0:00:01 > 0:00:01said it was up to individual federations to decide. And
0:00:01 > 0:00:02said it was up to individual federations to decide. And now
0:00:02 > 0:00:02said it was up to individual federations to decide. And now on
0:00:02 > 0:00:03federations to decide. And now on UBC
0:00:03 > 0:00:05federations to decide. And now on UBC News,
0:00:05 > 0:00:08federations to decide. And now on UBC News, HARDtalk.
0:00:12 > 0:00:14Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17My guest is Sabrina de Sousa, an ex-CIA spy who faces extradition
0:00:17 > 0:00:20from Portugal to Italy to serve a prison sentence for her alleged
0:00:20 > 0:00:24role 13 years ago in the CIA extraordinary rendition case
0:00:24 > 0:00:27when an Egyptian terror suspect was seized in Milan.
0:00:27 > 0:00:29She denies involvement.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32Last year she visited Portugal, against official advice, and was
0:00:32 > 0:00:35detained by the authorities there.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39Has she been abandoned by the CIA, or is she the agent
0:00:39 > 0:00:42of her own misfortune?
0:01:08 > 0:01:11Sabrina de Sousa in Lisbon, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14So you, along with more than 20 American officials,
0:01:14 > 0:01:19were found guilty in absentia in Italy because of your alleged
0:01:19 > 0:01:24involvement in this particular extraordinary rendition case.
0:01:24 > 0:01:30What exactly was your involvement?
0:01:30 > 0:01:31Thank you, Zeinab.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33I've been fighting the charges against me
0:01:33 > 0:01:38for the last several years.
0:01:38 > 0:01:45I've been consistent in my message that I'd like to clear my name.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48So the charges against me actually have no evidence, and as you know
0:01:48 > 0:01:50the entire trial took place in absentia.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52We were not served or informed of the
0:01:52 > 0:01:53charges against us.
0:01:53 > 0:01:54So...
0:01:54 > 0:01:57So you are denying any involvement whatsoever in this extraordinary
0:01:57 > 0:01:59rendition case involving the Egyptian cleric
0:01:59 > 0:02:03known as Abu Omar?
0:02:03 > 0:02:07That is exactly correct.
0:02:07 > 0:02:11But on what basis can you say that when the Italian
0:02:11 > 0:02:14courts have found you, along with more than 20,
0:02:14 > 0:02:16guilty for his abduction off the streets in Milan,
0:02:16 > 0:02:28and the Italian judiciary is an independent one?
0:02:28 > 0:02:31They must have their reasons for thinking you guilty?
0:02:31 > 0:02:34Well, that goes back to what I had said a little earlier,
0:02:34 > 0:02:37that this was a trial in absentia, we were not present there to defend
0:02:37 > 0:02:40ourselves against the charges, you see.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44This was this was 26 empty defence chairs.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46We weren't allowed to present any evidence.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50The evidence was covered by state secret in the US, and state secrets
0:02:50 > 0:02:57in Italy, so I have never really had a chance to do that,
0:02:57 > 0:02:58to counter the charges against me.
0:02:58 > 0:03:02If you look at what my attorney has presented to the office
0:03:02 > 0:03:05of the president as well, for the only option available to me
0:03:05 > 0:03:09right now, which is the pardon process, he clearly lays out each
0:03:09 > 0:03:12of the charges and how there is no evidence for any of them.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16When the abduction took place itself, on the 17th of February,
0:03:16 > 0:03:20I was nowhere near Milan to begin with so there was no
0:03:20 > 0:03:26direct involvement either in the kidnapping of Abu Omar.
0:03:26 > 0:03:31But could you not have been involved in the planning?
0:03:31 > 0:03:35That is also one of the charges against me, and I deny that as well
0:03:35 > 0:03:39because the planning all took place in Rome.
0:03:39 > 0:03:43So here's what happened initially - 9/11 took place and the US,
0:03:43 > 0:03:48under President Bush, ramped up the rendition programme.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51All the chiefs of station around the world were asked to dial up
0:03:51 > 0:03:56with their foreign counterparts - in this case in Italy,
0:03:56 > 0:03:59the Italian intelligence service - to find out if there was any way
0:03:59 > 0:04:05to work jointly in the rendition of targets deemed to be of high
0:04:05 > 0:04:09value or who posed an imminent threat.
