:00:00. > :00:09.Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:10. > :00:14.Professional cyclists are phenomenal athletes
:00:15. > :00:19.Big races like the Tour de France push them to the very limits
:00:20. > :00:26.In recent years, the sport has been mired by drug cheating -
:00:27. > :00:30.can it change its tarnished reputation?
:00:31. > :00:32.Tonight, retired Olympic champion and world record breaker Chris
:00:33. > :01:07.What does one of cycling's great innovators make of the sport today?
:01:08. > :01:18.Chris Boardman, welcome to HARDtalk. I talked about how cyclists are
:01:19. > :01:26.phenomenal athletes but which say the top attribute is mental? I think
:01:27. > :01:35.it is. I think it is a very arduous task. Being able to deal with
:01:36. > :01:40.pressure, in the case of cycling, a race can last for three weeks to be
:01:41. > :01:47.able to cope with the pressure day in day out is remarkable. It is at
:01:48. > :01:56.least 50-50. I want to dig into your psyche. You said, I am fanatical
:01:57. > :02:02.and, to be honest, other riders may have been healthier than me. When I
:02:03. > :02:08.was at school, I will slowly be self-esteem and full will my
:02:09. > :02:14.self-esteem was wrapped up in results. Then I met coach Peter
:02:15. > :02:19.King, who was fascinated about getting better rather than being the
:02:20. > :02:26.best. He was fascinated in performance, not interested in the
:02:27. > :02:32.results. That was a godsend for me because the gobby interested in the
:02:33. > :02:41.performance and making something. --... . People associate top level
:02:42. > :02:51.cycling and other endurance events with so much paid and suffering. --
:02:52. > :02:58.pain. Do you have to have a mentality that embraces that? People
:02:59. > :03:02.reached their limit and that is the defining point of how you can cope
:03:03. > :03:08.with that day today. The Tour de France lasts for three weeks. You
:03:09. > :03:13.are more less with the same people every day because it has found your
:03:14. > :03:21.limit and it might be mental and how much suffering you can cope with.
:03:22. > :03:30.Graham Aubry, a Scottish rider, he said to be, he did not seek a truly
:03:31. > :03:34.happy person could be a great cyclist because they would be too
:03:35. > :03:38.tempted to kick back and relax and you can never do that. Isn't there
:03:39. > :03:46.an element of view that is depressive? Are you sure about
:03:47. > :03:53.depressive certainly fanatical. It is painful, it involves so much
:03:54. > :04:01.sacrifice and it is intense and specialised. A sane person would not
:04:02. > :04:06.necessarily do this. It attracts extreme people by its nature. Is it
:04:07. > :04:14.true that after your wedding, you persuaded your new wife to get up
:04:15. > :04:24.early to go to a race? It is a cathartic process, writing a book.
:04:25. > :04:28.In the early 90s, looking back, I do not recognise myself. We got up the
:04:29. > :04:33.next morning at six o'clock to write a tidy race in Lancashire because it
:04:34. > :04:42.was the only time that race would be odd that course between the National
:04:43. > :04:51.Championships. Did she say, can I take yesterday back? Where we had
:04:52. > :04:57.our first daughter, I took her to hospital and rank the next day and
:04:58. > :05:07.asked what is the score and they told me it was a while so I went to
:05:08. > :05:16.hold to a race and I was the fourth posted to know I had a daughter. You
:05:17. > :05:18.had to be. If I did not do that and stayed at the hospital, I probably
:05:19. > :05:27.still would have wanted the national title but you cannot unpick it. I
:05:28. > :05:32.asked my father, why did you let me do that? And he said, what makes you
:05:33. > :05:39.think you are the only person obsessed with it. One of the
:05:40. > :05:47.highlights everyone remembers is 1992, Barcelona, winning the pursuit
:05:48. > :05:54.gold medal. What is you got world acclaim, did the edge disappear? If
:05:55. > :05:59.anything it went the other way. It was, how far can we take these? I
:06:00. > :06:10.was a carpenter, a wife, two kids and absolutely no money. The Brits
:06:11. > :06:17.turned up and it allowed me to prove it was possible. I tempted a world
:06:18. > :06:22.record for next year, attended the Tour de France. It was a deeply
:06:23. > :06:29.fanatical period. When to pick at the intensity and fanaticism. As you
:06:30. > :06:34.know, I think in many people 's minds, that element in cycling is
:06:35. > :06:41.now always associated with pushing beyond boundaries, going over the
:06:42. > :06:47.edge and, in particular, resorting to cheating and doping. Given the
:06:48. > :06:53.mentality you describe you had, how tempted where you? You have
