0:00:00 > 0:00:00the Olympic torch procession. It was the second protest
0:00:00 > 0:00:00the Olympic torch procession. It was the second protest of
0:00:00 > 0:00:01the Olympic torch procession. It was the second protest of the
0:00:01 > 0:00:02the Olympic torch procession. It was the second protest of the day.
0:00:02 > 0:00:03the Olympic torch procession. It was the second protest of the day. It
0:00:03 > 0:00:03the Olympic torch procession. It was the second protest of the day. It is
0:00:03 > 0:00:03the second protest of the day. It is time
0:00:03 > 0:00:05the second protest of the day. It is time for HARDtalk.
0:00:07 > 0:00:10Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:14Not so long ago, international investors here in London saw Nigeria
0:00:14 > 0:00:17as one of the most promising investment opportunities
0:00:17 > 0:00:18in the world.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21Well, things change pretty quickly.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24The slump in the price of oil has hit the Nigerian economy hard.
0:00:24 > 0:00:29The twin curses of insecurity and corruption have not gone away.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33My guest today is one of the so-called super ministers,
0:00:33 > 0:00:37Babatunde Fashola.
0:00:37 > 0:00:47Will Nigeria ever fulfil its potential?
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Babatunde Fashola, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12Thank you for having me.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Let's start by reflecting on where Nigeria is today.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19Just last year you had a democratic transition.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21The world applauded.
0:01:21 > 0:01:26There were very high hopes for the presidency of Mr Buhari.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29Many of those hopes have been dashed.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31Why do you think that is?
0:01:31 > 0:01:32I disagree.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34Hopes have not been dashed.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Change, which was the mandate upon which the president
0:01:38 > 0:01:42was elected, is not an event, it is a process.
0:01:42 > 0:01:51People are beginning to see how that process evolves.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54It is evolving also in an era where there is a global economic
0:01:54 > 0:01:59downturn and there will be local consequences.
0:01:59 > 0:02:04As I have argued, at a time when there was a lot of prosperity,
0:02:04 > 0:02:10there was money to spend, we made some now regrettable choices.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13We didn't spent on investment, particularly on infrastructure.
0:02:13 > 0:02:18Therefore, we consumed all our extraordinary income,
0:02:18 > 0:02:20as I choose to call it.
0:02:20 > 0:02:22Therefore, when there is a global downturn, the consequences will be
0:02:22 > 0:02:26diverse for each nation.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28No nation is immune from what is happening now.
0:02:28 > 0:02:35People who are better able able to weather the storm now are those
0:02:35 > 0:02:37who invested wisely, in educational assets,
0:02:37 > 0:02:41security assets, transportation assets, power generation assets.
0:02:41 > 0:02:45It doesn't make them immune, but they were better withstand it.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48It is like preparing for winter, really.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52At the end of every winter there will be a glorious spring.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55I suppose it depends how fierce and how horrible,
0:02:55 > 0:02:58the winter is before you get to spring.
0:02:58 > 0:03:03Right now, much of the world's attention when it comes to Nigeria
0:03:03 > 0:03:06is fixed on the north-east of your country and the fact that,
0:03:06 > 0:03:10while you, as a minister responsible for building the infrastructure
0:03:10 > 0:03:14for a 21st-century country, you actually, in the north-east
0:03:14 > 0:03:16of your country have at least 2 million people who,
0:03:16 > 0:03:18according to the United Nations,
0:03:18 > 0:03:21are living on the brink of starvation.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24How can that be?
0:03:24 > 0:03:28First of all, again, I have issues with those numbers.
0:03:28 > 0:03:34There are people who are displaced, but the point to make also
0:03:34 > 0:03:37is that there is progress in the north-east.
0:03:37 > 0:03:42The president has fulfilled his mandate to take in control
0:03:42 > 0:03:46of the security challenges of the north-east.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49If you move from a situation of war...
0:03:49 > 0:03:52As far as the world is concerned he hasn't delivered on his promise
0:03:52 > 0:03:56because he very clearly promised to deliver victory over Boko Haram
0:03:56 > 0:04:01by the end of 2015 and here we sit in the summer of 2016
0:04:01 > 0:04:05and there are still clashes, still bomb attacks, still Boko Haram
0:04:05 > 0:04:08atrocities committed against your own civilian population
0:04:08 > 0:04:13long after this war is supposed to be over.
