:00:00. > :00:00.people complain about Angela Eagle and the Iraq war and that could be
:00:00. > :00:00.his silver bullet. Thank you for coming in. Now on BBC News it is
:00:00. > :00:18.time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk with Ms Aina
:00:19. > :00:26.Badawi. The attempted coup in Turkey may have been crushed, but has it
:00:27. > :00:33.exposed holes in bed gom's power? Members of the judiciary and police
:00:34. > :00:45.have been arrested or relieved from duty. My guest is Mehmet Simsek. Is
:00:46. > :00:47.that a gun to polarising a figure and is his grip on Turkey weaker
:00:48. > :01:15.than it seems? -- Erdogan. Deputy Prime Minister Mehmet Simsek
:01:16. > :01:20.in Ankara, welcome to HARDtalk. What an extraordinary time for Turkey.
:01:21. > :01:26.Nearly 300 people dead, clashes on the streets between the police and
:01:27. > :01:30.mutinous soldiers, civilians. 1500 wounded, the parliament in Ankara
:01:31. > :01:37.was bombed and President Erdogan hunted down by mutinous troops. This
:01:38. > :01:44.coup, had it been better organised, could have succeeded, couldn't it?
:01:45. > :01:53.What, thank you. Yes, it was really an extraordinary night in a really
:01:54. > :01:59.big nightmare and certainly it seems that it was quite an elaborate
:02:00. > :02:05.attempt to essentially get rid of a democratically elected government. I
:02:06. > :02:11.think with details coming out, certainly a fairly elaborate attempt
:02:12. > :02:15.and we have been very lucky to escape. I think not lucky, but I
:02:16. > :02:23.think people stood up for democracy and people were so courageous. This
:02:24. > :02:29.will probably go down in history where unarmed people stood up to
:02:30. > :02:35.tanks and planes and armed gangsters, rogue elements within the
:02:36. > :02:41.Army, and prevented a disruption in Turkish democracy, and hopefully
:02:42. > :02:46.that will prevent future attempts, not only in Turkey, but in other
:02:47. > :02:51.emerging democracies. It should be a source of inspiration. You were in
:02:52. > :02:55.your constituency. Where you worried? Were you worried for your
:02:56. > :03:05.safety, for instance? Yes, of course. Here is how things develop.
:03:06. > :03:13.I was in my constituency, nearly 2 million population and hosting
:03:14. > :03:22.250,000 Syrian refugees. I was with the OECD Secretary General. We were
:03:23. > :03:25.due to fly to Istanbul and the chief security and the governors said they
:03:26. > :03:31.wanted to have a word with me and they mention the work unusual
:03:32. > :03:35.movements of troops and that these might -- this might be the beginning
:03:36. > :03:41.of the military koo. It was shocking, but I said we have to
:03:42. > :03:47.fight them off. -- military coup. Let us set up a crisis management
:03:48. > :03:51.centre. I ended up going to democracy Square and within hours we
:03:52. > :03:59.had a quarter of a million people the and literally I think that
:04:00. > :04:04.massive show prevented the local general from getting out of his
:04:05. > :04:09.military camp. So you are talking about people power. We certainly saw
:04:10. > :04:12.people in the streets, but that was a worrying aspect of what happened
:04:13. > :04:19.because basically in some cases we saw lynch mobs turning on some of
:04:20. > :04:23.the soldiers and some of the soldiers, as you know, Deputy Prime
:04:24. > :04:29.Minister, were teenagers. Privates. They thought they were taking part
:04:30. > :04:33.in military exercises, not a military coup. There was a report of
:04:34. > :04:39.a soldier having his throat slit. Are you going to investigate this
:04:40. > :04:44.kind of moral justice? Absolutely, and your last bit is by the way
:04:45. > :04:51.incorrect. No one had his throat slit. That was misreporting. It has
:04:52. > :04:58.been fortified, but certainly we cannot approve of such acts. But
:04:59. > :05:05.imagine, you know, an army of a country, rogue elements within the
:05:06. > :05:11.Army essentially having tanks, aeroplanes, attacking people,
:05:12. > :05:16.civilians and the parliament and other security forces. So you can
:05:17. > :05:20.imagine the atmosphere. Of course maybe mistakes were made, but
:05:21. > :05:30.clearly the biggest crime was to turn military guns on people on a
:05:31. > :05:37.democratically elected government and Parliament. President Erdogan
