:00:00. > :00:07.Welcome to a special edition of Hardtalk
:00:08. > :00:09.which is part of a day of
:00:10. > :00:13.BBC programming devoted to the world on the move.
:00:14. > :00:15.I am joined in this BBC
:00:16. > :00:19.theatre by an audience and a special guest,
:00:20. > :00:20.Lord Dubs, Alf Dubs, veteran
:00:21. > :00:30.Labour politician, former head of the British review Council, and a
:00:31. > :00:36.man whose life story illustrates what it means to flee for your life.
:00:37. > :00:38.As a six-year old Jewish boy in Nazi-occupied Czechoslovakia, he was
:00:39. > :00:40.saved from near certain death by a rescue mission
:00:41. > :00:42.which became known as
:00:43. > :00:48.77 years on, are humanitarian principles clearer
:00:49. > :01:01.when it comes to migration? APPLAUSE.
:01:02. > :01:05.Lord Dubs, Alf Dubs, welcome to Hardtalk.
:01:06. > :01:10.Let me ask you a broad opening question.
:01:11. > :01:27.Throughout your life, from being a boy in Nazi
:01:28. > :01:28.occupied Czechoslovakia to today in your 80s,
:01:29. > :01:33.refugee and migration issues, do you see a change amongst us humans?
:01:34. > :01:35.Do you think we are more compassionate
:01:36. > :01:37.or less compassionate today than we were in 1939
:01:38. > :01:41.I would like to think we are more compassionate
:01:42. > :01:43.because we see some of
:01:44. > :01:45.the awful things happening on the world on our television
:01:46. > :01:51.And so I think we are more aware of what has happened.
:01:52. > :01:53.Equally we seem to have more concerned about migration.
:01:54. > :02:04.A balance, and a delicate one, but do you see a shift in it
:02:05. > :02:08.Do you fear that our compassion index is perhaps falling?
:02:09. > :02:10.I think, in Britain, there is a not of compassion.
:02:11. > :02:17.One has to tap into it and get it to express itself, but
:02:18. > :02:19.I think that the British people are essentially very compassionate.
:02:20. > :02:22.They care about the world, they want to do something
:02:23. > :02:25.for the refugees that we see on our television screens and it is
:02:26. > :02:27.difficult to know quite how to give effect to that.
:02:28. > :02:30.When there is a way of doing it, British people
:02:31. > :02:32.respond, as I have found in recent weeks.
:02:33. > :02:35.Well, in recent weeks, you have been very involved in a push to
:02:36. > :02:37.get children, minors into this country from camps, makeshift camps
:02:38. > :02:41.Many of them Syrian, but Afghans and others as well.
:02:42. > :02:43.And I want to talk in detail about that.
:02:44. > :02:46.But to give people some context, I want to talk about your own
:02:47. > :02:49.Tell me what you remember of being that little boy in
:02:50. > :02:51.Czechoslovakia in 1939 and discovering that
:02:52. > :02:55.I remember the day that the Germans occupied Prague,
:02:56. > :02:59.several months before the war started, in March 19 39.
:03:00. > :03:02.We had to tear a picture of President Benes
:03:03. > :03:04.out of our schoolbooks and stick in a picture of Hitler.
:03:05. > :03:07.And then came the day when my mother put me on a
:03:08. > :03:12.I could see German soldiers with swastikas
:03:13. > :03:14.standing in the background and the train went off
:03:15. > :03:23.and took two days to get to Liverpool Street station.
:03:24. > :03:25.A long journey, I didn't mind the hard wood seats.
:03:26. > :03:29.When we got to the Dutch border, the older ones
:03:30. > :03:42.cheered because they knew we were out of reach
:03:43. > :03:45.Germany. I knew it was significant, but I did not fully understand why.
:03:46. > :03:46.Do you remember your mother trying to
:03:47. > :03:50.explain to you, while you were still in Prague, why she was actually
:03:51. > :03:53.putting you on a train and you were being deprived of her presence?
:03:54. > :03:55.My father, who is the Jewish side of my
:03:56. > :03:57.family, my father left Prague within a day
:03:58. > :04:01.And he came to Britain and my mother said, there's a chance I'll see him
:04:02. > :04:05.That was the incentive for me to be happy on the train.
:04:06. > :04:07.Equally, I said goodbye to my mother for what
:04:08. > :04:11.So I was aware that this was all very momentous.
:04:12. > :04:14.Do you remember anything of the troops on the streets, of any
:04:15. > :04:18.I remember seeing massive German soldiers, marching about.
