:00:00. > :00:11.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:12. > :00:18.Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi. No boots on the ground is
:00:19. > :00:21.often heard in discussions about western interventions but President
:00:22. > :00:26.Obama has committed to sending many more US special forces to Syria.
:00:27. > :00:32.What is their role and do they operate under different rules from
:00:33. > :00:35.conventional forces? My guest is Admiral William McRaven, who was
:00:36. > :00:40.commander of US special operations, he is also the man who prepared the
:00:41. > :01:06.mission that killed Osama Bin Laden five years ago.
:01:07. > :01:18.Admiral William McRaven, in Texas, welcome to HARDtalk. In a nutshell,
:01:19. > :01:22.what makes special forces special? Well, they are special by virtue of
:01:23. > :01:26.the fact that our specially selected, specially trained and
:01:27. > :01:31.specially equipped. -- they are. I tell people that the special forces
:01:32. > :01:38.soldiers and marines are no braver, no more patriarch at, they just have
:01:39. > :01:40.a niche in terms of special operations and that they are
:01:41. > :01:44.specially selected to do a very difficult mission. That is what
:01:45. > :01:51.makes them unique from the broader forces. They operate in a more
:01:52. > :01:55.independent way. You are a former -- will former US captain Matt
:01:56. > :01:58.Gallagher said although Congress hold pursestrings decisions about
:01:59. > :02:02.individual missions at our special operations are not put before them
:02:03. > :02:08.for approval. There is less congressional oversight, is in
:02:09. > :02:12.there? No, I think it is a false narrative -- isn't there? There is
:02:13. > :02:16.probably more congressional oversight or special operations
:02:17. > :02:21.missions than conventional missions. Every special operations mission
:02:22. > :02:26.that happens in a theatre of war is managed by the war commander, so
:02:27. > :02:33.the... In Afghanistan it was managed by the manager there, at the same
:02:34. > :02:39.for Iraq. There are routine special operations that occur in a theatre
:02:40. > :02:43.of war. When emission occurs outside the theatre of war it goes up
:02:44. > :02:47.through the chain of command. In the US military, the secretary of
:02:48. > :02:51.defence, the president of the United States. There is a lot of oversight,
:02:52. > :02:58.certainly up the chain of command in the US military. And in a emission
:02:59. > :03:02.has -- if a emission has congressional oversight, or requires
:03:03. > :03:06.it, it gets it, so there is more congressional oversight of special
:03:07. > :03:10.operations missions. Let's look at what they do. Let's take the Middle
:03:11. > :03:16.East, Syria, President Obama announced there would be 250 more
:03:17. > :03:20.special forces, adding to the 50 already there -- a mission. And we
:03:21. > :03:27.also have some in Iraq. They are boots on the ground effectively, are
:03:28. > :03:31.they not? They certainly are. And do you think that as Matt Lee from
:03:32. > :03:36.associated press, when he said to US State Department spokesman John
:03:37. > :03:40.Kirby, in April when this was made, the point is he says for months and
:03:41. > :03:45.months the mantra from the President and everyone in the administration
:03:46. > :03:51.has been no boots on the ground, does he have a point? -- Associated
:03:52. > :03:54.Press. I don't want to talk about how the president presents the
:03:55. > :03:58.information. The fact is, when you have soldiers on the ground, in
:03:59. > :04:05.Syria or it up, you have boots on the ground -- Iraq. The distinction
:04:06. > :04:10.is what are the boots on the ground doing in terms of their mission,
:04:11. > :04:14.special operations missions? The narrative coming out of the White
:04:15. > :04:20.House and coming out of the US I think is consistent and has been
