:00:00. > :00:00.the polls before a recent corruption scandal dented her support.
:00:00. > :00:00.Now on BBC World News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:07. > :00:16.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:17. > :00:23.Elite professional sport is a well rewarded but unforgiving business.
:00:24. > :00:27.It requires not just talent but immense determination, and
:00:28. > :00:31.resilience under pressure. Top performers need a particular kind of
:00:32. > :00:40.mental strength. What happens when they lose it, when self-doubt and
:00:41. > :00:44.depressing kick in? My guest, Michael Yardy, was a
:00:45. > :00:46.and World Cup winner in 2010, whose international career ended
:00:47. > :01:22.Why have so many cricketers suffered from mental torment?
:01:23. > :01:28.one-day cricketer Michael Yardy, welcomed HARDtalk. Thank you. Your
:01:29. > :01:33.career is one with many highs and lows. I want to take you back to the
:01:34. > :01:38.beginning. Your prowess as a young boy and a young cricketer. You must
:01:39. > :01:43.have felt at that point as a young kid, going through County schemes
:01:44. > :01:48.and development trips, you must have felt that you could do anything
:01:49. > :01:52.because you were really good? Yes, I think that I enjoyed it. That's all
:01:53. > :01:58.you look at, that's what you play for. Look at any outcomes or
:01:59. > :02:05.performing, you just do it for enjoyment. You are one of your best
:02:06. > :02:12.in your generation in Sussex. You are a star as a kid. People looked
:02:13. > :02:17.at you and said to me, that boy could play for England. Yes, but at
:02:18. > :02:23.the time, it is more about enjoyment. I had a nigh on what I
:02:24. > :02:32.wanted to get to, but I very much enjoyed the game and playing with
:02:33. > :02:35.that air of no responsibility. And immediate, he became a fully fledged
:02:36. > :02:40.professional and had some very successful years at Sussex. When did
:02:41. > :02:45.you first think yourself, I'm not altogether enjoying this? Perhaps
:02:46. > :02:48.the first feeling on a pitch or a round of cricket that it wasn't
:02:49. > :02:56.straightforward, not necessarily coming naturally. I think around
:02:57. > :02:59.2008. I've always been quite an intense character, especially
:03:00. > :03:04.playing cricket, I have always been desperate to do well and succeed. In
:03:05. > :03:09.2008 that kind of tipped over the edge, where things won't kind of
:03:10. > :03:15.normal. I was struggling to get to the games... You literally had to
:03:16. > :03:20.drag yourself. Yes, there were times when my wife would go to drop off
:03:21. > :03:25.the kids and expect me to have gone to cricket, she would come back and
:03:26. > :03:32.I was still there. They seem like little things but that has a big
:03:33. > :03:42.impact. and think, it's a dream, I would
:03:43. > :03:57.love to get paid for it. I was feeling these thoughts,
:03:58. > :04:00.feeling guilt because this is something I have
:04:01. > :04:04.worked for, I should be enjoying it, It is a dream and all of a sudden,
:04:05. > :04:08.I am feeling thoughts It was even at the stage where
:04:09. > :04:26.I was really disliking it. You're desperate,
:04:27. > :04:30.you should be enjoying it. But you are not and you cannot
:04:31. > :04:33.think of anything worse. Add to that, more than most sports,
:04:34. > :04:36.you're away from home a lot. In the county game in England,
:04:37. > :04:39.obviously you're travelling around the country playing, but if you are
:04:40. > :04:42.good, and you were good enough, particularly in the one-day format,
:04:43. > :04:45.to get into the England team. By 2008, you were being picked
:04:46. > :04:48.for tours and you're going away And I think, you know,
:04:49. > :04:52.that is part of the job. Just
:04:53. > :04:53.by playing international cricket, but for me, that is probably part
:04:54. > :04:57.of why I had the illness, It is a small part
:04:58. > :05:03.of why the illness came. You say the illness,
:05:04. > :05:06.at what point did you realise that I think you would say, certainly,
:05:07. > :05:14.you have said in the past that there was a form
