:00:10. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Sarah Montague. Ilya Ponomarev was only
:00:21. > :00:21.one of 446 deputies who voted against the Russian parliament's
:00:22. > :00:24.vote on President Putin's annexation of Crimea. Within months he was
:00:25. > :00:26.accused of fraud and his bank accounts were frozen. He now lives
:00:27. > :00:29.in the United States and says "the best talent we need for a future
:00:30. > :00:31.Russian government" is there. So can Russians in exile really make a
:00:32. > :00:53.difference when the man they want to overthrow is so popular at home?
:00:54. > :01:06.THEME SONG PLAYS. Ilya Ponomarev, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for
:01:07. > :01:14.having me. Why did you vote against the annexation of Crimea? I think
:01:15. > :01:18.the answer for that question is obvious. Are you was against the
:01:19. > :01:25.bloodshed. Ukraine, the closest neighbour and Allied, is now our
:01:26. > :01:31.enemy. -- ally. That is an appropriate. Did you expect to be
:01:32. > :01:36.the only one of all the deputies voting that way? Unfortunately, yes.
:01:37. > :01:39.I spoke to all of them who could have voted another way and
:01:40. > :01:45.unfortunately none of them wanted to join me. There is obviously a
:01:46. > :01:49.history of people in Russia speaking out against the government having a
:01:50. > :01:54.difficult time. What did you expect to happen as a result of your boat?
:01:55. > :02:00.In general, many people speak against the government. This
:02:01. > :02:05.particular case was pretty much important for the president
:02:06. > :02:08.personally. That is why I expected consequences. I was just thinking
:02:09. > :02:13.they would be consequences inside the country and they would try to
:02:14. > :02:16.create a criminal case when I am inside the country and they would
:02:17. > :02:20.try to put me in jail. But they learnt their lesson and didn't want
:02:21. > :02:26.any more martyrs like they had previously with other people. What
:02:27. > :02:31.did happen? When did you first realise there was a problem? Umm,
:02:32. > :02:38.you know, I got messages straightaway. Straightaway I was
:02:39. > :02:46.called a national traitor, the fifth column, the agent of the CIA. But,
:02:47. > :02:51.that is a usual accusation that Russian opposition here is. In July,
:02:52. > :02:56.when I was on the business trip, they decided to close the borders
:02:57. > :03:02.amid. They said I could not cross the Russian border any more. You
:03:03. > :03:09.went to the US? Your accounts were frozen? Yeah. I was lucky I was in
:03:10. > :03:13.the United States and not in some other location. They actually froze
:03:14. > :03:24.my bank accounts and shut down my credit card. I was left penniless in
:03:25. > :03:27.another country. I had to start a real new life. Being in the United
:03:28. > :03:34.States, I had many friends to help me. Your family, your children, they
:03:35. > :03:40.are still in Russia, aren't they? No, actually. I brought them out. It
:03:41. > :03:46.was a lengthy and not a very easy process. My son is now in Germany.
:03:47. > :03:51.My daughter is now with her mother in Bulgaria. They are safe, at
:03:52. > :03:59.least. As far as you are concerned, your family, as you say, are now
:04:00. > :04:03.separated. You have been charged with embezzlement. They accuse you
:04:04. > :04:10.of having embezzled $400,000 from a foundation. What do you say to those
:04:11. > :04:17.charges and why do you not go back to defend yourself? They are
:04:18. > :04:22.charging every single opposition leader with some case. They invent
:04:23. > :04:25.something for every single person. It is just that the articles of the
:04:26. > :04:28.criminal court are slightly different. The most popular one is
:04:29. > :04:36.exactly this, embezzlement or stealing money from the state
:04:37. > :04:43.budget. This is a case for any people, including Sergei, who voted
:04:44. > :04:51.in favour of Georgia, and for those who voted for international
:04:52. > :04:57.terrorism. This is to show Russian people that Russian authorities may
:04:58. > :04:59.not be ideal. Many know they are involved in corruption. But the
:05:00. > :05:03.opposition is no better. That is what they are saying. Why don't you
:05:04. > :05:08.go back home and fight and defend yourself against those charges? You
:05:09. > :05:14.know, there are no courts right now to debate this in Russia. It is like
:05:15. > :05:20.you are playing a soccer game when there is just one set of goals and
:05:21. > :05:29.all the judges are on one side and you really cannot confront them is
:05:30. > :05:32.API tried to do that. -- them. I debated those charges in the civil
:05:33. > :05:38.case but no one listened. My situation is similar. Let them go to
:05:39. > :05:42.Interpol. Let them dry and international prosecution and let
:05:43. > :05:48.the international court see all 30 arguments and let them decide. --
:05:49. > :05:53.the. -- all the arguments. I am always checking in on Facebook where
:05:54. > :06:05.I am right now. So far, no Interpol. Only threats. It is just the courts.