:04:21. > :04:24.consistent. The missions that the special operations forces do are
:04:25. > :04:29.very closely regulated up to the president of the United States. The
:04:30. > :04:33.point I ask you, you say these are boots on the ground, whereas a
:04:34. > :04:37.veteran journalist is saying that the mantra has been, from the Obama
:04:38. > :04:42.administration, no boots on the ground. So it would seem to suggest
:04:43. > :04:46.that you are saying that the Obama administration perhaps shouldn't be
:04:47. > :04:50.saying no boots on the ground, because that is what they are. I am
:04:51. > :04:55.not saying that at all. The fact is you have troops on the ground. So
:04:56. > :05:03.that fact is undeniable. The mission that these troops conduct is where
:05:04. > :05:06.you get into the debate. That is a debate for the president of the
:05:07. > :05:11.United States and the people of the United States to engage in. It is
:05:12. > :05:16.certainly not my place to make that call. What I can tell you is or
:05:17. > :05:23.missions conducted our and have careful oversight. -- are. Would you
:05:24. > :05:31.say they are involved in a combat role? The New York Times in December
:05:32. > :05:37.said American officials resort to linguistic contortion to mask the
:05:38. > :05:41.special forces' combat role. You cannot deny they are in combat. When
:05:42. > :05:47.people are shooting at you, and you are shooting back, then you are in a
:05:48. > :05:53.combat situation. So, they are in a combat situation? Certainly. Could
:05:54. > :05:58.they be doing more in a combat role in these countries that they go
:05:59. > :06:03.into, like Syria, Iraq? Well, I think they are doing a lot. I mean,
:06:04. > :06:07.you can see every day in the press the missions that special operations
:06:08. > :06:14.forces are conducting. I would add people believe it is only special
:06:15. > :06:21.operations forces. We refer to them as SOF, special operations forces.
:06:22. > :06:24.They are not alone. They have logistic support on the ground.
:06:25. > :06:29.Special operations forces cannot do these missions alone. There has to
:06:30. > :06:35.be a larger support network to help them out. So, you know, a lot of
:06:36. > :06:38.times people want to look at this as only special operations mission. It
:06:39. > :06:44.is a US military mission and with the support of a great coalition.
:06:45. > :06:51.Sure, but that approach has been criticised by, for example, senior
:06:52. > :06:55.respected defence analysts adviser who told us President Obama has not
:06:56. > :06:59.provided the resources and willingness to commit special forces
:07:00. > :07:02.in the forward areas where casualties are possible to allow
:07:03. > :07:08.them to be fully effective, and he has placed too many restrictions on
:07:09. > :07:11.support from other US land and air forces. Far too often he has
:07:12. > :07:18.selected options which do too little too late. Do you agree with him? I
:07:19. > :07:22.don't know him but what I will tell you is the president gets great
:07:23. > :07:24.advice from his commanders, from special operations command is the
:07:25. > :07:32.president gets great advice from his commanders, from special operations
:07:33. > :07:37.commanders on the ground. The advice they provide to the secretary of
:07:38. > :07:43.defence and the President is what he will follow. What you see right now
:07:44. > :07:48.in the campaign in Syria and Iraq come to rid them of ISIS, ISIL, I
:07:49. > :07:53.know it is a very well thought out plan. The President has been
:07:54. > :08:00.supportive of that. But do you think that the idea of sending in proper
:08:01. > :08:03.ground troops in a combat role, conventional forces, more special
:08:04. > :08:07.operations, is an idea that is gaining traction masse in one
:08:08. > :08:14.presidential debate in the US Ted Cruz said we need to put whatever
:08:15. > :08:19.ground power is needed -- traction? Donald Trump said, I will listen to