:06:54. > :06:59.described a mentality that is the same across sport. It is a very
:07:00. > :07:07.intense thing where intense people live. I was fortunate that I had
:07:08. > :07:13.something I could do. I could come to a race fresh. I could do
:07:14. > :07:19.something that had value but, at the time, you could tell they were
:07:20. > :07:23.performances that were just not right. People you had beaten the
:07:24. > :07:27.week before was suddenly climbing mountains and you could see this
:07:28. > :07:33.environment was not right but only in hindsight you look back and see
:07:34. > :07:42.it. It has taken cycling 20 years to get on top of it. I puzzled why it
:07:43. > :07:49.was hindsight. People like Tyler Hamilton, David Millar... I like
:07:50. > :07:54.David. Stuart O'Grady... He was on the team. He was cheating at the
:07:55. > :07:59.time and he was your teammate. You say it is all hindsight and are you
:08:00. > :08:07.wondering, were your eyes closed? No, what we saw were the results.
:08:08. > :08:11.Remember riding Stuart on a mountain and we went past a young woman
:08:12. > :08:20.huffing and chuffing and it was Stuart that said, if he is going
:08:21. > :08:32.well, from now that will scale the. -- scarred me. No one discusses how
:08:33. > :08:41.you got there. The tragic Italian writer, Marco Pantani, he was a
:08:42. > :08:47.brilliant ride, he ended up dead of an overdose of cocaine. He said at
:08:48. > :08:53.one point, entry the world of professional cycling was like a
:08:54. > :09:01.jointly by the mafia. Was there like a code of silence? Lodge cycling in
:09:02. > :09:14.totally and when I retired and you see performances, you saw the
:09:15. > :09:20.Armstrong year, in the press, USA, that is ridiculous, it cannot
:09:21. > :09:26.happen. It is only once the evidence comes out that you can put the
:09:27. > :09:31.pieces together. But the point is you are not a journalist, you were a
:09:32. > :09:37.ride. You rode alongside Armstrong. We do how systemic it was and I come
:09:38. > :09:44.back to this point... You inside, all of us outsiders were thinking
:09:45. > :09:51.that is just remarkable. I was focused on my career. I thought, why
:09:52. > :09:58.cannot I win the Tour de France, Clyde mountains... -- climb
:09:59. > :10:02.mountains. You are brilliant at the problems and time trials but
:10:03. > :10:08.mountain climbing was not your thing. We knew were in the peloton
:10:09. > :10:14.and the guys at the front charged forward and leave you chuffing and
:10:15. > :10:19.puffing, are you angry? Are you thinking of those guys are cheats?
:10:20. > :10:30.You live through periods thinking you just have to deal with what it
:10:31. > :10:34.is. I was very lucky to have one thing to be able to win in the short
:10:35. > :10:39.time trials and even that was by the end of the 90s only got to the point
:10:40. > :10:45.where I am not enjoying it and you mentioned I wife, in the late 90s,
:10:46. > :10:52.she said, I have had enough because I was miserable and were making all
:10:53. > :10:58.these sacrifices. Health is a big factor as well. Why my career was
:10:59. > :11:02.short. One thing that always strikes we were talking to the athletes,
:11:03. > :11:06.especially in a world tainted by drugs, the degree to which you feel
:11:07. > :11:12.cheated that nobody on the outside can never be quite sure that any of
:11:13. > :11:19.the participants in that era were absolutely clean. I mean, do you
:11:20. > :11:23.feel there is a cloud of suspicion? That would reflect on me. There is
:11:24. > :11:27.nothing I can do about it. It is that I cannot do anything about it
:11:28. > :11:32.but I do not spend a lot of time looking backwards because you to get
:11:33. > :11:38.it and twisted. You have to live your life. I did something that I
:11:39. > :11:45.enjoyed and then I did something else. I think, looking backwards, I
:11:46. > :11:49.only intend to look at in terms of how it pertains to what I'm going to
:11:50. > :11:55.do next. I think writing a book has caused the two go back and write
:11:56. > :12:00.something down. My last thought on this is whether you were ever faced
:12:01. > :12:06.with an active choice? Were you ever offered drugs? I think the Stuart
:12:07. > :12:13.O'Grady revelation was a surprise because our team was conspicuous by
:12:14. > :12:21.the fact that we could not do anything and get caught. My boss
:12:22. > :12:29.probably around 1994, he got us together after a classic in the team
:12:30. > :12:34.can't and said, right, I could see there is something really wrong here
:12:35. > :12:39.and it will hit the fans and it will take weeks or months - in the end it
:12:40. > :12:45.took years- but he said I do not what you hear any of that.