:06:06. > :06:09.Your own party, A Just Russia, has also turned against you. You have
:06:10. > :06:15.been threatened with impeachment. You have been removed. Only a few
:06:16. > :06:24.other in your party of 60 plus voted with you. That is absolutely right.
:06:25. > :06:30.My party, when it was carrying white ribbons on their suits, later, they
:06:31. > :06:37.took them off, and started to show their loyalty to President Putin.
:06:38. > :06:42.That is a very sad case. Unfortunately, they are a member of
:06:43. > :06:46.a different national alliance. None of my partners actually questions
:06:47. > :06:50.this kind of behaviour. They totally flipped on their political position.
:06:51. > :06:54.I am standing on the position when we were running for the elections. I
:06:55. > :07:00.am standing exactly on the position I was promising to my constituents.
:07:01. > :07:06.Unfortunately, the party has changed all that. OK, so, for what you are
:07:07. > :07:12.saying, they are all wrong, everyone bringing a case against you, and you
:07:13. > :07:17.are right? No, I am not saying that. I can saying that people are weak.
:07:18. > :07:22.They always say that politics is the art of the impossible. There are
:07:23. > :07:26.real people inside my party that remain there. But they are trying to
:07:27. > :07:30.fight against different economic measures of the government,
:07:31. > :07:35.different social initiatives, and they justified by this that they
:07:36. > :07:39.still continue fighting against this new liberal measure that they are
:07:40. > :07:44.still in the Parliament and have to be loyal to be president because
:07:45. > :07:48.otherwise they will be impeached in the same fashion I was. OK, but in
:07:49. > :07:52.terms of what this meant that you outside the country, I know you were
:07:53. > :07:55.suddenly told by a friend that there was a billboard on a 10-storey
:07:56. > :08:00.building across from the Kremlin with your face on it and the words,
:08:01. > :08:06.national traitor. Now, that was some time after you left. And you said
:08:07. > :08:09.that you were fearful of staying in the same place for more than a
:08:10. > :08:16.couple of nights. Is that still the case? Do you still fear? Fear for
:08:17. > :08:22.what may happen to you? Look, I don't fear. What will happen will
:08:23. > :08:28.happen, I thought. I and doing what I need to. Some people in the
:08:29. > :08:32.opposition like to talk about this, how they have been prosecuted. I
:08:33. > :08:38.don't like to talk about that. Yes, in modern Russia, we have the same
:08:39. > :08:44.set of events that were happening in Germany in 1930. Unfortunately. And
:08:45. > :08:48.the country is going in exactly the same direction, with
:08:49. > :08:55.authoritarianism, the same tricks of state propaganda, and, that really
:08:56. > :09:02.makes me sorry for my country. What makes me sorry is our neighbours, it
:09:03. > :09:07.is dangerous for then. But what am I supposed to do? I am a Russian
:09:08. > :09:17.Patriot. I need to fight against them. You are seriously comparing
:09:18. > :09:26.Russia with German? I use an President Putin is Hitler? I
:09:27. > :09:31.wouldn't say this. But his public speeches used the same terminology.
:09:32. > :09:34.They have the same word. For President Putin, it would be too
:09:35. > :09:42.high of a comparison. He is more like one of Hitler's aides, like
:09:43. > :09:49.Herbels, because he does not have grand vision and objectives. He
:09:50. > :09:55.doesn't want to kill people either. -- Goebells. He just wants to be
:09:56. > :09:59.rich. Why do you say you are fearful for Russia's neighbours? My country,
:10:00. > :10:06.unfortunately, is a country with a great culture, a great tradition,
:10:07. > :10:10.the great system of education, and people at the end of today, they
:10:11. > :10:13.aren't this, they are threatening neighbours, they are trying to force
:10:14. > :10:19.them, instead of with soft power, they are using hard power. That
:10:20. > :10:25.makes me sorry for my people and it makes me really sorry for all of our
:10:26. > :10:28.neighbours. Like here, we are standing in Ukraine, and I am
:10:29. > :10:32.talking to Ukrainians. They are always friendly to ordinary
:10:33. > :10:38.Russians. They don't understand why we, like relatives right now, are
:10:39. > :10:42.fighting. It is not the Guild of Ukrainians, it is the guilt of
:10:43. > :10:50.Russia. -- macro. What about the Baltic states? Is Nato, the West,
:10:51. > :11:02.are they fearful Russia could scare up trouble in the Baltic states?
