:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk, with Zeinab Badawi. It is four years since
:00:20. > :00:21.Julian Assange took refuge in the Ecuadorian embassy in London to
:00:22. > :00:24.avoid extradition to Sweden over sexual assault charges, which he
:00:25. > :00:27.denies. Mr Assange claims that he could end up being sent to the
:00:28. > :00:28.United States and put on trial for espionage, on the grounds of the
:00:29. > :00:30.publication of thousands of classified military and diplomatic
:00:31. > :00:32.documents on his website, WikiLeaks. But how can Ecuador claim to uphold
:00:33. > :00:34.transparency and freedom of expression when its own government
:00:35. > :00:43.stands accused of systematically violating press freedoms at home? My
:00:44. > :00:45.guest is Guillaume Long, the newly appointed Foreign Minister of
:00:46. > :01:27.Ecuador. THEME SONG PLAYS. Guillaume Long,
:01:28. > :01:34.welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. TU believe Julian Assange will leave
:01:35. > :01:40.the embassy in London soon -- do you. I would like him to. I fear for
:01:41. > :01:47.his health. He has been there for four years. A very long time. We
:01:48. > :01:53.have been arguing and Ecuador has been pushing the view that it should
:01:54. > :01:57.be resolved swiftly. We think it is possible. We need a few guarantees
:01:58. > :02:01.to make sure there is no political persecution and he can be on his
:02:02. > :02:07.way. The Swedish prosecutor has said she is willing to have him
:02:08. > :02:11.questioned inside the embassy. The UK has given its permission. We are
:02:12. > :02:20.waiting for a response from Ecuador. Why not? That is a very recent
:02:21. > :02:24.development of the last few weeks. We have been asking this for four
:02:25. > :02:29.years. Over 1400 days of asking this. Isn't a few weeks enough time?
:02:30. > :02:36.We're working on it with our lawyers. We are happy we have this
:02:37. > :02:40.request at last. There is a major game-changer ahead of the UN
:02:41. > :02:45.resolution that establishes Julian Assange... It has been held for four
:02:46. > :02:51.years. He has been held under arbitrary detention. This has major
:02:52. > :02:57.repercussions. A highly respected UN body is calling on the British and
:02:58. > :03:06.Swedish authorities to respect this. It says that Mr Assange is being
:03:07. > :03:13.held arbitrarily. That is the UN report you are referring to. Just to
:03:14. > :03:19.reiterate, will you allow Mr Assange to be questioned inside the embassy?
:03:20. > :03:24.The initial intention is just that. But just as the Swedish state, this
:03:25. > :03:29.is a judicial matter. A decision for the Attorney General to take. It is
:03:30. > :03:34.not a light decision. It has just arrived. We have been waiting four
:03:35. > :03:40.years for it. We will take a decision in the coming days based on
:03:41. > :03:46.the global judicial case, it including the UN resolution. You say
:03:47. > :03:51.you fear for his integrity and his health he has been in your embassy
:03:52. > :03:55.for four years and so on, yet, you have the ability, the authorities in
:03:56. > :04:00.Ecuador, to bring a resolution by allowing him to be questioned. You
:04:01. > :04:05.are sitting on this. We aren't sitting on it at all. It arrived a
:04:06. > :04:12.few days ago. We have been waiting four years for this. Ecuador has
:04:13. > :04:16.systematically said we can resolve this through having the guarantees
:04:17. > :04:20.he will not be extradited. That is what you are waiting for. Your
:04:21. > :04:25.predecessors that is the guarantee he from the Swedes and Britain, that
:04:26. > :04:31.he will not be extradited to the US. That is what... That is what you are
:04:32. > :04:34.saying? What we have been saying for four years is the Swedes can
:04:35. > :04:42.interrogate him in our embassy. They have done this many times. 44
:04:43. > :04:52.requests in the time he has been in our embassy to interrogate different
:04:53. > :04:57.people in different. -- contexts. It is a major game-changer. In January,
:04:58. > :05:02.the US has said he was being held in arbitrary detention. A resolution by
:05:03. > :05:07.the UN in this case is not a minor issue. There are lawyers and they
:05:08. > :05:13.are lawyers. You have different opinions. The Executive Director of
:05:14. > :05:19.the global outfit based in the UK says, of the UN working report, it
:05:20. > :05:25.is important to maintain a adherence to make sure that individuals have
:05:26. > :05:29.to abide by legal rulings. -- adherence. It is surprising to think
:05:30. > :05:33.he could be extended from those principles. The ruling by the UN
:05:34. > :05:39.panel is not binding by British law. The irony is that Sweden and Britain
:05:40. > :05:43.have called in other countries to abide by this ruling. In this case,
:05:44. > :05:46.because it affects their behaviour, they are saying it is not binding.