:04:19. > :04:22.Schools were supposed to greet Hitler when he came to Prague
:04:23. > :04:28.My mother said we were much too small and my class
:04:29. > :04:32.I didn't see particularly any abuses of Jews
:04:33. > :04:37.And it was only a few months before the war began.
:04:38. > :04:39.And the real oppression was just beginning in Czechoslovakia.
:04:40. > :04:43.But there is one twist to the story that is truly extraordinary and that
:04:44. > :04:46.is the role of one British man whom I had the great privilege to meet
:04:47. > :04:53.and have had on the heart programme myself,
:04:54. > :05:01.-- and have on the Hardtalk programme myself,
:05:02. > :05:06.I talked to him when he was 105 and he
:05:07. > :05:09.was the inspiration for that Kindertransport movement to get more
:05:10. > :05:11.than 600 Jewish children out of Prague along with you.
:05:12. > :05:14.You came to know him quite well. I did.
:05:15. > :05:16.I knew I had come on a Kindertransport, but
:05:17. > :05:18.it was years later before there was a television
:05:19. > :05:21.programme and it all came out that he will the person who
:05:22. > :05:23.Of course, there were other Kindertransports
:05:24. > :05:28.And I got to know him pretty well. Wonderful man.
:05:29. > :05:30.He had a good sense of humour, didn't suffer falls gladly.
:05:31. > :05:32.Loved talking politics, thought Tony Blair
:05:33. > :05:37.You know, he had been a Labour candidate for
:05:38. > :05:42.Mind you, Maidenhead was as Tory then as it is now, so he didn't win.
:05:43. > :05:46.But I suppose what his life told us and still tells us today is that one
:05:47. > :05:59.When faced with a humanitarian crisis
:06:00. > :06:00.like this, one person can make adifference.
:06:01. > :06:07.And almost by accident, Nicky Winterton with
:06:08. > :06:10.a friend one up in Prague in the autumn of 1938.
:06:11. > :06:12.He saw what was happening. Anybody else would have walked away.
:06:13. > :06:16.He decided to help children, mainly Jewish children, get out.
:06:17. > :06:20.He persuaded the British government to take them.
:06:21. > :06:23.He worked with the Nazi authorities to allow the children to leave.
:06:24. > :06:28.A lesser man would have said, this is for somebody else.
:06:29. > :06:31.The reason I want to talk about this at some
:06:32. > :06:34.length is that I feel so many resonances with challenges the world
:06:35. > :06:38.I think the assumption some make today is that somehow the
:06:39. > :06:42.world was aware of what the Nazis, what Hitler intended to do with the
:06:43. > :06:46.Jews, and therefore, there was a humanitarian
:06:47. > :06:52.But if one looks at the time that what was being said, even
:06:53. > :06:54.in the UK, about the arrival of hundreds, thousands of Jewish
:06:55. > :06:57.refugees, there was not a warm welcome at all.
:06:58. > :06:59.On the other hand, Britain was the only European
:07:00. > :07:01.country that took in the Kindertransport children, 10,000 of
:07:02. > :07:02.them altogether. Even America said no.
:07:03. > :07:06.So I think, to this country's credit, the answer at the time was
:07:07. > :07:09.Indeed, but I'm talking about the mood in the country.
:07:10. > :07:14.The Daily Mail in 1939 quoted a leading London magistrate,
:07:15. > :07:16.Herbert Metcalfe, from the old Street Magistrates' Court, saying,
:07:17. > :07:20."The way stateless Jews from Germany are pouring in from every port of
:07:21. > :07:23.this country is becoming an outrage".
:07:24. > :07:26.I wonder if, as a kid, did you feel welcome
:07:27. > :07:33.Since then, I have felt enormously welcome.
:07:34. > :07:36.I think this country has been terrific to me and I shall
:07:37. > :07:42.There may have been some tension is there but I was a bit
:07:43. > :07:44.young and I was not aware of all these things.
:07:45. > :07:49.It's funny, because I think that some rose tinted specs
:07:50. > :07:52.are applied sometimes when we think back to the way the Jewish migration
:07:53. > :07:57.was treated for those Jews lucky enough to get out.
:07:58. > :08:00.Whitehall And The Jews, Louise London's book.
:08:01. > :08:03.She says the process was designed to keep out large
:08:04. > :08:08.numbers of European Jews, perhaps ten times as many as they let in.
