:00:00. > :00:16.It's shrinking by 8% per year, faster than any other
:00:17. > :00:21.Inflation is at nearly 500% and most people say they can no longer
:00:22. > :00:29.The opposition say President Maduro must go.
:00:30. > :00:32.My guest on HARDtalk, Maria Corina Machado,
:00:33. > :00:35.has led street protests and is calling on all Venezuelans,
:00:36. > :00:41.including the military, to force limb to resign.
:00:42. > :00:43.including the military, to force him to resign.
:00:44. > :00:45.President Maduro accuses her and the opposition
:00:46. > :01:12.Maria Corina Machado, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:13. > :01:18.Thank you very much, Sarah. It's a pleasure.
:01:19. > :01:21.Can you start by giving us a sense of what life
:01:22. > :01:23.is like in Venezuela for ordinary people?
:01:24. > :01:29.We Venezuelans, as you know, are sitting on top of the largest
:01:30. > :01:34.oil reserves in the world, but on the ground Venezuelan
:01:35. > :01:39.people are starving, are dying of hunger,
:01:40. > :01:43.of lack of medication and of violent crime.
:01:44. > :01:48.Actually every mother, housewife, has to spend long hours
:01:49. > :01:52.in queues in front of supermarkets just to bring food back
:01:53. > :01:59.Many times they arrive with their hands empty
:02:00. > :02:04.because there is nothing to buy, or when they find something,
:02:05. > :02:07.they cannot pay, because today in order to feed your family
:02:08. > :02:09.you need at least 16 times theofficial minimum
:02:10. > :02:17.You make the point though that Venezuela
:02:18. > :02:25.It has 95% of its export revenues coming from oil,
:02:26. > :02:30.This is a problem as a result of the oil price not
:02:31. > :02:39.No, not at all, Sarah, because it started long before.
:02:40. > :02:45.Actually, before President Chavez came to power 17 years ago,
:02:46. > :02:50.Venezuela produced more than 70% of our food needs.
:02:51. > :02:55.Today, because of the way the regime has suffocated the economy
:02:56. > :03:01.through expropriation, invasions, control of the economy,
:03:02. > :03:09.we import over 80% of what we require to feed our population.
:03:10. > :03:15.In fact, the oil production has dropped in the last years
:03:16. > :03:20.and even though the price of oil has risen from $7 a barrel
:03:21. > :03:24.when Chavez arrived to over $150 during this period,
:03:25. > :03:28.almost five times today, the fact is that there are no
:03:29. > :03:35.reserves today in order to import food, medicines and other
:03:36. > :03:42.supplies that are needed for a society to survive.
:03:43. > :03:56.They, in the windfall oil period, robbed the resources,
:03:57. > :04:00.and now the result is a society, a country, that is almost ruined.
:04:01. > :04:04.But you are talking about a country that's in crisis.
:04:05. > :04:11.And there'll be many who will say that what you are proposing,
:04:12. > :04:14.to get rid of the President, is only going to make things worse,
:04:15. > :04:17.that there are other things that you could do to help
:04:18. > :04:23.Well, you will know that even if an election of a President
:04:24. > :04:31.is fair, which it wasn't in Venezuela, democratic status goes
:04:32. > :04:42.It has to do with the way Government behaves.
:04:43. > :04:44.Venezuela has turned into a dictatorship.
:04:45. > :04:46.There is no independence of power whatsoever.
:04:47. > :04:48.The judiciary system is totally on the side and on the
:04:49. > :04:52.There hasn't been one single ruling of the Supreme Court
:04:53. > :05:02.It is against the interests of the regime.
:05:03. > :05:08.As I was saying, the independent media is persecuted.
:05:09. > :05:11.Over 20 newspapers have been closed in the last three years.
:05:12. > :05:13.Over 2,000 aggressions just this year against journalists
:05:14. > :05:24.Every day that passes by, people die.
:05:25. > :05:26.Newborn kids die in hospitals because there is no
:05:27. > :05:33.Our children are growing without milk, without vaccines
:05:34. > :05:40.But you are laying all of these problems at the door
:05:41. > :05:43.of the President, Nicolas Maduro, and you have tried various things.