:05:38. > :05:42.has said that the plotters will pay a heavy price. He wants to restore
:05:43. > :05:48.the death penalty in Turkey. Is that going to happen? No. No decision has
:05:49. > :05:53.been made on the death penalty. Certainly we are responding to
:05:54. > :06:01.massive public pressure to reinstate the death penalty. My government
:06:02. > :06:05.eliminated the death penalty teed achieved the EU accession talks at
:06:06. > :06:10.the beginning of the last decade. No decision has been made, but let's
:06:11. > :06:16.face it, I think perpetrators of this failed coup have two faced
:06:17. > :06:21.before. Justice otherwise it will be a huge injustice to Turkish people,
:06:22. > :06:26.to Turkish democracy. We have to stay within the rules. Sorry to
:06:27. > :06:34.interrupt you, but let us clarify the death penalty question because
:06:35. > :06:35.the EU foreign policy chief has said no country that wishes to join the
:06:36. > :06:40.European Union can have the death penalty on its statutes books, but
:06:41. > :06:44.yet the president is talking about restoring the death penalty. Is he
:06:45. > :06:52.whip up sentiment? No, I am just whip up sentiment? No, I am just
:06:53. > :06:56.saying that today the Prime Minister was honourable and making it clear
:06:57. > :07:02.that whilst he understands public demand for reinstating the death
:07:03. > :07:09.penalty, this is not a foregone conclusion. We don't have the hollow
:07:10. > :07:22.fibre to retreat to do so. It has to be discussed that the parliament and
:07:23. > :07:27.with other elements of society. Will it be debated in Parliament? The
:07:28. > :07:33.restoration of the death penalty? There may be consultations on
:07:34. > :07:38.whether or not in a narrow way something could be be introduced,
:07:39. > :07:42.but again, even that has not been decided. All right. There is another
:07:43. > :07:47.concern that President Erdogan will see what has gone on as a bank
:07:48. > :07:54.cheque to move against his opponents, whether or not they were
:07:55. > :08:01.implicated in the coup. And Istanbul -based lawyer talks about arrest
:08:02. > :08:12.warrants issued for thousands of people. Our big issue? Is it a
:08:13. > :08:20.witchhunt, Deputy Prime Minister? -- how were they issued. We already
:08:21. > :08:33.identified elements of the judiciary, they were remnants of the
:08:34. > :08:47.Gulen movement. We think that they were complicit in the coup. There
:08:48. > :08:55.was already a process. That process was accelerated to read juice the
:08:56. > :09:00.risk of the additional threat on the back of the military coup. As far as
:09:01. > :09:06.the military is concerned, all along we knew that there was a very
:09:07. > :09:12.significant presence of Gulen movement people in the Army and in
:09:13. > :09:17.fact, in early August there was a plan to retire most of them from
:09:18. > :09:24.military positions because every year you get basically a military
:09:25. > :09:32.high Council gathering that decides who to promote, who to retire. We
:09:33. > :09:38.get the answer. You are saying that the 15,000 or so officials who have
:09:39. > :09:41.either been arrested or relief from duty, suspended from duty, you are
:09:42. > :09:44.accelerating that process, but I accelerating that process, but I
:09:45. > :09:51.have to put it to you that one of the judges that has been suspended
:09:52. > :09:58.headed a panel ruling that said that Turkey's Bannan on Twitter was a
:09:59. > :10:01.breach of the Constitution. He is a member of the Constitutional Court,
:10:02. > :10:13.big country's 's body. If that the type of person included in these
:10:14. > :10:17.arrests? Not his arrest, sorry, his suspension from duty. You cannot
:10:18. > :10:25.take things out of context. We do have what appears to be a religious
:10:26. > :10:31.movement run by a retired preacher out of Pennsylvania. It has
:10:32. > :10:38.infiltrated the hierarchy of the judiciary and the military and state
:10:39. > :10:42.apparatus. We call it a parallel state. I do not believe that anyone
:10:43. > :10:47.would tolerate such a rogue element in the state and let us face it, the
:10:48. > :10:53.carnage that this military coup has triggered and caused and have it
:10:54. > :10:59.been successful, what sort of setback would Turkey have had?
