0:00:07 > 0:00:10Welcome to Hardtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12The Turkish government is using a state of emergency
0:00:12 > 0:00:16to continue hunting down people it claims are followers
0:00:16 > 0:00:21of the reclusive, US-based Turkish cleric Fethullah Gulen.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24The government blames him for the recent coup attempt,
0:00:24 > 0:00:28and wants the US to extradite him to Turkey to stand trial.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30He denies involvement.
0:00:30 > 0:00:32My guest is Ismail Sezgin, director of the Centre
0:00:32 > 0:00:40for Hizmet Studies in the UK, a think tank founded by Gulenists.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42Is the Gulenist movement a threat to the Turkish state?
0:00:42 > 0:00:52Ismail Sezgin, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11Ismail Sezgin, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:11 > 0:01:13Thank you very much.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15Fethullah Gulen has followers in about 160 countries,
0:01:15 > 0:01:19from Kenya to Kazakhstan.
0:01:19 > 0:01:24The movement runs schools, media outlets, businesses.
0:01:24 > 0:01:33What are the fundamental teachings of Fethullah Gulen?
0:01:33 > 0:01:35Well, we can simply define Hizmet as a religiously-inspired social
0:01:35 > 0:01:36movement which works around education, dialogue,
0:01:36 > 0:01:42and charitable activities.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44The core principle is that as a Muslim you are responsible
0:01:44 > 0:01:47towards God, and the way to fulfil those responsibly is you have
0:01:47 > 0:01:53to do certain things.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55And what you should do, and there is a historical line that
0:01:55 > 0:01:57Fethullah Gulen picks up, but that we should actually
0:01:58 > 0:01:59contribute to our society.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02Because the best of you is the most helpful to society, so how can
0:02:02 > 0:02:04I help to my society, by solving its problems?
0:02:05 > 0:02:05What problems?
0:02:05 > 0:02:08So we can debate around it, yes, but it is the ignorance,
0:02:08 > 0:02:09poverty and discrimination.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13Naturally, Fethullah Gulen opposes tyranny in his books,
0:02:13 > 0:02:15but this is mainly defined as ignorance, poverty
0:02:15 > 0:02:16and discrimination.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18So to sort problems out, as a social responsibility,
0:02:18 > 0:02:19you establish schools, education facilities,
0:02:19 > 0:02:20dialogue centres and charities.
0:02:20 > 0:02:22So dialogue between whom?
0:02:22 > 0:02:31Because I know that he espouses capitalist beliefs, and dialogue
0:02:31 > 0:02:32with Western nations, and urges his followers
0:02:32 > 0:02:34to adopt Western style, and yet also is inspired
0:02:34 > 0:02:44by the religion of Islam.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49Well, first of all, dialogue with whom, just itself,
0:02:49 > 0:02:51says dialogue with the other.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53You know, not imposing yourself, but engaging with other.
0:02:53 > 0:03:01And that "other" can be different people.
0:03:01 > 0:03:03In Turkish contexts, a majority-Muslim country,
0:03:03 > 0:03:04it might be religious people.
0:03:04 > 0:03:06But in other places it becomes other people
0:03:06 > 0:03:08you are sharing an environment with, your neighbours.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11So in that case, there is a way Islam actually is not
0:03:11 > 0:03:18against the dialogue.
0:03:18 > 0:03:20It inspires dialogue, it encourages dialogue,
0:03:20 > 0:03:23to engage with it in a good way, good neighbourhood.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26So, in that sense, dialogue is a concept, as far as you can
0:03:26 > 0:03:28remain faithful to your faith, and can present yourself in society.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31OK, but his beliefs, derived from religion,
0:03:35 > 0:03:37have put him on a collision course in the past,
0:03:37 > 0:03:40when he was living in Turkey, and Gulen's influence really
0:03:40 > 0:03:41precedes that of the AK Party.