:05:47. > :05:54.He has nothing to do with the British government. He is a lawyer.
:05:55. > :06:00.There are lawyers and there are lawyers. I have spoken to many
:06:01. > :06:08.authoritative voices that they it is a paradox and ironic that this UN
:06:09. > :06:19.ruling... Britain and Sweden have called on its many times do I buy --
:06:20. > :06:23.abide by. Suddenly it is a nonissue. It is ironic. The UK, let's not
:06:24. > :06:27.forget, it is on the UN council of human rights. Into that an ethics,
:06:28. > :06:34.in order to be elected on this council, they said we pledge our
:06:35. > :06:38.full commitment to abide by any human rights ruling. -- in 2006,. It
:06:39. > :06:47.isn't just the UK, it is Sweden. It isn't just these countries
:06:48. > :06:51.disobeying these principles. You are talking about two countries that are
:06:52. > :06:59.mature democracies with judicial use and so on. -- judiciaries. When a UN
:07:00. > :07:05.spokesman says Julian Assange has never been arbitrarily detained by
:07:06. > :07:11.the UK, he is in fact avoiding lawful arrest by choosing to remain
:07:12. > :07:17.in the Ecuadorian Embassy. This is a serious debate. The accusation of
:07:18. > :07:22.rape is still outstanding and a European Arrest Warrant is in place.
:07:23. > :07:27.That is the British government's position. When you talk about the
:07:28. > :07:33.law, there is international law. You cannot just say I agree with this
:07:34. > :07:39.ruling so I will abide by international law or the opposite.
:07:40. > :07:45.Year is wanted for questioning over serious allegations. And we have
:07:46. > :07:49.never had a problem with that. -- he is wanted. We have always said we
:07:50. > :07:54.won't stand in the way of any case in Sweden. You say he won't be
:07:55. > :08:03.extradited to the US. You are obstruct injustice in a way. --
:08:04. > :08:08.obstructing. It is serious. He didn't just reveal the cable leaks,
:08:09. > :08:14.he revealed massacres in Iraq. This isn't a minor thing. Rape
:08:15. > :08:18.allegations! I am not saying whether he is guilty or not. That is not the
:08:19. > :08:24.purpose of this interview. But an a serious matters? They are extremely
:08:25. > :08:31.serious. That is why we don't have a problem with the Swedish case. This
:08:32. > :08:36.has nothing to do with the rape allegations, not extraditing him.
:08:37. > :08:40.And the interview in our embassy. That has taken four years to
:08:41. > :08:44.materialise. It takes a few days in other countries. Have finally had a
:08:45. > :08:49.request in the last few days and we will deal with it. Obviously, it is
:08:50. > :08:56.a legal matter, just like the Swedes say. Your position is clear. You say
:08:57. > :09:00.that you fear for the health and integrity of Julian Assange. That is
:09:01. > :09:04.right. If this was the other way around and Ecuador was in breach of
:09:05. > :09:11.ruling it would be eight scandal. You would be asking me why I did
:09:12. > :09:19.this... I wouldn't say that. Why do you fear for his health? Four years
:09:20. > :09:23.in a very small space! He has... A number of medical doctors have been
:09:24. > :09:27.analysing the situation. I mean, this is a really inhumane... That is
:09:28. > :09:35.why the UN called it arbitrary detention. That is a serious matter.
:09:36. > :09:40.His health. He is OK but he has a problem in his arm and he has
:09:41. > :09:45.deteriorating health. He needs hospital treatment? Does he need
:09:46. > :09:48.me to decide. But, yeah, we are me to decide. But, yeah, we are
:09:49. > :09:53.concerned about his health. He doesn't have access to good old
:09:54. > :10:04.care. That is clear. We are very worried about this. -- healthcare.
:10:05. > :10:07.Do you know how much it cost to maintain security at the embassy?
:10:08. > :10:17.Are they getting fed up? Very fed up. It is an embassy under siege. It
:10:18. > :10:20.is probably one of the most spied on embassies in the whole world. It is
:10:21. > :10:29.difficult for those working there. It isn't an easy decision. We took
:10:30. > :10:33.this decision based on our humanitarian principles because we
:10:34. > :10:41.believe he is physical integrity is at risk. This is a human right.
:10:42. > :10:47.OK... With the number of states, the UK, Sweden, obviously, a big part of
:10:48. > :10:52.it, but also the United States. It is difficult to sustain for Ecuador.