:11:00. > :11:02.Taking us back to the dark days... I have to interrupt you, Deputy Prime
:11:03. > :11:09.Minister. You and your government are all pointing the finger at the
:11:10. > :11:16.to the Gulen, a cleric in his 70s who suffers from diabetes and this
:11:17. > :11:22.in Pennsylvania. He was once an ally of President Erdogan, but they fell
:11:23. > :11:29.out. He denies anything to do with the failed coup. Want to make that
:11:30. > :11:35.clear. Do you have evidence that his supporters were involved in the
:11:36. > :11:38.attempted coup? Let me give you one simple piece of evidence that has
:11:39. > :11:44.been uncovered just two nights ago. In one of the tanks that was
:11:45. > :11:51.attacking Istanbul police headquarters, we arrested a
:11:52. > :11:56.gentleman who was sacked from Turkish police units a few years ago
:11:57. > :12:02.for affiliation with Gulen movement. He was in military uniform. Now, let
:12:03. > :12:07.me ask you a simple question. What would a civilian who has been sacked
:12:08. > :12:13.from the police. You years ago do in military uniform in a military tank,
:12:14. > :12:18.attacking Turkish police headquarters? It does not
:12:19. > :12:22.necessarily mean he is anything to do with Fetuli Gulen because you
:12:23. > :12:27.know what the Americans say. John Kerry the US Secretary of State has
:12:28. > :12:35.said to you, to Turkey, we have always said, give us the evidence.
:12:36. > :12:41.We need a legal... Because your government is asking that the cleric
:12:42. > :12:44.be extradited from Pennsylvania. The Americans are thinking of the
:12:45. > :12:50.evidence. Why do you give it to them? Fair enough. We are going to
:12:51. > :12:54.give them the evidence. We are going to be at the latest evidence to the
:12:55. > :13:00.file as well. The Justice minister has already announced that and we
:13:01. > :13:05.hope that the United States will uphold its own rules under the
:13:06. > :13:09.Patriot act. Even if someone unknowingly contributes to an
:13:10. > :13:14.association that supports, that turns out to be associated with
:13:15. > :13:19.terrorist activity, they are also guilty. We will see how the US
:13:20. > :13:25.supplies its own standards. But members of your government have gone
:13:26. > :13:29.further. On the 16th of July the Prime Minister said that the country
:13:30. > :13:36.that stands behind this man, the Tulik Gulen, is no friend to Turkey.