0:03:41 > 0:03:51So, for example, he was on the run after the 1980 coup in Turkey.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08He Some of the generals thought he might have been involved in that.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10He has had a spell in detention.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13So this is somebody who has got a bit of controversy attached
0:04:13 > 0:04:15to his past, somebody who has made a stand
0:04:15 > 0:04:16against the secularists in Turkey.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19Well, in one way I wouldn't say a stand, but somebody who definitely
0:04:19 > 0:04:22came up with a different idea than what we have, you know, like,
0:04:23 > 0:04:24in majority-Muslim groups.
0:04:24 > 0:04:25For instance, when Ataturk abolished the Arabic alphabet
0:04:26 > 0:04:28and changed education.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30You are going back to the 1930s, with Ataturk.
0:04:30 > 0:04:34And Gulen's response was to reclaim education.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37It goes back to my own life.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40My grandfather didn't want to buy a TV in the house,
0:04:40 > 0:04:45because it was un-Islamic.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47My grandfather's generation had built an adjacent room to watch TV,
0:04:47 > 0:04:53because they had to engage with it.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56It calls people to take part in the media business,
0:04:56 > 0:05:01let's say as a Muslim who gives the news, who takes part.
0:05:01 > 0:05:02OK.
0:05:02 > 0:05:06So as I said, he was arrested, and then he was freed and he went
0:05:06 > 0:05:11to the United States for medical treatment,
0:05:11 > 0:05:14and then he decided to stay in the United States
0:05:14 > 0:05:15from about 1999 to 2000.
0:05:15 > 0:05:20He was an ally of Recep Tayyip Erdogan until about three years ago,
0:05:20 > 0:05:26because they both obviously have parties or movements that
0:05:26 > 0:05:28are derived from religion, but fell out with Recep Tayyip Erdogan over
0:05:28 > 0:05:31a video that purportedly showed Erdogan involved with some kind
0:05:31 > 0:05:39of financial transactions.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42And that was blamed on Gulen, and Mr Erdogan says
0:05:42 > 0:05:47it was manufactured.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50OK, you know, that debate has never gone to court,
0:05:50 > 0:05:58so I won't be able to say what was the real case.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01But I would say this, is Gulen's understanding doesn't put
0:06:01 > 0:06:02politics at the heart of Islamic understanding.
0:06:02 > 0:06:06It says 95% of the religion is about individual life, and 5% may be
0:06:06 > 0:06:07about the restructuring of society.
0:06:07 > 0:06:16In political Islam, it is quite otherwise.
0:06:16 > 0:06:18But after 1997, Erdogan actually changed.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20With a group of people within the political Islamists,
0:06:20 > 0:06:23you know, they left and established the Justice and Development Party,
0:06:23 > 0:06:24which prioritised the fight against democratisation,
0:06:24 > 0:06:34against corruption, and against poverty.
0:06:34 > 0:06:39So that is pretty much the line that Gulen has always defended.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42He found a number of allies, like Kurds, and Gulen as well,
0:06:42 > 0:06:51and along the way they start dropping.
0:06:51 > 0:06:52We don't realise, some dropped earlier.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56That is an offshoot of Shia Islam.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59Here you have two allies, and now they are obviously highly
0:06:59 > 0:07:06critical, to put it mildly, of each other.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08And I put it to you that some observers have noticed,
0:07:08 > 0:07:10for instance Hakan Yavuz from Oxford University,
0:07:10 > 0:07:12that the Gulen movement thinks it should govern,
0:07:12 > 0:07:17as it did a lot of the hard work toppling the secularist movement.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20Is that really what is at the base of the tensions between the two?
0:07:20 > 0:07:24I think there is a lot of tension between the two.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27There is a lot to do with the Gulen movement becoming
0:07:27 > 0:07:28a global phenomenon.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31For instance, if a corruption scandal came about, would you be
0:07:31 > 0:07:38able to still support the government in Turkey,
0:07:38 > 0:07:40although it is corrupted, allegedly, and still maintain a pro-democratic,
0:07:40 > 0:07:48you know, an Islam that you advocate for the rest of the country?