:05:15. > :05:16.of obsessive-compulsive disorder. That this was sort of a diagnosis,
:05:17. > :05:20.but when did you realise you had I did not for three years,
:05:21. > :05:30.there were certain incidents in my life away from cricket where
:05:31. > :05:32.there was abnormal things. We lived in Australia,
:05:33. > :05:39.so I became obsessed that we were going to get broken into
:05:40. > :05:43.in the house, to the stage... It was not a case
:05:44. > :05:51.of double-checking, For me in my mind,
:05:52. > :05:56.it was going to happen. It was a case of
:05:57. > :05:58.when we got broken into. I was waiting for my wife
:05:59. > :06:01.and children to go to bed and then I would put chairs
:06:02. > :06:05.in front of doors, do all sorts... And to prepare myself mentally
:06:06. > :06:11.for what would happen. That is why I think cricket plays
:06:12. > :06:17.a part, but I also think it has got Even then, I knew it was abnormal,
:06:18. > :06:24.but I did not really understand if I just got that in my head
:06:25. > :06:31.and that was it. It sounds like high stress,
:06:32. > :06:34.high anxiety that you're having to deal with and the next day,
:06:35. > :06:37.whether you have slept or not, you have to go to the cricket field
:06:38. > :06:41.and you are going to have to perform I wonder, and this reflects not just
:06:42. > :06:48.yourself but other cricketers I have spoken to, like Marcus Trescothick,
:06:49. > :06:51.the great England batsman, who suffered from terrible depression,
:06:52. > :06:53.was there anyone you could talk to? Was it something you could
:06:54. > :06:56.express in the dressing room? Again, at this stage I did not know
:06:57. > :07:03.what it was, I could not express it. It was only when I got to September
:07:04. > :07:06.2010, I was playing for England actually, I was not playing,
:07:07. > :07:17.I was the 12th man for that game. Pakistan in Southampton
:07:18. > :07:21.and I woke up that day and I then spoke to my wife
:07:22. > :07:27.and said I cannot do this any more. You said you were not even
:07:28. > :07:30.going to the ground? It was that vicious cycle,
:07:31. > :07:34.I know I have got to go to the ground, because this is part
:07:35. > :07:37.of what I had to do. It is my job,
:07:38. > :07:39.there was a World Cup coming up, And it was, but in my mind, I did
:07:40. > :07:53.not physically think I could do it. I could physically do it, but
:07:54. > :07:57.in my mind I did not think I could. I went and saw the coach,
:07:58. > :07:59.Andy Flower, and opened up You say you opened up,
:08:00. > :08:03.did you break down? It was all a kind of release,
:08:04. > :08:07.I suppose. He was very understanding
:08:08. > :08:09.and helpful. The weird thing about that is,
:08:10. > :08:23.you were at the top of your game, as you mention, the World Cup,
:08:24. > :08:27.you were part of the team that won And yet that sort of professional
:08:28. > :08:31.power and real success does not People might think, sportsmen might
:08:32. > :08:35.get depressed when they are not doing very well, but you were
:08:36. > :08:38.suffering depression and actually, That period of time, the World Cup
:08:39. > :08:44.was May 2010, a month after that was Again, that was cricket related,
:08:45. > :08:53.the frustration, incidents where I think, I suppose,
:08:54. > :09:17.it was out of character. Does it come from poor
:09:18. > :09:23.performance or does it lead you to poor performance, because you have
:09:24. > :09:26.all these extra things going on. I guess sportsmen, sportsmen and
:09:27. > :09:40.women, need that one-dimensional focus on what you are doing and you
:09:41. > :09:43.clearly did not have it at times. Let us get to the point where I
:09:44. > :09:48.think we can say, your international career came to
:09:49. > :09:51.a crashing halt and that was 2011. You were part of an England squad
:09:52. > :09:54.that was in an international tournament in England and Sri Lanka
:09:55. > :09:57.and I believe that at the time you were in Sri Lanka, part of the team
:09:58. > :10:01.waiting to see who your next opponents would be and you, in the