:08:20. > :08:25.US generals but I have heard numbers of 20,000 -30,000. We really have no
:08:26. > :08:29.choice. Again, I think, with all due respect to Senator Ted Cruz and
:08:30. > :08:34.Donald Trump, I think you need to go to the source, and the source is the
:08:35. > :08:36.commander of the US central command, the commander of US special
:08:37. > :08:40.operations command and the military chain of command which takes a very
:08:41. > :08:44.hard look at all of these missions. And I know they are providing the
:08:45. > :08:47.very best advice and counsel to the president of the United States and
:08:48. > :08:50.he is taking that advice and counsel. So I am not in a position
:08:51. > :08:55.to tell you exactly what the tactical situation looks like on the
:08:56. > :08:58.ground. So it is easy to sit back in the US and second guess a lot of
:08:59. > :09:03.these things. What I would tell you is the support the military forces
:09:04. > :09:07.are receiving from the White House and from the department of defence
:09:08. > :09:15.is the support they need to get the job done. But what would you be
:09:16. > :09:19.advising the Obama at administration if you were commander of special
:09:20. > :09:23.operations -- Department of Defence. -- Obama administration. You just a
:09:24. > :09:27.downer couple of years ago. Numbers, for instance, 300 250 in Syria,
:09:28. > :09:34.would you suggest more? What would you say it -- 300 to 50. Because I
:09:35. > :09:38.am out of uniform I am not prepared to answer. You have to know what the
:09:39. > :09:42.tactical situation is on the ground. A lot of the pundits who like to
:09:43. > :09:46.talk about how they would do things don't have an appreciation for
:09:47. > :09:50.exactly where ISIL is located, or for the support of the coalition, or
:09:51. > :09:54.an appreciation for what the military forces have on the ground
:09:55. > :10:00.and how they are doing business, so you have to be careful about making
:10:01. > :10:02.assumptions or prognostics about how to do things without the
:10:03. > :10:08.understanding of what's happening on the ground. You are at the
:10:09. > :10:12.University of Texas, you are in an academic role, talking to a lot of
:10:13. > :10:18.people, and I put to you what Donald Trump and Ted Cruz said, we've also
:10:19. > :10:25.had a public opinion poll which is CNN joint OIC, which says 53% of
:10:26. > :10:30.people in the States who would favour sending in ground troops like
:10:31. > :10:35.in Syria to stabilise the situation and take on Islamic State. From what
:10:36. > :10:40.you are hearing, is there are more of an appetite for this? After the
:10:41. > :10:45.Iraq War, costly in terms of money and lives, there was a diminished
:10:46. > :10:52.desire to see that kind of ground force go in? Well, what I know is
:10:53. > :10:56.the president of the United States and the secretary of defence and the
:10:57. > :11:02.entire national security apparatus in the US is committed to defeating
:11:03. > :11:06.ISIL. And so I think as you look at what is happening on the ground and
:11:07. > :11:10.whether we have the resources, the president and secretary of defence
:11:11. > :11:15.provide those resources, as military commanders are asking for it. So I
:11:16. > :11:20.do believe there is more of an appetite because when you begin to
:11:21. > :11:29.see the bombings in Paris and in Brussels you realise that ISIL's
:11:30. > :11:31.reach is probably broader than anticipated, and so the faster we
:11:32. > :11:37.eradicate and defeat them the better of the world will be. So this is not
:11:38. > :11:40.only something the president of the US understands, it is something the
:11:41. > :11:44.international coalition that is part of the effort in Syria and Iraq,
:11:45. > :11:51.they also understand. You said you believe that there is more of an
:11:52. > :11:56.appetite to send in ground troops. Would you say at it more about it?