0:07:48 > 0:07:49So you can't actually have two faiths.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53You have to say, OK, let's - maybe they should be cleared out.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55And Erdogan didn't like that, so that became...
0:07:55 > 0:07:57So you are presenting him as encouraging dialogue,
0:07:58 > 0:08:02and so on.
0:08:02 > 0:08:06But I have to put it to you that when, in 2007 and 2008,
0:08:06 > 0:08:13there were investigations into the military in Turkey,
0:08:13 > 0:08:16to see who were the secularists and so on there, Peter Westmacott,
0:08:16 > 0:08:19the former British ambassador to Turkey, said that there was a lot
0:08:19 > 0:08:26of fabricated evidence against military officers.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29And he says it was the followers of Gulen, in the police
0:08:29 > 0:08:36and prosecution, who fabricated that evidence.
0:08:36 > 0:08:38And that shows that you have a duplicity
0:08:38 > 0:08:39amongst his followers.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42I understand, and that is a very nasty thing if that is true.
0:08:42 > 0:08:43The thing is that...
0:08:43 > 0:08:45Why would he say that, the former British
0:08:45 > 0:08:52ambassador to Turkey?
0:08:52 > 0:08:54Well, I do understand that.
0:08:54 > 0:08:55There is that image of Gulen.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57And, like everything that goes wrong since a certain time,
0:08:57 > 0:09:01can sometimes traced back, can be blamed on him.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03Some might even have some credibility to it.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06But it is, you know, highly unlikely for me to believe
0:09:06 > 0:09:08in something before I see, you know, that has been
0:09:08 > 0:09:15taken to court, and said, well, this is done
0:09:15 > 0:09:16because of Fethullah Gulen.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18Alright, so I have to make it clear.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20You are not a spokesman for Gulen, and you have carried
0:09:20 > 0:09:24out extensive research, a PhD, on the teachings of Gulen.
0:09:24 > 0:09:26And obviously, as I said, you run a think-tank
0:09:26 > 0:09:29which is inspired, as your website says, and funded and founded
0:09:29 > 0:09:33by followers of Gulen.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35The Turkish government blames Gulen for the coup.
0:09:35 > 0:09:37A Turkish columnist, Dani Rodrik, not a supporter
0:09:37 > 0:09:41of the AK Party, says the claim that Gulenists must be behind the coup
0:09:41 > 0:09:44is not far-fetched.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47I would say it just shows that the Gulen movement is a very
0:09:47 > 0:09:57convenient scapegoat here.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03No-one really has any evidence.
0:10:03 > 0:10:04There has been 12 days.
0:10:04 > 0:10:12We don't know the general, and his involvement.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14We don't know who actually is the commander-in-chief
0:10:14 > 0:10:15of the coup.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18And then we should investigate who is behind it,
0:10:18 > 0:10:19the CIA or this and that.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22I am not claiming that is, but there are a lot
0:10:22 > 0:10:26of arguments like that.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29So I think jumping before you know who did the coup, jumping that
0:10:29 > 0:10:32who is behind the coup could be the CIA, is just like repeating
0:10:32 > 0:10:34the same arguments of the last three or four years.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37So you are saying it might be the CIA, is that what you
0:10:38 > 0:10:38are saying?
0:10:38 > 0:10:39No, I am not.
0:10:39 > 0:10:44Are you saying it could be Erdogan himself, as some are saying?
0:10:44 > 0:10:51No, I think this is a coup, and it is not a new thing.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53The Turkish military has a tutelage over the government.
0:10:53 > 0:10:55It is like Ataturk handed the Republic over to
0:10:55 > 0:11:02the army's supervision.
0:11:02 > 0:11:04They have always been the custodians of secularism.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06Just quickly on that, Ross Wilson says the idea
0:11:06 > 0:11:09that the CIA or the Americans could be behind this coup
0:11:09 > 0:11:13is preposterous, just to put that out there.
