:00:00. > :00:00.Lebanon, Tom Fletcher, if traditional diplomacy is dead.
:00:07. > :00:11.Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Stephen Sackur.
:00:12. > :00:17.What is the point of the modern-day diplomat?
:00:18. > :00:22.Theirs is a world of fortified embassies, chaffered
:00:23. > :00:25.limousines and elaborate protocol, but in this globalised internet age,
:00:26. > :00:35.My guest today has been addressing that very question.
:00:36. > :00:37.Tom Fletcher was appointed British ambassador to Lebanon
:00:38. > :00:41.Five years on, he's just written an operational review
:00:42. > :01:23.diplomats are only as influential, as powerful, as
:01:24. > :01:26.the nation states that they represent.
:01:27. > :01:29.Right now, nation states as a whole, as a generalisation, are becoming
:01:30. > :01:46.A lot of power is now being transferred away from
:01:47. > :01:48.the nation state, away from hierarchies, away from traditional
:01:49. > :01:49.sources of authority, towards individuals.
:01:50. > :01:52.So diplomacy, that has always attached itself to
:01:53. > :01:54.power, has got to adjust where it gets that power from.
:01:55. > :01:59.Diplomacy changing, but isn't it time to acknowledge
:02:00. > :02:04.that, actually, a lot of what a diplomat does, the traditional
:02:05. > :02:05.stuff of diplomacy, is now irrelevant?
:02:06. > :02:16.There is this image of diplomats that is sort of stuck in the public
:02:17. > :02:18.consciousness, around the Ferrero Rocher
:02:19. > :02:19.reception, the Rolls-Royce, the James Bond
:02:20. > :02:26.All of that is as far removed from my experience of diplomacy
:02:27. > :02:30.The reality is we have people out there in tough situations,
:02:31. > :02:32.conflict situations, getting Brits out of trouble.
:02:33. > :02:34.There is very little Ferrero Rocher involved.
:02:35. > :02:37.Let's leave aside the chocolates and look at what you have reflected
:02:38. > :02:41.You have written extensively about your time as ambassador in Lebanon.
:02:42. > :02:45.You wrote, "I felt power draining through my fingers as an ambassador.
:02:46. > :02:49.Governments becoming weaker compared to other sources of powers,
:02:50. > :02:51.and within governments, diplomats are becoming weaker compared to
:02:52. > :02:57.That suggests to me a deep level of frustration within you at the
:02:58. > :03:04.I'm passionate about diplomacy, and believe strongly in our ability to
:03:05. > :03:07.make the world a better place, and promote coexistence, which we have
:03:08. > :03:18.been doing as diplomats since the first caveman put down a club and
:03:19. > :03:20.started collaborating to work together for resource with another
:03:21. > :03:30.We are competing with many other sources of influence.
:03:31. > :03:33.Google has its own foreign policy, Microsoft has its own foreign
:03:34. > :03:36.Big media corporations - the BBC has its own foreign policy,
:03:37. > :03:39.dare I say, so we have to fight harder for that space.
:03:40. > :03:43.It seems to me that your experience, both as a diplomat in the field and
:03:44. > :03:46.based at Number 10 Downing Street representing or giving advice to the
:03:47. > :03:48.Prime Minister, suggests that more and more, embassies, diplomats in
:03:49. > :03:52.the field, don't really matter, because there is a centralisation of
:03:53. > :03:56.power, and we see it in the White House, at Number 10 Downing Street,
:03:57. > :04:00.in the Kremlin and Beijing, too, that the projection of the brand,
:04:01. > :04:03.the message of a nation, comes from a centralised point
:04:04. > :04:10.There have always been phases where people reckon that was the case.
:04:11. > :04:18.You said at the time that you felt yourself to be essentially more spin
:04:19. > :04:21.doctor than diplomat when you were in Number Ten.
:04:22. > :04:24.I felt we were constrained by the demands of a 24/7 media.
:04:25. > :04:29.But I also felt there were enormous amounts we could do
:04:30. > :04:31.from Number Ten to promote British policy.
:04:32. > :04:34.You still have in the foreign office and diplomatic network
:04:35. > :04:37.an unparalleled network of people who can help you have a world view,
:04:38. > :04:40.That's the strength of the organisation.
