:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sakur. The far right is on the rice
:00:20. > :00:23.in Germany -- rise in goichl. Opinion polls and recent regional
:00:24. > :00:28.elections suggest the AfD, Alternative For Germany, is winning
:00:29. > :00:31.significant support with its anti-immigration populist message.
:00:32. > :00:36.The country's mainstream politicians have responded by branding the party
:00:37. > :00:42.xenophobic and dangerous. My guest is AfD deputy leader and member of
:00:43. > :00:47.the European Parliament, Beatrix von Storch. Could the AfD shatter
:00:48. > :01:16.Germany's postwar political consensus?
:01:17. > :01:27.Beatrix von Storch in Brussels, welcome to HARDtalk. Hello. Your
:01:28. > :01:29.party has done remarkably well in recent regional elections,
:01:30. > :01:34.especially considering you really only are three years old. But you
:01:35. > :01:41.are in the end a party of protest, are you not? And when anger and
:01:42. > :01:45.frustration dissipates in Germany, you are likely to disappear? This is
:01:46. > :01:48.what all the major parties hope for. They hope that already for the last
:01:49. > :01:53.three years, and we're... Ever since growing. So, I think this is
:01:54. > :01:58.something which will not work out that way. We have just come out with
:01:59. > :02:02.a whole programme, we just fixed our programme by the end of last month,
:02:03. > :02:06.and we have got several issues which are not tackled by the other
:02:07. > :02:10.parties. We are going for a direct democracy, we want to have
:02:11. > :02:17.referendums in Germany as well, as the one you are facing in Great
:02:18. > :02:20.Britain. On the Brexit. We are tackling the issue of ever-clors
:02:21. > :02:26.union, we want to have the European Union as it was created in the very
:02:27. > :02:30.beginning, we don't want to have a European central state, where we are
:02:31. > :02:35.going to - towards we want to have a euro as a state of sovereign
:02:36. > :02:40.democracies, we are trying to focus again on what is very important for
:02:41. > :02:45.the society, we want to do policy for families, with a father and a
:02:46. > :02:48.mother and a kid, which has been forgotten, especially by our
:02:49. > :02:52.Christian Democratic chancellor. We are going against the euro rescue
:02:53. > :02:56.policy, because we see it does not work. We have made a point on
:02:57. > :03:02.migration, because we said Germany and all of Europe is not able to
:03:03. > :03:07.solve the problems of the world, the civil wars and the wars, and the
:03:08. > :03:11.poverty and all - all over the world by taking all the migrants to
:03:12. > :03:16.Europe. So, just to make that point, it's not protest. What we are doing,
:03:17. > :03:20.but we are coming up with those issues which are not tackled by the
:03:21. > :03:23.other parties, and so this is where we gain support, it's not by
:03:24. > :03:27.protest, it is by our programme. Right. Well, you have come at --
:03:28. > :03:31.covered an awful lot of ground there, from institutional EU
:03:32. > :03:35.policies to economic policies, social conservatism and family
:03:36. > :03:40.policy, and, of course, immigration policy, which we are going to talk
:03:41. > :03:43.about at some length. It seems to me when I talk about a party of
:03:44. > :03:49.protest, what you try to do and have done for three years is latch on to
:03:50. > :03:52.the anger of the day in Germany. Now, three years ago when you were
:03:53. > :03:56.formed the anger of the day was about the Greek bail-out crisis and
:03:57. > :04:01.the fact that German taxpayers did not want to be involved in a
:04:02. > :04:04.bail-out for southern European economic irresponsibility. That was
:04:05. > :04:09.why your party came into being. And you seem to have shifted the ground.