0:04:09 > 0:04:13So the Rome station chief, Jeffrey Castelli, talked
0:04:13 > 0:04:16to his counterpart General Pollari at the Italian intelligence,
0:04:16 > 0:04:19to find out if this was a possibility,
0:04:19 > 0:04:23and that they would work jointly with us on this.
0:04:23 > 0:04:28Italian SISMI officials met with the CIA counterparts.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31Since I was the only one who spoke both Italian and English,
0:04:31 > 0:04:35in January of 2002 I facilitated the translation between both teams
0:04:35 > 0:04:40to talk about the logistics of this possibility,
0:04:40 > 0:04:44and after that I pretty much had no role in that, because the entire
0:04:44 > 0:04:49operation was run out of Rome.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52You must have known, as an employee of the CIA,
0:04:52 > 0:04:56based in Italy, that this was the kind of thing that you had
0:04:56 > 0:04:57signed up for?
0:04:57 > 0:05:00No, this is absolutely not true.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02I signed up before 9/11, and you have to remember
0:05:02 > 0:05:06that the rendition, detention and interrogation programme,
0:05:06 > 0:05:09which have started under Regan and sort of ramped up a little more
0:05:09 > 0:05:11under President Clinton, actually took full form and really
0:05:11 > 0:05:15ramped up after 9/11 under President Bush,
0:05:15 > 0:05:22but it was highly compartmented, very few people knew about it,
0:05:22 > 0:05:28and my only knowledge of it started when it was presented
0:05:28 > 0:05:31to the Italian intelligence organisation.
0:05:31 > 0:05:35Also it is a rendition, detention and interrogation programme,
0:05:35 > 0:05:40so it is not possible for one officer to know all three parts
0:05:40 > 0:05:43of it, because all three parts of it are completely compartmented
0:05:43 > 0:05:44from each other...
0:05:44 > 0:05:45Are you saying...
0:05:45 > 0:05:48So I knew about the rendition bit and also, sorry, not
0:05:48 > 0:05:51the entire programme, except the part where I translated
0:05:51 > 0:05:55between the Italian intelligence and the group that came
0:05:55 > 0:05:59from Washington to find out about the logistics for it.
0:05:59 > 0:06:04But are you saying, Sabrina de Sousa, that you had no idea that
0:06:04 > 0:06:12Abu Omar was going to be abducted in 2003?
0:06:12 > 0:06:17You had no knowledge whatsoever that that was in the offing?
0:06:17 > 0:06:21Oh, no, I knew that was in the offing, definitely,
0:06:21 > 0:06:24and what we were told very specifically, which turned out not
0:06:24 > 0:06:28to be the case, at the time was that there was a dangerous
0:06:28 > 0:06:32cleric who posed an imminent danger, that the Italians were doing nothing
0:06:32 > 0:06:36about it and he needed to be taken off the streets in Milan,
0:06:36 > 0:06:39and that was what was presented as justification
0:06:39 > 0:06:40to CIA headquarters.
0:06:40 > 0:06:46That of course turned out not to be the case,
0:06:46 > 0:06:48because once he was rendered to Egypt, the Egyptians
0:06:48 > 0:06:51released him after a year for lack of prosecutable
0:06:51 > 0:06:53evidence against him.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56So that was the narrative that everyone was told,
0:06:56 > 0:07:00including the Italians who had to approve this rendition
0:07:00 > 0:07:03because Italy is a Nato country.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07But you say, and you are right, yes - I mean he claims he was tortured,
0:07:07 > 0:07:09electrocuted and so on when he went back,
0:07:09 > 0:07:12but then he was subsequently released by the Egyptians -
0:07:12 > 0:07:17however an Italian court has sentenced Abu Omar to six years
0:07:17 > 0:07:20in prison for "Criminal association for the purposes
0:07:20 > 0:07:23of international terrorism."
0:07:23 > 0:07:26So Egypt may think he has nothing to answer for,
0:07:26 > 0:07:29but Italy thinks he does.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32And he was tried in absentia, so was he able to defend these
0:07:32 > 0:07:34charges against him?
