:00:11. > :00:21.Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi, in Rome. Migration, the
:00:22. > :00:23.euro, and, of course, Brexit, are testing the European Union as never
:00:24. > :00:26.before. In Italy there's talk of another possible blow for the EU. If
:00:27. > :00:28.voters use a forthcoming referendum on constitutional change as a chance
:00:29. > :00:29.to register a protest vote against the country's centre-left
:00:30. > :00:31.government, anti-Euro populist parties may be able to capitalise.
:00:32. > :00:43.Are Italians becoming disillusioned with the EU project? My guest is
:00:44. > :00:53.Italy's Foreign Minister, Paolo Gentiloni.
:00:54. > :01:09.THEME SONG PLAYS. Paolo Gentiloni, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.
:01:10. > :01:18.Could Italy deliver the next big blow for the European Union? For
:01:19. > :01:22.sure. Really? Definitely. You might lose the referendum in October.
:01:23. > :01:31.Opinion polls say it is neck and neck. We are confident we will win
:01:32. > :01:34.the referendum. It isn't about the EU or the government, it is a
:01:35. > :01:41.referendum about constitutional reforms. Editable it complicated to
:01:42. > :01:45.explain to a non- Italian. --A little bit. It tries to shift power
:01:46. > :01:55.away from the Senate towards the Lower House. And to lower the amount
:01:56. > :02:04.of members of Parliament. And to bring more stability to Italy. You
:02:05. > :02:09.have had a revolving door programme for migration. That may be the case.
:02:10. > :02:16.But the fact of the matter is Italy is in a bad state. Look at the
:02:17. > :02:23.economy. A large number of your banks are failing to capitalise at
:02:24. > :02:28.all. They are in a bad position, 30% of them. You have bad unemployment.
:02:29. > :02:36.1% GDP growth and colossal public debt. You know, voters are angry.
:02:37. > :02:39.They could see it as a protest vote to give your government. Nobody
:02:40. > :02:52.knows. Well, you know, you have to consider
:02:53. > :02:55.this kind of situation on the basis of what was
:02:56. > :02:58.the situation in the last five, Because yes, you are right,
:02:59. > :03:02.Italy's growth rate is not so high but we didn't have growth for three
:03:03. > :03:04.or four years. Now, since a couple of years,
:03:05. > :03:09.it is again going up. We are having a lot of reforms,
:03:10. > :03:11.including the labour market. This is, I think, giving our
:03:12. > :03:23.economy more confidence. But the fact of the matter is,
:03:24. > :03:26.the Prime Minister, Matteo Renzi, has said that if he loses
:03:27. > :03:29.the referendum he will resign and the whole government
:03:30. > :03:31.will go down with him. You don't know, that's
:03:32. > :03:34.what David Cameron thought Why would he take such a high
:03:35. > :03:38.risk strategy though, seeing as it has backfired
:03:39. > :03:40.for David Cameron in the UK with Brexit, saying "if I lose
:03:41. > :03:43.the referendum I'm off", I think it is a kind of message
:03:44. > :03:47.to mobilise our people, but we are absolutely
:03:48. > :03:49.confident that we will win because the constitutional change
:03:50. > :03:51.the parliament decided, we have waited in our country
:03:52. > :03:54.since decades so we have now the opportunity
:03:55. > :04:07.to put them in practice. All right, but I have to say to you,
:04:08. > :04:11.that's what you hope but it Marco Protopapa, an economist
:04:12. > :04:14.at JP Morgan in London, says a negative outcome in Italy
:04:15. > :04:17.would herald a new phase of extremely high political
:04:18. > :04:19.uncertainty with a notable absence of major centrist leaders
:04:20. > :04:22.and a rising risk of populist That is how the Italy domino
:04:23. > :04:25.could actually be triggered because we know the populist party,
:04:26. > :04:27.the Five Star Movement, is ahead of the Democratic Party
