:00:00. > :00:08.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:09. > :00:11.Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi.
:00:12. > :00:14.My guest is Pakistani businessman Shahbaz Taseer,
:00:15. > :00:18.recently released by the Taliban after nearly five years of captivity
:00:19. > :00:21.during which he endured constant torture.
:00:22. > :00:24.He's the son of the former governor of Punjab, who was assassinated
:00:25. > :00:29.in 2011 for his opposition to tough blasphemy laws.
:00:30. > :01:00.Has the vision of a tolerant, secular Pakistan been lost?
:01:01. > :01:14.Thank you. You were kidnapped IV militants and then handed over late
:01:15. > :01:17.last year to the Afghan Taliban. Did you ever think you would get out
:01:18. > :01:27.alive? You were released in March this year? In the position I was, I
:01:28. > :01:35.had just told myself you will go home one day. Having been there for
:01:36. > :01:44.4.5 years, I did not think February would be that day. February 2000 16.
:01:45. > :01:48.But never gave up on finding my way back home and finding my way back to
:01:49. > :01:53.freedom -- 2016. So you were released in February but got back in
:01:54. > :02:00.March? I was released on the 29th of the road, and it took me eight days.
:02:01. > :02:07.It was an awful check from Afghanistan to Pakistan -- 29th of
:02:08. > :02:13.February. How did you feel when you finally made it home? I always say
:02:14. > :02:19.this. There are actually no words for me to describe it. I can say I
:02:20. > :02:29.was very happy. But something you have prayed for, that you have
:02:30. > :02:33.fought for," way back, I remember when I saw my mother and my wife and
:02:34. > :02:39.my family, it was an overwhelming feeling -- crawled my way back. It
:02:40. > :02:44.is like I have won this battle. I have made it. I have done what I
:02:45. > :02:48.said I would do on the first day I was kidnapped, which is comeback
:02:49. > :02:53.hopefully as the person I am the people I love. You are from a
:02:54. > :03:00.wealthy family, business interests and so on. Your father of course was
:03:01. > :03:05.assassinated by his own bodyguard Eggers of his defence of a Christian
:03:06. > :03:13.woman who had been found guilty of blasphemy and sentenced to death in
:03:14. > :03:17.2020 -- 2010. The family was given a security detail because of that. Why
:03:18. > :03:24.on earth were you not travelling with guards at the time of your
:03:25. > :03:30.kidnapping? OK, so we were given a guide, and I never felt like there
:03:31. > :03:34.was this kind of danger. You can't really be prepared for something
:03:35. > :03:39.like this. I'd just like to live my life as a normal person, regardless
:03:40. > :03:43.of whom my father was, even while he was the governor. We did not take
:03:44. > :03:48.advantage of his position, and it was him, he was the governor, not
:03:49. > :03:54.us. We do not travel in security details or kept out. You didn't
:03:55. > :03:58.think you are under threat? I felt my father was under threat because
:03:59. > :04:03.of the stance he took. He was killed. Of course. But it was not my
:04:04. > :04:10.stance. It is so difficult to explain. You fight to be normal and
:04:11. > :04:15.people expect you roam around with security details and things like
:04:16. > :04:21.this, but... You were brought up in Pakistan. Do you think that was
:04:22. > :04:27.naive on your part in hindsight? No, because nothing like this has ever
:04:28. > :04:30.happened to me. Even now, I believe Pakistan, along with their lot of
:04:31. > :04:45.other countries, is the frontline of this war. -- the frontline. Which
:04:46. > :04:50.what? Even now I have been to do the naive to stay in this country is
:04:51. > :04:55.with security. But I am Pakistani. I have to stay here, even if it is
:04:56. > :04:59.dangerous for me. I will tell you, as far as security is concerned, my
:05:00. > :05:06.father was killed by his security guard. He used to say who will guard
:05:07. > :05:10.the guards? You can't live in fear. So you don't did that was a failure
:05:11. > :05:16.by the state in its duty of care to you? Humans right watch said it was
:05:17. > :05:20.a failing of the state in its inability to provide security even
:05:21. > :05:29.those known to be at high risk -- Human Rights Watch. I think it is a
:05:30. > :05:33.foul year as such, because these people do things with community --
:05:34. > :05:39.Valley. Just take what happened in France, in Nice, how can you prepare
:05:40. > :05:44.for this violent ideology and what will do? You be prepared for it. In
:05:45. > :05:48.the same way I was not prepared I would be kidnapped for 4.5 years. I
:05:49. > :05:53.do people in Orlando where prepared for what somebody did. It just takes
:05:54. > :05:56.an individual who is radicalised and feeling angry at the moment, and I
:05:57. > :06:02.don't think there is anything you could do to prevent it at the time.