:05:44. > :05:46.You tried to shorten his term from six to four years,
:05:47. > :05:52.The understandable reason, that you can't change
:05:53. > :05:57.And now there is an attempt at a recall referendum
:05:58. > :06:00.and that is running into difficulties.
:06:01. > :06:03.Absolutely, because that's the nature of the regime.
:06:04. > :06:07.A dictatorship, but one that has tied relations with
:06:08. > :06:15.organised crime, corruption networks and the military.
:06:16. > :06:20.Maduro has decided that he is willing to do anything as long
:06:21. > :06:23.as he can stay in power, because there are huge
:06:24. > :06:26.interests amongst these networks of corruption.
:06:27. > :06:37.As I say, drug trafficking, arms trafficking, illegal
:06:38. > :06:40.exploitation of minerals have taken place in Venezuela.
:06:41. > :06:43.Venezuela today is the principal path where it goes.
:06:44. > :06:45.The point here, as you were saying, is we have insisted
:06:46. > :06:47.on a constitutional, an institutional path
:06:48. > :06:49.in order to have a change of Government in Venezuela,
:06:50. > :06:52.which is today the first step in order to stop suffering, pain,
:06:53. > :07:06.We went to the parliamentary elections.
:07:07. > :07:11.We overcame huge, obscene obstacles and it was a landslide.
:07:12. > :07:14.The Venezuelan people said they wanted a change,
:07:15. > :07:19.But Maduro decided to block these ways.
:07:20. > :07:32.Now, he has said to you, and in fact there was a visit
:07:33. > :07:35.from the US Under-Secretary of State in June, and he said,
:07:36. > :07:38.I think it's very good we are taking these steps with the US.
:07:39. > :07:41."I only wish the Venezuela opposition would engage in serious,
:07:42. > :07:42.transparent dialogue in the same way."
:07:43. > :07:46.Well, he does, in the morning, and at the same time
:07:47. > :07:48.the paramilitary groups, the armed forces and the police goes
:07:49. > :07:51.against not only women and housewives who are in queues
:07:52. > :08:01.And when they protest, they fire against them.
:08:02. > :08:03.We have students that have been detained in the last days.
:08:04. > :08:06.We have over 100 political prisoners.
:08:07. > :08:10.And everybody who dares to speak out, any of your colleagues who tell
:08:11. > :08:16.the truth and say how people are being killed in the mining
:08:17. > :08:18.fields, they are killed, just as a journalist Lucia Suarez
:08:19. > :08:26.So will you refuse to go into talks with the President?
:08:27. > :08:35.For years we have been asking for dialogue, true dialogue,
:08:36. > :08:40.because we know very well what the regime has done
:08:41. > :08:43.in the past when they feel that the international pressure
:08:44. > :08:45.and the popular pressure for regime change is important.
:08:46. > :08:49.They sit down and then they violate every single term that
:08:50. > :08:58.So what we are saying now, we need guarantees...
:08:59. > :09:03.So if we said to you and other opposition leaders, let's sit down,
:09:04. > :09:05.let's have a dialogue, let's talk about this,
:09:06. > :09:13.Yes, but there have to be guarantees.
:09:14. > :09:15.Just as the Secretary-General of the Organization
:09:16. > :09:22.He was part of the mission of the South American organisation
:09:23. > :09:27.union that came two years ago on a dialogue mission.
:09:28. > :09:33.Today he says, he realises it was all a lie.
:09:34. > :09:40.It wasn't true that the Government was willing to make reforms
:09:41. > :09:49.That's why Mr Maduro, Secretary-General of the OAS,
:09:50. > :09:56.has presented an impressive report and has opened a file
:09:57. > :10:02.Not only regarding institutional, democratic institutions
:10:03. > :10:05.and violations of human rights, and the opposition of the Government
:10:06. > :10:16.that is denying any true process of transition.
:10:17. > :10:24.You have asked for the largest movement that has ever existed.