:10:02. > :10:08.end, just quit. You had to get out. It was interesting,
:10:09. > :10:16.we had been to Australia and spent a lot of time there and I
:10:17. > :10:20.felt good being in Australia and it was only the first few days, I think
:10:21. > :10:24.it was Bangladesh, that I started to I missed the first game
:10:25. > :10:28.and played the next two or three and then I was left out
:10:29. > :10:31.and there was a long period between finding out who our next opponents
:10:32. > :10:35.were and I got worse and worse. It just got to
:10:36. > :10:37.the stage where people were telling I tried my best to hide
:10:38. > :10:58.what I was going through. You're taught to show mental
:10:59. > :11:06.strength and not weakness. That is something I have
:11:07. > :11:09.always tried to do. It is rife in sport,
:11:10. > :11:12.but when it is behind closed doors, I used the word at the beginning
:11:13. > :11:21.of the story, it is a difficult story to tell in many ways,
:11:22. > :11:26.but I used the word unforgiving and It is about winning and losing,
:11:27. > :11:30.quite a simple straightforward When you quit,
:11:31. > :11:46.as you have indicated, you were not playing that well, your bowling and
:11:47. > :11:49.your batting was not at its best. This is what one of England's
:11:50. > :11:52.most famous ever batsmen said. He said,
:11:53. > :11:54.Michael Yardy must have been reading my comments about his bowling and it
:11:55. > :11:58.must have upset him, obviously it He obviously did not know
:11:59. > :12:04.that you were mentally ill. I think I have said,
:12:05. > :12:07.in the 50 over format, I struggled I remember coming home
:12:08. > :12:14.and listening to the television and there was a lot on this
:12:15. > :12:17.because there was a big reaction to As you say, he was not aware,
:12:18. > :12:27.so I have no grudges towards him. Have you spoken to him
:12:28. > :12:29.about it since? A lot of people pointed to that
:12:30. > :12:33.and suggested that he was out of order at the time, but his point was
:12:34. > :12:37.that he could have had no way of No, no, I have never spoken to him
:12:38. > :12:46.about it. I mean, what you hope with mental
:12:47. > :12:53.illness, whether guys play Test cricket for England or anyone
:12:54. > :12:56.in the street, is that you want to It is not always
:12:57. > :13:00.about how you're doing in your job or, in my case, cricket,
:13:01. > :13:03.there are underlying issues. Just to finish up on the struggle
:13:04. > :13:15.you have had, throughout the last seven years before you
:13:16. > :13:18.retire to stay on the cricket field You walked out of the England camp
:13:19. > :13:26.and that pretty much was the end of your international career,
:13:27. > :13:29.but you went back to Sussex. Even though you had had all this
:13:30. > :13:32.trouble, you were determined to There is one more extraordinary
:13:33. > :13:36.moment I want you to discuss with me and I think when you were trying to
:13:37. > :13:40.recover, be open and recover from the illness, you were in a game
:13:41. > :13:43.against Middlesex and when you're actually on the field,
:13:44. > :13:47.and then you walked off. I got to
:13:48. > :13:50.the stage, where I have this feeling
:13:51. > :13:58.I had to be off the field. I said to the umpire, I think, he
:13:59. > :14:05.looked at me, and I said I have some The captain at the time,
:14:06. > :14:14.Murray Goodwin, he is captain, I said I was going off and I broke
:14:15. > :14:17.down in the changing room. It was just the place, I did not
:14:18. > :14:30.feel I could be in that place at I cannot describe why,
:14:31. > :14:39.I felt I could not be It was overwhelming and I got
:14:40. > :14:48.off the pitch. As I mentioned, other cricketers,
:14:49. > :14:52.Marcus Trescothick and Jonathan Trott,
:14:53. > :14:53.long-time players in the England team, they discussed similar, not
:14:54. > :14:56.altogether the same, but similar When you look at the game today,
:14:57. > :15:01.do you think cricket is fully aware now of the intense pressures that
:15:02. > :15:03.come with the game, particularly Do you think they look
:15:04. > :15:08.after players well enough? I think cricket is one
