:00:00. > :00:07.Now on BBC News its time for Hardtalk.
:00:08. > :00:11.Britain's referendum campaign on whether
:00:12. > :00:13.to stay in or leave the
:00:14. > :00:14.European Union isn't quite going as Prime
:00:15. > :00:15.Minister David Cameron would
:00:16. > :00:21.The PM wants a convincing win for the Remain camp
:00:22. > :00:23.on the 23rd of June, but the polls suggest
:00:24. > :00:29.He probably hoped the divisions in his
:00:30. > :00:31.own Conservative Party could be kept in check.
:00:32. > :00:40.My guest is former Deputy Prime Minister and passionate Remain
:00:41. > :00:42.advocate Michael Heseltine, Lord Heseltine.
:00:43. > :01:07.Are the Remainers beginning to worry?
:01:08. > :01:21.It seems Prime Minister David Cameron's strategy is to frighten
:01:22. > :01:23.the British people into voting to remain inside the EU.
:01:24. > :01:26.Does it strike you that is a strategy that is going
:01:27. > :01:33.Brexit campaign have used in order to counter
:01:34. > :01:42.all the facts and all the opinions they don't like.
:01:43. > :01:44.So, they say that if the Governor of the Bank
:01:45. > :01:47.of England or the IMF or any of the big financial organisations
:01:48. > :01:49.say it will be very dangerous for Britain
:01:50. > :02:00.marketplace you're going to destroy, they say it's fear.
:02:01. > :02:02.They don't tell you that the large employers
:02:03. > :02:04.have countless small and medium-sized companies that depend
:02:05. > :02:07.If the Governor of the Bank of England or
:02:08. > :02:10.someone like that comes out, they say it's fear, because they
:02:11. > :02:18.They have no facts, they have no plans, and so
:02:19. > :02:22.all they can do is to attack David Cameron's warnings.
:02:23. > :02:24.The fact that his warnings have come from, I think
:02:25. > :02:32.it is fair to say, every friend this country has got in the world -
:02:33. > :02:35.all the Commonwealth leaders, the Americans, the companies that
:02:36. > :02:40.our universities, our academics, our scientists.
:02:41. > :02:43.One after the other, these groups have come out and said,
:02:44. > :02:46.for God's sake, don't throw away one of the most successful, democratic,
:02:47. > :02:49.peaceful organisations the world has ever created.
:02:50. > :02:51.But politics is about perceptions, isn't it?
:02:52. > :03:07.The people will decide, and the public
:03:08. > :03:09.have decided that the Remain campaign, within which you are a
:03:10. > :03:15.powerful voice, is the more negative campaign.
:03:16. > :03:19.42%-28% see it as more negative than the Leave campaign.
:03:20. > :03:21.To be honest, I don't think these polls are worth
:03:22. > :03:26.the space they get in the newspapers.
:03:27. > :03:30.The pollsters themselves don't believe it, because on the one
:03:31. > :03:33.poll that they could try and do, the exit poll on the day,
:03:34. > :03:37.Because they are frightened of getting it as
:03:38. > :03:39.wrong as they did in the general election.
:03:40. > :03:41.Whilst they have got to do
:03:42. > :03:43.these polls, because they are big commercial organisations and they
:03:44. > :03:46.can't say they don't know, they themselves don't believe it.
:03:47. > :03:49.Can I just remind you about Scotland?
:03:50. > :03:50.10 days out in Scotland, people were
:03:51. > :03:54.Ten days later, actually it was 60-40 to
:03:55. > :04:05.Frankly, the only thing of interest now are the arguments about whether
:04:06. > :04:13.I asked you about the Cameron strategy.
:04:14. > :04:16.You defended him and said it is not based upon fear.
:04:17. > :04:19.Does that mean that you, like him, think that it is a
:04:20. > :04:21.fair and accurate thing to tell the British
:04:22. > :04:23.people that if they vote to leave the European Union,
:04:24. > :04:26.that their traditional protections for their pensions are
:04:27. > :04:32.going to disappear - that pensions would be cut?
:04:33. > :04:40.People have been frightened by what Cameron has said.
:04:41. > :04:42.Haven't you seen the stock exchange today and over the last week?
:04:43. > :04:44.It goes up and down, month after month
:04:45. > :04:48.It is down about 10% over the last year.