:10:53. > :10:57.But we took the decision to ask for guarantees for him not to be
:10:58. > :11:04.extradited. With no regrets? We cannot confirm or deny, from the
:11:05. > :11:09.Foreign Office of the United States, we cannot confirm or deny whether
:11:10. > :11:16.there is an extradition request. This could go on for a long time. I
:11:17. > :11:22.think time has proven us right. So you have no regrets. Some would say,
:11:23. > :11:25.your critics would say, Ecuador is saying it is a champion of freedom
:11:26. > :11:31.of speech and transparency, when there have been many criticisms of
:11:32. > :11:42.freedom of speech, expression, and all that, in Ecuador. The editor of
:11:43. > :11:46.in Ecuador newspaper says they have granted asylum to Julian Assange
:11:47. > :11:50.because he defends freedom of speech, but the country doesn't have
:11:51. > :11:54.freedom of speech itself in the press. I disagree with that
:11:55. > :12:00.completely. I disagree with that media campaign. Ecuador has absolute
:12:01. > :12:09.media three expression. The press is, by and large, in Ecuador, in the
:12:10. > :12:19.hands of private media. About 90%. There is a much smaller media sector
:12:20. > :12:29.than in in this country. -- in. There are many very right-wing and
:12:30. > :12:37.aggressive... That is the point. There is no censorship, though. We
:12:38. > :12:41.have a regulatory body that didn't exist before, like in this country.
:12:42. > :12:53.If there is racism or sexism, or hate... That is normal. It didn't
:12:54. > :12:59.exist before. There has been some backlash on behalf of our press for
:13:00. > :13:05.what has happened. You have critics. Censorship. Reporters Without
:13:06. > :13:11.Borders. The UN's Frank LaRue has said of this you have just brought
:13:12. > :13:22.up that some of the laws' revisions are unacceptable. He says he regrets
:13:23. > :13:28.it wasn't brought up to a larger debate. That is a serious criticism.
:13:29. > :13:34.The law was extremely positive. It was approved through Congress. It is
:13:35. > :13:42.legitimate. It is very similar to European laws where you have a
:13:43. > :13:48.regulatory body. You have a freedom of debate criticism here, the
:13:49. > :13:54.tapping of phones, the same serious issues in Ecuador. The thing is, in
:13:55. > :13:58.Latin America, there has been no regulation. There has been no
:13:59. > :14:01.history of this public accountability of the press in
:14:02. > :14:07.society. And, the media, let's not forget, there is the context in
:14:08. > :14:13.Ecuador of a close tie to 19th-century foundation Ellies, they
:14:14. > :14:18.aren't happy with the reform process in Ecuador. -- elites. They have
:14:19. > :14:24.become a political opposition. Instead of bringing politicians to
:14:25. > :14:27.account ability, which is what the media should do, they have become
:14:28. > :14:32.politicians themselves. -- accountability. You are saying that
:14:33. > :14:40.the UN working report on Julian Assange use great and now... -- is.
:14:41. > :14:45.There is a meeting of the UN council next week which will have a binding
:14:46. > :14:51.finding on the freedom of expression in the case of Ecuador. We can talk
:14:52. > :14:55.after that. Right now this is an opinion.
:14:56. > :15:02.He is highly respected that they are UN bodies, international law is
:15:03. > :15:05.international law. Let me give you some examples of why people say that
:15:06. > :15:11.press freedom is really constrained in your country. A magazine in
:15:12. > :15:15.September 2012 published an article which advocates a no vote against
:15:16. > :15:20.President Correa. It was to do with the referendum. And what happens? Is
:15:21. > :15:25.fined $80,000. I will give you another example, the website
:15:26. > :15:30.Republican, an online publication in June 2015, all broadcast live
:15:31. > :15:34.footage of social protest and their websites were disabled for several
:15:35. > :15:39.hours. That's not true, but in this country... You can't just a that.
:15:40. > :15:43.The media get find all the time. You have libel cases all the time in the
:15:44. > :15:46.United Kingdom. It is very similar to what happens in Ecuador. This
:15:47. > :15:49.didn't happen before. So the media are obviously surprised that very
:15:50. > :15:54.suddenly they are held to account. They are held to account for libel
:15:55. > :15:58.and defamation. That's exactly what we are talking about, those kind of
:15:59. > :16:01.phones are exacted what we are talking about. You have President
:16:02. > :16:05.Correa regularly tearing up newspapers. He did one in 2015, most
:16:06. > :16:10.recently, denouncing what he calls the corrupt press. Well, there is a
:16:11. > :16:15.corrupt press and he denounced at there has been no censorship. But on
:16:16. > :16:17.his national broadcaster. You have to differentiate a political
:16:18. > :16:21.conflict between our government and some extreme right-wing press that
:16:22. > :16:26.spends its time criticising us, that has very aggressive headlines, a lot
:16:27. > :16:31.of racist, sexist, hate headlines, that would be fined in this country.