:15:09. > :15:12.of the leaders in doing it. The Professional Cricket Association
:15:13. > :15:14.are hugely proactive in the work Yes, helping treat people,
:15:15. > :15:22.but also in my case, it is about I am thinking, in a sense, to me it
:15:23. > :15:37.is strange that you were picked for the 2011 tour when Andy Flower knew
:15:38. > :15:41.that in 2010 you had been so bad, so mentally disturbed that you had
:15:42. > :15:44.not been able to perform your 12th It just seems odd in
:15:45. > :15:54.a way that they would then take the I went to New Zealand first and, as
:15:55. > :16:02.I say, I got to Australia and I was I worked with a psychologist,
:16:03. > :16:08.there were building blocks in place and I would say that if someone had
:16:09. > :16:11.had a hamstring injury, would you potentially take the risk, if they
:16:12. > :16:18.had healed over a period of time? There were no signs,
:16:19. > :16:21.I thought I was getting better. I felt everything was
:16:22. > :16:23.going quite smoothly. I had things put
:16:24. > :16:28.in place to help myself. I would not say it was a risk, it
:16:29. > :16:35.was a risk like any other injury. In 2015 you retired - are you
:16:36. > :16:39.happier not playing cricket? I think I am happier now than I was,
:16:40. > :16:43.because I have had a lot of support and help with understanding mental
:16:44. > :16:46.illness and how to deal with that. I do not know what normal is,
:16:47. > :16:53.but I would say, I can go about my business, I understand when I have
:16:54. > :16:57.a bad day, I know how to deal with I think it is not so much,
:16:58. > :17:05.I miss cricket, because it was But I had to move on
:17:06. > :17:13.and I want to do a new career. I started by asking you what you
:17:14. > :17:19.were like as a young lad, being so good at cricket
:17:20. > :17:22.at a young age, and I wonder whether there is a sense of waste about you,
:17:23. > :17:25.looking back on your career. You were very good,
:17:26. > :17:28.you made it to the England team and then you ended up chucking it
:17:29. > :17:31.all away in your early 30s. A lot of players go on like
:17:32. > :17:34.Marcus Trescothick, go Do you feel you sort
:17:35. > :17:39.of threw it away? No, I would not change my career
:17:40. > :17:44.for anything. I would say, I am probably still
:17:45. > :17:49.raw, 16 years playing cricket, coming straight out of the game,
:17:50. > :17:55.there are still lots of different emotions, and hopefully I will look
:17:56. > :17:58.back fondly on what I have achieved, because a lot of people say to me,
:17:59. > :18:02.when you started, you could not Absolutely, I think it takes a bit
:18:03. > :18:08.of time for everything to calm down. Moving into a new career, looking
:18:09. > :18:15.back fondly on what I have achieved. You say you still care a lot about
:18:16. > :18:19.cricket and it has been your life. Let us talk about the state
:18:20. > :18:21.of cricket. You have just retired,
:18:22. > :18:23.you know the county game There is a big problem in cricket
:18:24. > :18:28.today, the long-form format which the purist would say is real
:18:29. > :18:31.cricket, whether it is at county level in England, or the five-day
:18:32. > :18:35.Test match, the elite Test match. We have just had an England-Sri
:18:36. > :18:44.Lanka test in the North of England I think Test match cricket will not
:18:45. > :18:58.die, especially in this country and Australia, it is very interesting,
:18:59. > :19:00.because Sri Lanka, yes, there were a few thousand people watching the
:19:01. > :19:03.Test match, but when Australia over last year,
:19:04. > :19:05.the hype around the Ashes Series Is that not
:19:06. > :19:15.the problem with cricket today? There is imbalance
:19:16. > :19:19.between the big three. A documentary maker made a film
:19:20. > :19:22.called The Death of a Gentleman about cricket and the way that money
:19:23. > :19:26.has driven cricket for a long time. Money in the sense that the big
:19:27. > :19:31.three cricketing nations, England, Australia and particularly India,
:19:32. > :19:35.now drive the decision-making process and on top of that, it is