:06:03. > :06:08.I can give you Pakistan's example, and many countries are following
:06:09. > :06:13.yet, a military operation was started against these forces because
:06:14. > :06:18.of the operation. I felt I had to leave Pakistan, which led to the
:06:19. > :06:21.circumstances of my release, in the same way it led to the circumstances
:06:22. > :06:32.of the release of the former Promina stuff. -- Prime Minister. His son.
:06:33. > :06:36.And also this young boy who was just kidnapped, I think because of this
:06:37. > :06:38.operation, they could not take into some of the tribal areas, which is
:06:39. > :06:47.why he was recovered in just a few months. He was very lucky. You said
:06:48. > :06:53.they do at with impunity, but the killer of your father was hung.
:06:54. > :06:58.There was just -- justice. That is not justice for me. I want my
:06:59. > :07:03.father. I have lost him. You can't give me justice. But it is justice
:07:04. > :07:07.for the people of Pakistan, that the Supreme Court hung a murderer
:07:08. > :07:12.regardless of how people would want to paint him as some hero figure.
:07:13. > :07:21.There are very few people who do that. A lot of people turned up for
:07:22. > :07:26.his funeral. Out of 200 million, I think 200,000 people is not a lot.
:07:27. > :07:32.My problem is I feel there is a silent majority that is not standing
:07:33. > :07:39.up for certain people in Pakistan, and thinking this is a majority who
:07:40. > :07:44.feel love for my father's murderer, which I do not agree with. A lot of
:07:45. > :07:48.people celebrated your father's assassination. That is true. But
:07:49. > :07:52.there were a lot of people who mourned it. I met with the people
:07:53. > :07:56.who mourned it. I met with hundreds of thousands. I felt we had
:07:57. > :08:04.international support even inside Pakistan. Like I said, I'll pass the
:08:05. > :08:08.negative. We will come back to the implications of what has happened
:08:09. > :08:16.for Pakistan and what it means for the country's identity --I look past
:08:17. > :08:20.the negative. So here you are having been released from this ordeal after
:08:21. > :08:25.nearly five years. What is it like? To be held hostage? You suffered
:08:26. > :08:38.torture. You had to endure constant torture. You know, there are no
:08:39. > :08:45.words to describe it. Somebody just comes one day and takes away
:08:46. > :08:49.everything you love. Small things like just having tea in the morning
:08:50. > :08:53.with the newspaper. Suddenly you are in a situation where you can't do
:08:54. > :09:00.anything, you can't move. Your hands and legs are tired. The rust on the
:09:01. > :09:05.chains is hurting your skin. It is very difficult. There are no words
:09:06. > :09:10.to describe how you feel. You are not prepared for it. No one can be
:09:11. > :09:16.prepared for it. But I think very early on, what I taught myself was
:09:17. > :09:22.this is not the life I choose. This situation I am in, I will not accept
:09:23. > :09:30.it -- told myself. This is not the person I am. I was not born to be
:09:31. > :09:37.some person's... I don't want to be saying the word slave, the captive.
:09:38. > :09:44.I was not a human being. Whether I pray, it did not matter to them.