0:04:13 > 0:04:19What you will see today is the emergence of an unconventional
0:04:19 > 0:04:24enemy of the human civilisation evolving on the streets of some
0:04:24 > 0:04:28of the most sophisticated parts of the world, in Europe,
0:04:28 > 0:04:32and leaders are really challenged.
0:04:32 > 0:04:37Now in terms of restoring order to the north-east, I believe
0:04:37 > 0:04:42that the evidence that speaks today of people are beginning to trade
0:04:42 > 0:04:49a keen on the streets, construction going on that I am
0:04:49 > 0:04:58aware of, roads being built, means that water has returned.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00I don't know about order.
0:05:00 > 0:05:04Dealing with...
0:05:04 > 0:05:06The MSF chief in Borno said we are talking about areas
0:05:06 > 0:05:09in which 40% of the children have severe acute malnutrition.
0:05:09 > 0:05:10It is a truly dramatic situation.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13In my whole career, she says, since 1999, I have never seen
0:05:13 > 0:05:15anything like it.
0:05:15 > 0:05:16That is the reality in your country today.
0:05:16 > 0:05:21If you have prolonged war where women and children have been
0:05:21 > 0:05:25displaced by a mindless group of terrorists,
0:05:25 > 0:05:28some of the aftermath of that war will be that it is children
0:05:28 > 0:05:31who are vulnerable, who have malnutrition,
0:05:31 > 0:05:35who will be out of schools, who will have health issues.
0:05:35 > 0:05:39Securing law and order is the first leg to being able to provide
0:05:39 > 0:05:42for those children, to put them back, to relocate families back
0:05:42 > 0:05:48to their home state and to help them get on with their lives.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50That is work in progress.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53Provision of those basic services requires a strategy,
0:05:53 > 0:05:56it requires forward thinking.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58I would put it to you that your government,
0:05:58 > 0:06:01you are the Public Works Minister apart from anything else,
0:06:01 > 0:06:03your government, according to the fiercest critics
0:06:03 > 0:06:08in the country, the chairman of the State Emergency Managing Agency
0:06:08 > 0:06:12until 2015, he now says looking at the north-east of your country,
0:06:12 > 0:06:17this crisis is the result of, quote, total neglect and carelessness
0:06:17 > 0:06:19on the part of the government.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23The result that you see today is the result of the total neglect
0:06:23 > 0:06:27by the government that was in charge that did not frontally address
0:06:27 > 0:06:29the issues since 2010.
0:06:29 > 0:06:33Allowed it to fester, pretended that it didn't exist
0:06:33 > 0:06:39and what you see today is that from a period when these criminals
0:06:39 > 0:06:43took over state apparatuses, police formations, local
0:06:43 > 0:06:47governments, hoisted their flags, they are at a point where
0:06:47 > 0:06:52they are targeting vulnerable citizens and markets and places.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56That is the unconventional nature of the warfare that we are dealing
0:06:56 > 0:06:58with today, an enemy that is ready to die,
0:06:58 > 0:07:01not an enemy that wants to survive.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04You would agree that that enemy is not defeated.
0:07:04 > 0:07:06Despite what Buhari promised.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09The enemy is in retreat.
0:07:09 > 0:07:14It is now targeting very vulnerable people, places where people get
0:07:14 > 0:07:18on with their lives, marketplaces, schools and so on and so forth.
0:07:18 > 0:07:22The agencies I have talked about, The UN, MSF, they say,
0:07:22 > 0:07:26and it is their phrase not mine, that there are millions of people
0:07:26 > 0:07:27on the brink of starvation.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30Can you guarantee to me, as one of the so-called super
0:07:30 > 0:07:33ministers in your government, that those people, including
0:07:33 > 0:07:38hundreds of thousands of children, will not be allowed to starve?
0:07:38 > 0:07:40I guarantee that it will not happen.
0:07:40 > 0:07:44This is going to happen and is already happening as a result
0:07:44 > 0:07:48of the government taking responsibility at national levels,
0:07:48 > 0:07:52state governments taking responsibility and the civil
0:07:52 > 0:07:57society, voluntary agencies coming together and providing support,
0:07:57 > 0:07:59restoring the office of the Vice President.
0:07:59 > 0:08:03There is an officer and a team of people focusing on getting life
0:08:03 > 0:08:10back to normal for these vulnerable women and children in terms
0:08:10 > 0:08:15of education, in terms of medicines, in terms of food supplies.
0:08:15 > 0:08:22In the last three or four months, the president ordered relief of food
0:08:22 > 0:08:26support from our strategic reserves of agriculture.