0:07:34 > 0:07:37Yes, but I was just making the counterpoint to you -
0:07:37 > 0:07:41you said that this was a man who shouldn't have been the victim
0:07:41 > 0:07:44of extraordinary rendition because he was released
0:07:44 > 0:07:47by the Egyptian authorities, and I am simply putting it
0:07:47 > 0:07:49to you that actually he was found guilty in absentia by
0:07:49 > 0:07:51an Italian court for criminal association for the purposes
0:07:51 > 0:07:52of international terrorism.
0:07:52 > 0:07:53So, I mean...
0:07:53 > 0:07:58Right, but, sorry, that didn't fit the threshold for him to be
0:07:58 > 0:08:03rendered, you see.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06He was already under investigation by the Italian police and they had
0:08:06 > 0:08:08dropped the investigation of him, according to Italian court
0:08:08 > 0:08:10documents, in January of 2003 a couple of months
0:08:10 > 0:08:12before the rendition, so they didn't consider him
0:08:12 > 0:08:14an imminent danger.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18All right, we are not going to try Abu Omar here again
0:08:18 > 0:08:24but I want to ask you, because in 2003 when all this
0:08:24 > 0:08:30happened, and as you know the climate changed very much
0:08:30 > 0:08:32after September the 11th, because you're making your
0:08:32 > 0:08:34opposition to rendition very clear now, but why didn't you perhaps
0:08:34 > 0:08:37resign from the CIA earlier?
0:08:37 > 0:08:40I'll just give you one example of what was being said by the Bush
0:08:40 > 0:08:41administration at the time.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44The vice president Dick Cheney said, five days after the September 11th
0:08:44 > 0:08:48attacks, that the government would need to "work through the dark side.
0:08:48 > 0:08:52It is going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposal
0:08:52 > 0:08:53basically to achieve our objectives.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57A lot of what needs to be done needs to be done quietly."
0:08:57 > 0:09:01That was the administration that you were serving in the CIA?
0:09:01 > 0:09:03Correct.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07But again we did not have all the facts with us.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09And especially for someone like myself who was a junior officer
0:09:09 > 0:09:12in Milan, all I was told, and again we were working
0:09:12 > 0:09:16side-by-side with the Italians on counterterrorism operations,
0:09:16 > 0:09:20and all we were told at the time, which turned out not to be the case,
0:09:20 > 0:09:22was Abu Omar was a dangerous terrorist.
0:09:22 > 0:09:26Are you saying that you oppose the rendition programmes,
0:09:26 > 0:09:28which of course are highly controversial, and many countries
0:09:28 > 0:09:31in the West and, you know, in the wider world say
0:09:31 > 0:09:36that they are not an acceptable way of fighting the war on terror?
0:09:36 > 0:09:40I mean, it is basically when a terror suspect is abducted
0:09:40 > 0:09:43and taken to a third country where they may not enjoy,
0:09:43 > 0:09:47well, they won't enjoy the kind of protections and human rights that
0:09:47 > 0:09:52America might generally be considered to give its own citizens.
0:09:52 > 0:09:59So I mean you are very opposed to these rendition programmes?
0:09:59 > 0:10:02I definitely got opposed to them as the years went by,
0:10:02 > 0:10:07and I saw that the narrative of "These are essential tools that
0:10:07 > 0:10:11save lives and they are very useful" turned out not to be
0:10:11 > 0:10:12the case, you see.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16Because being on the inside, you are in a bubble,
0:10:16 > 0:10:22and this happened for years after I left Milan and, you know,
0:10:22 > 0:10:25if you are told, "OK, this is what it is," and you don't
0:10:25 > 0:10:30see the metrics to prove that they are as useful as some
0:10:30 > 0:10:33officers say they are, then you leave -
0:10:33 > 0:10:38and I left in 2009 - and it really didn't make a lot
0:10:38 > 0:10:42of sense to see that when you weigh the cost of the damages done
0:10:42 > 0:10:47to the image of the United States, and there has been no due process
0:10:47 > 0:10:50to all those who have been rendered and are now sitting in Guantanamo,
0:10:50 > 0:10:55in a programme where you catch them, they get tortured, then you release
0:10:55 > 0:10:57them now without due process - it just has been totally
0:10:58 > 0:11:01counter-productive for us.