:04:10. > :04:14.You're not really talking about that anymore, you're talking more about
:04:15. > :04:17.issues like immigration. LAUGHTER
:04:18. > :04:21.That's a funny question. You don't think so? You were talking about the
:04:22. > :04:26.anger of the day. We are talking about the problems, what people are
:04:27. > :04:30.facing. People see the problem in Germany being first to rescue the
:04:31. > :04:34.euro, which means rescue the euro area, but not the euro. Anyway
:04:35. > :04:37.that's a different topic. But we are facing the problems people want us
:04:38. > :04:41.to address. And what they miss by all the other parties. So, you can't
:04:42. > :04:45.blame a party for picking up the problems which have not been picked
:04:46. > :04:50.up by the other parties. This is what we do. But my point is you have
:04:51. > :04:57.changed... One of your own founders says that the party - I'm quoting
:04:58. > :05:02.him - has fallen irtreefably into the wrong hands. Yeah, because he
:05:03. > :05:06.was very sad that it was no longer his hands. So, I don't blame him on
:05:07. > :05:10.that. I do understand it on a personal point, but that's not the
:05:11. > :05:14.point. The thing is that we are having different issues and in the
:05:15. > :05:18.beginning it was not only the euro, the euro was the reason why - to
:05:19. > :05:21.forge - the moment why which formed the party, at that moment, because
:05:22. > :05:25.there was no party to address the euro rescue policy in a different
:05:26. > :05:30.way, but there are several other issues which are not being... Um,
:05:31. > :05:34.picked by the other parties. So, there were lots of issues, which
:05:35. > :05:43.needed a new party, and we are facing them. I would put it to you
:05:44. > :05:45.that to many Germans your particular focus on your anti-immigration
:05:46. > :05:51.policy looks extraordinarily cynical. You know, you saw the
:05:52. > :05:56.difficulties the country was facing with a mall migrants coming into
:05:57. > :06:00.Germany last year, and you suddenly ramped up the rhetoric against both
:06:01. > :06:03.immigration, but particularly against Muslim immigrants, and
:06:04. > :06:11.that's what your party is running with today. Well, you see, I'm...
:06:12. > :06:14.Why is not Great Britain taking one point -- 1.5 million Muslim migrants
:06:15. > :06:21.from northern Africa, for example? Why not? Go ahead, do so. But
:06:22. > :06:26.Germany discovered that we are not able to take everyone, and the
:06:27. > :06:30.German society does not want to - we want to help, we are willing to
:06:31. > :06:35.help, we are willing to pay, but what we... The point we make is to
:06:36. > :06:40.say we can't have everyone on the - on our territory. That's - this is
:06:41. > :06:45.not possible. And this is what we are making a point of e yes, that's
:06:46. > :06:48.clear. All the rest of Europe, the polls, the French -- the Poles,
:06:49. > :06:52.French, Scandinavian countries, they are welcome to take all the
:06:53. > :06:56.migrants, what we... Our chancellor, I must admit, invited to come to
:06:57. > :07:01.Europe. But the German society does not want to solve the problem that
:07:02. > :07:04.way. There are different ways fI may say so... We see the problems of the
:07:05. > :07:12.people. There are different ways of having the debate, different tones
:07:13. > :07:16.one can adopt. When on Facebook early in the year, you were asked on
:07:17. > :07:21.Facebook whether German border guards should use weapons against
:07:22. > :07:26.illegal female migrants with children, you gave the clear answer,
:07:27. > :07:30."Yes." I wonder whether you regret that now? Because that's gone down
:07:31. > :07:35.in Germany as something which, I guess, will forever be associated
:07:36. > :07:39.with you. No. Because I made it very clear that it was... It was
:07:40. > :07:44.commented in the wrong way. I made very clear the point and I do
:07:45. > :07:47.understand that you missed that one, because you're not following German
:07:48. > :07:51.media, that I do not want to shoot at anybody. It has been others who
:07:52. > :07:56.have said so, that they wanted to do so. I made the point very clear - we
:07:57. > :08:01.don't want to shoot anybody. What we also say is that we now hand over
:08:02. > :08:09.the border control to Turkey and the one who is shooting and killing
:08:10. > :08:11.people at the border - that's Erdogan and Turk. After car
:08:12. > :08:15.collation you said the use of firearms against children is not
:08:16. > :08:18.permitted but women are a different matter. "The use of weapons against
:08:19. > :08:24.them can be permitted within a narrow legal framework." Do you
:08:25. > :08:28.stand by that? This is... I made it very clear that no-one wants to
:08:29. > :08:32.shoot at anybody, and we can see that the border control, once a
:08:33. > :08:36.country... Who wants to protect the border functions very well without
:08:37. > :08:42.any weapons. We can see that in Scandinavia, we can see that in...