:04:41. > :04:49.Yeah, I don't know whether you know him, but the New York Times recently
:04:50. > :04:52.wrote a very interesting profile of a guy called Ben Rhodes, late 30s...
:04:53. > :04:58.An extraordinary individual who is director
:04:59. > :05:01.of strategic medications within the National Security Council inside
:05:02. > :05:05.They said, in essence, he is the most powerful voice in US
:05:06. > :05:11.foreign policy making outside the President himself.
:05:12. > :05:14.And he said this recently, "Look at the reality of today.
:05:15. > :05:17.US newspapers used to have foreign bureaus, now they don't.
:05:18. > :05:21.Journalists call us to explain what is happening in Moscow and in Cairo.
:05:22. > :05:23.Most outlets are reporting on world events from Washington.
:05:24. > :05:27.The average reporter we talk to is barely out of their 20s
:05:28. > :05:29.and they have very little experience.
:05:30. > :05:31.Therefore, the White House feels it can shape
:05:32. > :05:43.No. What you are trying to do is get in the story in the right way and
:05:44. > :05:51.When I started we tried to get the right message on the ticker on the
:05:52. > :05:53.bottom of the screen on the BBC.
:05:54. > :05:56.By the time I left Number Ten, we were trying to get
:05:57. > :05:59.the right tweet out there, define our policy in a tweet.
:06:00. > :06:01.But you are still relying massively, especially in the field,
:06:02. > :06:03.on journalists who know the situation on the ground,
:06:04. > :06:08.So I don't think it's possible for anyone to shape the story in
:06:09. > :06:10.the way that Ben was suggesting there.
:06:11. > :06:16.If we think about social media platforms,
:06:17. > :06:19.I can't think of any, certainly any British diplomat, maybe any
:06:20. > :06:21.international diplomat, more assiduous in
:06:22. > :06:27.You sent more than 10,000 tweets while you were in Lebanon.
:06:28. > :06:30.It suggests to me you were more concerned with living a reality
:06:31. > :06:32.diplomat life than you were doing any meaningful diplomacy.
:06:33. > :06:39.For me, this was meaningful diplomacy.
:06:40. > :06:42.If you look at the Middle East now, there is a massive battle for the
:06:43. > :06:44.hearts and minds of people across the region.
:06:45. > :06:46.That debate is happening on social media.
:06:47. > :06:49.There are many risks to being there in the way you described.
:06:50. > :06:52.One risk to me was that the smartphone I was engaging on was
:06:53. > :06:54.also the device by which terrorists were
:06:55. > :06:58.But you have to be in those arguments as a diplomat.
:06:59. > :07:01.The biggest risk is to leave that space clear to our opponents.
:07:02. > :07:07.You have to be in the arguments, you say, and you sort of suggest you
:07:08. > :07:12.felt that your constant tweeting, and a lot of it was about frankly
:07:13. > :07:16.the fun you are having, charity walks you were taking, flights with
:07:17. > :07:18.the Red Arrow display team, all sorts of stuff
:07:19. > :07:22.you were having fun with in Lebanon -
:07:23. > :07:25.you seem to suggest that was presenting a different set of values
:07:26. > :07:28.and alternative cultural political message from that posed by
:07:29. > :07:33.extremists, including those from IS - as though your Twitter feed could
:07:34. > :07:35.somehow counter the propaganda coming from Islamic State.
:07:36. > :07:45.I won't claim that every single tweet I sent was taking on Daesh
:07:46. > :07:49.directly, but I would like to say, if you add up those 10,000 tweets,
:07:50. > :07:53.you'll get a strong sense of Britain's place in the world, our
:07:54. > :07:56.prosperity offer, focus on stability, and our wider values
:07:57. > :08:01.It was only by tweeting, in a hopefully entertaining way at times,
:08:02. > :08:04.that I could connect with people in order to get our message across.