0:08:26 > 0:08:27We are mindful of the problem.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31Let's move on to national economic issues and talk money.
0:08:31 > 0:08:35The most profound economic problem in Nigeria is that you are super
0:08:35 > 0:08:38reliant on oil exports.
0:08:38 > 0:08:4295% of your export revenues come from oil.
0:08:42 > 0:08:4770% of your government revenues come directly from oil.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50The price of oil has plunged for the past two years.
0:08:50 > 0:08:55That has left all of your economic planning in ruins.
0:08:56 > 0:08:57No, I disagree.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01We used to be reliant on oil proceeds.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03Your not qurelling with my figures, are you?
0:09:03 > 0:09:04You are still super reliant on oil.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06I quarrel with the figures.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09As this government has indicated very clearly,
0:09:09 > 0:09:13its budget will be driven by resources from taxation and any
0:09:13 > 0:09:17serious government, any forward-looking government,
0:09:17 > 0:09:19like this government, must understand that the boom
0:09:19 > 0:09:23from commodity prices is extraordinary income.
0:09:23 > 0:09:29You cannot plan a future a round extraordinary income that
0:09:29 > 0:09:30you do not control the cycles of.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33Yes, while we might have made some poor choices about how
0:09:33 > 0:09:35we spent that money, clearly this administration has
0:09:35 > 0:09:39a focus now that will deal with our funding issues
0:09:39 > 0:09:47from taxation, corporate taxation and all of that, and unlike in
0:09:47 > 0:09:51the past when we were budgeting to earn $70 per barrel of oil,
0:09:51 > 0:09:53this was a conservative would support a budget
0:09:53 > 0:09:55of $38 poor barrel.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59Even at that time it was trading north of that.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02It is just about the price, it is about the capacity
0:10:02 > 0:10:04and delivery of the oil you have got.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06For example, we talked about security in terms
0:10:06 > 0:10:09of Boko Haram, you now security issues in the delta
0:10:09 > 0:10:14with a new group, the so-called Delta Avengers who are attacking
0:10:14 > 0:10:17pipelines and again, for you as a minister responsible
0:10:17 > 0:10:22for infrastructure in your country, how can you defend the fact that
0:10:22 > 0:10:26Shell, Chevron, key producers have had to stop production
0:10:26 > 0:10:30because a new brand of militants are destroying the infrastructure?
0:10:30 > 0:10:35I understand that there are problems there now and there are people
0:10:35 > 0:10:41who are aggrieved and who have chosen a very unencouraging outlet
0:10:41 > 0:10:46to vent their anger but it is not something that will endure for ever.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49They say their campaign will get worse.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53They say you haven't seen anything yet.
0:10:53 > 0:10:58That is not unusual to hear from a group who want to project
0:10:58 > 0:11:05and be seen to be taken seriously.
0:11:05 > 0:11:10I know we are working hard to engage with them and to secure,
0:11:10 > 0:11:14because there is an obligation first to secure the assets there.
0:11:14 > 0:11:18Those are national assets.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21I want you to address reality.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25The insecurity has cost you roughly a quarter of your oil output.
0:11:25 > 0:11:32Without a doubt, we have lost some oil.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35We have lost some projected revenues, but are coming back.
0:11:35 > 0:11:36You sit with me...
0:11:36 > 0:11:37Production is improving.
0:11:37 > 0:11:38Until the next round of attacks.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41You sit with me as the minister responsible for delivering more
0:11:41 > 0:11:46efficient and expansive power systems, roads, infrastructure.
0:11:46 > 0:11:47That is your job.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49The government doesn't have the money.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51The oil price has dropped, oil production has dropped
0:11:51 > 0:11:53because of the new insecurity.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55Where are you going to find the money to deliver
0:11:55 > 0:11:57on all of your promises?
0:11:57 > 0:12:01We are funding our budget already.
0:12:01 > 0:12:07Last month we paid out about 63 billion naira to contractors
0:12:07 > 0:12:09who have not been paid for two years.
0:12:09 > 0:12:15Certainly, we could be in a better place but we are making progress.
0:12:15 > 0:12:17You need to make more than a bit of progress,
0:12:17 > 0:12:20you need to go a long way, particularly in power generation.