:08:09. > :08:11.70,000 were admitted by the outbreak of war,
:08:12. > :08:13.but Jewish associations in
:08:14. > :08:17.Britain had half a million Case files of people who were never
:08:18. > :08:23.And Britain was not perhaps as welcoming
:08:24. > :08:25.as it might have been but
:08:26. > :08:27.then other countries were not welcoming either.
:08:28. > :08:29.And these were very difficult times and the Jews of
:08:30. > :08:31.Europe fled in all directions, for safety.
:08:32. > :08:34.Yes, I'd guess that is really bringing us to today, whether
:08:35. > :08:39.My opening question was about whether there is any
:08:40. > :08:47.Whether all these decades after that persecution of people in the 1930s,
:08:48. > :08:50.whether we really have learned lessons?
:08:51. > :08:54.I think there are many more lessons to
:08:55. > :08:57.be learned and some people don't want to learn them, some people
:08:58. > :09:00.would like to learn them and don't know how to give effect to them.
:09:01. > :09:08.You, if I may say so, to a certain extent you use
:09:09. > :09:12.your personal story in recent weeks and months.
:09:13. > :09:20.Because you led a campaign a very high-profile
:09:21. > :09:22.member of a campaign to persuade the David Cameron government
:09:23. > :09:25.in the UK to let in thousands of children who
:09:26. > :09:27.have found themselves unaccompanied, separated from mum and dad, living
:09:28. > :09:30.in the makeshift camps, migrant refugee camps across Europe.
:09:31. > :09:33.And you made a point of saying, "My life
:09:34. > :09:38.story tells me that we must act to help these children."
:09:39. > :09:40.Well, I did, and I didn't want to make too much
:09:41. > :09:43.of that because I think the argument for bringing in unaccompanied child
:09:44. > :09:47.refugees from Europe stood on its own merits.
:09:48. > :09:50.It didn't depend upon my being the person who was putting
:09:51. > :10:01.But clearly, it helped with the publicity, it helped with the
:10:02. > :10:04.Yes, but it was plain wrong. It was deeply misleading.
:10:05. > :10:07.Because as David Cameron said, with a degree of frustration,
:10:08. > :10:10.it is simply not right to compare the children of the Kindertransport
:10:11. > :10:12.in 1939 with children who are already in Europe.
:10:13. > :10:14.They may be in the so-called jungle camp in Calais,
:10:15. > :10:16.they may be in Slovenia, Slovakia or Hungary,
:10:17. > :10:18.but the children are in Europe
:10:19. > :10:20.and they are not facing a genocidal maniac.
:10:21. > :10:22.And I have always said that there is a difference
:10:23. > :10:24.because clearly, people like me were fleeing
:10:25. > :10:27.The young people in Europe now are not fleeing
:10:28. > :10:29.from the gas chambers, so there is a difference.
:10:30. > :10:32.However, to have young people sleeping in the streets,
:10:33. > :10:37.vulnerable to prostitution, vulnerable to drugs, vulnerable to
:10:38. > :10:41.criminality, that is not a happy situation for young people.
:10:42. > :10:43.So, to that extent, there is a parallel.
:10:44. > :10:47.Tell me, because you did a lot of research in pushing this campaign
:10:48. > :10:52.forward, how many unaccompanied children are there today in Europe?
:10:53. > :10:56.Some of them have come from Syria, some from different situations.
:10:57. > :10:58.For example, sub-Saharan Africa, from
:10:59. > :11:00.Eritrea, from all sorts of different countries.
:11:01. > :11:04.But how many unaccompanied kids are there?
:11:05. > :11:07.I rely on Save the Children who did a lot of work on this.
:11:08. > :11:10.Originally, we thought there were 26,000.
:11:11. > :11:16.Later estimates suggest 95,000 all over Europe, recently.
:11:17. > :11:18.And what is equally alarming is that 10,000 just disappeared
:11:19. > :11:21.according to Interpol, the police authorities.
:11:22. > :11:25.10,000 just disappeared in Europe, modern Europe.
:11:26. > :11:28.So, whatever David Cameron says, these young people are not safe.
:11:29. > :11:30.When you say "disappeared", what are the authorities suspect has
:11:31. > :11:36.Well, they were registered of course in Italy and
:11:37. > :11:39.elsewhere and they have just gone missing.
:11:40. > :11:44.There was no accommodation for them...
:11:45. > :11:47.There are allegations of organised crime,
:11:48. > :11:52.Is there any evidence that you can provide that
:11:53. > :11:55.the real and present danger for these kids go that far?
