corbyn in his sharing of platforms with Hezbollah are and how
:22:56. > :23:00.mass, has done a grave disservice to Labour in the Middle East? I'm not
:23:01. > :23:05.saying that. As a backbencher, Jeremy has been involved on a lot of
:23:06. > :23:09.platforms with a lot of people. And saying to you what he said the house
:23:10. > :23:15.are problems in those two specific questions. If there is to be pieced
:23:16. > :23:19.in the Middle East, there has to be courageous political leadership on
:23:20. > :23:23.the part of the party to the conflict, the government of Israel
:23:24. > :23:28.and Palestinians and that is not present at the moment, and the only
:23:29. > :23:32.way will happen is if there is a commitment to peaceful and
:23:33. > :23:36.compromise because peace will not come to the Middle East unless those
:23:37. > :23:39.things happen and there's an obligation on those who are
:23:40. > :23:43.currently engaged in what they believe to be an armed struggle and
:23:44. > :23:47.who don't accept the right of Israel to exist, they have to change that
:23:48. > :23:52.view in order to be part of a peaceful solution. We have run out
:23:53. > :23:59.time. Hilary Benn, thank you for being an HARDtalk.