:04:49. > :04:55.To the simplistic, it's the bloody financial
:04:56. > :04:56.people, the bigwigs and
:04:57. > :04:58.all this sort of stuff, the remote elite.
:04:59. > :05:02.It's your insurance companies, it's your pensions.
:05:03. > :05:06.That's what the London stock exchange represents.
:05:07. > :05:08.It's the pension pots of millions of British people.
:05:09. > :05:11.David Cameron is the British Prime Minister, and he promised
:05:12. > :05:13.during the last election campaign that he would maintain the triple
:05:14. > :05:17.He also said that the Tory party would always defend
:05:18. > :05:21.Now, he is calling into question both of those
:05:22. > :05:23.fundamental priorities listed as part of his election campaign.
:05:24. > :05:33.I thought George Osborne put another ?6 billion
:05:34. > :05:34.into the health service the other day.
:05:35. > :05:44.Have you not heard what Cameron and Osbourne are saying?
:05:45. > :05:48.-- Have you not heard what Cameron and Osborne are saying?
:05:49. > :05:50.They argue that if Brexit is the decision
:05:51. > :05:52.taken by the British people, pensions will be threatened,
:05:53. > :05:54.the NHS will be threatened, as though they don't have
:05:55. > :05:58.This is, in some way, automatic, they say, if we vote to
:05:59. > :06:01.I don't think you've followed the logic.
:06:02. > :06:03.What they are saying is that if Britain's economy
:06:04. > :06:06.that will flow through into the health service finances.
:06:07. > :06:10.They still have political choices to make.
:06:11. > :06:13.They have a political choice to make, which is to stay within
:06:14. > :06:17.Europe and not shatter the prospects for our economy.
:06:18. > :06:26.If you do something to prejudice that, the
:06:27. > :06:28.consequence will hit the growth of the British economy.
:06:29. > :06:35.Wait a minute, you cannot ask questions and then
:06:36. > :06:36.leave out the important bit of the answer.
:06:37. > :06:38.If you do something to prejudice the British
:06:39. > :06:41.economy, the ability of the taxpayer to pay for
:06:42. > :06:42.the health service and social services
:06:43. > :06:44.is prejudiced, so how much will
:06:45. > :06:46.Brexit admit that their uncertainty is going to damage the
:06:47. > :06:56.We have endless forecasts, starting with the Governor of the
:06:57. > :06:58.Bank of England, the IFS, the OECD, one after
:06:59. > :07:00.the other, pointing to the
:07:01. > :07:07.If David Cameron truly believed that the
:07:08. > :07:11.consequences of Brexit would be, as you describe, on pensions, on the
:07:12. > :07:14.health service, on the British economy as a whole, how could he 14
:07:15. > :07:18.weeks ago, just 14 weeks ago, say that he would not rule out
:07:19. > :07:20.recommending a Brexit, still depending on how his negotiation
:07:21. > :07:31.How could he possibly have meant that if now he tells us the Brexit
:07:32. > :07:37.actually puts, in his words, a bomb under the British economy?
:07:38. > :07:40.I think I can tell you why he could recommend
:07:41. > :07:43.that - he didn't conceive it possible that the British people
:07:44. > :07:45.would take a leap in the dark, a jump off
:07:46. > :07:46.the high diving board into
:07:47. > :07:49.water that is too shallow, a risk that every significant economic
:07:50. > :07:55.and which Brexit has no answer to at all.
:07:56. > :08:00.Do you think the David Cameron should not have taken the risk?
:08:01. > :08:03.No, because he thought he would get a deal.
:08:04. > :08:06.He didn't get a deal that addresses any of this.
:08:07. > :08:11.If you listen to these Brexit guys, their
:08:12. > :08:14.great case is that you are frozen into Europe and there is nothing you
:08:15. > :08:21.There are many aspects of that, but let's take the facts.
:08:22. > :08:26.We haven't got the Schengen free movement of people.
:08:27. > :08:27.Margaret Thatcher got a significant rebate.
:08:28. > :08:33.John Major got a social policy opt-out at Maastricht.
:08:34. > :08:37.David Cameron has got a protection for our
:08:38. > :08:39.services industry, has got rid of the ever
:08:40. > :08:42.closer union, and a year or two ago, when the European
:08:43. > :08:46.going to increase the budgets, increase the taxes on the rest of
:08:47. > :08:49.the European Union, what did David Cameron do?