:08:05. > :08:08.Let's be charitable and say some of those were Lebanese,
:08:09. > :08:11.and even more charitable and say they weren't all articulate,
:08:12. > :08:17.There is still absolutely no way whatsoever that the kind
:08:18. > :08:19.of disaffected, alienated youth in Lebanon or anywhere in the Middle
:08:20. > :08:22.East who might be considering the attractions of Islamic State, there
:08:23. > :08:25.is no way they will see tweets from the British ambassador
:08:26. > :08:28.in Lebanon and think, "I have changed my mind, I'm attracted
:08:29. > :08:35.Actually, you can assess the number of
:08:36. > :08:38.About 30,000 of my followers were from Lebanon.
:08:39. > :08:40.They weren't all hanging out at embassy parties.
:08:41. > :08:44.They were people I wouldn't have otherwise reached.
:08:45. > :08:47.They were reading you in English, weren't they?
:08:48. > :08:52.These were English speakers, as many are who are being
:08:53. > :08:56.When the Iranian embassy was blown up in Beirut, we didn't
:08:57. > :09:07.I could not go down there and express my condolences.
:09:08. > :09:15.I'm not going to say there is a link between that and the Iran deal,
:09:16. > :09:18.You're the Kim Kardashian of modern-day diplomacy.
:09:19. > :09:31.You live a reality TV lifestyle, to a certain extent in Beirut.
:09:32. > :09:34.But you are not really doing what diplomats have traditionally done
:09:35. > :09:36.and seen as their most important work -
:09:37. > :09:39.highly confidential, secret work on the most difficult issues to try to
:09:40. > :09:46.The tweeting is the tip of the iceberg.
:09:47. > :09:48.It doesn't replace that substantive work behind the scenes.
:09:49. > :09:51.A lot of what I'm tweeting about is the work we did
:09:52. > :09:53.on the border, building watchtowers that were keeping Islamic State
:09:54. > :09:59.I was tweeting about the fact we got textbooks to every child in the
:10:00. > :10:04.I was tweeting day by day about the controversial political
:10:05. > :10:15.I use Twitter, not as assiduously as you - 140 characters - let's
:10:16. > :10:18.not get carried away by the sorts of profound messages you can deliver
:10:19. > :10:22.I want to quote you the words of Nicholas Carr,
:10:23. > :10:24.who wrote a fascinating book, The Glass Cage.
:10:25. > :10:26.He says, "Social media favours the bitty over the meaty,
:10:27. > :10:29.cutting over the considered, and prizes emotion over reason.
:10:30. > :10:36.The more visceral the message, the more quickly it circulates,"
:10:37. > :10:40.and that, I put it to you, is why Islamic State is always going to get
:10:41. > :10:42.more out of social media and platforms
:10:43. > :10:47.Social media does empower the bad guys and the outraged.
:10:48. > :10:52.Those who have a simple and clear message.
:10:53. > :10:54.Not the diplomats who confessed the world is complicated.
:10:55. > :10:57.It suits people like Donald Trump, who just want to be
:10:58. > :11:04.in every argument and whose answer is to just build a bigger wall.
:11:05. > :11:06.He is the first real Twitter politician.
:11:07. > :11:09.He has leveraged it to create an amazing national campaign.
:11:10. > :11:16.People respond to what he says because they feel it's the real
:11:17. > :11:19.Do you want to be a Donald Trump of diplomacy?
:11:20. > :11:21.No, but I don't want to leave that space
:11:22. > :11:27.Donald Trump has something like 5 million followers, you have 50,000.
:11:28. > :11:35.I reckon I have more than he does in Lebanon.
:11:36. > :11:38.Without being too grandiose, this is about the future of the world, about
:11:39. > :11:40.how messages get out there and how people like you
:11:41. > :11:44.who care - you want these guys who actually care about the world and
:11:45. > :11:47.how we govern it, your approach to the message is never going to
:11:48. > :11:50.compete with Donald Trump's, because you are too even-handed and he is
:11:51. > :12:00.I'm not going to claim I will suddenly take on Donald Trump in
:12:01. > :12:01.social media, but many are doing that,
:12:02. > :12:05.They are journalists, in NGOs, individual campaigners,
:12:06. > :12:07.they are in communities, and those voices are needed to
:12:08. > :12:13.The problem is that too many of those people now are distracted by
:12:14. > :12:17.cute cats or Justin Bieber's hair.