:11:56. > :11:57.Well, the fact that 10,000 children have
:11:58. > :12:00.disappeared, for heaven's sake, if one's own children
:12:01. > :12:04.alarming enough, but 10,000 children have just disappeared in Europe.
:12:05. > :12:14.We are an advanced continent, this should not happen.
:12:15. > :12:16.You know, one of the fundamental distinctions made in
:12:17. > :12:18.international law today across the world is that there
:12:19. > :12:20.is a difference between refugees, those who are
:12:21. > :12:22.forcibly displaced, who leave their countries of origin
:12:23. > :12:29.because of conflict, and those who are defined
:12:30. > :12:31.as migrants, economic migrants, who voluntarily left their homes
:12:32. > :12:37.To you, doesn't matter whether these children are
:12:38. > :12:50.from countries where there is war also be from countries where people
:12:51. > :12:55.-- where there is war or simply from countries where people fled to make
:12:56. > :12:58.a better life somewhere else. Well, I think at one level, no,
:12:59. > :13:01.they are all children. To put it bluntly, do children
:13:02. > :13:04.from Syria who have fled war have greater rights
:13:05. > :13:16.to a haven in the UK war have greater rights to a haven
:13:17. > :13:19.in the UK and children from I think in terms of
:13:20. > :13:24.the United Nations, in terms of the Geneva Convention, then
:13:25. > :13:27.people who have a well founded fear of persecution for race, or
:13:28. > :13:30.religion, a fear of war, a fear of torture, they are the ones
:13:31. > :13:33.who should be offered safety. I think the difficulty
:13:34. > :13:36.with the present migrant crisis is that there
:13:37. > :13:38.is a confusion between the two. And I think we have to say
:13:39. > :13:41.to people, we are willing as a country to accept children, young
:13:42. > :13:44.people, who are under the Geneva For others, it's bad luck, but we
:13:45. > :13:48.can't take everybody. Yes.
:13:49. > :13:49.The people... And this is primarily the government
:13:50. > :13:52.and supporters of the government who were very suspicious of your
:13:53. > :13:54.campaign to take thousands of unaccompanied children
:13:55. > :13:56.into the UK, they said were going to make the problem worse
:13:57. > :14:00.because you would encourage both children, their parents
:14:01. > :14:01.and people traffickers by sending a signal
:14:02. > :14:03.that if kids were sent on boats alone to
:14:04. > :14:07.Europe, they would in the end find an open door to countries
:14:08. > :14:09.they really wanted First of all, there is
:14:10. > :14:14.no evidence that this The government has
:14:15. > :14:17.said so, but there is Secondly, one has to set
:14:18. > :14:21.the plight of the children, sleeping in the street,
:14:22. > :14:22.in railway sections, against the possibility some
:14:23. > :14:24.others might come here. And thirdly, the government,
:14:25. > :14:26.in giving effect to the change in the law
:14:27. > :14:29.which I helped to give effect to, the government has said
:14:30. > :14:33.they will not take any young people who were not in Europe before
:14:34. > :14:36.the 20th of March this year. Thereby stopping any
:14:37. > :14:38.subsequently coming. Let me quote you the words
:14:39. > :14:54.of Tory MP Roger Gale. He said to you, "I believe Lord Dubs
:14:55. > :14:56.a good bloke and his heart is in the right place, but..."
:14:57. > :15:02.Because he said it's possible that as a result of this initiative
:15:03. > :15:04.that you pushed forward, people traffickers will bring more people
:15:05. > :15:07.across the Aegean Sea, more people will die as a result.
:15:08. > :15:09.And if that happens, some of the responsibility
:15:10. > :15:18.for those deaths will have to be taken by those who have taken to
:15:19. > :15:23.-- those who have chosen to pursue this course of action.
:15:24. > :15:25.To which I say, that if people say no
:15:26. > :15:29.to these young people, do we say we will leave them lying in the
:15:30. > :15:30.streets, sleeping in gutters and so on?
:15:31. > :15:32.Do we say we don't care at all
:15:33. > :15:36.as a country, or do we say that at least some of them should be
:15:37. > :15:39.Now, I have had enormous responses to my
:15:40. > :15:41.efforts to change the immigration law and
:15:42. > :15:45.Yes, but that's because you appeal to sentiment.
:15:46. > :15:47.And we all can echo your sentiment and
:15:48. > :15:50.your good instincts, but in the end, politics is about tough decisions.
:15:51. > :15:52.It's not just about following your sentiment.
:15:53. > :15:54.No, politics is about heart and head.
:15:55. > :15:57.Not one, not the other, but the two together.