0:11:01 > 0:11:02But you have written recently...
0:11:02 > 0:11:04So this was the only recent rendition.
0:11:04 > 0:11:05Go ahead.
0:11:05 > 0:11:10You have written recently to Pope Francis and you said,
0:11:10 > 0:11:13"Your Holiness, you have spoken decisively about rendition,
0:11:13 > 0:11:17detention, and interrogation programmes.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20We need your voice now more than ever to keep this issue
0:11:20 > 0:11:22at the forefront for much-needed discourse in the court
0:11:22 > 0:11:23of public opinion."
0:11:23 > 0:11:25But the Obama administration does not support extraordinary
0:11:25 > 0:11:27rendition programmes, nor does he support the enhanced
0:11:27 > 0:11:28interrogation techniques that led to the waterboarding
0:11:29 > 0:11:31which received so much attention.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35So what kind of public debate do you want now?
0:11:35 > 0:11:39This has all been condemned by the current administration.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42It has been condemned by the current administration,
0:11:42 > 0:11:45but again we have presidential candidates who say they will
0:11:45 > 0:11:48bring it back, you see?
0:11:48 > 0:11:51As in Donald Trump.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54Yeah, so what's the public opinion and debate that you want?
0:11:54 > 0:11:57You want to say, "America, never revert to using these techniques
0:11:57 > 0:12:01in the war against terror"?
0:12:01 > 0:12:03I think the public debate has to be when there's more information
0:12:03 > 0:12:06and more transparency about the programmes.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08That's what the Senate Torture Report is all about,
0:12:08 > 0:12:12and that is what they are fighting to do, to release parts of it
0:12:12 > 0:12:14so we can have this debate.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16The other issue I think for everybody is the lack
0:12:16 > 0:12:19of accountability that continues to dog the US administration,
0:12:19 > 0:12:25because no one has ever been held accountable in the United States.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29Now there are cases that have been opened for example in Berlin,
0:12:29 > 0:12:34focusing on specific officials who had made a decision,
0:12:34 > 0:12:38for example in the Khalid El-Masri case, that rendition.
0:12:38 > 0:12:43All the cases that were brought on his behalf were dismissed
0:12:43 > 0:12:45because of state secrets.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49Finally now the European Centre for Constitutional and Human Rights has
0:12:49 > 0:12:51brought a case against a specific individual,
0:12:51 > 0:12:54so we have to have some accountability and we have
0:12:54 > 0:13:00to examine what has been done so that the public knows
0:13:00 > 0:13:03the same ones who want...
0:13:03 > 0:13:07We have had a lot of reports and investigations.
0:13:07 > 0:13:16I mean, notably in 2014 the Senate Intelligence Committee
0:13:16 > 0:13:19report on CIA torture brought in by the Democrats condemned
0:13:19 > 0:13:22all these kind of things going on.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24You make it sound as though these things are going
0:13:24 > 0:13:26on unchallenged and that, you know, nobody says
0:13:26 > 0:13:29they are a very distasteful way of conducting affairs.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32So I'm just really struggling to see what more you feel your voice
0:13:33 > 0:13:38is bringing to this debate?
0:13:38 > 0:13:41I think the issue of state secrets and that they impede
0:13:41 > 0:13:48real investigations.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50There are numerous investigations that still need to take place.
0:13:50 > 0:13:54I am looking at my own Abu Omar case, where I believe there has
0:13:54 > 0:13:56to be real investigations into this, because there has been no
0:13:56 > 0:13:58accountability for those who provided the justification
0:13:58 > 0:14:00for this ill-conceived and unnecessary rendition,
0:14:00 > 0:14:01or those who authorised it.
0:14:01 > 0:14:04That's what I'm talking about.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07Just looking at your own predicament now, because there you are,
0:14:07 > 0:14:09I am talking to you in Lisbon, the capital of Portugal,
0:14:09 > 0:14:11and you travelled there, against official advice
0:14:11 > 0:14:15from the United States.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18The CIA and the State Department advised you not to travel outside
0:14:18 > 0:14:21the US when the case was proceeding in Italy in 2009 and then
0:14:21 > 0:14:24when the Italians issued the arrest warrant for you,
0:14:24 > 0:14:26which by the way has been upheld, hasn't it?