0:12:20 > 0:12:23I didn't say we made a bit of progress, we are making
0:12:23 > 0:12:25a lot of progress.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28I am saying a bit because I am looking at the figures.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30In the context of where we were coming from,
0:12:30 > 0:12:33paying out 63 billion naira to contractors who haven't been paid
0:12:33 > 0:12:37for two years is the best way to start to get the infrastructure
0:12:37 > 0:12:40back in place, to get people back to work,
0:12:40 > 0:12:45get production going and begin to rebuild the economy.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49That didn't happen in the whole budget cycle from the government
0:12:49 > 0:12:52we inherited the administration from.
0:12:52 > 0:12:57This is the first quarter performance.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01Here is what the senior lawyer working for the Centre
0:13:01 > 0:13:03for Social Justice in Nigeria.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06He says we are not seeing a single contract mobilising.
0:13:06 > 0:13:10Delays have meant work on road, power and other programmes
0:13:10 > 0:13:13is stalled or coming to a halt altogether.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16I don't know when that statement was made but if you go
0:13:16 > 0:13:24onto the major highways, contractors have moved back
0:13:24 > 0:13:27and they are working and they are re-engaging people.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30You said by the end of this year you would be getting
0:13:30 > 0:13:32to 6000 megawatts.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35There have been times in the recent past when your entire generating
0:13:35 > 0:13:40system has actually not even delivered 2000 megawatts.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42You are never going to meet your targets.
0:13:42 > 0:13:48Our generation capacity has reached 5000 megawatts.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50Of course there have been sabotages.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53You have the sabotage, you have outages.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56You have a grid that is obsolete.
0:13:56 > 0:14:00The grid is not obsolete, it is being rebuilt and expanded
0:14:00 > 0:14:04and developed as I speak, at the moment, and there is a lot
0:14:04 > 0:14:07of work going on since I came on to expand and
0:14:07 > 0:14:11strengthen the grid.
0:14:11 > 0:14:12It is being upgraded.
0:14:12 > 0:14:15There is a lot of work going on.
0:14:15 > 0:14:19We are running repairs, trying to make what we inherited work.
0:14:19 > 0:14:20I am optimistic that it will work.
0:14:24 > 0:14:28You seem to be a little undecided how over the next ten or 20 years,
0:14:28 > 0:14:30you will deliver this massive upsurge in power generation.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32At one point you talked about renewables, you said solar
0:14:32 > 0:14:35was the future for Nigeria and recently I got
0:14:35 > 0:14:41this quote from you.
0:14:41 > 0:14:44We are going to do a lot more gas and a lot more coal.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47We really feel that coal has to be part of our mix.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50It isn't right now, whereas in South Africa and the US
0:14:50 > 0:14:51there is 30% coal.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53We need to do it too.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56Did you not fallow the Paris Climate Summit, did you not buy
0:14:56 > 0:14:58into the idea that we are all the decarbonsiing
0:14:58 > 0:15:06the global economy?
0:15:06 > 0:15:09I have made the point repeatedly that, if we have the capacity
0:15:09 > 0:15:12to deliver coal, if we have the capacity to deliver gas,
0:15:12 > 0:15:14if we have the capacity to deliver hydro and solar power,
0:15:14 > 0:15:16why should we be limited?
0:15:16 > 0:15:19What is important is the mix and the content that we produce
0:15:19 > 0:15:21and there are nations who have very little capacity to deliver
0:15:21 > 0:15:22any sort of power...
0:15:22 > 0:15:24You will use more coal power then?
0:15:24 > 0:15:25We will.
0:15:25 > 0:15:27Never mind decarbonisation?
0:15:27 > 0:15:28We will.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30We have to survive first.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33We are part of the global economy and we will also
0:15:33 > 0:15:36keep our commitments.
0:15:36 > 0:15:37Let's talk now about delivery.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40You have a strategy and you are very ambitious with your targets
0:15:40 > 0:15:50for power generation over the next 15 or 20 years.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53You tell me you will use all of the available means
0:15:53 > 0:15:54to do it, including coal.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57There is one overriding problem we haven't discussed and it
0:15:57 > 0:15:59covers your sectors, it covers the whole economy
0:15:59 > 0:16:00and that is corruption.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02Corruption, and Mr Buhari has said it himself,
0:16:02 > 0:16:04it is killing Nigeria.
0:16:04 > 0:16:07Well, I think the clear evidence is that we have done better
0:16:07 > 0:16:09in the way that we enforce law and order.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13I think that corruption is a symptom of a larger problem of noncompliance
0:16:13 > 0:16:16and, therefore, I would focus on law and order and in such a way that
0:16:16 > 0:16:20compliance becomes the way of life and people who fail to comply really
0:16:20 > 0:16:22are those who scandalise us.