:15:58. > :16:00.And I think the two should be operating jointly.
:16:01. > :16:03.And I believe that what we are proposing, what is being
:16:04. > :16:07.proposed, is logical, its humanitarian and I don't think it
:16:08. > :16:12.will bring in a stream of other people anyway.
:16:13. > :16:14.Do you never doubt that you have actually put your
:16:15. > :16:18.heart into prominent a place and that you have not been as coldly
:16:19. > :16:25.rational as leaders and politicians actually have a duty to be?
:16:26. > :16:29.I have argued that it does not depend upon
:16:30. > :16:33.me that the amendment is being moved, it does not depend on my
:16:34. > :16:37.background, that helps emotionally, but it doesn't depend on it.
:16:38. > :16:39.We are looking at the plight of young people.
:16:40. > :16:42.Do we say we won't let these kids sleep in the streets, we won't
:16:43. > :16:45.care what happens to them, whether they get into
:16:46. > :16:47.criminality and prostitution? Do we say that?
:16:48. > :16:50.Do we turn away from it or do we say as a
:16:51. > :16:53.country, we have humanitarian instincts and a responsibility?
:16:54. > :16:56.You have talked about 95,000 unaccompanied
:16:57. > :17:00.kids really struggling to stay alive in the Europe of today.
:17:01. > :17:03.You know as well as I do that Britain is
:17:04. > :17:09.For example, the local councils who would have to look after
:17:10. > :17:10.unaccompanied children if they came to this
:17:11. > :17:15.country, one example, the
:17:16. > :17:18.County of Norfolk, it has 1000 children it is struggling to find
:17:19. > :17:20.foster carers for in Norfolk itself today.
:17:21. > :17:23.So who do you think is going to take responsibility for looking
:17:24. > :17:29.after the thousands of children that you want to bring in?
:17:30. > :17:31.I have never said that they should all come to Britain.
:17:32. > :17:38.The original amendment which would change later on was 3000.
:17:39. > :17:44.It wasn't even our share of the total, it was less than that.
:17:45. > :17:48.People have said to me, why couldn't you be more generous?
:17:49. > :17:51.I have said, we are trying to win an argument here
:17:52. > :17:56.Let's leave aside the specific issue of the children
:17:57. > :17:59.which you have worked so hard on and think about the bigger
:18:00. > :18:02.picture in Europe and thinking about people on the move.
:18:03. > :18:04.Europe has been on the front line of the particular
:18:05. > :18:06.movement from Syria but other countries to, through Turkey,
:18:07. > :18:15.Germany last year took more than 1 million people in an 500,000
:18:16. > :18:18.of them pretty much sought asylum in Germany.
:18:19. > :18:21.Britain, over the next five years, after 2020, has pledged to
:18:22. > :18:28.You have spent your life in this country.
:18:29. > :18:30.You said at the beginning of this interview you were
:18:31. > :18:31.very proud of Britain's humanitarian record.
:18:32. > :18:34.What do you make of the commitment Britain is making today?
:18:35. > :18:38.We are taking 20,000 vulnerable Syrians
:18:39. > :18:42.The government recently said they would take a few more,
:18:43. > :18:45.including children, from the camps in the region.
:18:46. > :18:48.I think it is still a small response.
:18:49. > :18:50.It says something when Germany becomes the conscience
:18:51. > :18:54.And Sweden, in particular, those two countries.
:18:55. > :18:57.I'm not saying everybody should should come
:18:58. > :19:00.I think there should be a measured response.
:19:01. > :19:03.It should be done on the basis of being
:19:04. > :19:07.And by the way, in relation to what you said a
:19:08. > :19:09.minute ago, I have had people writing to me, e-mailing me,
:19:10. > :19:14.I know there is a lot of pressure in Kent and possibly in one or two
:19:15. > :19:17.other counties, but there are people in Britain who are willing to become
:19:18. > :19:21.They would have to be monitored and vetted by the local
:19:22. > :19:24.authorities are but I think people would respond if we ask them to.
:19:25. > :19:27.You were a politician for years... I hope I still am!
:19:28. > :19:31.The difference now from then is that you don't need votes any more
:19:32. > :19:35.You used to need votes and I just wonder
:19:36. > :19:38.whether Alf Dubs who needed votes might be different from the Alf Dubs
:19:39. > :19:41.who sits in comfort in the House of Lords.
:19:42. > :19:43.Because in the end, this is about politics.