0:14:26 > 0:14:28You were told not to leave the United States.
0:14:28 > 0:14:34Why didn't you comply?
0:14:34 > 0:14:38So I left the United States...
0:14:38 > 0:14:41Number one, I had to resign, so I couldn't
0:14:41 > 0:14:44leave the United States, except for coming to Europe.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46Because you see most of my family live abroad -
0:14:46 > 0:14:47they live in Europe.
0:14:47 > 0:14:52My mother lives in India, and everywhere else in the world.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55What happened was in 2014 I found out that I was excluded
0:14:55 > 0:14:58from the list of pardons that was sent over to the Italian
0:14:58 > 0:14:59president's office.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02That meant I would never ever be able to visit my family in Portugal.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05I was born a Portuguese citizen - most of my family
0:15:05 > 0:15:10is over here as well.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13And I just decided this needed to be dealt with head-on and, yes,
0:15:13 > 0:15:16I took the risk to do this and it is just something that needs
0:15:16 > 0:15:21to be done, because this is where the accountability comes in.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24I'm being held accountable for decisions made by others,
0:15:24 > 0:15:26for which I had absolutely no control over or input
0:15:26 > 0:15:31into, this rendition.
0:15:31 > 0:15:35You say that you had to travel to see your family,
0:15:35 > 0:15:38but why do you think when you asked for your family members,
0:15:38 > 0:15:41your mother in particular, to be allowed to come
0:15:41 > 0:15:44to the United States to see you, why was that not approved?
0:15:44 > 0:15:46She wasn't given a visa.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49You also wanted her funding covered.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51Well, it was funding covered because she needed to be escorted
0:15:51 > 0:15:54firstly to Bombay to get her visa back again,
0:15:54 > 0:15:57to the States and back again, and I had asked in July
0:15:57 > 0:16:00for her to come for Christmas, and in January the following year
0:16:00 > 0:16:02they refused saying they didn't want to set a precedent
0:16:02 > 0:16:09for funding her to come to the US.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12But is it not the fact, Sabrina de Sousa, that
0:16:12 > 0:16:15as Paul McGrath from the University of Birmingham here in England says,
0:16:15 > 0:16:17the fact that you effectively wanted to force Washington's hand
0:16:17 > 0:16:20by travelling to Europe to clear your name, you're
0:16:20 > 0:16:21kind of upping the ante?
0:16:21 > 0:16:24It might be seen by the US authorities as a deliberate
0:16:24 > 0:16:29provocation on your part?
0:16:29 > 0:16:36Possibly, but again being left off the pardons and being punished for
0:16:36 > 0:16:41speaking out all these years again wasn't something that I felt I
0:16:41 > 0:16:44should have to put up with for the rest of my life,
0:16:44 > 0:16:47because this meant the rest of my life - being excluded
0:16:47 > 0:16:49from the pardon meant I would never get a pardon,
0:16:49 > 0:16:52and the arrest warrant would remain in effect, and I would
0:16:52 > 0:16:54never see this part of my family again.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57When you asked why you weren't given a pardon, what was the
0:16:57 > 0:17:01answer that you were given?
0:17:01 > 0:17:02No, I found out about it.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05My attorney in Italy sent me a note in 2014 saying,
0:17:05 > 0:17:08by the way, do you know that the US has asked
0:17:08 > 0:17:09for pardons for a group of
0:17:09 > 0:17:11officers and you've been excluded from that list?
0:17:11 > 0:17:13Do you know anything about it?
0:17:13 > 0:17:16And I said no, then I made that a matter of record
0:17:16 > 0:17:17by writing a letter
0:17:17 > 0:17:24to the law firm in Italy handling the pardons.
0:17:24 > 0:17:28So there's no explanation for why I was left off
0:17:28 > 0:17:31the pardons, but again to me, with family all over
0:17:31 > 0:17:33Europe and in India, it was really important that this
0:17:33 > 0:17:37issue gets resolved.
0:17:37 > 0:17:39You have to remember, too, that we were told
0:17:39 > 0:17:42in 2008 before the trial ended that we were going to get
0:17:42 > 0:17:45convicted, and that all of us would immediately get the pardon right
0:17:45 > 0:17:45after that.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47Sure.