:10:25. > :10:26.What are you wanting, people to come out on the streets?
:10:27. > :10:29.We want people expressing their desire for dignity,
:10:30. > :10:33.What does that mean, do you want them on the streets?
:10:34. > :10:42.We do want people power to express peacefully in order to make
:10:43. > :10:45.the Government realise that it is time to sit down for a real
:10:46. > :10:58.I want to know very specifically what it is you mean.
:10:59. > :11:07.Just what happened a few days ago, 5th July,
:11:08. > :11:16.Women knew that on the other side of Colombia there
:11:17. > :11:21.was food for their kids, but Maduro had closed the border
:11:22. > :11:25.So they went to the blockade of the National Guard
:11:26. > :11:28.and they started saying, we want to cross, we want food,
:11:29. > :11:31.we want to bring food and milk to our homes.
:11:32. > :11:36.And you would open those borders completely, would you?
:11:37. > :11:41.If I supported this kind of movement and expression, yes.
:11:42. > :11:45.And they are peaceful and it is our right to speak
:11:46. > :11:53.I want journalists to come out together with our fishermen,
:11:54. > :11:57.with the moms, with the students, with union leaders that today have
:11:58. > :12:03.been persecuted and denied our right to move ahead peacefully.
:12:04. > :12:06.You were mentioning the recalled referendum.
:12:07. > :12:09.It is an institutional path in our constitution
:12:10. > :12:12.that is an effective way to solve a political crisis that
:12:13. > :12:21.It is the democratic way that we channel.
:12:22. > :12:25.But you have said the military citizens have the constitutional
:12:26. > :12:28.duty of respecting and accompanying this fight.
:12:29. > :12:31.Now that sounds like a call for a military coup.
:12:32. > :12:36.No, what I'm calling is for the military citizens
:12:37. > :12:41.to respect the constitution and to not accept orders that mean
:12:42. > :12:48.repression against people that are peacefully in the streets,
:12:49. > :12:51.against young women that are with their babies in their hands
:12:52. > :13:00.In the last days over 500 Venezuelan citizens have been detained.
:13:01. > :13:05.Many are badly hurt, because they were on the
:13:06. > :13:13.So it is a military coup? Absolutely not.
:13:14. > :13:20.You're asking soldiers not to do what their Government...
:13:21. > :13:27.No, not to accept illegal orders that means repression
:13:28. > :13:46.debut at say these are not a legal orders. They could say they are not
:13:47. > :13:49.repressing the people. They should not repress people hungry in the
:13:50. > :13:51.streets demanding for their rights to be preserved.
:13:52. > :13:53.A military coup, Sarah, just took place some
:13:54. > :13:55.hours ago in Venezuela, when President Nicolas Maduro
:13:56. > :13:58.decided to name the actual Minister of Defence.
:13:59. > :14:05.An active military in charge of the whole food system.
:14:06. > :14:09.He decided that the whole Cabinet from now on should report
:14:10. > :14:15.to an active general, to a military, the Minister of Defence.
:14:16. > :14:20.This has no precedent in Venezuelan history.
:14:21. > :14:27.What it shows is that actually Maduro today is responding
:14:28. > :14:33.to the highest rank military members.
:14:34. > :14:36.So I'm still not clear what you are asking the senior
:14:37. > :14:38.military figures, or even junior military figures to do,
:14:39. > :14:49.What I'm saying is we all citizens, civil and military, not
:14:50. > :14:53.only have the right, I believe we have the duty at this
:14:54. > :14:58.time, when the Venezuelan constitution is violated every day.
:14:59. > :15:01.When there are systemic violations to human rights, there's torture,
:15:02. > :15:06.there's persecution, when children are dying every day
:15:07. > :15:10.that passes by because there is no food, no medicines.
:15:11. > :15:16.When Nicolas Maduro blocks humanitarian aid, that even
:15:17. > :15:19.the Catholic Church has offered tonnes of food and medicines
:15:20. > :15:25.and Nicolas Maduro is denying this much-needed aid to arrive.