:11:03. > :11:09.Vladimir Putin cannot stop confrontation. He pulled out of
:11:10. > :11:13.confrontation. The Baltic states have the obvious target of Russia
:11:14. > :11:19.and Vladimir Putin going further. I think that, of course, the military
:11:20. > :11:25.of those states have to be reinforced. Bite you are talking
:11:26. > :11:36.about somebody who has approval ratings in Russia consistently of
:11:37. > :11:38.more than 80%. -- but. This is from independent Western polls as well as
:11:39. > :11:45.Russian ones. He is unbelievably popular and what the Russians want.
:11:46. > :11:49.I think that he is genuinely popular. Of course, I don't think it
:11:50. > :11:56.is above 80%. People can sometimes not be sincere in an authoritarian
:11:57. > :12:01.state. To expect to give those answers for psychological bolsters
:12:02. > :12:06.is kind of, you know, you have not lived in this kind of society. --
:12:07. > :12:10.pollsters. But of course he is popular. He is popular because
:12:11. > :12:15.people think we are protecting the minorities outside Russian borders.
:12:16. > :12:22.They really think that it is an American invasion, it is a Western
:12:23. > :12:24.invasion in the Ukraine, and we are the good guys. We are protecting
:12:25. > :12:30.then. Your society can feel the same invading Iraq. You also feel you are
:12:31. > :12:34.the good guys despite not always being right. But there are plenty of
:12:35. > :12:37.people in the West, plenty of British people, who would say that
:12:38. > :12:45.actually the problems of Ukraine started when the West moved into
:12:46. > :12:50.Russia's backyard. That is the words of a professor at Chicago
:12:51. > :12:54.university. He wrote a book about the Ukraine crisis being the fault
:12:55. > :13:00.of the West, saying that what the West did was provocative. You know,
:13:01. > :13:07.you can justify whatever you want to justified. We can go to the approach
:13:08. > :13:13.of two millenniums backwards, World War Two, but we are living in the
:13:14. > :13:19.21st century. Ukraine is an independent country. Also, I don't
:13:20. > :13:22.like the fact, and I feel sorry, that Ukrainians decided to go the
:13:23. > :13:28.wrong way 25 years ago. But it was their choice. We have to respect
:13:29. > :13:31.that choice. They voted for it in any legal public referendum. Russia
:13:32. > :13:38.should take it and recognise it as an independent state. There is no
:13:39. > :13:41.fear of influence. The good will of the Ukrainian and Russian people and
:13:42. > :13:45.the good will of the European Union and the European people. You are now
:13:46. > :13:49.in a situation where you have said the Baltic states need to be more
:13:50. > :13:51.heavily defended. You have called for the West to arm the Ukraine
:13:52. > :14:03.against your own country. I call to compensate the military
:14:04. > :14:09.between Ukraine and Russia. Because Ukraine was for a very long time
:14:10. > :14:12.relying on so-called Budapest Memorandum where western states
:14:13. > :14:20.including Great Britain by the way made guarantees to Ukraine on its
:14:21. > :14:23.territorial integrity. You didn't honour your own obligations
:14:24. > :14:28.according to that memorandum. And now Ukraine has to restore its
:14:29. > :14:31.military power. And if you are not honouring your obligations towards
:14:32. > :14:37.Ukraine at least compensate and help them create military and stop
:14:38. > :14:40.bloodshed at the end of the day. I have no doubt Ukraine will not
:14:41. > :14:45.invade Russia but Ukraine should be able to defend itself. OK but Mr
:14:46. > :14:48.Ilya Ponomarev you are trying to convince your fellow Russians that
:14:49. > :14:54.they need change and here you are calling for Russia's neighbours to
:14:55. > :14:58.be armed. You have also suggested that economic sanctions against
:14:59. > :15:00.Russians should be expanded to all government workers and their
:15:01. > :15:08.families. I mean these are ordinary Russians. Is it any wonder that they
:15:09. > :15:13.are calling you a national traitor? You see my position is that what you
:15:14. > :15:18.have done with sanctions by imposing economic sanctions on the whole of
:15:19. > :15:24.the nation was a mistake because you yourself gave to turn all the
:15:25. > :15:28.necessary tools to show that the west is the necessary enemy --
:15:29. > :15:33.Putin. That affects ordinary people and it doesn't affect the elites.