:09:45. > :09:47.They just looked at me as an animal, not even as... We speak of these
:09:48. > :09:51.people and the things they do and say these people are animals. I hear
:09:52. > :09:57.it on the news all the time. There is a problem in Orlando on this, and
:09:58. > :10:02.people say they are animals. But these people thought I was an
:10:03. > :10:12.animal. What kind of treatment to bake inflict on you as a result of
:10:13. > :10:15.that? -- did they inflict on you? Being in chains and sleeping on the
:10:16. > :10:22.floor with no bed, being fed in small quantities once a day, that
:10:23. > :10:28.was very difficult. You find it strange, and luckily I was tortured
:10:29. > :10:37.very early in my captivity. I just drew a line. When they raised their
:10:38. > :10:40.hands, I drew a line. I said, I will make it out of this regardless of
:10:41. > :10:46.what they do, unless they physically kill me. I will make it out of this
:10:47. > :10:52.in one piece. That will be my victory. When you say they raised
:10:53. > :11:03.their hand, you were beaten? Last insult was put in the Bruins on your
:11:04. > :11:07.back -- salt was put in the wounds. These videos are as Hollywood style
:11:08. > :11:13.as they can be. It is to get a shock reaction. They wanted this reaction
:11:14. > :11:16.from my mother and from the government regardless of how much I
:11:17. > :11:20.tried to explain that there are months were ridiculous and no
:11:21. > :11:27.government would do with them. So the movement of Uzbekistan who were
:11:28. > :11:33.holding you, they are affiliated to the so-called Islamic State? They
:11:34. > :11:42.are affiliated with so-called Islamic State. When it was made, the
:11:43. > :11:50.self-declared caliphate of the world, by the way, he said these are
:11:51. > :11:54.the people I want. They shared that violent ideology. Even while they
:11:55. > :11:59.were living and the Pakistani Taliban, they did not like them.
:12:00. > :12:07.They could not relate to them. But as soon as Islamic State came along,
:12:08. > :12:10.they instantly secretly gave them a pledge and said everything you say
:12:11. > :12:15.is right. They held me for a long time. You said they wanted to get a
:12:16. > :12:22.message out to your family, your mother. Work videos made of you?
:12:23. > :12:27.Yes, they would make videos of pulling my now South. They said
:12:28. > :12:32.those videos to my mother. -- pulling my now is out. They would
:12:33. > :12:37.lash me every day. It started with 50 and went up to 100. Even that was
:12:38. > :12:42.not a splashing. They would make it as extravagant as they could.
:12:43. > :12:47.Sometimes they would bring to people to do it. Sometimes I were tiny
:12:48. > :12:56.against the ceiling or make me write down on the floor -- lie down. They
:12:57. > :13:02.wanted to humiliate me. Because of my humiliation should somehow my
:13:03. > :13:13.mother pay a wee ditty was ransom. How much? At $259. -- up to $200
:13:14. > :13:16.million. But they wanted 25 militants who nobody knew where they
:13:17. > :13:22.were. They never spoke about the money. That was the initial demand.
:13:23. > :13:27.But for 4.5 years, they just wanted these militants. Your family were
:13:28. > :13:33.willing to pay? My family does not have that much money. What can I say
:13:34. > :13:36.about the money? It never came down to negotiations about the money.
:13:37. > :13:44.They would not move from wanting these brothers of theirs. I knew you
:13:45. > :13:50.had fallen into the hands of the Afghan Taliban. When I came into
:13:51. > :13:54.their hands, I was in jail. There were other militant groups from
:13:55. > :13:57.Pakistan who refuse to fight the stable and just said we don't want
:13:58. > :14:02.to participate in this war. They were jailed with us. I met the
:14:03. > :14:10.Afghan Taliban leader and offered him money and said I would do what I
:14:11. > :14:15.can. Please, I want to go home. These people, for 4.5 years, they
:14:16. > :14:19.have taken my life away. I have a family. I can't give you 25
:14:20. > :14:24.militants, I can't even give you one. The only one they asked for I
:14:25. > :14:29.could do something about was the killer of my father, and my mother
:14:30. > :14:32.said, I want my son. I will appeal to the government and say I have
:14:33. > :14:36.forgiven him and drop the case. I don't care. I just want my son.