:12:18. > :12:33.You have made a bit of a stir in the UK, you have written a book, which
:12:34. > :12:34.talks about the digital approach to diplomacy.
:12:35. > :12:37.There are those inside the Foreign Office and have recently left that
:12:38. > :12:44.Just to quote one, and it is not personal, but he has considered
:12:45. > :12:47.your message and doesn't agree with you - Oliver Miles, former
:12:48. > :12:49.ambassador in Libya and I think Athens as well,
:12:50. > :12:52.and he says, "We need to consider carefully what ambassadors are for.
:12:53. > :12:55.They are not super journalists or blogging super agony aunts.
:12:56. > :13:03.Their job is to advise government seriously on policy and to provide
:13:04. > :13:06.- this is important - "discreet reliable channels of communication
:13:07. > :13:19.And 90% of what I was doing in Lebanon was very discreet.
:13:20. > :13:22.The conversations I was having with Lebanese warlords day in, day out,
:13:23. > :13:25.and the advice I was giving on the Syria crisis was very discreet.
:13:26. > :13:30.But you say everything has to be opened up to the public, and that
:13:31. > :13:32.transparency and accountability means diplomats have to give more
:13:33. > :13:36.I want a more honest way of talking to the public.
:13:37. > :13:39.But there is still a place for that confidential channel.
:13:40. > :13:41.That is a huge part of what diplomats do.
:13:42. > :13:43.If there isn't that confidentiality and therefore mutual trust
:13:44. > :13:46.between antagonistic parties, that neither will rat on the other and
:13:47. > :13:51.spill the beans, then no difficult issue will ever be compromised on.
:13:52. > :14:00.The Iran deal was done away from social media.
:14:01. > :14:05.Until the news broke, carefully delivered, that the
:14:06. > :14:08.Israelis and Palestinians had spent months, if not years, talking under
:14:09. > :14:14.Norwegian auspices to get a deal on a two-state solution, and we are
:14:15. > :14:19.talking 1992-3, many years ago, if the secrecy hadn't been there,
:14:20. > :14:24.Perez, Arafat, they never would have gotten close to that deal.
:14:25. > :14:27.And a huge part of what we do has to remain confidential.
:14:28. > :14:29.Social media makes the public feel more engaged, and more involved
:14:30. > :14:36.Let's go back to the beginning, and me talking about the extent to
:14:37. > :14:39.which you feel that diplomats have haemorrhaged influence because
:14:40. > :14:46.The truth is the influential, powerful states still invest
:14:47. > :14:55.It is the hard power, the military power and the ability to impose
:14:56. > :14:59.serious economic sanctions, that gives diplomats in difficult
:15:00. > :15:05.That is why the 2% we are spending on defence is so important.
:15:06. > :15:08.It is why the 0.7% we spend on development is important
:15:09. > :15:12.as well, because that is how you project power.
:15:13. > :15:16.But I would add to that the wider soft power we as the UK can deploy,
:15:17. > :15:19.everything from James Bond to David Beckham to the royal family.
:15:20. > :15:22.This is part of the toolkit of options you have as a diplomat.
:15:23. > :15:24.Without the hard power, without the economic power,
:15:25. > :15:32.So would you agree with another review, not your review of process
:15:33. > :15:36.in the Foreign Office, but another review of Britain's reach in the
:15:37. > :15:39.world, written by people like Sir Christopher Meyer, and Sir Richard
:15:40. > :15:48.Dearlove, the former chief of internal
:15:49. > :15:52.They concluded, and I am quoting, Britain is suffering a crisis
:15:53. > :15:54.of confidence in foreign policy that leaves it, quote,
:15:55. > :15:56.sidelined in Syria, ineffective in Ukraine, unwilling in Europe,
:15:57. > :16:06.And I'm not going to be one more former diplomat going
:16:07. > :16:10.around saying how good life would be by were still in charge.
:16:11. > :16:13.Actually it is frank and truthful, and it sounds to me
:16:14. > :16:16.like you are about to give a woolly answer saying that we are
:16:17. > :16:23.Take our role in Lebanon, for example.