:12:46. > :12:51.Livelihood depends on resorts. -- results. The former head of the
:12:52. > :12:55.anti- doping agency said to me that he could not watch cycling any more
:12:56. > :13:02.because it is so tainted. It will take a long time full confidence to
:13:03. > :13:09.recover. I mean, we are 20 years old now and cycling is, in my opinion,
:13:10. > :13:14.probably one of the cleanest sport in the world but because it was
:13:15. > :13:17.uncovered and they put processes in place, do you have a culture that it
:13:18. > :13:24.would not be tolerated from within as well as without. Even though a
:13:25. > :13:32.lot of people who work in this area, people in Oxford, they say, it is a
:13:33. > :13:38.really the dumb dopers who get caught. Is talk about masking agents
:13:39. > :13:44.and timings, and facings and taking different compounds that can mask
:13:45. > :13:49.the star. I work in television and watch the races and it looks
:13:50. > :13:59.believable to me. Last year, I think everybody would was still very role,
:14:00. > :14:04.Chris through did very well and the French TV was questioning it and by
:14:05. > :14:10.the end he released test results and the old rule, you cannot prove a
:14:11. > :14:14.negative. The entire race came down to less than a minute and by the end
:14:15. > :14:20.of it, it looked extremely humid and that is what we need to thing. It
:14:21. > :14:26.has taken cycling years to recover from that.
:14:27. > :14:33.It is true of cycling that there is this constant ambition to push the
:14:34. > :14:38.envelope and to do things that take you to the very edge, both
:14:39. > :14:41.personally in terms of physical endurance, at also actually in terms
:14:42. > :14:46.of what you can do with the machine that you are riding. And you have
:14:47. > :14:51.is kind of obsessed with developing is kind of obsessed with developing
:14:52. > :14:57.the perfect writing machine. It is like, I just like making things, I
:14:58. > :15:00.mean from wood, personal performance, writing, I just love
:15:01. > :15:04.making things -- riding. I had an opportunity when I worked. I worked
:15:05. > :15:08.for a diving magazine and various other publications. Gap years I
:15:09. > :15:15.suppose before sucked back into British cycling. I had a coffee with
:15:16. > :15:18.Dave Brailsford after the 2004 Games and he said, the coating is going
:15:19. > :15:23.well and the athletes are really coming on but what about the other
:15:24. > :15:27.stuff? -- coaching. I said, what do you mean? He said there is helmets
:15:28. > :15:30.and clothing and bikes and wheels. All that stuff. Why don't you go
:15:31. > :15:36.away, do whatever you like, see what you can find out and see if you can
:15:37. > :15:40.make people faster. It was a unique opportunity people haven't had to go
:15:41. > :15:44.and explore, to have no commercially viable product at the end but to
:15:45. > :15:51.just make people go faster. You have a track record in that, it takes us
:15:52. > :15:55.back to 92, the Lotus Sp bite you wrote, it was new at the time, it
:15:56. > :15:58.was revolutionary and you developed a special helmet and you were very
:15:59. > :16:03.keen on your riding suit and all that sort of stuff -- Lotus Sport.