0:16:22 > 0:16:24For me, there is no corruption free country.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27It is a clash between law and order, really, and enforcement
0:16:27 > 0:16:42and the lack of it.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45The more of that we see in our procurement process
0:16:45 > 0:16:48and our way of life, in how open and transparent we do
0:16:48 > 0:17:06things, the better off we will be.
0:17:06 > 0:17:08If it comes to enforcement, Nigeria must be at the bottom
0:17:08 > 0:17:10of the global league table.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13I wonder how you felt when a short distance from here,
0:17:13 > 0:17:15a few short months ago, the Prime Minister David Cameron
0:17:15 > 0:17:18saw your boss, President Buhari, entering a room and said
0:17:18 > 0:17:20he thought, privately, though it was on a microphone,
0:17:20 > 0:17:22we have some leaders of fantastically corrupt
0:17:22 > 0:17:23countries coming to Britain.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25Nigeria and Afghanistan is possibly the two most corrupt countries
0:17:25 > 0:17:43in the world.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45I think that the former Prime Minister was speaking tongue
0:17:45 > 0:17:47in cheek, because if this country...
0:17:47 > 0:17:48I don't think he was.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51Because if this country plays host to stolen property, as it were,
0:17:51 > 0:17:54there is a strong moral issue, and if I remember my criminal law,
0:17:54 > 0:17:58it is as much an offence to receive stolen property as to actually steal
0:17:58 > 0:18:01it, and I think all of those who make those kinds of comments
0:18:01 > 0:18:03and become bastions and harbour the proceeds of corruption
0:18:03 > 0:18:04need to do everything.
0:18:04 > 0:18:09That is in the past.
0:18:09 > 0:18:11The president has said clearly that he is not interested
0:18:11 > 0:18:14in an apology, he is interested in having the money back.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17If you have something that is stolen, please give it back.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19The president recently said, because he has been seen,
0:18:19 > 0:18:21he fought the election on an anti-corruption ticket,
0:18:21 > 0:18:24he said recently that I am worried that the expectation of the public
0:18:24 > 0:18:28is yet to be met by the judiciary with regard to the removal
0:18:28 > 0:18:30of delay and the toleration of delay by lawyers.
0:18:30 > 0:18:34What he is saying is the judiciary is not doing its job and coming down
0:18:34 > 0:18:36like a tonne of bricks on people, very powerful people,
0:18:36 > 0:18:38who are still, in your administration, conducting corrupt
0:18:38 > 0:18:39practices.
0:18:39 > 0:18:41I don't think the judiciary isn't doing its work,
0:18:41 > 0:18:44I think all of us understand that there must be a process
0:18:44 > 0:18:47to prosecution and you cannot break the law to enforce the law
0:18:47 > 0:18:49and the right of the people, constitutionally guaranteed rights,
0:18:49 > 0:18:52must be respected in this and that is not a local problem.
0:18:52 > 0:19:06It is also an international problem.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10All of the proceeds of crime held abroad are also tied up in one form
0:19:10 > 0:19:14of judicial process.
0:19:14 > 0:19:18Prosecutors actually get rewarded for what they seize.
0:19:18 > 0:19:20For recovering assets, that is really important,
0:19:20 > 0:19:22but to actually crack down on the perpetrators
0:19:22 > 0:19:24in your own country, that is down to you guys
0:19:24 > 0:19:35and the question is if you are serious.
0:19:35 > 0:19:36We are doing that...
0:19:36 > 0:19:38Transparency International has you close to the bottom
0:19:38 > 0:19:41of the league table for corrupt nations right now and their chief
0:19:41 > 0:19:43coordinator in West Africa said, ending the impunity
0:19:43 > 0:19:45is about political will, because those benefiting most
0:19:45 > 0:19:47are amongst the ranks of the leaders.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49People, may I say, such as yourself in government,
0:19:49 > 0:20:00you are the guys who many Nigerians feel are still implicated.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02I think the government has shown clear will.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05I think you will see in the number of charges that are being brought
0:20:05 > 0:20:08against people who were hitherto thought to be above the law.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11Can you name me anyone who was thought to be above the law
0:20:11 > 0:20:13who has been brought before a court?
0:20:13 > 0:20:15I think the evidence, former security advisers,
0:20:15 > 0:20:20all of those party chiefs and all of that.