:04:28. > :04:31.in the polls and they are calling We risk it before because of
:04:32. > :05:02.a British referendum, not You are quoting,
:05:03. > :05:05.mentioning our surveys. Yes, we have surveys every week
:05:06. > :05:08.and I think that in the last three years, one week, one single week,
:05:09. > :05:11.the one you are mentioning, so the Five Star Movement
:05:12. > :05:21.0.4 points... I mean, Democratic Party 29.8,
:05:22. > :05:24.and the Five Star Movement 30.64 opinion polls, quite different
:05:25. > :05:27.from the start of the year. And one week in the last three
:05:28. > :05:29.years. Listen, they won 19 of the 20
:05:30. > :05:32.mayoral elections in Italy, including the mayor
:05:33. > :05:34.of Rome and Turin. And we won 72, so it
:05:35. > :05:36.is 72 against 90. If someone had worried
:05:37. > :05:38.about the future of the European economy and European stability,
:05:39. > :05:41.he is perfectly right. But the reason to be worried is that
:05:42. > :05:44.unfortunately we had a referendum in the UK and the Remain position
:05:45. > :05:47.lost the referendum. We hope to be part of the solution,
:05:48. > :05:52.and it will not be easy, The EU commission president,
:05:53. > :06:10.Jean-Claude Juncker, said of the Brexit vote,
:06:11. > :06:13."We must stop the vote which took place in Britain as a vote that
:06:14. > :06:16.should be shaping policy in Europe." It sounds like you are
:06:17. > :06:18.disagreeing with him, you think it has had an impact,
:06:19. > :06:21.it is causing people to be So he's
:06:22. > :06:41.wrong? Maybe he said this so bluntly
:06:42. > :06:45.I don't agree with him because UK is one of the three main
:06:46. > :06:47.European countries. How can we believe the fact
:06:48. > :06:50.the majority of the UK citizens decided after a very,
:06:51. > :06:52.very long period, decades of participation to the EU,
:06:53. > :06:55.if the majority to decide to leave, can you imagine that we,
:06:56. > :06:58.the other 27 member states, It is obvious that it is something
:06:59. > :07:01.very, very serious for Europe OK, well given that your position
:07:02. > :07:29.is different from Mr Juncker's there, you know there has been quite
:07:30. > :07:32.a bit of criticism about him, unattributed sources,
:07:33. > :07:34.or even some people speaking openly, like the Czech Foreign Minister,
:07:35. > :07:37.saying he is not suitable for the job, what is Italy's
:07:38. > :07:39.position on Mr Juncker? We contributed to his election
:07:40. > :07:50.because there was an agreement between the conservatives
:07:51. > :07:51.and the socialist I think that President Juncker tried
:07:52. > :07:55.to give to the EU commission a role in this complicated
:07:56. > :07:57.situation, but the fact is that the European Commission
:07:58. > :07:59.is still something different It has not the legitimacy
:08:00. > :08:03.to represent the European citizens, so we have to go forward
:08:04. > :08:16.in this process. So when the Prime Minister,
:08:17. > :08:19.Matteo Renzi, here said that people don't like being lectured
:08:20. > :08:21.by a schoolteacher in Brussels - they were his exact words -
:08:22. > :08:26.do you think he might have been talking about
:08:27. > :08:28.Jean-Claude Juncker? All right, so after Brexit,
:08:29. > :08:42.the debate, you said, is a wake-up call in a way,
:08:43. > :08:45.isn't it, for Europe. So the question is, how
:08:46. > :08:47.does Europe respond? Does it say the major Eurosceptic
:08:48. > :08:50.nation is now voting to leave the EU, we can either go
:08:51. > :08:53.down more integration, more federalism, or you could say,
:08:54. > :08:55.well, we have seen the degree of Euroscepticism in the UK,
:08:56. > :08:59.we have to heed that and make sure we understand people's concerns
:09:00. > :09:16.about to watch Europe? Well, my opinion is that the real
:09:17. > :09:21.issue of the debate was not so much, even in the UK as far