:08:50. > :08:54.Did he lie back and say, buckle up, all those
:08:55. > :08:58.bureaucrats have told me we are going to to have to pay more tax?
:08:59. > :09:01.He didn't, he went round the 27 capitals of Europe,
:09:02. > :09:05.and said to our fellow leaders, we won't put up with this.
:09:06. > :09:11.And they won, and Brussels had to climb down.
:09:12. > :09:14.There were not increases in the budget, because the ministers who
:09:15. > :09:19.I asked you at the beginning about the mindset of
:09:20. > :09:21.the Remain campaign, saying it was negative.
:09:22. > :09:24.It seems to me there is a fundamental
:09:25. > :09:26.lack of confidence in the Remain campaign
:09:27. > :09:27.about the ability of the
:09:28. > :09:29.British economy to be an independent, open and successful
:09:30. > :09:31.economy, trading with the world, not locked
:09:32. > :09:32.into the European Union, but
:09:33. > :09:45.We are the European financial centre of the world.
:09:46. > :10:00.Michael Gove's suggestion that the Germans, for example,
:10:01. > :10:02.won't want to trade with Britain is fanciful.
:10:03. > :10:09.The fanciful element is that he links our 47% going to
:10:10. > :10:11.Europe with the 7% that is coming back from Germany.
:10:12. > :10:18.Why not, if we're really going talk about history, there are
:10:19. > :10:22.27 individual sovereign nations engaged in this.
:10:23. > :10:31.Let's take the opposite end of Germany - Malta.
:10:32. > :10:34.If we cut off our supply of money to Europe, Malta has got
:10:35. > :10:40.It also, by cutting off our supply, would not
:10:41. > :10:53.get the money it now gets from Europe.
:10:54. > :10:56.Let me quote to you, a If 35-year-old, the CEO of
:10:57. > :11:01.She says she wants to be able to trade with
:11:02. > :11:04.She doesn't actually do that much trade with the EU.
:11:05. > :11:06.She had a delegation recently over from Brazil.
:11:07. > :11:09.They wanted to buy hovercraft, but because of the EU-
:11:10. > :11:11.Brazil trade deal, with high tariffs, they could not buy
:11:12. > :11:18.Leaving the EU represents an incredible opportunity
:11:19. > :11:29.The Confederation of British Industry,
:11:30. > :11:32.the British Chambers of Commerce, the Engineering Employers'
:11:33. > :11:38.representative group of British companies believes we should
:11:39. > :11:46.That's hundreds and hundreds, if not millions of people.
:11:47. > :11:50.With respect, it's actually a few, many would say,
:11:51. > :11:56.establishment business representation organisations.
:11:57. > :11:58.I don't know how much campaigning you've done.
:11:59. > :12:00.When you go to a city like Middlesbrough,
:12:01. > :12:11.Britain has prospered inside the EU, they say,
:12:12. > :12:13.it is all right for the metropolitan elite
:12:14. > :12:15.in London and the south-east, where there is
:12:16. > :12:18.prosperity, talking about the advantages
:12:19. > :12:20.of the EU, but talk about immigration,
:12:21. > :12:23.and the fact that in my town there are now hundreds of
:12:24. > :12:27.people from the rest of the EU who are taking low-paid jobs and our
:12:28. > :12:32.Our children are finding that the schools are full.
:12:33. > :12:34.Many of the schools are full of immigrants.
:12:35. > :12:44.Against that, I went to do Any Questions
:12:45. > :12:52.The overwhelming audience response was to remain.
:12:53. > :12:55.I went to the Oxford union - you will say that this is
:12:56. > :13:02.I think it is a great exemplar of everything
:13:03. > :13:09.I did Sutton Coldfield on Saturday, a
:13:10. > :13:15.But there is no point in trying to select individual
:13:16. > :13:20.One has to deal with the arguments and the facts.
:13:21. > :13:22.Let's get back to immigration, because it's
:13:23. > :13:29.I am the first to recognise that with the difficulties
:13:30. > :13:35.of the world economy since 2008, there has been a growing resentment
:13:36. > :13:37.amongst a significant number of people which has turned into a
:13:38. > :13:48.It's got nothing to do with the European Union, it is all about
:13:49. > :14:02.Farage in this country is exactly the same.