:15:34. > :15:36.What I am saying is that you should change this position. You should
:15:37. > :15:41.fight against the elites, those who are making those decisions, though
:15:42. > :15:46.are giving orders in Ukraine to kill ordinary Ukrainians. Those who are
:15:47. > :15:50.the foundation of this regime. But you're not doing this because you
:15:51. > :15:54.are benefiting from those guys to do their money laundering in the west
:15:55. > :15:58.by moving their capital in the western countries, including Great
:15:59. > :16:02.Britain once again. You have made it very clear that the west should
:16:03. > :16:10.effectively keep out of Russia because they just make a mess of it
:16:11. > :16:14.but your solution is that exiles, exiles like you can be a political
:16:15. > :16:22.force and from the outside, what, forced a revolution in Russia? Look,
:16:23. > :16:25.my personal strategy is not from the outside trying to create a
:16:26. > :16:29.revolution in Russia. Firstly I don't believe that revolutions are
:16:30. > :16:33.being created. Moreover that they can be created from the outside of
:16:34. > :16:38.the country, from the outside of the national borders. The guy who is
:16:39. > :16:42.creating the revolution in Russia, his name is Vladimir Putin right
:16:43. > :16:47.now. With what he is doing. What we are supposed to do is to showcase
:16:48. > :16:52.the alternative. And right now by being here in Ukraine I am trying to
:16:53. > :16:57.help Ukranian economy by showing to ordinary Russians that by creating a
:16:58. > :17:01.revolution you can actually prosper, you can actually benefit, that your
:17:02. > :17:05.nation can start to develop. And this is not happening right now in
:17:06. > :17:10.Ukraine because the country doesn't have a clear strategy of where to
:17:11. > :17:18.develop and I hope to help with this thing. Secondly, I want to help to
:17:19. > :17:23.organise Russian buyouts -- Ponomarev, because Russia has had a
:17:24. > :17:27.brain drain with more than a million living in the last two years and
:17:28. > :17:32.these are the most capital people, the most entrepreneurial, the most
:17:33. > :17:36.bright and capable scientific brains. And by getting them united,
:17:37. > :17:40.getting them to create his alternative for the country I think
:17:41. > :17:43.they can later returned to the country and create a new nation. It
:17:44. > :17:47.sounds like a government in exile. You said the best we need for this
:17:48. > :17:52.government is in the US. You are talking about what? It is not the
:17:53. > :17:59.government in exile. Government is Anna Lieuwe -- is an elitist
:18:00. > :18:04.approach. I am talking about common initiative. So how would it work? So
:18:05. > :18:09.you have the people you are marshalling from the bottom up. What
:18:10. > :18:16.changes, what changes in Russia as a result of that? It is a new vision
:18:17. > :18:20.for the country. Right now the only person who can say that he has the
:18:21. > :18:27.vision is Vladimir Putin. And when you are asking me about the surveys
:18:28. > :18:30.that show he is popular, he is popular because there is no
:18:31. > :18:34.alternative. And when you are selecting somebody from nobody, of
:18:35. > :18:38.course he will get the high numbers. As soon as people would see that
:18:39. > :18:44.there is an alternative, and this alternative is not about
:18:45. > :18:51.personalities, is not about anything but the way the country is supposed
:18:52. > :18:54.to go, then his numbers will start to decrease. This vision you are
:18:55. > :19:00.painting is from outside Russia. What is changing inside Russia?
:19:01. > :19:04.Right now think that our changing inside Russia, these are changing
:19:05. > :19:08.for worse, and that will continue for a while in the same direction --
:19:09. > :19:10.are. Of course, there are certain forces who are participating in the
:19:11. > :19:15.parliamentary elections which are coming this September, and I have my
:19:16. > :19:20.personal preference whom I am supporting during these elections,
:19:21. > :19:24.and I am trying to influence my constituents to come to the polling
:19:25. > :19:28.stations and vote, and vote consciously, but nothing will change
:19:29. > :19:32.through the elections. It is a process, it is not about a result.