:19:44. > :19:46.You must look in the opinion polls as well as I do, and
:19:47. > :19:51.I'm not just talking about the UK where scepticism about immigration,
:19:52. > :19:55.the numbers of migrants in the country is on the rise, but you look
:19:56. > :19:57.right across Europe from France to the eastern European countries
:19:58. > :19:59.like Hungary and Poland and many others,
:20:00. > :20:09.Europeans are becoming increasingly sceptical and actually I was a
:20:10. > :20:13.-- and actually, I would say, Ilic a fearful about the levels of
:20:14. > :20:15.immigration. And you have to, as a politician,
:20:16. > :20:18.do you not, factor that First of all, I think
:20:19. > :20:25.the House of Lords should be elected, but that argument
:20:26. > :20:28.isfor another day. And the reason we should be elected
:20:29. > :20:34.is that we should be And I still, I hope sincerely
:20:35. > :20:38.that I still behave as if I was accountable to local
:20:39. > :20:40.people in the local I hope I don't say anything
:20:41. > :20:44.in politics against that. Be that as it may,
:20:45. > :20:46.please address my point. Look at the rise of
:20:47. > :20:48.the AFD party in Germany. Look at the fact that in Poland,
:20:49. > :20:51.you have a government that is frankly very anti-immigrant,
:20:52. > :20:54.even more so in Hungary. Look at the fact that fences,
:20:55. > :20:56.razor wire fences, new walls are going up in this continent
:20:57. > :20:59.that is supposedly committed in the Schengen area to
:21:00. > :21:01.freedom of movement. And your approach to the refugee
:21:02. > :21:05.and migrant problem does not Things are changing, but there
:21:06. > :21:09.is still a strong humanitarian Yes, but look at
:21:10. > :21:16.the polls in Germany. Many German thing that was the wrong
:21:17. > :21:18.policy and far too many. But I think those of us who believe
:21:19. > :21:21.in humanitarian traditions and It's our job to speak
:21:22. > :21:25.out and say that But you just told me you also have
:21:26. > :21:29.to listen to the people. So you can't be paternalistic
:21:30. > :21:37.and tell the people that they have to keep
:21:38. > :21:39.taking more and more. One has to listen to people
:21:40. > :21:43.and also persuade them. All I can say to you is something I
:21:44. > :21:48.said a few minutes ago. I'm delighted at the number
:21:49. > :21:50.of positive responses I have I have had very few
:21:51. > :21:54.and the few that they were very anonymous, I have
:21:55. > :21:56.had very few critical letters and the ones
:21:57. > :21:57.that were critical of those saying
:21:58. > :22:00.we have a lot of pressure on local Of course we have, but we are a rich
:22:01. > :22:16.country to deal with that. I just wonder, whether you fear, and
:22:17. > :22:21.you as a Jewish boy, coming to the UK in 1939, have reason to reflect
:22:22. > :22:24.on this. I wonder if you fear that because of the tensions around the
:22:25. > :22:31.whole immigration debate in Europe today, that there is a new danger of
:22:32. > :22:35.a surge of extreme sentiment. Nationalists, perhaps in a phobic
:22:36. > :22:40.sentiment, taking root in today's Europe. We always have to be aware
:22:41. > :22:45.of such dangers and we have seen some of it in some of the countries
:22:46. > :22:50.that we have mentioned. We have to speak out against it. But as far as
:22:51. > :22:55.refugee children are concerned, as far as I can tell from the messages
:22:56. > :23:00.I have had, positively supportive of that. So it is not just the job of
:23:01. > :23:04.politicians to listen, it is also to give a lead, to say this is the
:23:05. > :23:10.right thing, will you support me in that? I want to finish off by going
:23:11. > :23:14.into your experience. I can't think of many people who have watched this
:23:15. > :23:20.debate about how to treat people on the move for longer than you. Today,
:23:21. > :23:26.do you feel a pessimist or an optimist about human nature. As
:23:27. > :23:34.Nicholas Winterton said to me the importance of ethics in human
:23:35. > :23:38.society. I think I am more optimistic than pessimistic. I think
:23:39. > :23:42.they reflect the instinct of many people in this country. Despite what
:23:43. > :23:45.you said about Hungary and other countries. I think in Britain we
:23:46. > :23:59.have a humanitarian tradition which is still alive today. Do you think
:24:00. > :24:03.Nicholas Winton would be supportive today? I think you would be, he was
:24:04. > :24:09.a great man and I owe my life to him. I think he would be saying this
:24:10. > :24:12.is the way forward. Alf Dubs, thank you very much for being on Hardtalk.