:08:43. > :08:45.In - at the Balkan states, Austria, every country who wants to protect
:08:46. > :08:50.their border can do that without the use of weapons. Every soldier at the
:08:51. > :08:55.border control is wearing weapons. This is the law. But they don't have
:08:56. > :08:59.to use it. What we can see is that the - we can see that the border
:09:00. > :09:03.control functions that way. The only guy in Europe who is using weapons,
:09:04. > :09:08.and it's not only by shooting in the air, but shooting people to death,
:09:09. > :09:12.this is Erdogan. Yes. Forgive me... Let me make that point clear - there
:09:13. > :09:16.were no debate about the shooting that Erdogan started in the very
:09:17. > :09:19.beginning, there was a huge silence, no-one made a comment on that. So,
:09:20. > :09:21.we should stick to those who are shooting and not to those saying,
:09:22. > :09:28."We don't want to shoot at anybody." Yes or no - do you regret the words
:09:29. > :09:31.you used to talk about the possibility that German forces could
:09:32. > :09:37.use weapons against women? Do you regret it? Yes or no? I'm... I made
:09:38. > :09:41.that already very clear and said yes, I didn't want to say that we
:09:42. > :09:44.want to shoot at anybody and I was... I was making a wrong quote
:09:45. > :09:50.then, yes, this is what I said already. OK. But this is weeks or
:09:51. > :09:53.months ago. OK. All right. Let's talk about what's happening now,
:09:54. > :09:57.because Angela Merkel, without making a big fanfare about it, has
:09:58. > :10:03.shifted policy, you know, there are still temporary border checks, she's
:10:04. > :10:06.also talking about a much more strict integration process for the
:10:07. > :10:11.migrants who come to Germany, and are allowed to stay in Germany, they
:10:12. > :10:14.have to full nil various obligations -- fulfil various obligation, the
:10:15. > :10:17.number of years they have to spend before they get residency has been
:10:18. > :10:21.extended. It seems as though the German people support this, the
:10:22. > :10:26.latest polling I have seen suggests that, you know, a clear majority are
:10:27. > :10:30.in favour of the stance right now - this changed stance - that Mrs
:10:31. > :10:37.Merkel has made. So, maybe this issue for you has gone as far as it
:10:38. > :10:41.can? Maybe, you know, your anti-immigrant stance isn't going to
:10:42. > :10:46.get much more traction. You know, we don't... We don't make politics
:10:47. > :10:50.because we want to attract in some stupid way, we want to find
:10:51. > :10:58.solutions for problems, what we are facing, and the problem we are
:10:59. > :11:03.facing is that we had 1.2 million officially registered migrants last
:11:04. > :11:07.year, something like 3, 4, 5, maybe 600,000 not registered, so we don't
:11:08. > :11:13.even know the concrete numbers from last year. We are having something
:11:14. > :11:16.like 200,000-plus this year already. So we don't even know about the
:11:17. > :11:23.concrete numbers, and our point was to say, "We can't take them all."
:11:24. > :11:27.And now, as the society understands that, the chancellor is changing her
:11:28. > :11:32.politics, but what she's doing is handing over the border control to
:11:33. > :11:36.Turkey and always - you know, explaining that we need European
:11:37. > :11:39.solidarity and all the European countries now have to take some
:11:40. > :11:43.quota, some part of the migrants coming to us. You may have your...