:11:57. > :12:02.Could there be substantial numbers going into Syria, for instance? Yes,
:12:03. > :12:04.I won't let you pin me down, because the fact is, I don't know the
:12:05. > :12:11.tactical situation on the ground. So, what I know is that commanders
:12:12. > :12:14.are providing that information to the secretary of defence, to the
:12:15. > :12:18.president of the United States, collectively taking a hard look of
:12:19. > :12:21.this and making the best decisions they can. In terms of specific
:12:22. > :12:25.numbers I am not in a position to answer that question. When you
:12:26. > :12:29.stepped down in 2014 you said we are in the golden age of special
:12:30. > :12:32.operations. You pointed out that US special forces are in many
:12:33. > :12:38.countries, as we have discussed, Syria and Iraq, also the
:12:39. > :12:42.Philippines, taking on the fight, Boko Haram in Nigeria, that kind of
:12:43. > :12:49.thing. What did you mean by the fact that it is the golden age? Certainly
:12:50. > :12:53.since 9/11 what we have seen is a recognition of what the special
:12:54. > :12:57.operations forces... Not just US special operations forces. It is
:12:58. > :13:01.collectively be special operations forces throughout Europe, the Arab
:13:02. > :13:04.coalition, joining us in Iraq and those it had joined us in
:13:05. > :13:09.Afghanistan. Special operations really kind of came into their own
:13:10. > :13:13.after 9/11 because there was a recognition of what they could do
:13:14. > :13:16.against this threat that was both Al-Qaeda and the broader insurgency
:13:17. > :13:19.threat. In order to deal with an insurgency you really have to get
:13:20. > :13:25.down with the people. The US army green beret I would contend are some
:13:26. > :13:28.of the best in the world at understanding how to engage with
:13:29. > :13:32.tribal leaders and how to build their trust and organise the tribes
:13:33. > :13:35.against the insurgent groups -- Green Beret. This was absolutely
:13:36. > :13:41.required as we were fighting in both Iraq and Afghanistan. And again, the
:13:42. > :13:44.coalition partners joined us in that. That is what special
:13:45. > :13:52.operations forces, in particular special forces do. After September
:13:53. > :13:56.11 we have seen many situations, attacks, Terra attack. We've seen
:13:57. > :14:01.what happened in Paris, Brussels, all over the world. There are too
:14:02. > :14:06.many demands on the special operations, and Americans, be they
:14:07. > :14:09.from a nation where the attack has happened -- terror attacks. There
:14:10. > :14:15.are too many demands on them. They cannot cope with this. Things can go
:14:16. > :14:19.wrong. I think that is not correct either. I don't think there are too
:14:20. > :14:24.many demands on them. I think you need to understand there are a lot
:14:25. > :14:28.of threats out there. But there are sufficient forces to deal with those
:14:29. > :14:33.threats as long as the policy lines itself with putting those special
:14:34. > :14:36.operations forces in a position. Whether they are US special
:14:37. > :14:40.operations forces or European special operations forces, as long
:14:41. > :14:42.as policymakers decide it is the appropriate policy I think there is
:14:43. > :14:48.a vision special operations forces to deal with those threats.
:14:49. > :14:57.You have talked about the pressures of the job, the suicides among
:14:58. > :15:02.special Ops. The person who succeeded you sought counselling in
:15:03. > :15:06.the past. He has admitted to that. When you talk about precious in the
:15:07. > :15:12.job, is it something you would admit to? Have you sought counselling at
:15:13. > :15:15.any time in your career? What I can tell you is anybody who has been
:15:16. > :15:20.engaged in the kind of warfare we have seen since 9-11, and this is
:15:21. > :15:24.not just special operations, that anybody engaged in this war since
:15:25. > :15:31.then has been changed. You can't be around combat and see your friends
:15:32. > :15:35.killed, severely injured, and distilling the impact on their
:15:36. > :15:40.families, which are under stress. -- and seeing. Combat wings a level of