:19:36. > :19:38.quite clear that the real money and commercialisation lies
:19:39. > :19:41.in the one-day game and particularly That is completely changing
:19:42. > :19:51.the nature of the game. It has to be a place for both,
:19:52. > :19:55.you have to keep... The great part of cricket is
:19:56. > :20:00.the heritage and history. Obviously you have this new model of
:20:01. > :20:05.2020 cricket that has come along. Clive Lloyd, the great West Indies
:20:06. > :20:08.captain, said 2020 cricket has It has just given another
:20:09. > :20:17.alternative to people to watch. If you are a West Indian cricketer,
:20:18. > :20:24.the money you can make by being successful in, for example the IPL,
:20:25. > :20:27.far outweighs the money you will get from going on tour with your
:20:28. > :20:30.West Indies clubmates to England or Australia, and a lot of West Indies
:20:31. > :20:33.cricketers are basically opting out of the test format simply to focus
:20:34. > :20:37.on the one-day career. I think a lot of people speak
:20:38. > :20:47.about the strong West Indies making It is still for me, playing was
:20:48. > :20:56.always the pinnacle to play Test cricket and the pinnacle was always
:20:57. > :20:59.to play in an Ashes Series. I was not good enough
:21:00. > :21:02.to achieve it... If you had the choice
:21:03. > :21:10.of a very lucrative, quarter or half million contract in the IPL
:21:11. > :21:13.as opposed to the steady match fees of playing in an England Test
:21:14. > :21:18.series, which would you have taken? I would
:21:19. > :21:20.like to think I would take the test option, because what we spoke about,
:21:21. > :21:24.you start playing the game, you grow up watching this big rivalry,
:21:25. > :21:28.and that is what it was about. I hope if that decision had ever
:21:29. > :21:30.come my way, A quick thought on money, we are
:21:31. > :21:40.talking about 2020 where the money is - there has also been over the
:21:41. > :21:44.last decade a real concern about the It was interesting for me to see
:21:45. > :21:50.that Sussex had a case in 2011 where the Chief Executive said some
:21:51. > :21:54.of our players were approached. You were still with Sussex
:21:55. > :21:56.at the time. Were you ever approached to fix
:21:57. > :21:59.a match? I think it is one
:22:00. > :22:04.of the worst things to happen. We had a terrible situation
:22:05. > :22:07.where the game was fixed. All the guys, I think we found out
:22:08. > :22:19.in 2014 that they were convicted of match fixing and it really
:22:20. > :22:21.affected how everyone was. When you watch cricket today,
:22:22. > :22:30.and obviously sometimes there are bizarre incidents in cricket,
:22:31. > :22:32.do you think, I wonder, You might see something
:22:33. > :22:44.a bit different... You do not think, I wonder if those
:22:45. > :22:50.guys might have been in on a deal? I don't think you
:22:51. > :22:52.start thinking that. Incidents like that, for me,
:22:53. > :22:59.it was a shock. It was not like, you know,
:23:00. > :23:03.something strange happens, it may be a jovial comment, but you never
:23:04. > :23:11.think any game is being fixed. It is what you do
:23:12. > :23:14.and you do not want to think it, A final thought about sport - you
:23:15. > :23:25.said you have a new career, you're training to be a sports psychologist
:23:26. > :23:28.and you have three children. Does the psychologist in you,
:23:29. > :23:31.with all the experience you have had about the difficulties, the
:23:32. > :23:34.highs and lows of sport, does the psychologist and the father in you
:23:35. > :23:38.think, God, I actually do not want my kids to grow up to be
:23:39. > :23:44.elite athletes, sportspeople? No, no, definitely, if one
:23:45. > :23:47.of my children was good enough and talented enough and wanted to,
:23:48. > :23:51.I think that is the crucial thing, Again, I speak at this time raw out
:23:52. > :24:00.of cricket, but I still have moments where I look back very fondly
:24:01. > :24:03.on what it was and I would not If my kids were lucky enough, then I
:24:04. > :24:11.would wholeheartedly support them. Michael Yardy, thank you very
:24:12. > :24:18.much for being on HARDtalk.