:16:32. > :16:36.Racist and sexist would be fined, but not criticism of the government.
:16:37. > :16:39.This is nothing to do a criticism of government. It is very aggressive
:16:40. > :16:44.press and then you have President Correa, who fights back. Now, the
:16:45. > :16:47.media are not used to this. By tearing up newspapers? By saying
:16:48. > :16:50.they are lying, by saying this is wrong, by saying this is completely
:16:51. > :16:55.unacceptable, but certainly not by censoring. There is a difference.
:16:56. > :16:58.You can answer the media, which is very different from having
:16:59. > :17:02.censorship. There is no censorship in April. You will see all the
:17:03. > :17:06.newspaper but saying very nasty things about the government without
:17:07. > :17:09.any consequences. As I said, there are opinions within and outside
:17:10. > :17:14.Ecuador that beg to differ with you. Not only is the critics about the
:17:15. > :17:16.press freedom, you also have now protests, anti-government protests
:17:17. > :17:20.in Ecuador, particularly from Indigenous people. The very people
:17:21. > :17:24.whom President Correa says he championed when he first came to
:17:25. > :17:28.power about a decade ago. That is very serious for you. You have got
:17:29. > :17:33.them saying water rights have been violated. I will give you one
:17:34. > :17:38.example, the president representing one group of people says of water
:17:39. > :17:42.rights the water is in the hands of multinationals that commercialise
:17:43. > :17:46.bottled water. You have people protesting against oil exploration
:17:47. > :17:50.rights in a remote part of the Amazon rainforest that has been
:17:51. > :17:55.given to the Chinese. These are your natural constituency, you are
:17:56. > :17:59.alienating. With whom we got 65% of the vote in the first round. The
:18:00. > :18:03.Indigenous people are a huge majority of Indigenous people
:18:04. > :18:06.supporting our government. The last British euro 30 were in June last
:18:07. > :18:09.year. Kayak sleeping in a European context they are much more frequent
:18:10. > :18:15.and much more large-scale protests. The large protests were in June...
:18:16. > :18:18.But the nature of the process? They were basically middle-class protest
:18:19. > :18:22.against tax reform. They went Indigenous groups. That was part of
:18:23. > :18:28.it, you had lusty, as you said, thousands blocking roads in six of
:18:29. > :18:31.the country's provinces, a year ago. -- that was year. Raising real
:18:32. > :18:36.estate levies, but you also had poor people protesting against
:18:37. > :18:44.reductions, proposed reductions, in welfare payments. No, not at all.
:18:45. > :18:47.With the poor? Are they going to be reductions in welfare payments? If
:18:48. > :18:51.you have a look at the demonstrations last year in June,
:18:52. > :18:55.they were very violent, there was a number of police officers that were
:18:56. > :18:59.wounded, over 110, there was a police officer that was kidnapped,
:19:00. > :19:02.kidnapped and tortured. Imagine what that would mean in a European
:19:03. > :19:06.context. But I would say by and large obviously there were thousands
:19:07. > :19:09.of people out on the street protesting these taxes. So there was
:19:10. > :19:13.a wide array from all different aspects of society. But by and large
:19:14. > :19:17.if you look at those protest they were middle class and upper-class
:19:18. > :19:22.protests. The oil exploration, though, that Indigenous people are
:19:23. > :19:26.annoyed about. I have just said, the Indigenous people, we do well. We do
:19:27. > :19:31.very well, I'm sure there are some Indigenous people that are in
:19:32. > :19:33.favour, some people are up against. Indigenous people shouldn't be
:19:34. > :19:37.romanticised as this kind of entity where they all agree with each other
:19:38. > :19:40.and all that together. No, you have Indigenous people that vote right
:19:41. > :19:44.wing, Indigenous people that vote left wing... He is popular, but his
:19:45. > :19:47.ratings are going down. From the beginning of January last year to
:19:48. > :19:51.December 2015 he saw a drop in his poll ratings from 60 to 41%. Well,
:19:52. > :19:55.different pollsters would have different results. The last polls I
:19:56. > :20:00.saw he was still about 60%. President Correa has been... That
:20:01. > :20:07.was a whole year. I think what is surprising here is how... Well, next
:20:08. > :20:09.Burbury, so 9.5 years and what is surprising in the story is how
:20:10. > :20:15.consistent his popularity has been over ten years. It might go down
:20:16. > :20:19.now, though, because the economy is really taking a hammering. Oil
:20:20. > :20:22.prices going down, use the US dollar which is quite strong regionally
:20:23. > :20:27.which means your exports are going to be much more expensive and your
:20:28. > :20:30.imports, you know, are easier but your exports, you are going to
:20:31. > :20:35.suffer trying to diversify your economy. I think we have gone
:20:36. > :20:38.through the worst. Oil prices are on the rise and think we handled it
:20:39. > :20:42.very well. This is an important point, I think this collapse of the
:20:43. > :20:46.oil price which happened 15 or 20 years the situation would have been
:20:47. > :20:51.disastrous. Let's not forget that Ecuador, before our government, had
:20:52. > :20:55.seven presidents in ten years. Sure, sure. Famous in the world are being
:20:56. > :20:58.very unstable, massive economic crisis etc. This hasn't happened.