0:11:13 > 0:11:23The thing is, that claim doesn't have any credit.
0:11:23 > 0:11:25You said nobody has managed to get into court yet.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28It is still early days, as you said, from the mid-July coup.
0:11:28 > 0:11:31But there are observers who really know the Turkish scene very well,
0:11:31 > 0:11:33I will give you one example, Harvard Professor Dani Rodrik.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36I mention the fact that he is from a Turkish-Jewish family,
0:11:36 > 0:11:39not a AK Party supporter.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42He says the Gulenists had both the motives and the timing reasons
0:11:42 > 0:11:48to carry out this coup.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51He says that they learned of an impending sweep against them
0:11:51 > 0:11:56by the Turkish government.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59So they decided to move, and I quote, early and quickly,
0:11:59 > 0:12:01and he says this explains why the coup attempt seemed
0:12:01 > 0:12:07rushed and poorly planned.
0:12:07 > 0:12:08So the motives were there, with the Gulenists.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11Well, there are a lot of motives for a lot of people.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14And Dani Rodrik is an economist, and I know he has something
0:12:14 > 0:12:15against the movement.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18But what I know of the movement, for me...
0:12:18 > 0:12:20He's an intellectual with good intellectual credentials.
0:12:20 > 0:12:29You can't rubbish the messenger.
0:12:29 > 0:12:38I am not rubbishing them, I am saying he has his past as well.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40You have to remember, there is an emotional scar.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43In my case, the way I see it, what I have read from Gulen,
0:12:43 > 0:12:45and if I looked into, they exist in 160 countries,
0:12:45 > 0:12:48with their diminished existence in Turkey at the moment,
0:12:48 > 0:12:49it is not quite timely at all.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52If they do such a coup, that would finish the Gulen
0:12:52 > 0:12:53movement as we know it.
0:12:53 > 0:13:00Even to attempt a coup.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02They win it, they lose everything.
0:13:02 > 0:13:03They fail, they still lose everything.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06Not necessarily so.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08It is estimated he has 15-20 million followers worldwide,
0:13:08 > 0:13:11and the Turkish government has said that about 8,000 Turkish officers
0:13:11 > 0:13:13were involved in the coup, which is about 1.5%
0:13:13 > 0:13:16of the Turkish army.
0:13:16 > 0:13:25So, you know, why can that not be the case?
0:13:26 > 0:13:29We know that there have been senior military officers who have made
0:13:29 > 0:13:38confessions to being closet Gulenists.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41I will give you one example, Levent Turkkan, who was an aide
0:13:41 > 0:13:44to the chief of the general staff in Turkey.
0:13:44 > 0:13:46And again, Professor Dani Rodrik says his
0:13:46 > 0:13:51testimony is quite detailed.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53He names names, and it rings true.
0:13:53 > 0:13:58It is not just as a result of being allegedly beaten up.
0:13:58 > 0:13:59I don't understand that.
0:13:59 > 0:14:01But then again, we know that the secular branch
0:14:01 > 0:14:04within the army never liked Gulen.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07So in a failed coup, you can easily blame it on...
0:14:07 > 0:14:08You wouldn't claim it for yourself.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11Whoever did it, it is very convenient at the moment
0:14:11 > 0:14:13to say something.
0:14:13 > 0:14:14You say the secularists didn't like Gulen.
0:14:14 > 0:14:16But Erdogan has his roots in Islam.
0:14:16 > 0:14:24You could say the same about the secularists and the AK Party.
0:14:24 > 0:14:26At the moment there is a convenience.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28Dani Rodrik himself says that as well, and some other scholars,
0:14:28 > 0:14:29who claim otherwise.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32What I am saying is, people who are expert,
0:14:32 > 0:14:35there is a need for clarification.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46What did Fatullah Gulen himself say, in 1999,
0:14:46 > 0:14:49in a sermon to his followers?
0:14:49 > 0:14:51"Move within the arteries of the system, reach
0:14:51 > 0:14:58all the power centres."