:16:04. > :16:10.In 96 when you conquer this amazing world record, the one-hour distance,
:16:11. > :16:16.you bust it completely, 56 kilometres in one hour. That was
:16:17. > :16:21.largely down to one individual, Graham, who you mentioned, who was
:16:22. > :16:24.the first real innovator, the person who stopped talking and thinking
:16:25. > :16:28.about the history and started talking about the demands of the
:16:29. > :16:35.event, and he simply went, well, if it is all about aerodynamics, about
:16:36. > :16:39.pushing out the air, if I am pushing these tubes, I am going to go
:16:40. > :16:44.faster. Changing the riding position. He was able up stock at
:16:45. > :16:49.the time. When you do that in 96 and smashed the record, the governing
:16:50. > :16:52.body of world cycling, UCI, said that is unacceptable -- he was the
:16:53. > :16:57.laughing stock at the time. They said you are making it a sport
:16:58. > :16:59.dominated by technicians rather than athletes and essentially they
:17:00. > :17:04.changed the rules and undermined your record and said it wasn't
:17:05. > :17:09.legitimate. Nor is always changed. In Formula One they have supercars.
:17:10. > :17:13.They said it was too fast -- rules always changed. Everything went back
:17:14. > :17:17.for a period of time and it has slowly caught up. Did you feel
:17:18. > :17:22.cheated? It is like the four-minute mile. Things happen. That was the
:17:23. > :17:27.day and these were the rules and we broke the record with those rules. I
:17:28. > :17:31.didn't spend any time thinking about it. I did it with the rules. Then
:17:32. > :17:38.the rules were changed. It is out of my hands. To an extent I agreed with
:17:39. > :17:43.them. It became human powered racing. It came out with the Lotus
:17:44. > :17:47.era. They said, you can't do that and he said, OK, I would do this. It
:17:48. > :17:51.would move away from cycling. They couldn't keep up and work out how to
:17:52. > :17:56.keep it as a sport of cycling. It was after 96 that they said OK. It
:17:57. > :18:00.is funny that you agree because you pushed it away from cycling. You
:18:01. > :18:04.push the rules and you but up against the edge. As a coach you but
:18:05. > :18:10.up against the edge. They move the goal and you move back. Is there
:18:11. > :18:15.mechanical doping today? There has been. It is technically possible. To
:18:16. > :18:20.put a battery and murder in a racing bike? As soon as you said you can
:18:21. > :18:25.have electric years in a bike then you have allowed that to be electric
:18:26. > :18:28.stand wiring inside a frame. I would be absolutely gobsmacked if it
:18:29. > :18:33.happened in mainstream cycling. There was one bike found at a cycle
:18:34. > :18:37.cross race. I think you can find an exception to any rule. When I watch
:18:38. > :18:40.the Tour de France in summer I can be 100% sure that there are no
:18:41. > :18:45.batteries helping those blokes pedal? I cannot be a person to
:18:46. > :18:52.ratify that for you but I would be gobsmacked, absolutely gobsmacked,
:18:53. > :18:56.and the bikes are checked, a very quick check over the bike, they
:18:57. > :18:59.scanned it for a electrics, and they can tell very quickly and they have
:19:00. > :19:05.even been using x-ray machines on the Tour de France -- electrics. It
:19:06. > :19:12.is the anti- advert for any team. I would be amazed. I would like to
:19:13. > :19:14.make one. Well, because you are somewhat obsessed with developing
:19:15. > :19:22.the perfect bike, have you tried putting little motors...? No, but
:19:23. > :19:25.that piece of equipment has been available for nearly 50 years and it
:19:26. > :19:28.is possible to take a stack of batteries and put them inside a
:19:29. > :19:33.bike, and if I ever made and e-bike I would want a bike that you cannot
:19:34. > :19:37.tell it is just a normal bike. One other area where it seems there is
:19:38. > :19:44.an interesting discussion about how far you go in terms of pushing
:19:45. > :19:46.yourself and your sport is in the coaching, and this has become very
:19:47. > :19:52.relevant in the last few months because Britain's top cycling coach,
:19:53. > :19:56.technical director of British cycling, he eventually had to
:19:57. > :20:00.resign, a guy called Jane Sutton, allegations from one female cyclist
:20:01. > :20:03.who had been on the elite programme that he had used sexist, bullying
:20:04. > :20:09.language towards her, other allegations involving some of the
:20:10. > :20:14.para- cycling team about bullying and Robert record and is, which he
:20:15. > :20:21.has denied, he said in no way was he sexist, he does has that manner and