:20:59. > :21:02.What we're seeing is Ecuador dealing quite well with the fall in oil
:21:03. > :21:06.prices. We even grew last year, very marginally. We are used to growing
:21:07. > :21:12.5% year and unfortunately we grew 0.5%, which was unfortunate, but in
:21:13. > :21:14.the past we would have... It would have been chaos, Keech teachers
:21:15. > :21:18.would not have been paid, police officers and the army wouldn't have
:21:19. > :21:21.been paid. This didn't happen. Why? Because we are diversifying our
:21:22. > :21:26.economy, moving away from oil, we are taking the right steps. You
:21:27. > :21:29.still rely on oil for 50% of your exports. Yes, you can't change that
:21:30. > :21:33.overnight. Foreign Minister, the fact is when you look at the region,
:21:34. > :21:36.Progressive governments of the sort you support, are hugely under
:21:37. > :21:43.pressure, especially in Venezuela. Nicolas Maduro took over, look at
:21:44. > :21:45.what is going on. Medicine is in short supply, food shortages,
:21:46. > :21:50.hospitals running out of soap, inflation lusty was 180%. The
:21:51. > :21:54.progressive left are really not being able to deliver economic
:21:55. > :22:00.benefits to the people. The very people who put them into power.
:22:01. > :22:02.Dimension inflation, in the case of Ecuador there is no inflation.
:22:03. > :22:08.Progressive governments are under pressure, aren't they, including
:22:09. > :22:11.yours? There is an effort to present regressive government is a failure,
:22:12. > :22:16.because now there are some electoral changes, some right-wing governments
:22:17. > :22:20.have come into power. Like in Peru. The President. In Peru there is a
:22:21. > :22:23.new president, although I don't know if the previous government was part
:22:24. > :22:27.of the progressive wave but the truth is the last ten or 15 years
:22:28. > :22:31.these regressive governments have been very successful at reducing
:22:32. > :22:36.inequality, reducing poverty, at giving political stability to these
:22:37. > :22:40.governments and because this is Democratic game, and absolutely
:22:41. > :22:44.legitimate democratic game, you have changes. You have new governments,
:22:45. > :22:48.some more right, some more centre, coming into power. In the case of
:22:49. > :22:52.Ecuador, the coming February which is the coming presidential
:22:53. > :22:56.elections, will see a new victory on the progressive front. And those
:22:57. > :22:59.coming presidential elections the Constitution has been changed so
:23:00. > :23:04.that actually there is no limit on presidential terms. Yes, there is,
:23:05. > :23:09.only tee terms. Yes, but after the next elections, so President Correa
:23:10. > :23:14.can't run in the next elections, but after four years he could run again.
:23:15. > :23:19.Yes, just like in Brazil, in Argentina, in Russia... He could,
:23:20. > :23:23.couldn't he, after four years? This is a question you would have two ask
:23:24. > :23:27.Raphael Guerrera, because it is a personal decision. I don't know if
:23:28. > :23:39.he will do that. -- President Correa. You have a French mother and
:23:40. > :23:44.Venezuelan father, can you really identify with support? I was in
:23:45. > :23:49.Ecuador when I was 19, he have lived most of my life in Ecuador. All my
:23:50. > :23:55.life has been... Can you really feel what people experience? I lived in a
:23:56. > :23:58.lot of places in Ecuador. I have been a political militant all my
:23:59. > :24:02.life. I wasn't always in government. I was a long time in opposition,
:24:03. > :24:06.working with a very Indigenous groups you are talking about, so I
:24:07. > :24:09.can empathise and that is why we are involved in this process. Foreign
:24:10. > :24:10.Minister of Ecuador, Guillaume Long, thank you very much indeed for being
:24:11. > :24:15.on HARDtalk. Thank you.