:14:03. > :14:05.Basically, underlying it all, as Trump has said, we will not have
:14:06. > :14:07.any Muslims in America and we will put up the frontier...
:14:08. > :14:09.You said, let's talk the specifics of immigration.
:14:10. > :14:17.We had figures last week that announced over 300,000 net
:14:18. > :14:23.188,000 of those, the majority, had nothing
:14:24. > :14:29.The point about freedom of movement in the EU is
:14:30. > :14:33.that the British Government has absolutely no control over how many
:14:34. > :14:39.people move to the UK from inside the EU.
:14:40. > :14:42.Tell me this - why do you think
:14:43. > :14:48.we should be so successful in changing the flow in Europe by
:14:49. > :14:50.leaving it when we can't control the flow
:14:51. > :15:07.if the British government chose to, they are talking about an Australian
:15:08. > :15:11.points system. They could impose controls on movement from the rest
:15:12. > :15:16.of the European Union into this country if they were allowed to do
:15:17. > :15:22.so. It is not allowed under the EU. You are switching your case. It is
:15:23. > :15:26.actually about half in half and this government has a choice on both of
:15:27. > :15:30.those. So why not asked why they didn't
:15:31. > :15:36.impose controls on those coming from outside the EU? It is a fundamental
:15:37. > :15:40.issue being discussed no on this programme by me because the argument
:15:41. > :15:45.is categorical. The reason they didn't control the majority from
:15:46. > :15:49.outside is because we need them. We need them for two reasons. And we
:15:50. > :15:52.make need them from inside as well but the issue is one of control
:15:53. > :15:56.which you seem to be ignoring. There is no control under the Freedom of
:15:57. > :16:02.movement system inside the European Union. You would surely accept that?
:16:03. > :16:07.There is no control outside and the reasons are the same. We need the
:16:08. > :16:15.people for two reasons. Two big reasons. The first is skills. Have a
:16:16. > :16:21.very successful growing economy and are desperate for skills. Secondly,
:16:22. > :16:27.there is the whole problem of supporting our social services. If
:16:28. > :16:30.you go to any aspect of our social services, particularly the health
:16:31. > :16:34.service and all the welfare provision in general, you will find
:16:35. > :16:41.a very large number of able have come from overseas. You did mention
:16:42. > :16:45.an interesting point about the points system. Let us think about
:16:46. > :16:55.the points system for a minute. What attack choices we will keep the
:16:56. > :17:00.numbers down because then we can select the numbers. What does that
:17:01. > :17:06.mean? It means you go to the poorest countries in the world with a
:17:07. > :17:09.doctors and nurses at taxpayers' expenses in the poorest countries
:17:10. > :17:14.and then we see come here. What Mirallas he is that and what do
:17:15. > :17:19.think it does to the public opinion in those countries being deprived of
:17:20. > :17:26.the most talented people? -- what morality do you think that is. The
:17:27. > :17:29.only solution to migration is to close the gap between the rich and
:17:30. > :17:38.poor and if you start working on the assumption that the registry regard
:17:39. > :17:42.to cream the most talented, you will create resentment and secondly you
:17:43. > :17:44.will find it harder to build those economies and persuade people to
:17:45. > :17:52.stay there. I hear your passion and you have
:17:53. > :17:59.been a passionate advocate for the European Union alter your career.
:18:00. > :18:06.Why do you think older Britons of your generation do not agree with
:18:07. > :18:12.you? And why do many people living away from the prosperous south-east
:18:13. > :18:16.of the UK economy are wondering what is going on here?
:18:17. > :18:21.You're making assumptions about what is going on in the rest of the
:18:22. > :18:25.country. One has to have some sort of sense
:18:26. > :18:29.in what is going on across the country. I think there is no doubt
:18:30. > :18:34.that young people are going to be inclined to remain in but older
:18:35. > :18:40.people, according to most of the polls, I don't know if you're going
:18:41. > :18:46.to dispute this, older people tend to be in a majority to leave.