:16:24. > :16:28.There is no way we were bystanders, onlookers in Lebanon.
:16:29. > :16:31.We were fortifying the border, we were giving education in schools,
:16:32. > :16:37.Ask 4 million Lebanese whether we have mattered over
:16:38. > :16:40.the last ten years and you will get a very different answer.
:16:41. > :16:43.You don't think that your perspective might be slightly
:16:44. > :16:45.skewed, because you happened to be sitting in the very comfortable
:16:46. > :16:49.I was very rarely sitting in our very comfortable British Embassy.
:16:50. > :16:52.I was out and about, taking part in the very important
:16:53. > :16:58.The point these people make is that, look at Ukraine.
:16:59. > :17:00.Vladimir Putin challenges the European Union, the West,
:17:01. > :17:05.We say to him, don't even think about moving
:17:06. > :17:12.your troops into Crimea, and certainly don't think about
:17:13. > :17:21.He basically calls the shots in eastern Ukraine.
:17:22. > :17:24.We impose a few sanctions, which frankly are not as strong
:17:25. > :17:30.as they could be, and we in the end have to accept his status quo.
:17:31. > :17:32.Yes, I talk a lot about 21st-century diplomacy.
:17:33. > :17:35.Putin is a kind of 19th-century statesman, and he is very effective.
:17:36. > :17:37.He is the real 21st-century diplomat, because he understands
:17:38. > :17:40.first the realities of hard power, and he understands that for all
:17:41. > :17:47.of your tweeting about your entertaining and social life in
:17:48. > :17:49.Lebanon, that actually propaganda is what matters,
:17:50. > :17:54.and he has the most sophisticated centralised system of propaganda.
:17:55. > :17:57.Well, a large part of that propaganda is the way that the
:17:58. > :18:03.This is part of the weaponry for them.
:18:04. > :18:09.But your kind of use of social media is not what Vladimir
:18:10. > :18:14.Yours is slice-of-life stuff, and here is what I did yesterday.
:18:15. > :18:16.His is much more thoroughly, one could say cynically, controlled to
:18:17. > :18:26.I would hope that what we are doing on social media...
:18:27. > :18:38.No, but one man's propaganda is another man's spin.
:18:39. > :18:46.We are all trying to communicate our national message, our national rand.
:18:47. > :18:47.-- brand. So you are not really honest
:18:48. > :18:49.and frank. A minute ago you seemed to be
:18:50. > :18:52.suggesting to me that there really was a chance for self-expression,
:18:53. > :18:55.to be accountable and transparent. Now you are suggesting it is
:18:56. > :18:57.driven by national interest. I don't think
:18:58. > :18:59.the two things are incompatible. I feel very comfortable talking
:19:00. > :19:02.about Britain's role in the world. I never thought there was
:19:03. > :19:04.a contradiction between that What if you really did feel
:19:05. > :19:09.there was a contradiction? What if you really felt that
:19:10. > :19:11.something the British Government was doing, while you were in their
:19:12. > :19:14.pay as an ambassador, was wrong? You would probably find
:19:15. > :19:18.me being silent on it. So when you call yourself the Naked
:19:19. > :19:21.Diplomat, with the implication I tell the truth, I don't cover things
:19:22. > :19:25.up, I am the real deal, you are not. Yes, but ultimately you work
:19:26. > :19:27.for a Government. You can't have everybody going
:19:28. > :19:32.around basically spraying out their Don't call yourself a
:19:33. > :19:35.Naked Diplomat, then. Don't give
:19:36. > :19:37.the impression you are different. The Naked Diplomat is not
:19:38. > :19:39.about being completely open It is about trying to move
:19:40. > :19:44.the conversation somewhere more authentic, more engaging,
:19:45. > :19:48.then we have been in the past. I wouldn't put tweets out saying I
:19:49. > :19:54.feel grave concerns I would say that I am angry about
:19:55. > :20:01.what Assad is doing to his people. I would try
:20:02. > :20:04.and use the language everyone else And the decision a couple of years
:20:05. > :20:09.ago by Britain not to engage in the bombing with the Americans,
:20:10. > :20:17.would you tweet that out as well? I wouldn't tweet about something