:15:26. > :15:28.When all these things are happening, the time has come for
:15:29. > :15:33.Tell us how it is going to happen, this overthrow of the President.
:15:34. > :15:37.You want the President to be removed from office.
:15:38. > :15:39.You say you want it democratically, but you are proposing what,
:15:40. > :15:44.that the military turn to him and say it's time to go?
:15:45. > :15:47.What we are demanding, what is our right, is to move ahead
:15:48. > :15:50.with the recalled referendum, which as I mentioned
:15:51. > :15:54.is an institutional, effective means in order
:15:55. > :15:59.to solve these, to solve this dramatic crisis.
:16:00. > :16:04.We have complied with every single requirement, which are high,
:16:05. > :16:07.in order to move along and have the referendum take
:16:08. > :16:09.place this year, Sarah, because it's important to know that
:16:10. > :16:13.if they delay the referendum up to 2017, it is stated in our
:16:14. > :16:15.constitution that the designated Vice-President stays until the end
:16:16. > :16:23.of the term, which will not mean a change in Government.
:16:24. > :16:27.They will probably get rid of Maduro, but the regime
:16:28. > :16:32.and the corruption would stay in place.
:16:33. > :16:36.So what we are saying is we have the right
:16:37. > :16:39.for the recalled referendum to take place this year.
:16:40. > :16:41.It is an imperative, a moral urgency...
:16:42. > :16:45.But you will know that the petition you arranged to collect signatures,
:16:46. > :16:48.the Government says that many of them are fraudulent.
:16:49. > :16:51.The Elections Council rejected 600,000 of them because they said
:16:52. > :16:57.that 11,000 of the names on that were dead.
:16:58. > :17:00.Look, we required 200,000 and we submitted over 1 million,
:17:01. > :17:15.Thousands of public and employees have been fired because they signed.
:17:16. > :17:17.Many journalists have been fired because they signed
:17:18. > :17:21.It is the regime of terror, of intimidation, that's in place.
:17:22. > :17:26.Will the referendum happen this year?
:17:27. > :17:29.It is obvious the regime is willing to do anything to block it,
:17:30. > :17:35.anything, because they are willing to do anything to stay in power.
:17:36. > :17:40.And that's when defiance to oppression takes place.
:17:41. > :17:44.We need to let Maduro know, and the international community,
:17:45. > :17:54.Sarah, that this is about Venezuelan lives, about Venezuelan dignity,
:17:55. > :17:56.about our freedom, our right to live in democracy.
:17:57. > :17:58.We've suffered huge costs to defend these rights.
:17:59. > :18:05.It is today a matter of life or death.
:18:06. > :18:14.You know that the Government has said that you tried a coup before,
:18:15. > :18:17.you've been here before, you tried a coup of
:18:18. > :18:24.They've accused you of plotting to kill President Maduro,
:18:25. > :18:27.and say they have the evidence from e-mails and phone intercepts,
:18:28. > :18:31.and there is still an investigation pending on that.
:18:32. > :18:34.Well actually, I've been accused not of only one crime but of several.
:18:35. > :18:37.I've been banned from leaving in my country for over two years,
:18:38. > :18:40.because I went to the Organization of American States to speak out
:18:41. > :18:43.about the violations of human rights from Venezuela.
:18:44. > :18:46.My children have been threatened to death.
:18:47. > :18:54.I have the political police behind me every time I put a step
:18:55. > :19:01.This is the way the regime wants to silence the voices of those
:19:02. > :19:04.who defend the truth and the right to live in democracy and peace.
:19:05. > :19:09.And today there is this growing movement of women, I have to say
:19:10. > :19:14.mothers, throughout Venezuela, who are overcoming fear,
:19:15. > :19:19.because they are thinking of the lives of their children
:19:20. > :19:23.and the future that we will leave them in a country of
:19:24. > :19:25.opportunities, of respect and freedom and democracy.
:19:26. > :19:30.That's what's at stake in Venezuela now.