0:17:47 > 0:17:492013 came, one officer got a pardon.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52So my attorney went to the office of the
0:17:52 > 0:17:53president to ask why, when someone with worse
0:17:53 > 0:17:54charges against him was
0:17:54 > 0:17:58given a pardon and I was not, what was going on with it, and they
0:17:58 > 0:18:04hadn't even looked at my file, which is exactly...
0:18:04 > 0:18:08The pardon that is sponsored by the US, and that is
0:18:08 > 0:18:11what I need to find out, whether this option is available
0:18:11 > 0:18:19to me any more or not.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21Do you think perhaps that you're seen as somebody
0:18:21 > 0:18:23who shouldn't really be addressing these kinds of issues
0:18:23 > 0:18:25in the public domain, because you say, you know,
0:18:25 > 0:18:28you want to clear your name, you want evidence to come out,
0:18:28 > 0:18:31but you know that a lot of the evidence pertaining to this
0:18:31 > 0:18:33case is going to come under national security,
0:18:33 > 0:18:36and it can't be divulged, therefore, and I put
0:18:36 > 0:18:38to you what Scott Lucas from Birmingham University in the UK
0:18:38 > 0:18:41said of your case and the others who were convicted:
0:18:41 > 0:18:43"I know of no other case in the CIA's history
0:18:43 > 0:18:53where officers were convicted by court in allied country.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56Previous cases of CIA excesses on foreign soil would generally be
0:18:56 > 0:18:58handled by discreet contacts between diplomatic services."
0:18:58 > 0:19:05That's exactly right.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08I mean, wouldn't it be better for you to do
0:19:08 > 0:19:10battle behind-the-scenes, precisely for the reason that has
0:19:10 > 0:19:11been laid out there?
0:19:11 > 0:19:17I have spent about eight years I would say doing exactly
0:19:17 > 0:19:19that, I exhausted every internal option in the CIA.
0:19:19 > 0:19:30Finally, by law, since I had exhausted all
0:19:30 > 0:19:33the options in the CIA, I went to the Congress
0:19:33 > 0:19:34of the United States.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36I had numerous letters written to the
0:19:36 > 0:19:38Congress of the United States, Senators who chaired the
0:19:38 > 0:19:39intelligence committees, asking them to please
0:19:39 > 0:19:40intercede in this case.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42Primarily this was initially because I was worried
0:19:42 > 0:19:45about my family and the ability to see my parents.
0:19:45 > 0:19:47I worked this all the way till I finally
0:19:47 > 0:19:51decided that it had to be a matter, it had to get into the public
0:19:51 > 0:19:51domain.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54You have to remember that this case did not have to take
0:19:54 > 0:19:54place.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57This was done just because of one person's ambition - literally.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59This was an individual, Abu Omar, who had not
0:19:59 > 0:20:02even come to the attention of anyone in the rendition
0:20:02 > 0:20:03unit in the CIA, and
0:20:03 > 0:20:06they just wondered why he was being rendered in the first place.
0:20:06 > 0:20:13So I did everything I could.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15I did every single thing I could quietly.
0:20:15 > 0:20:17I even offered to resign quietly if they
0:20:17 > 0:20:20gave me my pension and I would go off and, you know, hope that they
0:20:20 > 0:20:22proceeded with the pardon like they had promised.
0:20:22 > 0:20:24But essentially you became a whistle-blower, didn't you?
0:20:24 > 0:20:27Essentially that's what you are no.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31Well, I really don't like to call myself a whistle-blower because I'm
0:20:31 > 0:20:34not blowing the whistle on the entire programme since I'm not...
0:20:34 > 0:20:36I just can't speak about it, because I
0:20:36 > 0:20:38was not part of that programme.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40But what I am doing is defending myself
0:20:40 > 0:20:41against the charges against me, and again
0:20:41 > 0:20:43when you talked about, you
0:20:43 > 0:20:45know, your charges would require state secrets - mine don't.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47My attorney Dario Bolognesi has made an excellent point
0:20:47 > 0:20:50on each of those charges against me, and they really don't require
0:20:50 > 0:20:56divulging state secrets to counter them.