0:20:20 > 0:20:28The point to make is that, locally, by ratings,
0:20:28 > 0:20:30the people of Nigeria think the president has walked his talk
0:20:30 > 0:20:34in terms of corruption, how many people you ultimately see
0:20:34 > 0:20:38in jail is one thing and the point must be made very clearly as well
0:20:38 > 0:20:39that there are many interests here involved.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42The interest to see people convicted, the interest to recover
0:20:42 > 0:20:45and the interest to ensure that it won't happen again and all of these
0:20:45 > 0:20:48are going on simultaneously.
0:20:48 > 0:21:02You sound like...
0:21:02 > 0:21:04The people believe there will be consequences for action.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07Do you think the people of your country really trust
0:21:07 > 0:21:08people like you?
0:21:08 > 0:21:09I think they do.
0:21:09 > 0:21:11Even when they read, and you were a popular
0:21:11 > 0:21:13governor of Lagos provence, you got re-elected, so you had
0:21:13 > 0:21:16a good political track record, but after you left office in 2015,
0:21:16 > 0:21:18there were serious questions asked about you.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21You spent 70 million naira on upgrading your website.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24You spent 600 million naira on a German engineering firm coming
0:21:24 > 0:21:31to improve the car park outside your official residence.
0:21:31 > 0:21:33People began to wonder weather even you had been abusing
0:21:33 > 0:21:44the public trust.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46Yes, the point, my response, I havemade my response
0:21:46 > 0:21:47on those matters.
0:21:47 > 0:21:51If anyone truly believes I acted in any improper way and I have made
0:21:51 > 0:21:53the point today, we need to be circumspect and very careful.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56Transparency is all very good, but we need to also understand that
0:21:56 > 0:21:59some people work very hard in their lives to their reputation
0:21:59 > 0:22:02and people who make those kinds of allegations must be ready
0:22:02 > 0:22:07to stand up and verify them.
0:22:07 > 0:22:09I mean Minister, here...
0:22:09 > 0:22:11Nobody has accused me...
0:22:11 > 0:22:15Most people in your country earn less than $2...
0:22:15 > 0:22:17Nobody has accused me, the body has accused me
0:22:17 > 0:22:21of privately benefiting myself.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24There were allegations that I think, at the very best, were a clear
0:22:24 > 0:22:25misunderstanding of how procurement processes work.
0:22:25 > 0:22:29Let me end then by asking you, as one of the most powerful
0:22:29 > 0:22:30ministers in the government...
0:22:30 > 0:22:36I am just a minister.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38You have three portfolios so you are doing very well.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40That doesn't make me powerful.
0:22:40 > 0:22:46It makes me responsible.
0:22:46 > 0:22:49However you want to put it, let me ask you this...
0:22:49 > 0:22:52I have been travelling to Nigeria for HARDtalk for many years now,
0:22:52 > 0:22:52more than a decade.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55Every time I go I hear Nigerians telling me that this
0:22:55 > 0:22:59is going to be our time, we are going to be the economic
0:22:59 > 0:23:01powerhouse of Africa and yet, look at the reality today,
0:23:01 > 0:23:02foreign direct investment is down.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05It seems the Ivory Coast, one of your neighbours,
0:23:05 > 0:23:07is actually more successful in attracting inward investment
0:23:07 > 0:23:08than you are.
0:23:08 > 0:23:10Oil output is down.
0:23:10 > 0:23:12Angola has overtaken you as the biggest oil
0:23:12 > 0:23:21producer in Africa.
0:23:21 > 0:23:23Look at various metrics, Nigeria is failing to fulfil its potential.
0:23:23 > 0:23:25My response to foreign direct investment is simple,
0:23:25 > 0:23:27no country survives on their own investment,
0:23:27 > 0:23:30butt every country thrives on the investment of their people.
0:23:30 > 0:23:32As long as Nigerians are responding and investing in our economy,
0:23:32 > 0:23:38I think we will turn this corner.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41As I said in the opening part of the discussion, there
0:23:41 > 0:23:45is a global downward trend.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47National growth projections have been revised downwards and,
0:23:47 > 0:23:49in these very difficult global time, there will be
0:23:49 > 0:23:54diverse local consequences.
0:23:54 > 0:23:57Nigeria is underperforming.
0:23:57 > 0:23:58We are not underperforming.
0:23:58 > 0:24:01We are facing a turbulent time, a difficult tide, but we will come
0:24:01 > 0:24:04through and I see that happening within a shorter time
0:24:04 > 0:24:13than a longer time.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15We have the end there but, Babatunde Fashola, thank