0:14:58 > 0:15:02OK, so that is two sentences from a talk which was the backbone
0:15:02 > 0:15:04of the 1999 Gulen trial, which, you know, dragged untill
0:15:04 > 0:15:072007, and then they had to actually let him go -
0:15:07 > 0:15:10he claimed he was not guilty - but they wanted to put a clause...
0:15:10 > 0:15:12But I'm just saying, he said that, "move
0:15:12 > 0:15:18within the arteries of the system."
0:15:18 > 0:15:20Well, just like Churchill said "Fight them on the beaches..."
0:15:20 > 0:15:22It is not quite the same...
0:15:22 > 0:15:24The court decided it was taken out of context, put
0:15:24 > 0:15:26together and doctored.
0:15:26 > 0:15:29You will never see the full...full video itself because maybe it
0:15:29 > 0:15:35explains the context of what he is said.
0:15:35 > 0:15:45The point it's making though, the point I'm making, Ismail Sezgin,
0:15:46 > 0:15:49is that there are a lot of followers of Gulen in state sectors -
0:15:49 > 0:15:52the civil service, the judiciary, the police, and the military -
0:15:52 > 0:15:54and that statement, whatever the court case said,
0:15:54 > 0:15:56it would seem to support that and it is not the only
0:15:57 > 0:15:57evidence I'm giving you.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00For example, a Brigadier-General, a doctor - he's got a PhD -
0:16:00 > 0:16:02from Chathan House, a British-based think tank,
0:16:02 > 0:16:04and also from Boston University, said in the mid-1980s,
0:16:04 > 0:16:07he was one of the key officers who investigated what was going on,
0:16:07 > 0:16:09Gulenist movement infiltration in military in the military academy
0:16:09 > 0:16:12and high schools and he says all the cadets around the table made
0:16:12 > 0:16:16it crystal clear to him that they were all loyal to Gulen.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25And he says, and I quote, "I hav no doubt their loyalty
0:16:25 > 0:16:28was not to the Turkish state or to the chain of command
0:16:28 > 0:16:33of the Turkish military but to Gulen."
0:16:33 > 0:16:35I mean, this is what the government means by a parallel state.
0:16:35 > 0:16:40It is not tolerable, is it?
0:16:40 > 0:16:43Here is the thing, are we talking about some people cannot take part
0:16:43 > 0:16:45in army, military as, you know, like white Turks
0:16:45 > 0:16:48and (INAUDIBLE) discussion?
0:16:49 > 0:16:51So they, as citizens, being part of army or
0:16:51 > 0:16:55bureaucracy is infiltration?
0:16:55 > 0:16:57You know, can we imagine this for England?
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Like 3 milliono f the population - let's say Hindus -
0:17:00 > 0:17:03can't take part in the army, they have to shave their beards
0:17:03 > 0:17:06and look like white...
0:17:06 > 0:17:08Yeah, but if they serve in the British army they have
0:17:08 > 0:17:11to pledge allegiance to the Queen, the head of state.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13What would not be tolerated is if they said "we actually
0:17:13 > 0:17:15have allegiance..."
0:17:15 > 0:17:16And I agree with that.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19"..Before we have allegiance to the Queen, we actually have this
0:17:19 > 0:17:20loyalty to this other person."
0:17:20 > 0:17:24No country would tolerate that.
0:17:24 > 0:17:25And nobody expects that toleration.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27We just want an investigation.
0:17:27 > 0:17:34Is it really those people who did this?
0:17:34 > 0:17:36In that case, as Gulen said, they need to be punished.
0:17:36 > 0:17:43But I have to say that 2000 schools are closed down.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45These are like 80% of the top schools in Turkey.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48There is a statistical inevitability that some of the graduates
0:17:48 > 0:17:51will be in high circles.
0:17:51 > 0:17:53Like, you know, Oxford and Cambridge graduates almost...