0:20:56 > 0:21:01But now, here you are in Portugal.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05As I said, you decided to travel there despite the fact
0:21:05 > 0:21:07that there was a Europol arrest warrant out for you,
0:21:07 > 0:21:11so you knew that you would be detained by the authorities -
0:21:11 > 0:21:17do you think now that the Portuguese will extradite you to Italy?
0:21:17 > 0:21:24I don't know what's going to happen right now because the extradition
0:21:24 > 0:21:28process seems to have stopped.
0:21:28 > 0:21:32Also you need to know that I came here in May of last year
0:21:32 > 0:21:35and for all the way until October no one asked for my extradition.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37My attorney from Italy came to visit me in Portugal,
0:21:37 > 0:21:39dialogue with the president's office in Italy.
0:21:39 > 0:21:47They knew I was over here and no one asked for the extradition.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50When I decided to go see my mother again and leave Portugal,
0:21:50 > 0:21:52that was when the Schengen information system kicked in,
0:21:52 > 0:21:54and that is when I was detained.
0:21:54 > 0:21:55So again I understand that...
0:21:55 > 0:22:00So you won't be extradited?
0:22:00 > 0:22:03Because we are all saying you are the ex-CIA spy
0:22:03 > 0:22:06who is going to go to Italy and spend four years in prison,
0:22:06 > 0:22:09but your own legal representative in Portugal, Manuel Magalhaes e
0:22:09 > 0:22:12Silva, says Italy does not want extradition to go ahead.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14They're trying to get the Portuguese courts to stop the extradition.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17He says the Italian government won't want to see the level
0:22:17 > 0:22:19of cooperation between them and the United States exposed.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22So you're not going to end up going to Italy, are you?
0:22:22 > 0:22:24Well, OK, here is the other thing...
0:22:24 > 0:22:25Briefly, if you would?
0:22:25 > 0:22:32I volunteered to go to Italy.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35OK, I volunteered to go to Italy when I first got to Portugal.
0:22:35 > 0:22:37I said, I'll go there, I'll meet with the officers
0:22:37 > 0:22:41in charge of the pardon and we'll talk about these charges against me,
0:22:41 > 0:22:43and we can take care of it, sort it all out.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45I had volunteered to do that.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47There is no need for this long extradition process.
0:22:47 > 0:22:57In the meantime, it just keeps cropping up in the news.
0:22:57 > 0:22:59All right, so do you feel that you've been abandoned
0:22:59 > 0:23:00by the US authorities?
0:23:00 > 0:23:03Oh, I absolutely have been abandoned, and again this is not
0:23:03 > 0:23:06something that should happen to federal employees at my level
0:23:06 > 0:23:08for decisions made much higher up and where there has been
0:23:08 > 0:23:13no accountability whatsoever.
0:23:13 > 0:23:18This is a classic case of totally being...
0:23:18 > 0:23:21Literally I've had to fight this on my own, because I have had no
0:23:21 > 0:23:28help from the US to do so.
0:23:28 > 0:23:30And furthermore, then I was excluded from this pardon system,
0:23:30 > 0:23:36at the end of the day.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39Very quickly, are you not also to some extent an agent
0:23:39 > 0:23:40of your own misfortune?
0:23:40 > 0:23:41I don't think so.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43I really would like to see this resolved, and there
0:23:43 > 0:23:46are ways of resolving it, and it should be resolved
0:23:46 > 0:23:48immediately without any further ado because again,
0:23:48 > 0:23:50like I said, the charges against me, they really have no
0:23:50 > 0:23:54evidence to back them up.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56Sabrina de Sousa in Lisbon, thank you very much indeed
0:23:56 > 0:23:57for common on HARDtalk.
0:23:57 > 0:24:06Thank you.
0:24:29 > 0:24:29Hello there.
0:24:29 > 0:24:32As forecast, the weather over the weekend was pretty decent up
0:24:32 > 0:24:33and down the UK.
0:24:33 > 0:24:35We had a lot of dry weather.
0:24:35 > 0:24:37Variable cloud at times, which did produce the odd
0:24:37 > 0:24:38spot of rain.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40But there were plenty of gaps in that cloud,