:13:37. > :13:42.The Labour Minister said he believed the Obama Administration was behind
:13:43. > :13:48.the coup. Both kind of comments are quite extravagant, aren't they? You
:13:49. > :13:52.are at a risk of seeing a deterioration in your relationship
:13:53. > :13:58.with the United States. Listen, I mean, the United States is our ally,
:13:59. > :14:09.is our strategic partner and that has not changed, that will not
:14:10. > :14:14.change. We have disagreements on... The Syrian parties supported by the
:14:15. > :14:20.Americans. That is right. Even in families you disagree. This is not a
:14:21. > :14:25.disagreement. This is accusing the United States of somehow been
:14:26. > :14:29.complicit. John Kerry told the Foreign Minister in a phone call on
:14:30. > :14:36.Saturday that public insinuations or claims about any role by the United
:14:37. > :14:48.States in the belt koo attempt is -- in beef sales coup attempt is
:14:49. > :14:51.harmful. What would you say to that? There was a press conference and the
:14:52. > :14:58.minister reiterated the importance we attach to our strategic and
:14:59. > :15:02.alliance relationship with the United States. That is behind us,
:15:03. > :15:07.but we still expect the United States to live up to its own
:15:08. > :15:14.standards and to help us combat rogue elements and terrorism here
:15:15. > :15:27.locally and globally. I think that is a fair expectation. President
:15:28. > :15:35.Erdogan was on holiday and he flee back to Istanbul. We understand
:15:36. > :15:43.fighter jets targeted his plane. It was said that the facts that they
:15:44. > :15:49.coup happened showed us that Erdogan is vulnerable. His grip on power is
:15:50. > :16:01.not quite what people might think it is? Come on. President Erdogan, a
:16:02. > :16:07.simple face time call help take millions of people to the streets
:16:08. > :16:12.that prevented a vicious military coup and you are telling me that
:16:13. > :16:19.President Erdogan does not have a strong solid footing among people?
:16:20. > :16:23.Sorry, Deputy Prime Minister, I don't see how you can extrapolate
:16:24. > :16:30.from the fact that many Turks were opposed to the koo view were
:16:31. > :16:35.necessarily supporters. -- the coup. Many said we don't want the military
:16:36. > :16:40.involved in politics, we want them to remain in the barracks. You can't
:16:41. > :16:46.say that they are all Erdogan supporters. We know they are not.
:16:47. > :16:55.The make this argument. I personally think that President Erdogan has
:16:56. > :17:00.proved how big a menace these illegal parallel state, these rogue
:17:01. > :17:04.elements, because for four years he has been talking about them and
:17:05. > :17:08.going after them and many people around him and in the opposition did
:17:09. > :17:15.not believe it. Now it has proved that this menace is actually quite a
:17:16. > :17:20.danger to Turkish democracy, to Turkey's future. You have made that
:17:21. > :17:28.point, but I am making a different point that President Erdogan is not
:17:29. > :17:30.perhaps as strong as we think. For example, one of those people
:17:31. > :17:39.arrested in connection with the failed coup is an aid. The general
:17:40. > :17:48.who had open access to the President. Some of these arrests of
:17:49. > :17:52.based on some of the information, some of these suspicions, so I think
:17:53. > :17:56.the judiciary is going to look at this, is going to investigate and
:17:57. > :18:02.pass judgment. Right now we are being very cautious. We have to be
:18:03. > :18:08.because we have experienced a huge event... But please do answer my
:18:09. > :18:16.question. I am sorry to interrupt you. His inner circle could have
:18:17. > :18:21.been involved, isn't that right? I can't really judge that because the
:18:22. > :18:26.investigation will uncover it, but that they tell you this, I believe
:18:27. > :18:33.that President Erdogan's standing amongst Turkish people on a broader
:18:34. > :18:39.political spectrum has strengthened. Support for President Erdogan, even
:18:40. > :18:44.from other political parties, he has a much stronger appeal. He already
:18:45. > :18:49.enjoys strong public support. I would disagree with you to that
:18:50. > :18:53.extent. We know opposition parties have come out against the coup and
:18:54. > :19:01.you say how much support he has, but in the November elections, the party
:19:02. > :19:06.won 49.4% of the vote. You have half the Turkish population who did not
:19:07. > :19:10.support the party and Erdogan. My point is you have to reach out to