:14:37. > :14:43.That didn't happen. They realised he was from a different school of
:14:44. > :14:49.thought. They said he was an infidel. This is the mentality. Is
:14:50. > :14:57.that how you were released in the end? No, I didn't. This Taliban told
:14:58. > :15:03.me they don't believe in kidnapping and ransom. I found it funny. The
:15:04. > :15:10.group that kidnapped me was under the umbrella for sometime. They had
:15:11. > :15:14.forced these beliefs on him earlier. He said he wasn't interested and
:15:15. > :15:23.didn't want the money. What I think is... It took me months. He was left
:15:24. > :15:26.with a simple choice. If he stays, sooner or later they will be
:15:27. > :15:32.released from this prison. They will kill him. We can kill him or we can
:15:33. > :15:38.leave him. I think they just let me go. They just opened the door of the
:15:39. > :15:48.jail and let me go. No militants were released and no money paid? No
:15:49. > :15:54.money. So, here you are now enjoying your freedom and your family. You
:15:55. > :16:02.made that last for a very long time. To go back to your family, you are
:16:03. > :16:08.from this high-profile family, your father was the governor of Punjab
:16:09. > :16:18.when he was killed and so on, he always said, look, I represent the
:16:19. > :16:22.vision of Pakistan which of the founding father talked about at the
:16:23. > :16:29.time of its creation when it was partitioned from India. One thing he
:16:30. > :16:33.said, you are free to go to your temples, free to go to your mosque
:16:34. > :16:41.or any place of worship in their state of Pakistan. That has nothing
:16:42. > :16:47.to do with the business of the state. You agree with that vision?
:16:48. > :16:51.That is the vision Pakistan was made on, so of course I agree with that
:16:52. > :17:00.vision. That was a vision my father died fighting for. Of course. It is
:17:01. > :17:06.a basic way for humanity. I don't care what race, colour and religion
:17:07. > :17:11.Niua. I have to be acceptable. -- you are. That is the foundation of
:17:12. > :17:16.Islam. We cannot force someone to become Muslim. God has said it
:17:17. > :17:23.himself. He says, you are the messenger. I put faith in people's
:17:24. > :17:28.hearts. That is God speaking to you. Your father had wanted a change in
:17:29. > :17:33.the blasphemy laws under which a Christian woman was found guilty of
:17:34. > :17:41.blasphemy. She had insulted the holy Koran. Accused of that. Allegedly,
:17:42. > :17:44.she says she didn't, and she is still in prison, technically on
:17:45. > :17:50.death Row. He wanted a change in the rules. Is that something you are
:17:51. > :17:54.advocating? I will tell you something my father said before he
:17:55. > :17:58.died, he said men and countries are defined by how they stand up for the
:17:59. > :18:05.week. Not how they lean on the strong. At the time of my father's
:18:06. > :18:10.death, he was what must seem like fighting a lonely battle against the
:18:11. > :18:17.oppression of minorities in Pakistan. It is not just blasphemy
:18:18. > :18:21.law, it is many things. It is the way our society is becoming. They
:18:22. > :18:30.are persecuting people. My father said this law needs to be changed.
:18:31. > :18:39.Any law that harms of the rights of citizens must be amended. Even some
:18:40. > :18:42.in Pakistan who are happy about my father's murder have asked for
:18:43. > :18:48.amendments in the blasphemy law. They said he deserved to die. That
:18:49. > :18:54.makes no sense to me. If they are saying we need change then we need
:18:55. > :19:00.change, so I can't do it, I am just an ordinary person. The people who
:19:01. > :19:08.can, they must make sure that every national in Pakistan, their interest
:19:09. > :19:12.is safeguarded, their religion, cultural beliefs, everything is
:19:13. > :19:19.safeguarded. How far has Pakistan departed from that vision? As long
:19:20. > :19:23.as the majority chooses to remain silent, everyday we are going
:19:24. > :19:27.further and further away from that vision and we will continue to do
:19:28. > :19:34.so. So you say the majority. The majority belong to a group amongst
:19:35. > :19:38.whom you would count yourself as the liberal elite, well, not the elite,
:19:39. > :19:42.but liberal. It isn't even that, I would say it is an understanding
:19:43. > :19:48.people who, by the way, are scared, just like you and me, or any person
:19:49. > :19:54.in any society, of guns and suicide bombing and extremism. And so they
:19:55. > :19:57.ceased Ireland. And the only thing that happens is that few people who
:19:58. > :20:02.think they can speak for the majority -- and so they stay silent.