:09:22. > :09:24.as I understand, was not so much if we have too much or not too much
:09:25. > :09:36.Europe. It was about two or three main
:09:37. > :09:40.issues that are now worrying First of all migration,
:09:41. > :09:43.and number two the economic crisis, jobs, and many in our public
:09:44. > :09:46.opinions, and it is clear in the UK also, are blaming Europe, Brussels,
:09:47. > :09:49.for these kind of problems. No, but it is how you respond to it
:09:50. > :10:09.now that I'm asking you, Foreign Minister, because as I said
:10:10. > :10:12.there's two stark options in Italy. The finance minister,
:10:13. > :10:13.Carlo Padoan, has talked about having a common budget,
:10:14. > :10:16.Treasury, for eurozone members. And even an unemployment
:10:17. > :10:17.insurance scheme. Now that sounds quite
:10:18. > :10:28.integrationalist if you ask me. Yes, but I don't think that this
:10:29. > :10:31.is the moment to launch a big debate on the architecture
:10:32. > :10:33.of the European Union. I think that our citizens,
:10:34. > :10:36.if after such a serious event as the British referendum,
:10:37. > :10:38.we would react with the debate on European architecture
:10:39. > :10:40.for more integration, less integration, they will consider
:10:41. > :10:42.us a little bit mad. What they are asking the Europe
:10:43. > :11:05.and to the 27 European governments is to solve or at least to give
:11:06. > :11:08.a contribution to solve the two The 27 EU countries -
:11:09. > :11:16.have you already taken If the UK want to change this
:11:17. > :11:22.decision, I will take Do you think Brexit
:11:23. > :11:35.is definitely going to happen? For sure it is not up to the Italian
:11:36. > :11:38.Foreign Minister to decide. What I can say that in the last 20
:11:39. > :11:42.years we saw decisions, referendums, in Europe changed by other
:11:43. > :11:44.referendums or even by decisions Denmark for instance,
:11:45. > :11:55.the Maastricht Treaty they voted against and then another referendum
:11:56. > :12:02.they accepted in the '90s, yes. But this is obviously to UK citizens
:12:03. > :12:12.and government to decide, not us. But do you think
:12:13. > :12:14.it is a possibility? I am saying 27 because they decided
:12:15. > :12:17.to leave, not because I decided. The timing, there are those who say
:12:18. > :12:22.Article 50, you know, that's when you start the break-up
:12:23. > :12:25.and not before, is still a fully paid-up member
:12:26. > :12:31.of the EU. It is, it is, but at the same
:12:32. > :12:34.time I think reasonable what the Foreign Secretary Philip
:12:35. > :12:37.Hammond, told me the day after the referendum,
:12:38. > :12:39.he told me, look, Paolo, we have to wait for the new leader,
:12:40. > :12:42.the new Prime Minister, and he has to take
:12:43. > :12:54.this decision. He or she has to take the decision,
:12:55. > :12:59.correct, but this cannot The Latins use the word
:13:00. > :13:02.ad libitum - forever. The situation for 27 countries
:13:03. > :13:16.and 450 million people. So, you agree with the Belgian Prime
:13:17. > :13:19.Minister, Charles Michel, when he told the Times newspaper,
:13:20. > :13:21.you can't say "I want a divorce but I will live
:13:22. > :13:24.with you for a little I think this is up to the UK
:13:25. > :13:33.to decide but the time is when the new UK leadership
:13:34. > :13:36.will be in place, at this moment I think we have
:13:37. > :13:38.to begin the process. I repeat, if the decision to leave
:13:39. > :13:41.is not a decision taken, but this is for the UK people
:13:42. > :14:01.and government not for me. Just to finish off on whether this
:14:02. > :14:03.integration is federalism, and you said it's not really
:14:04. > :14:06.the right time to have this debate, Donald Tusk, the European Council
:14:07. > :14:10.president, himself a Pole, because they are more
:14:11. > :14:12.on the Eurosceptic side, and by the way you know the east