:19:33. > :19:39.Anatoly Goulburn in the Russian Times said whenever the opposition
:19:40. > :19:45.has to tackle fundamental problems it disintegrates into little
:19:46. > :19:49.splinters. Is he right? The main problem of political opposition in
:19:50. > :19:54.Russia that has been associated with 1990s and nothing is worse for
:19:55. > :20:00.Russian person to go back in 1990s, and that's one of the main problems
:20:01. > :20:04.of the Liberal opposition, because Sony people were in the government
:20:05. > :20:07.at that time. And when people are choosing between then and Vladimir
:20:08. > :20:11.Putin they always choose Vladimir Putin because it was a time of
:20:12. > :20:14.relative prosperity for the common Russians -- so many people. So to go
:20:15. > :20:18.further the opposition has to present a vision. OK but since 2012
:20:19. > :20:23.you said I think this regime will not survive another two years, it
:20:24. > :20:26.might not even survive a year. UKIP predicting that President Putin will
:20:27. > :20:29.be out of power in two or three years and yet you say it is not
:20:30. > :20:37.going to happen via elections. How is it going to happen? I think it
:20:38. > :20:40.can happen actually every given day. Because the elites in Russia right
:20:41. > :20:48.now, they are totally unhappy with what's going on. And if they in
:20:49. > :20:52.their anteroom are silently pressuring President Putin to do
:20:53. > :20:55.some changes. They are not happy with the economy, they are not happy
:20:56. > :21:01.with relations with the west, but what Vladimir Putin is saying is
:21:02. > :21:05.hush, sit tight, sanctions will be lifted, we will be victorious, you
:21:06. > :21:08.know, nothing would change, we will get back to the business as usual.
:21:09. > :21:12.And right now they are sitting and waiting. If they would see that
:21:13. > :21:18.there is no business as usual things would start to change. If they would
:21:19. > :21:24.see that Weston community is backing up and is not doing what it was
:21:25. > :21:27.doing, doing what it was saying in public, then of course things will
:21:28. > :21:31.continue like this for another six or seven years at least -- western.
:21:32. > :21:35.But you have said elites cannot be changed gradually as newcomers will
:21:36. > :21:39.be corrupted either bad practices and approaches of the past. The
:21:40. > :21:44.future needs to be built from scratch. And it sounds like
:21:45. > :21:51.somebody... I know you admire Lenin. It sounds like something he would
:21:52. > :21:55.say. Again, I think that the changes, they will come in two
:21:56. > :22:00.stages. All changes in Russia, they started from the top. There was no
:22:01. > :22:05.time in Russian history when the initial change was not initiated
:22:06. > :22:10.from the top. And I think that the situation is moving in the
:22:11. > :22:14.direction, the situation will start to change from the top. But then the
:22:15. > :22:20.common people should pick it up and it should be a mass protest. It
:22:21. > :22:23.shouldn't be an elitist approach. And this is something that I am
:22:24. > :22:27.trying to work on right now. OK, so use a change will come because
:22:28. > :22:32.someone near, someone at the top near President Putin, will make a
:22:33. > :22:39.move against him? It is not necessarily that it will be a move
:22:40. > :22:42.against him. You know, it can be relatively friendly move. Let's
:22:43. > :22:49.start to change something. Let's play another game like it was played
:22:50. > :22:54.between Vladimir Putin and. Let's change another face, but it's no
:22:55. > :22:57.longer 2008, and as soon as they start any kind of serious changes I
:22:58. > :23:01.think the situation will actually below. The situation would blow
:23:02. > :23:06.because what, the people would insist on change? -- blow. Yes,
:23:07. > :23:12.because people no longer want to wait. They want those changes. And
:23:13. > :23:16.right now they see a person in charge, they see the only person who
:23:17. > :23:21.is powerful and who is seen as more powerful than western leaders. As
:23:22. > :23:28.soon as they would see that this person is not so powerful any longer
:23:29. > :23:30.than the changes would start. Ilya Ponomarev, thank you for coming on
:23:31. > :24:06.HARDtalk. Thank you very much. After a couple of really hot days it
:24:07. > :24:09.all went bang somewhat on Wednesday. Certainly for some there was a whole
:24:10. > :24:12.host of thunderstorms across Scotland, clearing out
:24:13. > :24:14.into the North Sea now, a rash of them across eastern
:24:15. > :24:17.England disappearing