:20:03. > :20:06.There is a majority in Pakistan who stand by my father and her stand for
:20:07. > :20:12.basic understanding. And I support them. -- and who stand for basic
:20:13. > :20:16.understanding. Is it a majority, or is it a case of Pakistan being
:20:17. > :20:20.pulled in different directions? The kind of Pakistan that gave you a
:20:21. > :20:26.woman leader, Benazir Bhutto, and the kind of Pakistan that sort
:20:27. > :20:30.Malala Yousafzai, a teenager, you know being shot because she wanted
:20:31. > :20:37.an education -- saw. These are competing visions. It will be
:20:38. > :20:42.difficult for me to explain, but it is the same Pakistan. There are
:20:43. > :20:49.people in Pakistan that's AI was never kidnapped. Just today on
:20:50. > :20:53.social media that said I was never tortured -- that say I was never
:20:54. > :20:58.kidnapped. Imagine my mother who had to sit through these videos of her
:20:59. > :21:02.son being mutilated on TV. Why did she watch them? She watched a couple
:21:03. > :21:06.and then said she couldn't do it because of the message of a demand.
:21:07. > :21:11.They would ask her if she saw the video, or if they should make
:21:12. > :21:17.another one. How can she say, I won't watch it, so make another one?
:21:18. > :21:21.It is the same Pakistan. Malala Yousafzai has support in Pakistan.
:21:22. > :21:26.It is wonderful what she is doing. You are part of the liberal path. I
:21:27. > :21:32.haven't come across someone who has had another narrative. Look at the
:21:33. > :21:40.unfortunate case of the recent social media start in Pakistan,
:21:41. > :21:47.mid-20s, she upset a lot of the social customs and so on, and her
:21:48. > :21:55.brother has allegedly confessed. Her brother is a violent person. He is
:21:56. > :21:59.not religious,... He said she brought fame on the family. He was a
:22:00. > :22:08.drug addict who stole her money and ran off with her phone. Allegedly.
:22:09. > :22:11.I.e. I am using her case of a young woman who says she wants to live as
:22:12. > :22:14.she wants to live and this is my modern interpretation of what it
:22:15. > :22:22.means to be a young woman. She said she was a feminist. There are many
:22:23. > :22:27.on social media who said, yes, she shouldn't behave like that. It is
:22:28. > :22:31.hurtful. There are many on social media who say that my father
:22:32. > :22:36.deserved to die. Does anyone deserve to die for living the way they want?
:22:37. > :22:43.There is some intolerance. Which side is winning? As long as people
:22:44. > :22:47.stay silent, if people don't stand up for what they believe in, no one
:22:48. > :22:53.else will. America and the UK won't put some point in the aid money to
:22:54. > :22:58.please remove blasphemy laws or amend them or give women more
:22:59. > :23:05.rights. Which side is women? The other side. As long as they pick up
:23:06. > :23:09.arms and we remain quiet. As long as they dictate terms through violent
:23:10. > :23:19.means, and we are quiet and scared, no one else will stand up. Look at
:23:20. > :23:26.what is happening. 1000 killed in honour killing. Use either violence.
:23:27. > :23:32.The Muslim lawyer of the woman is under threat. He is. You look at
:23:33. > :23:36.your father, you look at Pakistan, and frankly he died in vain. I don't
:23:37. > :23:41.think so. I think it takes one person to bring change. If there are
:23:42. > :23:47.more, that is even better. People need to get serious about what is
:23:48. > :23:52.happening in Pakistan. Politicians can't just come on social media and
:23:53. > :23:55.condemned or not. They have Pakistan to take steps to ensure the safety
:23:56. > :24:04.of their citizens and it is not happening. It is not just about the
:24:05. > :24:11.blasphemy law. Like I said, it is about any law in Pakistan that
:24:12. > :24:20.Victor Moses people. If there is no protection bill for women in
:24:21. > :24:23.Pakistan. Thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. Thanks so
:24:24. > :24:44.much for having me. It was a pleasure.
:24:45. > :24:48.Tuesday did turn out to be the hottest day of the year so far,
:24:49. > :24:51.with clear blue skies witnessed across most of the UK.
:24:52. > :24:54.The highest temperature we had in the UK was 34 degrees