:14:13. > :14:15.and central European countries have said that they don't want to be kind
:14:16. > :14:19.of stitched up by the big three - Italy, France and Germany -
:14:20. > :14:22.deciding what's going to happen. He has said, "Increasingly louder
:14:23. > :14:24.are those who question the very principle of a united Europe
:14:25. > :14:27.and a vision of a federation doesn't seem to me to be
:14:28. > :14:34.the best answer to it." You cannot press on with grand
:14:35. > :14:40.schemes any more in Europe, can you? I think the grand scheme for us now
:14:41. > :14:43.is three words. Migration, jobs and
:14:44. > :14:45.economy, security. This is where EU will show
:14:46. > :14:49.its resilience and its future. If you ask me about structure
:14:50. > :14:52.of Europe, I will answer that it is not now that
:14:53. > :14:54.we will discuss this. When we will discuss this,
:14:55. > :14:57.our position is yes, we need more integration,
:14:58. > :14:59.but not because it More integration at 27,
:15:00. > :15:23.or 28 if UK comes back, level. Just to get that, so it could also
:15:24. > :15:33.leave but come back With your vast experience, you think
:15:34. > :15:51.that is also a possibility? OK, so you said migration,
:15:52. > :15:55.jobs and security, the EU has got First of all, let's look at EU
:15:56. > :16:00.migration, within the EU, and as we know, that was one
:16:01. > :16:03.of the key issues, people coming from other parts
:16:04. > :16:06.of the European Union enter the UK. This is one of the main pillars
:16:07. > :16:09.of the European Union, but it is now actually,
:16:10. > :16:24.post-Brexit, being questioned. Even Manuel Valls,
:16:25. > :16:26.the French Prime Minister, has said of this that he is threatening to no
:16:27. > :16:29.longer apply EU laws on workers because EU migrants
:16:30. > :16:31.are undercutting French standards. EU migration and jobs for people
:16:32. > :16:35.in their own country, was always a problem in the last 20
:16:36. > :16:50.years. I personally remember,
:16:51. > :16:52.I am not a young guy, the threat of Polish workers
:16:53. > :16:55.when there was the enlargement Everybody in Italy but also
:16:56. > :16:58.in France and other countries was saying, "oh,
:16:59. > :17:01.now we will have an invasion Then we had the same phenomenon
:17:02. > :17:14.in Italy about Romania. "Oh, the Romanians
:17:15. > :17:15.are arriving," etc etc. I think we should be realistic
:17:16. > :17:18.and say that after 60 years, we have an extraordinary achievement
:17:19. > :17:21.of the fact that within Europe, so huge area and the richest area
:17:22. > :17:25.of the world, there is the free It has disadvantages,
:17:26. > :17:31.but it is the basis also You cannot have the common unique
:17:32. > :17:35.market having all the privileges and the advantages of a single
:17:36. > :17:38.market and not having So, you agree then with
:17:39. > :17:50.Angela Merkel when she is saying in the context of the UK Brexit
:17:51. > :17:54.again that it is not exercise on the single
:17:55. > :18:13.market, to use her words? You say yes, we will accept
:18:14. > :18:16.the trade but not the free movement With the same issue
:18:17. > :18:20.we are discussing since one year One of the most relevant economic
:18:21. > :18:23.partners of EU. Not a member, they had a referendum
:18:24. > :18:28.against the circulation of persons and this referendum
:18:29. > :18:30.created huge problems That's the one they had in 2014
:18:31. > :18:35.and it is still a matter of dispute. You said we have got
:18:36. > :18:51.to answer voters' needs, jobs, and also on migration,
:18:52. > :18:53.and still just sticking with the intra-EU migration,
:18:54. > :18:55.that will be a difficult Because, as I've just said,
:18:56. > :18:59.the French are worried, I think that we are very happy
:19:00. > :19:03.in general with the internal freedom We are happy of having many,