:15:41. > :15:44.stress with it. In the United States, we had not seen that for
:15:45. > :15:51.some time. But we recognise that there is a stress on what is a
:15:52. > :15:57.voluntary force. We transition to an all volunteer force several decades
:15:58. > :16:01.ago, and we have the finest military the nice dates has ever seen. --
:16:02. > :16:06.United States. But is there pressure? Yes, and we are doing
:16:07. > :16:10.everything we can to address those pressures. Almost talked about
:16:11. > :16:16.mission was the elite Navy Seal team that you prepared five years ago to
:16:17. > :16:22.kill Osama Bin Laden. From your point of view, was that a total
:16:23. > :16:26.success? I think the mission was absolutely a success. It was to go
:16:27. > :16:34.in and I that feel or capture Osama Bin Laden, and we did that. I don't
:16:35. > :16:37.think anybody going into the mission but -- thought this would
:16:38. > :16:41.fundamentally change the fight against al-Qaeda, but what we found
:16:42. > :16:45.out as a result of the mission, as we could pull intelligence from the
:16:46. > :16:50.target, is that Martin was much more engaged operationally than we had
:16:51. > :16:53.anticipated -- Osama Bin Laden. We thought at this point you might just
:16:54. > :16:59.be a figurehead who sometimes put out messages. But the intelligence
:17:00. > :17:02.shows he was continuing to be heavily involved in the operational
:17:03. > :17:08.aspects of al-Qaeda. There is no question in my mind the mission was
:17:09. > :17:11.a success. What was the most important part was that the United
:17:12. > :17:15.States with our allies and others said we have to bring this man to
:17:16. > :17:21.justice. It was not about revenge by justice. So part of this mission was
:17:22. > :17:25.to ensure that no matter how many years had passed by, we were going
:17:26. > :17:32.to bring Osama Bin Laden and others to justice. What about the Pakistani
:17:33. > :17:40.doctor who helped to in the mission in Pakistan, because he is serving a
:17:41. > :17:44.long prison sentence on what your supporters say are politically
:17:45. > :17:50.motivated charges. His lawyer says that he has been abandoned at the
:17:51. > :17:55.United States. He says so far the US have not shown their support. What
:17:56. > :18:00.do you think about that? Have you spoken up on his behalf? Know, and I
:18:01. > :18:07.will not get into the details about the doctor. I think that is
:18:08. > :18:10.inappropriate. Suffice to say the United States is doing everything we
:18:11. > :18:17.can to resolve the issue. All right. You said the mission to kill some of
:18:18. > :18:21.the modern has helped in terms of intelligence, but look where we are
:18:22. > :18:31.now -- Osama Bin Laden. But look where we are now. Now his son is
:18:32. > :18:37.calling people to jihad and someone. What did the mission achieved? The
:18:38. > :18:44.threat of terror is still alive one, and so is al-Qaeda. Again, getting
:18:45. > :18:48.back to the point I made, you have to bring these men that bring harm
:18:49. > :18:53.upon the United States or Paris or Belgium, you have to bring them to
:18:54. > :18:57.justice. This mission was a lot about bringing them to justice. I
:18:58. > :19:01.don't think any of us thought it would fundamentally change the fight
:19:02. > :19:05.against al-Qaeda, but over the course of many years we have been
:19:06. > :19:11.fighting al-Qaeda, the al-Qaeda base, which was in Pakistan, has
:19:12. > :19:17.been greatly diminished. The potential threat of al-Qaeda as we
:19:18. > :19:22.originally knew it, I think, has been diminished significantly. Are
:19:23. > :19:28.their franchises out there we take a look at ISIL and someone? They are
:19:29. > :19:33.out there, and this will be a persistent and generational fight --
:19:34. > :19:37.and so on. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not been part of it.
:19:38. > :19:41.We will not resolve this in the next couple of years. It will take a long
:19:42. > :19:45.time. It will take an international effort to make sure we are
:19:46. > :19:51.successful. And there are limits to what military efforts can achieve.