:11:44. > :11:46.And all the other countries are yet to do so. You may have your
:11:47. > :11:51.criticisms of Turkey and Mr Erdogan but the fact is since that "one for
:11:52. > :11:54.one" deal was struck between the EU and Turkey, the number of migrants
:11:55. > :11:59.coming into Germany has dwindled. I mean, you have very few coming into
:12:00. > :12:03.Germany today, so in that sense the policy is working. There is another
:12:04. > :12:06.point too - you talk about the challenge for Germany and you
:12:07. > :12:09.suggest, you know, the million and more that came last year are an
:12:10. > :12:13.impossible challenge for Germany. Let me put this to you - the EU
:12:14. > :12:20.Commission's latest figures show your population in your country is
:12:21. > :12:24.shrinking from 81 million in 2013 to just over 70 million in 2016.
:12:25. > :12:31.Goodness me, you need some people from somewhere. Yes. We need people
:12:32. > :12:38.who participate in our labour force and pay into our social systems. We
:12:39. > :12:43.do not need by majority people who we have to pay for in the long run.
:12:44. > :12:47.What Germany - the population in Germany thinks at least is that
:12:48. > :12:51.those people who are coming at the moment will overaall not pay into
:12:52. > :12:55.social systems, but will be paid out of our social system. They are
:12:56. > :12:58.increasing the problem and they are not... Not according, if I may say
:12:59. > :13:04.so, not according to your country's leading economist. The German
:13:05. > :13:07.institute for Economic Research the President says, "The refugees will
:13:08. > :13:11.certainly make an important contribution to the needs that
:13:12. > :13:15.Germany will have in terms of its labour market." Yeah. Yeah. Maybe he
:13:16. > :13:21.says that, bit's not... It doesn't mean that it is true. All those
:13:22. > :13:24.experts have said Greece will be rescued, already in 2010, after the
:13:25. > :13:28.first rescue package, all those experts then said, "We wouldn't need
:13:29. > :13:30.a second reserve accuse package for Greeces", and then the same experts
:13:31. > :13:34.said we wouldn't need a third rescue package, and now they are coming up
:13:35. > :13:39.and saying the fourth rescue package will be enough. So, don't - all
:13:40. > :13:43.those experts are not so much experts, so if they say something is
:13:44. > :13:47.that way, maybe it's the other way around. Another question you just
:13:48. > :13:51.kamg up with, saying that the numbers of migrants coming to Europe
:13:52. > :13:55.is going down, yes, but this is nothing to do with the policy of our
:13:56. > :13:58.chancellor, it has to do with the policy of our neighbours, closing
:13:59. > :14:02.down their borders. It seems to me, as the numbers have gone down, and
:14:03. > :14:07.neither of suss disagreeing that the numbers have most definitely gone
:14:08. > :14:12.down, you, again, in your party seem to have shifted the nature of the
:14:13. > :14:16.argument, because in your recent May - I believe it was about a month
:14:17. > :14:20.ago, your conference in Stuttgart, much of the discussion wasn't so
:14:21. > :14:24.much about immigration numbers, it was about the very specific point
:14:25. > :14:30.that the most of the people coming into Germany are Muslim and you
:14:31. > :14:35.actually came out with a new platform statement for the party
:14:36. > :14:38.which basically baldly says, "Islam does not belong." , to Germany. What
:14:39. > :14:48.does that It means that Islam is not part of
:14:49. > :14:53.the German history and not part of the German cultural history, it does
:14:54. > :14:57.not mean... And we made that point very clear, that the people living
:14:58. > :15:04.as Muslims in Germany don't belong to Germany. Visits to different
:15:05. > :15:09.things. Hang on, if I may, what about the 3.5 million people in
:15:10. > :15:15.Germany of Turkish origins who were brought to your country since the
:15:16. > :15:23.late 50s and early 60s to make your economy stronger? -- this is two.