:19:04. > :19:07.many UK and France citizens It is something that
:19:08. > :19:14.makes our societies more rich. London is one of the most admired
:19:15. > :19:16.cities in the world, also because it has 500,000
:19:17. > :19:18.Italians. It is something that in all
:19:19. > :19:32.the world that we envy the UK. So, that is on the intra-EU
:19:33. > :19:34.migration, but another big issue in the EU,
:19:35. > :19:37.both for governments and voters, is migration from outside
:19:38. > :19:41.the European Union. Yes, and again the EU has failed
:19:42. > :19:50.woefully to do anything about this. We had the Germans in particular
:19:51. > :19:53.pushing for the mandatory refugee policy, the law was passed
:19:54. > :19:55.in September last year. We've only had a few thousand
:19:56. > :19:59.distributed on the basis You've got eastern and central
:20:00. > :20:02.European countries putting up their borders to other EU
:20:03. > :20:04.countries, dealing a blow to Schengen, so clearly the EU
:20:05. > :20:07.is really not addressing, You are right, you are right,
:20:08. > :20:30.and I think that we Italians are the one that are most affected
:20:31. > :20:33.by this problem directly because other European
:20:34. > :20:38.countries, especially on the so-called Balkan
:20:39. > :20:41.route - Turkey, Greece, Macedonia, Serbia and so
:20:42. > :20:50.on towards Germany and Austria -
:20:51. > :20:52.were affected by this flow of migration beginning from July,
:20:53. > :21:06.August last year. But we have very significant
:21:07. > :21:08.migration flows coming from Africa Your finance minister, Carlo Padoan,
:21:09. > :21:24.has warned of a threat of a possible breakdown of Europe's borderless
:21:25. > :21:25.Schengen region, and he says, "If Schengen fails,
:21:26. > :21:28.this is going to be more destructive But that is correct
:21:29. > :21:34.because the issue that is most destabilising Europe
:21:35. > :21:35.is exactly migration. The issue of external
:21:36. > :21:43.migration, not intra-EU migration, A big flow of non-EU
:21:44. > :22:05.migrants arriving in UK, it was an extraordinary issue
:22:06. > :22:08.in itself, the idea of the world So, you are right that Brussels,
:22:09. > :22:22.the EU, the member states were not able in these years to tackle
:22:23. > :22:25.the migration phenomenon correctly. I think we have to accelerate
:22:26. > :22:28.because the situation is now under control in the Aegean Sea,
:22:29. > :22:32.apparently, but we are not sure how long it will last, and we know
:22:33. > :22:34.that the differences between Africa and Europe will remain there for 20
:22:35. > :22:52.years, not for two months. You said also that one
:22:53. > :22:54.of the key things you want We talked about migration,
:22:55. > :22:57.jobs and security. I mean, Italy has for instance
:22:58. > :23:05.talked about a UN peacekeeping force for Libya to stop people coming
:23:06. > :23:08.and obviously the terror threat But post the Chilcot inquiry report
:23:09. > :23:13.that we have had in the UK, there's going to be no real
:23:14. > :23:16.appetite in the west, is there, for that kind
:23:17. > :23:18.of intervention to go The mistake we should not repeat,
:23:19. > :23:35.and we did it not only in Iraq but also Libya, is to go
:23:36. > :23:38.there without any Libyan ownership and to leave after having bombed
:23:39. > :23:41.in some way Libya after What we can do is, if stabilisation
:23:42. > :23:45.of Libya is going on, and if the Libyan government
:23:46. > :23:48.is asking for support for training, But you can help them,
:23:49. > :23:57.you cannot go there, bombing a country, and then
:23:58. > :24:15.going back home. This was a mistake that you cannot
:24:16. > :24:18.repeat and we will not repeat. Paolo Gentiloni, thank you very much
:24:19. > :24:43.indeed for coming on HARDtalk. The general trends for the week
:24:44. > :24:47.ahead of weather are clear.