:18:47. > :18:51.I don't agree with that and neither do you really because there are
:18:52. > :18:57.plenty of older people in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales and the
:18:58. > :19:00.do not agree with that, they want to remain. Generalising is dangerous
:19:01. > :19:06.but when I do agree with you is that it seems to me that the younger
:19:07. > :19:10.people want it. I was immensely impressed and am now going to commit
:19:11. > :19:19.the crime that she pages you of doing which is to home in on one
:19:20. > :19:25.person as the exemplar. The train young people to deny them the
:19:26. > :19:32.opportunities -- betraying our young people and might -- and denying them
:19:33. > :19:38.the opportunities of peace and security. We talked about peace and
:19:39. > :19:44.security. Do you notice a condition of Europe that you have to be a
:19:45. > :19:46.democracy? You know that since he created the European Union we got
:19:47. > :19:51.rid of the fascists in Spain and Portugal.
:19:52. > :19:57.There are plenty of democracy is not in the European Union.
:19:58. > :20:05.It is a condition and we have spread the Marquis is part of the European
:20:06. > :20:09.Union. -- spread democracy. I know you have a historical
:20:10. > :20:14.perspective on this but I want to talk about the future of the party
:20:15. > :20:19.that you love and have worked for. They are in a terrible mess. Let me
:20:20. > :20:23.quote words from John Major about Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and the
:20:24. > :20:29.leadership of the Leave campaign. The cold than dishonest, deceitful,
:20:30. > :20:33.squalid. He described Boris Johnson as a court jester. Do you share his
:20:34. > :20:40.sentiments? Sure. Boris is a huge joke. I love
:20:41. > :20:45.Boris. And squalid?
:20:46. > :20:52.You mustn't take Boris on his own terms. Sometimes the go horribly
:20:53. > :21:00.wrong. His joke about Hitler, well, it wasn't a joke, was it?
:21:01. > :21:04.Would you accept Boris Johnson as Prime Minister of your party would
:21:05. > :21:08.you see your falling apart? I'm not going to get into
:21:09. > :21:14.speculation about losing because I don't think were going to lose. I
:21:15. > :21:18.was John Major's deputy for two years and I so the damage that the
:21:19. > :21:26.Eurosceptic case did to John Major's government. I do admire hugely that
:21:27. > :21:29.David Cameron has secured a Conservative majority for the first
:21:30. > :21:32.time for a considerable period of time and I do believe it would be
:21:33. > :21:44.damaging to the Conservative Party at his leadership was ended.
:21:45. > :21:50.David Cameron bid began soon after a victory for the Leave campaign.
:21:51. > :21:53.But I don't leave in it. You don't want to believe in it but
:21:54. > :21:57.the polls suggest it could go either way. Do you accept that David
:21:58. > :21:59.Cameron has no future as Prime Minister if the Leave campaign
:22:00. > :22:04.whence? You're back on the polls.
:22:05. > :22:08.I am back on accepting the possibility.
:22:09. > :22:12.I don't blame you but you've got to try and get headlines out of this
:22:13. > :22:18.programme and the best way to do that is to get me to agree with an
:22:19. > :22:25.assumption. You're not going to win because I know the dangers more than
:22:26. > :22:32.you do. Your experience of politics goes far
:22:33. > :22:37.beyond mine but with you agree that a Prime Minister who said leaving
:22:38. > :22:45.the EU is putting a bomb under the future of the country could not
:22:46. > :22:49.continue to lead if the Leeds side wins?
:22:50. > :22:55.I support, I will go on doing so and I think he will win.
:22:56. > :23:00.If the Leave campaign wins or even if it doesn't, which in OC it is a
:23:01. > :23:07.terrible mistake for Britain to be having a referendum on leaving the
:23:08. > :23:11.European Union? I had all these questions written
:23:12. > :23:18.down before I came here. How will they get me to make a headline?
:23:19. > :23:24.I am interested in your perspective on what is happening in Britain
:23:25. > :23:29.today. Do you think is right that Britain
:23:30. > :23:32.is having this referendum? What is the point in discussing
:23:33. > :23:37.that? We are having it. We are facing the most momentous and
:23:38. > :23:45.disastrous decision in my political history and I want to do all I know
:23:46. > :23:52.how to put the arguments to stay in for Britain's sake, it's
:23:53. > :23:57.self-interest. You cannot ignore this accumulation of power on our
:23:58. > :24:00.doorstep and I do not want to be the boss sitting outside saying they do
:24:01. > :24:04.not want to listen to us. I want to influence the decisions and the only
:24:05. > :24:09.way to do that is to be sitting at the tables.
:24:10. > :24:39.We have to end there. Thank you for being on Hardtalk.
:24:40. > :24:40.Good evening. For some of us another day of leaden skies and slow-moving