:15:24. > :15:26.They helped build today's Germany, they have grandchildren and children
:15:27. > :15:31.who are German citizens and you say they don't belong to Germany? I just
:15:32. > :15:35.said the contrary, I just said they do belong to Germany. This is the
:15:36. > :15:40.point I just made a few seconds ago. They are Muslims, just as the
:15:41. > :15:45.people who are coming to Germany today are. Maybe I can make one
:15:46. > :15:56.sentence altogether because it's important. We differentiate between
:15:57. > :16:04.Islam as a political Islam in most interpretations and Muslims. And the
:16:05. > :16:07.ones who are living their faith and practising their beliefs, this is
:16:08. > :16:12.religious freedom, this is one thing, this has nothing to do with
:16:13. > :16:17.political Islam in its most interpretations. Political Islamism
:16:18. > :16:23.always claiming political power and political influence of our system,
:16:24. > :16:28.of our law system. If that's the case, if you draw the distinction
:16:29. > :16:37.clearly between what you call political Islam and religious Islam,
:16:38. > :16:43.why do you support the banning of minarets in Germany, the ending of
:16:44. > :16:49.the call to prayer, and say that women can't weigh the fullface veil
:16:50. > :16:56.-- were. Those are different displays of the Muslim legend for
:16:57. > :16:59.many Muslims. This is what we say... This is a political
:17:00. > :17:07.statement, this is claiming political power. What? A minaret on
:17:08. > :17:12.a mosque is a statement of political power crazy one of your colleagues
:17:13. > :17:16.has said Islam is a foreign body and Islamisation of Germany is a real
:17:17. > :17:24.danger. The minaret represents all of that, does it? We've got lots of
:17:25. > :17:27.mosques without a minaret. That functions very well, nobody has ever
:17:28. > :17:34.doubted a mosque without a minaret is a mosque where you can live your
:17:35. > :17:38.belief, your Muslim belief, and you can pray and talk to your God. This
:17:39. > :17:44.is something that functions very well without Muslim minarets. We
:17:45. > :17:48.never had the debate whether a mosque without a minaret isn't a
:17:49. > :17:52.mosque where you can pray, this is what we say, you can have mosques
:17:53. > :17:57.but we don't want the minarets. This is backed by something like 35% of
:17:58. > :18:01.German people. One has not to agree with this but we are expressing the
:18:02. > :18:05.views of people who see it that way. You say you don't have to agree
:18:06. > :18:13.with it but I wonder if you worry about some of the people who
:18:14. > :18:16.profoundly disagree with your policies on Islam and things like
:18:17. > :18:20.minarets. For example, the President of Germany's central council of Jews
:18:21. > :18:25.says with their manifesto today the AfD has departed from the
:18:26. > :18:28.foundations of our very constitution, they threatened to
:18:29. > :18:31.split our society and thwart peaceful coexistence. One of the
:18:32. > :18:38.most senior Jewish voices in your country. The majority of our people
:18:39. > :18:45.for example support the idea, something like 61% or 62% is the
:18:46. > :18:50.last number support the phrase Islam does not belong to Germany, which
:18:51. > :18:57.does not mean Muslim people do not belong to Germany. What we don't
:18:58. > :19:02.like is the impact of political Islam onto our public life. This is
:19:03. > :19:12.what we don't want to have. We don't accept that for example Sharia is
:19:13. > :19:15.that we should accept. This is practice in various constituencies.
:19:16. > :19:20.This is what we don't want to have, we don't want the influence of
:19:21. > :19:22.Islamic law in Germany, we've got a German law which has to be
:19:23. > :19:28.accepted. These are the debates we're having. I don't think everyone
:19:29. > :19:33.has to agree with our opinion and we don't want to be backed by 100% of
:19:34. > :19:37.the people. But it's correct... Ajax at that point that not everyone has
:19:38. > :19:42.to agree but you don't want to be seen as an Afobe is an much less
:19:43. > :19:45.racists, and there are elements it seems in your party that run the
:19:46. > :19:50.risk of being seen that way by fellow Germans, for example one of
:19:51. > :19:56.your regional party leaders told a newspaper the other day that Germans
:19:57. > :19:58.wouldn't want one of your national football team players, Jerome
:19:59. > :20:04.Boateng, to live next door as a neighbour and the only implication
:20:05. > :20:09.was because he has a black Ghanaian father. What is going on in your
:20:10. > :20:15.party? Let me make that point and thank you for asking the question.