:19:52. > :19:55.You have to issue the political track, such as the United States and
:19:56. > :20:01.Russia are trying to find some solution between the opposition and
:20:02. > :20:07.government in Damascus in Syria? It is more than a political and
:20:08. > :20:11.military effort. We have to address the radical ideology out there, and
:20:12. > :20:16.that has to do with our narrative. We need be moderate imams. We need
:20:17. > :20:20.those great Muslims around the world to join with us and fight the
:20:21. > :20:25.scourge. It is absolutely more than a military problem. You were also
:20:26. > :20:32.involved in the operation to track down Saddam Hussein, so you had this
:20:33. > :20:36.long career. The Defence Secretary Chuck Kabel said if ever the full
:20:37. > :20:40.history of your career was written, it would need to be heavily redacted
:20:41. > :20:46.because so much of it took place in the black arena, in other words in
:20:47. > :20:51.secret. Secrecy is very important to the nature of the kind of operations
:20:52. > :20:56.that special forces carry out, isn't it? Secrecy is certainly important
:20:57. > :21:00.for you carry out a mission, and if it becomes open about certain
:21:01. > :21:04.tactics, techniques and procedures used, you have to be careful about
:21:05. > :21:08.making sure they don't get in the open as well. You may want to use
:21:09. > :21:14.one of those the next time you conduct a mission. Clearly secrecy
:21:15. > :21:17.is important, but in today's environment, as soon as a mission is
:21:18. > :21:24.conducted, eggs of social media and the way the press is in a 24-hour
:21:25. > :21:32.news cycle, invariably that mission will be found out -- because of
:21:33. > :21:36.social media. Was that a matter of regret to you, what happened with
:21:37. > :21:40.the Osama Bin Laden mission? I figure was important for the people
:21:41. > :21:44.of the United States and around the world to recognise they had been an
:21:45. > :21:49.effort going on since nine -11 to get Osama Bin Laden, and we would
:21:50. > :21:53.not give up. The fact that the mission came out after maybe second,
:21:54. > :21:57.I think it was entirely appropriate for the president to tell the
:21:58. > :22:01.American people we had brought in to justice. -- made the second. I think
:22:02. > :22:05.it was important for the international community to
:22:06. > :22:08.understand that we will not give up when people attack the United
:22:09. > :22:14.States. I have no regrets that the story of getting Osama Bin Laden
:22:15. > :22:19.Gothard. Do you think the United States is expected to do too much,
:22:20. > :22:23.cook the dinner, and the international community is expected
:22:24. > :22:29.to serve the dish? Would you like the international community to do
:22:30. > :22:33.more? Militarily, that is. I think the international committee is doing
:22:34. > :22:40.more than people realise. We have a strong coalition in the Middle East.
:22:41. > :22:44.Our allies, our European allies, and many Arab allies, with this in a
:22:45. > :22:48.number of places in the world. We have had a great coalition since
:22:49. > :22:52.9-11. The number of Allied forces I have worked with in the Iraqi and if
:22:53. > :22:57.they understand our almost too numerous to mention -- Afghanistan.
:22:58. > :23:01.You said during my past several years in uniform I have watched in
:23:02. > :23:04.disbelief how lawmakers in the US treated service chiefs and other
:23:05. > :23:10.senior officers during congressional testimony. They were men of
:23:11. > :23:15.incredible integrity yet some makers showed no respect for their decades
:23:16. > :23:18.of service -- lawmakers. I know you are looking at the case of one of
:23:19. > :23:22.your former colleagues, but in general terms, why did you say that?
:23:23. > :23:28.Are you worried about the relationship it when politicians and
:23:29. > :23:31.the military? We have excellent civilian leaders, and I have always
:23:32. > :23:35.been very proud of the civilian leaders I have worked for was that
:23:36. > :23:41.they have been honourable men and women. My point in the article is
:23:42. > :23:46.what makes the United States' military grade is the fact that we
:23:47. > :23:50.understand every day we wake up that we work for our civilian leaders.
:23:51. > :23:54.Our civilian chain of command, civilian lawmakers, and they have
:23:55. > :24:02.been incredibly supportive of the United States military. This was
:24:03. > :24:05.centred around one case, but the relationship between the United
:24:06. > :24:08.States military and our civilian leaders must continue to be strong
:24:09. > :24:13.as we move forward. That is what I was offering in article. Admiral
:24:14. > :24:16.William McRaven, in Texas, thank you very much for coming on high torque.
:24:17. > :24:39.-- HARDtalk. Thank you. Clearing skies after Sunday's
:24:40. > :24:42.showers, allowing temperatures to drop, and there will be a chill
:24:43. > :24:46.in the air for some of us as Monday And you can see,
:24:47. > :24:50.across the northern half of Britain,