:20:22. > :20:26.that is how he coaches. How far can you go? Every workplace you know
:20:27. > :20:30.have to know where the line is. Shane is very, Australian was the
:20:31. > :20:35.term, forthright, blunt, did he crossed the line, probably over the
:20:36. > :20:39.years, did Shane, but now the enquiry is put in place and now they
:20:40. > :20:44.are going to look into it and see what the outcome is. It is serious,
:20:45. > :20:48.isn't it, I mean, you responded quickly and said you felt it was a
:20:49. > :20:51.bit of a lynching in quotes. He is alleged to have said things... I was
:20:52. > :20:56.annoyed because it made it look like my comments were the British
:20:57. > :21:00.cycling... As a lynch mob. What we saw was a trial by press for a week
:21:01. > :21:05.and we didn't see things in context, and we saw one person held
:21:06. > :21:12.responsible for anything... For a variety of different issues around
:21:13. > :21:20.British cycling. But I mean if a male coach says twerk top athlete,
:21:21. > :21:23.go on, have a baby, as she alleges, that would be unacceptable? That
:21:24. > :21:30.would be unacceptable and that is why they will have an enquiry. I am
:21:31. > :21:33.not defending Shane. I have no position to be even way. I want to
:21:34. > :21:36.see what happens in the enquiry. I know if you have the conversation
:21:37. > :21:40.and say it won't go forward, maybe you want to think about going and
:21:41. > :21:44.having a family, do whatever you what now, you could take it and say
:21:45. > :21:48.that he said, go and have a baby, and it sounds different, so I am
:21:49. > :21:51.aware that in this job you can take things out of context very readily,
:21:52. > :21:56.as headlines were with me last week. It comes back to where we started,
:21:57. > :22:00.which is about the mentality of a cyclist. Because we are talking
:22:01. > :22:05.about 18, the British cycling team, and they have their own problems at
:22:06. > :22:07.the moment, but in the end it is a massive individual sport --a team.
:22:08. > :22:14.On the bike... To get to the end result it is a team sport. Lottery
:22:15. > :22:18.funding is for winning gold medals. That might change but when it was
:22:19. > :22:22.set up it was to win gold medals, it wasn't even a medal, not World
:22:23. > :22:26.Championships, not to develop the sport, but to win gold medals and I
:22:27. > :22:30.think passionately refers was the term. When I was involved it was
:22:31. > :22:33.exactly that. You are not making the grade. We will do everything to help
:22:34. > :22:37.you make the grade. If you don't make the grade you are gone. I have
:22:38. > :22:43.not heard that, compassionately roofless. When you reflect on your
:22:44. > :22:46.career in cycling and the stories we have discussed about some of the
:22:47. > :22:56.individuals that you have written alongside from Lance Armstrong to
:22:57. > :22:59.Marco Pantani, is there any part of you that Lee cycling is a deeply
:23:00. > :23:05.unhealthy sport? -- ruthless. It is no different to any other stored. We
:23:06. > :23:08.have seen that with athletics at the moment -- sport. It was ahead of the
:23:09. > :23:14.game. French Customs started the ball rolling and 98. That was when
:23:15. > :23:17.they pulled over someone and found products. Cycling has benefited from
:23:18. > :23:22.that. It's taken 20 years but I think it was because of that...
:23:23. > :23:25.Those circumstances ahead of the game. And I think although sports
:23:26. > :23:29.are having to go through the same thing now. You said you got six
:23:30. > :23:34.kids, and I wonder if any of them show any interest... I wonder if you
:23:35. > :23:40.would encourage them to go into...? I have kids who can do whatever they
:23:41. > :23:44.want. One is really into cycling. The rest are normal. They can do
:23:45. > :23:48.whatever they want. I fully support them. I am not wedded to cycling or
:23:49. > :23:52.sport. I enjoy watching sporting events. I am always quite happy to
:23:53. > :23:57.go and ride my bike to explore and go and do the gardening. Chris
:23:58. > :24:00.Boardman, it is a nice way to end, a nice thought to finish with. Thank
:24:01. > :24:28.you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you.
:24:29. > :24:33.We saw some torrential downpours across parts of the UK with thunder
:24:34. > :24:37.In fact, there were thousands of lightning strikes across the UK
:24:38. > :24:39.and there were some pretty significant impacts to go
:24:40. > :24:42.Tonight, the risk of those thunderstorms rumble
:24:43. > :24:45.on into the night, especially in the south-eastern quadrant