:20:16. > :20:23.As this has just been corrected by the author of this title himself,
:20:24. > :20:27.they admitted that our vice chair has not said anything about Boateng,
:20:28. > :20:32.he didn't even mention the name, he didn't even know Boateng. So they
:20:33. > :20:39.had to admit that they built up a headline from nothing. This is again
:20:40. > :20:44.something which is a bit difficult when you try to follow a public
:20:45. > :20:48.conversation in another country where you don't speak the language.
:20:49. > :20:52.I'm not sure the newspaper's characterisation of the conversation
:20:53. > :20:56.is quite as you put it, but even if we agree to disagree about that
:20:57. > :21:01.case, what about the leader of the parliamentary faction of your party
:21:02. > :21:07.in another region, and this is a direct quote, he drew a distinction
:21:08. > :21:13.between the life-affirming African proliferation type of person and the
:21:14. > :21:16.self-denying European type. He warned that African reproductive
:21:17. > :21:20.behaviour wasn't going to change as long as Europe took in more African
:21:21. > :21:27.immigrants. What do you think of that kind of language? This is
:21:28. > :21:32.again... I apologise for saying again, but we had made a very clear
:21:33. > :21:38.statement on that as the board of our party and we said we would
:21:39. > :21:43.disagree and we do not accept this way of speaking. We made that point
:21:44. > :21:53.clear. Is that gentleman still in your party? He is still in our party
:21:54. > :21:58.and you can't... Why? Because you can't exclude someone by making such
:21:59. > :22:03.a statement. You can't exclude someone for what appears to most
:22:04. > :22:07.Germans as overt racism, that's not grounds for kicking him out of the
:22:08. > :22:11.party? We've made a statement on that and we made that clear and he
:22:12. > :22:16.accepted it. Maybe the British system is a bit more radical and the
:22:17. > :22:21.German one is a different one. We have made a statement on this
:22:22. > :22:28.statement and this has again not been reported back to the UK, which
:22:29. > :22:31.I understand, and that's the way public communication functions or
:22:32. > :22:35.does not function. Far right parties doing well all over Europe, from the
:22:36. > :22:40.National Front in France and two others in Hungary and Eastern
:22:41. > :22:44.Europe, but here use it in the European Parliament in Brussels...
:22:45. > :22:48.The leaders of Europe have made it plainly clear that they will have
:22:49. > :22:52.nothing to do with parties of the far right. The president of the
:22:53. > :22:56.European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker said the other day that
:22:57. > :23:03.there can be no debate for dialogue with the far right. You remain for
:23:04. > :23:12.all of your limited success deeply politically isolated, do you not?
:23:13. > :23:15.No, I think this was your introductory remark he made. We are
:23:16. > :23:27.shifting the political system in Germany. Our great coalition has
:23:28. > :23:30.today lost its majority. If it were to vote today the CDU and the Social
:23:31. > :23:34.Democrats together would not be able to build up a new government and
:23:35. > :23:41.this is because we are now the third biggest party. We are in the polls
:23:42. > :23:45.around 15% overall in Germany, so we're really changing the political
:23:46. > :23:50.system. The CDU and the CSU decided they would have to come up with a
:23:51. > :23:54.new programme for the next federal election next September and they
:23:55. > :23:58.picked the major topics of the AFP programme, so they want to copy us
:23:59. > :24:05.on our family policies and internal politics, on in a security and
:24:06. > :24:09.police and migration. What we are doing is shifting the programme so
:24:10. > :24:13.being isolated... I wouldn't call it, I would say we are changing
:24:14. > :24:18.politics at the moment in Germany. No doubt we will be talking to the
:24:19. > :24:20.other German parties about all that but Beatrix von Storch, thank you
:24:21. > :24:22.very much for joining me on HARDtalk.