:00:00. > :00:13.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:14. > :00:26.You know things are bad when people are constantly telling you not to
:00:27. > :00:26.Patrick. Panic. After the Brexit vote,
:00:27. > :00:30.a vote, n awful lot of powerful people
:00:31. > :00:34.of the European Union have joined the 'don't panic' chorus.
:00:35. > :00:39.How confident can we be of the UK's future, or indeed the EU's?
:00:40. > :00:59.my guess is Radek Sikorski. -- my guest today is former Polish Foreign
:01:00. > :01:03.Minister, Radek Sikorski. Could British voters have
:01:04. > :01:17.kickstarted the Radek Sikorski, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:18. > :01:23.Hello. You said in the run-up to the Brexit referendum, the entire world
:01:24. > :01:32.will grasp in disbelief if Britain votes to Leave. Are you still
:01:33. > :01:39.grasping. I think that prediction has borne fruit. I am amazed. That
:01:40. > :01:47.quotes are just too may bat perhaps you and other European leaders were
:01:48. > :01:58.a bit complacent. You assumed the British electorate wouldn't do this
:01:59. > :02:01.quiz yellow -- gasping? --? You said in your introduction that this could
:02:02. > :02:08.be the beginning of the unravelling of the EU, and a agree that cannot
:02:09. > :02:16.be excluded. That would be terrible for Britain. And it would be
:02:17. > :02:19.terrible to have a united Europe at written's exclusion, which is
:02:20. > :02:24.something they tried to prevent four 500 years. Not a good place to be
:02:25. > :02:31.in. When you say this could herald the unravelling of the EU, it makes
:02:32. > :02:41.me think, the European Union must have been a very fragile project is
:02:42. > :02:49.be doubled if the departure of one nation State could cause it to
:02:50. > :02:55.collapse? It is not the European Union which has voted to expel
:02:56. > :02:59.Britain, Britain has voted to Leave. The first duty of the politicians of
:03:00. > :03:05.the continent is to save the remaining 27 union members. What
:03:06. > :03:11.sort of message are you sending to the other member states and the
:03:12. > :03:27.wider world about the strength and coherence of Europe when you and
:03:28. > :03:31.Donald -- Donald Tusk say things like the fact that the entire trans-
:03:32. > :03:38.Atlantic committee will become significantly weaker. Is that true?
:03:39. > :03:42.We believe that the European Union was better with Britain in it than
:03:43. > :03:47.what you will get now. But you have made your decision, you have to take
:03:48. > :03:55.care of union and we of hours. We will talk at length about your
:03:56. > :04:01.views, but I am interested in your take off how would you now see the
:04:02. > :04:06.political leadership in Britain -- ours. We believe David Cameron will
:04:07. > :04:09.be in office for another three months, he cannot be the captain of
:04:10. > :04:20.the ship as a rack that is negotiated. But in hours from now,
:04:21. > :04:24.he is going to have to front up to the other members of the EU
:04:25. > :04:28.nationstates. How much anger is there directed towards him quiz
:04:29. > :04:42.yellow I would not like to be David Cameron, because he called an
:04:43. > :04:48.unnecessary referendum -- him? There was unfair criticism in his party of
:04:49. > :04:52.the European Union in including under his leadership. There were
:04:53. > :04:59.decades of misinformation of the British public about how the EU
:05:00. > :05:06.works, and those have borne fruit. When you are describing a politician
:05:07. > :05:12.in those terms, you have to conclude that it was fantastically
:05:13. > :05:17.irresponsible and selfish? Well, is thought he would not to fill the
:05:18. > :05:23.promise of the referendum because I don't think he thought he would win
:05:24. > :05:28.the next general election. This has been a castrated move of historical
:05:29. > :05:34.proportions. Another thing happening in Europe right now is a great deal
:05:35. > :05:45.of vilification aimed at Boris Johnson, if anybody was the leader
:05:46. > :05:52.of the Leave campaign, this was him. The spokesman for Jean-Claude
:05:53. > :06:00.Juncker characterised, alongside Donald Trump and Marine Le Pen, as
:06:01. > :06:04.the horror scenario for the Western world. Is that a helpful thing for
:06:05. > :06:12.the European leaders to be saying right now, given the role that Boris
:06:13. > :06:14.Johnson is almost certain to play? There have been many things said
:06:15. > :06:18.about the European Union in this country. But these are the facts
:06:19. > :06:27.that Britain is having to deal with. It is a British internal problem.
:06:28. > :06:34.How tactful of you. You know these men quite well. You are an
:06:35. > :06:37.experienced European politician and you have followed this campaign very
:06:38. > :06:42.closely because you know British culture very well. I would like
:06:43. > :06:50.characterise how you feel, for example, Boris Johnson handled
:06:51. > :06:56.his... I feel extremely disappointed and with a sense of foreboding about
:06:57. > :07:05.what has happened. They did things that I would like them not to have
:07:06. > :07:13.done, and it is a terrible shame. Irresponsible? Look, this is...