0:17:53 > 0:17:59How many percent of the government?
0:17:59 > 0:18:02It is not existance of a certain person who believes in a certain
0:18:02 > 0:18:04ideology is not the problem, but them committing
0:18:04 > 0:18:07the crime is a problem...
0:18:07 > 0:18:10If they have loyalty to somebody other than the Turkish state
0:18:10 > 0:18:19and they are serving in state institutions that is the accusation.
0:18:19 > 0:18:20I do not think loyalty...
0:18:20 > 0:18:21If it results in a coup.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24If it results in a coup.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27If Gulenists did this coup, nobody is defending them
0:18:27 > 0:18:30but what I am going against - I have heard a lot of accusations
0:18:30 > 0:18:32and I don't think that we should jump to conclusions
0:18:32 > 0:18:33that it was Gulenists.
0:18:33 > 0:18:41We just wait for the investigation.
0:18:41 > 0:18:43One of the deputy prime ministers of Turkey,
0:18:43 > 0:18:46Mehmet Simsek, said on HARDtalk that even before the coup,
0:18:46 > 0:18:48the government was carrying out its investigations to see
0:18:48 > 0:18:56who had infiltrated what state sector and he says now,
0:18:56 > 0:18:58after the coup, that the vast majority of those arrested
0:18:58 > 0:19:00in the government crackdown, have either been caught red-handed,
0:19:00 > 0:19:05because they were arrested while the coup was going on,
0:19:05 > 0:19:08or because their names appeared on the list of jobs for key
0:19:08 > 0:19:10positions that they would occupy after the coup.
0:19:10 > 0:19:20So he is basing those comments on that.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25I know some of the army generals who actually resisted the coup
0:19:25 > 0:19:28and helped to stop it, also detained as well.
0:19:28 > 0:19:36There might be a reason for that as well.
0:19:36 > 0:19:38My understanding is, yes, actually, classifying
0:19:38 > 0:19:40of Gulenists did not start even in 2013, we know
0:19:40 > 0:19:42the National Security Committee were actually deciding in 2004
0:19:42 > 0:19:47to keep an eye on citizens who are practising or who are not.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49There is an undemocratic thing going on already.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52So now, if you want to nail it to your political opponents
0:19:52 > 0:19:54and claim everybody that 60,000 people are Gulenists,
0:19:54 > 0:19:56and get rid of all positions like Kurdish teaching institutions
0:19:56 > 0:20:00and this and that, that is a bit like, you know, a smokescreen,
0:20:00 > 0:20:04what you are trying to do.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07You are using it as a scapegoat although, I have to remind you that
0:20:07 > 0:20:09when the coup was carried out, even the pro-Kurdosh
0:20:09 > 0:20:11political alliance, the HDP, threw its weight behind Mr Erdogan,
0:20:12 > 0:20:16and says we don't support this.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18The CHP, the country's largest opposition party.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20This was not about making a stand to support President Erdogan,
0:20:20 > 0:20:23they saw it as a stand in support of democracy - the AK
0:20:23 > 0:20:28party won legitimately the elections in the country.
0:20:28 > 0:20:30Anybody who understands Gulen's teachings has
0:20:30 > 0:20:39opposed the coup as well.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42Gulenists are not on the other side of the fence in this matter.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45And they said, no matter how corrupt a government is, this
0:20:45 > 0:20:46is not the way...
0:20:46 > 0:20:48I have to say, he has made a personal statement,
0:20:48 > 0:20:52Fatullah Gulen, condemning the coup and denying involvement.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54The problem some of the media, we think every official
0:20:54 > 0:20:57is like a British official held accountable for their words.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00For three years, an expert on the field, I watched Erdogan say
0:21:00 > 0:21:02that I demanded from Obama, from America,
0:21:02 > 0:21:03for Fatullah Gulen to be extradited.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05Until CNN actually questioned have you
0:21:05 > 0:21:09actually formally put...
0:21:09 > 0:21:10They have now.