:19:11. > :19:16.them, he has to reach out to them. As the Financial Times said, Erdogan
:19:17. > :19:20.would do better to recognise democracy is not just about winning
:19:21. > :19:25.elections, but the need to show respect and restraint to opponents
:19:26. > :19:33.and build shared support. That has been lacking. I would agree with
:19:34. > :19:38.you, I think this catalyst big events, this massive event,
:19:39. > :19:44.hopefully will help us, will serve as a catalyst to actually have
:19:45. > :19:49.reconciliation domestically. In fact, there was an extraordinary
:19:50. > :19:52.session of Turkish parliament where I personally am very encouraged by
:19:53. > :20:01.constructive statements, so maybe this will help Turkey change the
:20:02. > :20:10.design constitution. Maybe this will help Turkey reduce polarisation,
:20:11. > :20:13.these domestic political tension. Resident Erdogan has already called
:20:14. > :20:21.the leaders of the opposition to thank them for their stance against
:20:22. > :20:26.the military. -- President Erdogan. Going forward, with many different
:20:27. > :20:32.people from different walks of life, I think it is a good sign that maybe
:20:33. > :20:42.we are about to embark, just the way we did on international affairs with
:20:43. > :20:44.Russia and Israel, to start a process of reconciliation
:20:45. > :20:48.domestically. So when you took about making turkey less polarised, I put
:20:49. > :20:53.it to you that the most polarising figure in Turkish politics is
:20:54. > :20:58.President Erdogan. You either love him or hate him. Is he not now a
:20:59. > :21:03.liability for the ruling party? Would it not be in the national
:21:04. > :21:09.interest and the interest of your party if the president were to say,
:21:10. > :21:14.look, a lot of the criticisms, the failed coup was very much directed
:21:15. > :21:20.at me personally, Erdogan. I am going to move on. I disagree with
:21:21. > :21:31.you. If Turkish democracy is where it is today, if the Turkish economy
:21:32. > :21:37.has improved, it is largely on the back of President Erdogan. His
:21:38. > :21:41.reforms, his outreach to address Kurdish issues and many issues. I
:21:42. > :21:50.disagree with you. President Erdogan has been a reformist and he has been
:21:51. > :21:53.spot on on this rogue state, rogue elements. I think the vast majority
:21:54. > :22:01.of people are recognising and appreciating his dance over the last
:22:02. > :22:09.few years. -- stance. The last couple of years have been difficult.
:22:10. > :22:13.We had to elections in 2014, two of them in 2015, there has been a lot
:22:14. > :22:20.of domestic noise and he has personally been targeted by this
:22:21. > :22:24.illegal movement that today is committing all sorts of atrocities.
:22:25. > :22:27.I think a lot of people now will appreciate how right President
:22:28. > :22:32.Erdogan has been. You have said that he has had progressive reformist
:22:33. > :22:40.policies. You are in charge of the economy. Your party has done more
:22:41. > :22:44.for the impoverished parts of your society, but does it look good when
:22:45. > :22:50.President Erdogan builds a Paris that costs $700 million with over a
:22:51. > :22:57.thousand rooms rushed Janmaat that is on the BBC website from the
:22:58. > :23:00.Ankara arm of the chamber of architects. What does it look like
:23:01. > :23:08.when you say, he has helped the poor? You know, the rate of absolute
:23:09. > :23:11.poverty was 30% in 2002 when President Erdogan became Prime
:23:12. > :23:21.Minister. It is down to less than 2%. Does he need that Palace? Let me
:23:22. > :23:30.ask you this. The repair will for the House of Commons is ?5
:23:31. > :23:36.billion... But that is not used by just one person. So you are
:23:37. > :23:40.justifying his palace? It is not about his palace. No one is going to
:23:41. > :23:47.last for ever. President Erdogan will not last for ever. This is
:23:48. > :23:52.Turkish real estate. Very quickly, people are willing Turkey to
:23:53. > :23:56.succeed. It is a pivotal nation in a tough neighbourhood. Will you now
:23:57. > :24:04.see stability in your country? Very quickly. Absolutely. Democracy has
:24:05. > :24:09.won. Democracy will be strengthened. Domestic reconciliation is underway.
:24:10. > :24:13.Domestic tensions will ease and yes, people have won and we will do
:24:14. > :24:18.everything to make people happy, creating jobs and doing structural
:24:19. > :24:21.reforms. Deputy Prime Minister Mehmet Simsek in Ankara, thank you
:24:22. > :24:50.for coming on HARDtalk. Good evening. It was the hottest day
:24:51. > :24:52.of the year so far. We will take a