:20:18. > :20:20.on which I disagreed with the Government, because ultimately I am
:20:21. > :20:23.a representative of the Government, and that after all is my role
:20:24. > :20:27.as an ambassador, as a diplomat. It is interesting that you have now,
:20:28. > :20:29.I believe, You have headed a review
:20:30. > :20:34.of the Foreign Office's operational capabilities and its future, and the
:20:35. > :20:38.UN want you to do the same for them. When you look at the way in which
:20:39. > :20:42.the UN tries to wield influence and power in the international
:20:43. > :20:45.arena today, do you see the UN being I am worried we have subcontracted
:20:46. > :20:57.a huge number of these big, global problems to the UN,
:20:58. > :20:59.and it is really struggling. I think its own people admit
:21:00. > :21:02.that it is struggling. It has got too big, it is
:21:03. > :21:05.incoherent, it is not sufficiently What we try and do in this review
:21:06. > :21:10.is work out how we can use these new tools, this smartphone
:21:11. > :21:12.superpower that we have now. The digital diplomacy
:21:13. > :21:14.you talk about. To reconnect the UN to
:21:15. > :21:20.its basic purpose. Isn't there something more basic
:21:21. > :21:22.that is problematic at the UN, which is that the power centre is
:21:23. > :21:25.the Security Council, and inside the Security Council you have
:21:26. > :21:28.five permanent members, all of whom And because
:21:29. > :21:32.of that the entire institution is, on the most difficult
:21:33. > :21:36.and contentious issues, hamstrung. Yes, and you see that in the
:21:37. > :21:38.Middle East. With Syria, Russia has wielded
:21:39. > :21:41.its veto pretty much permanently. You see that on Palestine,
:21:42. > :21:48.where the Americans wield Christopher Meyer,
:21:49. > :21:51.to mention him again, says in key matters of war and peace the
:21:52. > :22:05.UN has proved well nigh useless. You look at the way the UN is
:22:06. > :22:10.running the humanitarian effort at the moment, you look at what
:22:11. > :22:13.they are doing on education, there is a lot of amazing peacemaking
:22:14. > :22:16.going on around the globe. But it is not as good
:22:17. > :22:19.as it needs to be. It needs much stronger leadership,
:22:20. > :22:21.and we are getting into a process now of selecting
:22:22. > :22:23.the next Secretary-General, and it needs much more coherence,
:22:24. > :22:26.it needs to work together much If I may say so,
:22:27. > :22:32.that is sort of apple pie stuff. Nobody can disagree with a thought
:22:33. > :22:36.that is not very specific. You are a former British diplomat
:22:37. > :22:39.who is now looking at the Is it time to acknowledge that it
:22:40. > :22:44.makes no sense for Britain to have one
:22:45. > :22:47.of those permanent five seats, that Britain, as one relatively small,
:22:48. > :22:50.medium-sized nation, shouldn't be Britain is not
:22:51. > :22:55.a big veto wielder anyway. We are spending 2% on military,
:22:56. > :23:00.0.7% on aid. If you look at the hearings,
:23:01. > :23:03.the British ambassador is asking the right questions,
:23:04. > :23:04.collecting ideas via Twitter. We are a major player in that space,
:23:05. > :23:11.and people want us there. Yes, but even Sir John Major,
:23:12. > :23:13.former British prime minister, says away the Security Council
:23:14. > :23:16.as configured at the moment is Well, I think you could argue that
:23:17. > :23:21.it is not fit for purpose, it is not doing the things they are
:23:22. > :23:32.supposed to be doing. That Britain and France have two
:23:33. > :23:35.of the five seats is indicative I think it is much more
:23:36. > :23:38.about how Russia But Russia is still
:23:39. > :23:42.a nuclear superpower. We and France have nuclear weapons,
:23:43. > :23:45.and let's leave Britain and Brexit aside, we are two medium-sized
:23:46. > :23:48.European states. Are you saying the Security Council
:23:49. > :23:51.doesn't need I'm sure we need to hear from
:23:52. > :24:00.South America, from Africa, But I don't think that means the UK
:24:01. > :24:06.giving up the position that they