0:21:10 > 0:21:11They have extradited.
0:21:11 > 0:21:18Binadi Yildirim says that he's heartbroken.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20He told the Wall Street journal that he would be heartbroken
0:21:21 > 0:21:28if the US do not extradite him.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31But the perception is that if you keep telling the Turkish
0:21:31 > 0:21:34public in the time of elections that we are asking and they are not
0:21:34 > 0:21:36giving, that is factually incorrect but it creates the perception
0:21:36 > 0:21:38that there is America is behind...
0:21:38 > 0:21:39(CROSSTALK).
0:21:39 > 0:21:42And that is like not a legal thing any more but it is
0:21:42 > 0:21:43politicising a legal process.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46I said Fatullah Gulen said he wasn't involved and condemned the coup
0:21:46 > 0:21:49but he also said in his statement, talked about the government
0:21:49 > 0:21:50in Turkey shift towards a dictatorship which is
0:21:50 > 0:21:51polarising the population.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54Are they the words of somebody who wants to calm the situation
0:21:54 > 0:21:58in Turkey after the coup?
0:21:58 > 0:22:01If you are not really concentrating on Erdogan's political carry
0:22:01 > 0:22:04and look at where Turkey was about a month ago and where
0:22:04 > 0:22:07it is going to be a month from now, you wouold be really
0:22:07 > 0:22:09worried about democracy.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11At the moment what matters is we need to save democracy
0:22:11 > 0:22:14and democracy is not only about rejecting the coup, it is also
0:22:14 > 0:22:20about protecting minority rights...
0:22:20 > 0:22:23It is also about finding who was responsible about killing
0:22:23 > 0:22:24173 civilians, including one 16-year-old boy shot.
0:22:24 > 0:22:32All those families...
0:22:32 > 0:22:33Very tragic.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36..in Turkey now that have no father, because it was mostly
0:22:36 > 0:22:37men who were killed.
0:22:37 > 0:22:41The government has got to find out.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43And analysts said that the purge is legitimate, there does have to be
0:22:43 > 0:22:51an aggressive response to find out who was involved in this coup.
0:22:51 > 0:22:52I do agree.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54We have to find who is involved.
0:22:54 > 0:22:55It is very tragic.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59We have to really put all our weight at the back but if we are talking
0:22:59 > 0:23:02a government getting rid of - like Theresa May getting rid of 2700
0:23:02 > 0:23:09judges who will make the investigation,
0:23:09 > 0:23:11and from the first minute, before even the coup ends,
0:23:11 > 0:23:13starts claiming this person is responsible...
0:23:13 > 0:23:14They are investigating.
0:23:14 > 0:23:15How the replaced judges will be objective.
0:23:15 > 0:23:20The government says the due process of law will be looked at and so on.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23Turkish novelist Elif Safak says people of varied backgrounds -
0:23:23 > 0:23:24kemalis, Kurds, liberal, nationalists, conservatives -
0:23:24 > 0:23:26stood shoulder to shoulder in resistance to the plotters,
0:23:26 > 0:23:31for the first time in years Turkish society felt united.
0:23:31 > 0:23:39This could actually lead to greater national unity in Turkey.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41That is my first point when I realised the coup
0:23:41 > 0:23:44is going down I said this might be the end of military
0:23:44 > 0:23:49tutelage in Turkey.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51That is one of the greatest siogns that people of Turkey
0:23:51 > 0:23:52have embraced democracy.
0:23:52 > 0:24:00It wasn't the case 10 years ago.
0:24:00 > 0:24:02It will not be authoritarianism that is the result?
0:24:02 > 0:24:05I hope not but at the moment there is a state of emergency.
0:24:05 > 0:24:08I hope the people who are responsible are brought to justice
0:24:08 > 0:24:09and punished accordingly.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11Ismail Sezgin, thank you very much indeed for coming
0:24:11 > 0:24:12on HARDtalk.
0:24:12 > 0:24:13You're welcome.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15Thank you.