:19:31. > :19:33.And those who say you are an American stooge, you are getting
:19:34. > :19:35.financing from the Americans, they are giving you help,
:19:36. > :19:43.Well, they say the same to every single journalist that comes down
:19:44. > :19:49.They've said the same to the Venezuelan Catholic Church
:19:50. > :19:56.They say that as a way to intimidate you, to silence you.
:19:57. > :20:06.Today we realise that this struggle we are moving ahead has to do
:20:07. > :20:15.And finally, after 17 years, the world has opened its eyes.
:20:16. > :20:19.It realises that there is no democracy in Venezuela.
:20:20. > :20:22.It is not only a dictatorship, but one that has links
:20:23. > :20:26.to the international crime, that has given Venezuela a safe
:20:27. > :20:32.haven for the guerrilla and the drug trafficking groups.
:20:33. > :20:36.Let me ask you, because on that American charge, have you ever taken
:20:37. > :20:41.money from the Americans, any financial support from them?
:20:42. > :20:45.It is illegal to receive money from other countries,
:20:46. > :20:50.and we of course have never and will never break the law.
:20:51. > :20:53.International co-operation from NGOs to NGOs is something
:20:54. > :20:58.that is legal and that this Government has been blocking,
:20:59. > :21:02.but we respect the law, even though we face a dictatorship
:21:03. > :21:08.Have you had American support and help or any backing,
:21:09. > :21:12.even if it's not financial, with your campaigns
:21:13. > :21:19.Yes, there have been activists, human rights activists.
:21:20. > :21:22.There are members of the Congress that are speaking out.
:21:23. > :21:26.There are journalists that have come down here to find out what's
:21:27. > :21:30.going on in Venezuela, and the actual threat that this
:21:31. > :21:33.is not only for the lives of our kids and our nation
:21:34. > :21:36.but the whole stability of the region.
:21:37. > :21:40.Once you have a state that is turning to a "narco-state",
:21:41. > :21:44.that is moving into a Mafia state, those people from America
:21:45. > :21:47.and throughout the world that are there to speak out
:21:48. > :21:52.and to understand how serious is Venezuelan regime not only
:21:53. > :21:59.to ourselves but the whole democratic international community.
:22:00. > :22:02.The opposition leader, Leopoldo Lopez, was sentenced to 14
:22:03. > :22:06.years for subliminally inciting violence.
:22:07. > :22:08.Given all that you're saying about being followed
:22:09. > :22:10.and your children having threats made against them, do you fear that
:22:11. > :22:18.Anything could happen to us, Sarah, at this point.
:22:19. > :22:24.I'm threatened almost every single day, but I have trust.
:22:25. > :22:32.I trust the will of the Venezuelans, of our generations that
:22:33. > :22:37.understand the huge responsibility that we have.
:22:38. > :22:40.At this moment in which Venezuela can move along through a transition
:22:41. > :22:46.to democracy and peace, to stop hunger, to stop death.
:22:47. > :22:52.If you get what you want and President Maduro
:22:53. > :22:54.is removed from office, will you stand to be President?
:22:55. > :23:01.Well, I've said many times that I hope to be the first
:23:02. > :23:08.Venezuelan woman President, but at this time our only
:23:09. > :23:13.priority is to create a transition to move along,
:23:14. > :23:19.to stop this pain, and to create a Government of national unity
:23:20. > :23:22.in which all sectors, including those which have been
:23:23. > :23:26.supporting this regime, can feel included, in order to have
:23:27. > :23:31.strong democratic institutions, in order to move along
:23:32. > :23:34.in reactivating our economy to have production, to have jobs,
:23:35. > :23:40.to have prosperity, and to have most important of all,
:23:41. > :23:44.trust among us, trust among the Venezuelan people,
:23:45. > :23:47.which has been destroyed by this regime.
:23:48. > :24:16.Maria Corina Machado, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.
:24:17. > :24:20.I know it won't be to everybody's taste, but the summer heat
:24:21. > :24:22.is beginning to build, temperatures widely across central
:24:23. > :24:27.and eastern parts of England getting up to 26, 27 degrees.