:07:14. > :07:18.Let's talk about the consequences of what has happened. We will, but one
:07:19. > :07:25.final question. You are almost uniquely placed, you are a European
:07:26. > :07:34.politician who knows Boris Johnson extremely well. He is hotly tipped
:07:35. > :07:37.to be Britain 's next Prime Minister. Do you think he is the
:07:38. > :07:42.right man for the job? It is not up to me to make that sort of a
:07:43. > :07:47.judgement. You must have an opinion. Europe will deal fairly with whoever
:07:48. > :07:52.your constitutional system throws up as the next leader, just as we will
:07:53. > :07:58.deal fairly with the decision you have taken. It seems to me that
:07:59. > :08:05.Europe is split, and here is how we get to how Europe will handle the
:08:06. > :08:13.Brexit. Even on the discussion as to when Britain will actively trigger
:08:14. > :08:18.Article 50, there are diverging views. Martin Schultz, the Speaker
:08:19. > :08:28.of the European Parliament, has said it has to be now. He has said it has
:08:29. > :08:34.to be the moment when Britain triggers Article 50. I understand
:08:35. > :08:36.that some politicians in Europe would like this period of
:08:37. > :08:43.uncertainty to be as short as possible. Legally, Britain is in the
:08:44. > :08:48.lead on this. It is up to Britain. I understand not even your government
:08:49. > :08:52.but the Parliament to have to activate Article 50 and the process
:08:53. > :08:58.of leaving the EU. Coming back to this point about anger and to an
:08:59. > :09:06.extent, punishment. The French Foreign Minister said, and he seemed
:09:07. > :09:10.to be making a direct intervention into which is politics, he said a
:09:11. > :09:15.new Prime Minister must be designated within a few days. Some
:09:16. > :09:21.in Europe have said, we are fed up with Britain and they cannot dictate
:09:22. > :09:26.the terms of the Brexit negotiation. Europe will start to dictate to
:09:27. > :09:30.Britain. Do you think that is right? You are asking me to get involved in
:09:31. > :09:35.an emotional discussion, I think that is unhelpful because Britain is
:09:36. > :09:40.an important country that we want to have a friendly relationship with.
:09:41. > :09:49.Let us deal with what has happened as competently and friendly as a
:09:50. > :09:53.divorce can be. You are more of the Angela Merkel School of thought, we
:09:54. > :09:57.have to recognise Britain and we need to give them some time and
:09:58. > :10:00.space to figure it out before we start making too many demands or
:10:01. > :10:06.telling them how things are going to be? We are dealing with very
:10:07. > :10:16.important issues for millions of people. It is unhelpful... Some of
:10:17. > :10:21.the emotions that have played in the referendum I think were misplaced.
:10:22. > :10:27.Let's try to do with facts rather than emotions. Do you think the
:10:28. > :10:32.European Union has a coherent plan for the post- British membership?
:10:33. > :10:35.Europe doesn't need a plan, because we haven't done anything. You have
:10:36. > :10:46.decided to Leave, you must have a plan. With all due respect, surely
:10:47. > :10:50.you must have a plan to avoid the EU unravelling? That is EU business.
:10:51. > :10:55.That is why the EU leaders are already agreeing to meet without
:10:56. > :11:04.Britain. Your commission has already resigned. The shapers before the
:11:05. > :11:13.European Council are meeting already. It is already at less than
:11:14. > :11:19.it was in the European Council. It is, and yet it is also a lame-duck
:11:20. > :11:26.member of the European Union? Politically, you are out, presently,
:11:27. > :11:32.you white still in. But you are presumed to be outside of the club.
:11:33. > :11:35.You were not only a member of the club, you are a member of the
:11:36. > :11:39.committee. You thought the memberships were too high, is what
:11:40. > :11:48.some of the new members were a bit common, and you decided to Leave. As
:11:49. > :11:52.a Polish politician who has long experienced in government and the EU
:11:53. > :11:57.forum, how do you feel about the absence of Britain? Poland on the
:11:58. > :12:05.whole has been a very close ally of Britain on many issues. In my
:12:06. > :12:10.limited way, I was doing whatever I could to persuade people to stay,
:12:11. > :12:16.because you were a crucial voice for transatlantic relations, stabilising
:12:17. > :12:22.the link for Liberal politics and economics. You were a very important
:12:23. > :12:27.place to the balance of power internally in the EU. That will be
:12:28. > :12:33.gone now and it is regrettable. That is why I regret this decision. I
:12:34. > :12:38.want to come back to that and to the areas that you care about like
:12:39. > :12:42.defence and security, but first the economy. There has been a lot of
:12:43. > :12:49.talk about what will happen to the British economy. It seems, as of
:12:50. > :12:53.today, that war is Johnson believes it will be relatively
:12:54. > :12:59.straightforward for written to, in his phrase, negotiate full access to
:13:00. > :13:03.the European single market as part of a Brexit negotiation. Do you
:13:04. > :13:08.think he is right? That is an aspiration, not a plan. In other
:13:09. > :13:12.words, you are saying, I have left the club, I am a member of the
:13:13. > :13:17.public, but I would quite like to use the facilities. The committee
:13:18. > :13:31.will meet and we will consider the offer. It is going to be very hard.
:13:32. > :13:38.The Norway option... That includes freedom of movement of Labour.
:13:39. > :13:42.Talking of Boris Johnson and his fellow Leave campaigners... Let's
:13:43. > :13:49.get real. We voted for racks that, you in the European Union export 100
:13:50. > :13:54.billion euros of produce to the UK. We are so much bigger and more
:13:55. > :13:58.important to you than Norway. Don't quote to us a deal you did with
:13:59. > :14:11.Norway. Be realistic that you want a deal with us -- Brexit. We do, but
:14:12. > :14:17.we can trade under the WTO regime, you can trade under the customs
:14:18. > :14:19.union like Turkey, you can have bilateral agreements like
:14:20. > :14:24.Switzerland, you can be in the economic area. Britain needs to
:14:25. > :14:29.propose what it wants, because it and took the initiative to Leave. --
:14:30. > :14:39.Britain. Boris Johnson says the negative
:14:40. > :14:47.consequences of Brexit have been widely overdone and the upside is
:14:48. > :14:50.being ignored. As the German CBI reminded us, they will continue to
:14:51. > :14:52.have free trade and access to the