:00:00. > :00:11.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalkful nil
:00:12. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk. When Ashraf Ghani became President of
:00:21. > :00:24.Afghanistan two years ago, he talked about new diplomatic co-operation
:00:25. > :00:28.with Pakistan to end the war with the Taliban. As so often before,
:00:29. > :00:34.hopes have been dashed. The war goes on. Relations between Kabul and
:00:35. > :00:37.Islamabad have soured and the Afghan people still live with a
:00:38. > :00:44.dysfunctional Government and a broken economy. My guest is
:00:45. > :00:49.Afghanistan's ambassador to Pakistan, Omar Zakhiwal. Is
:00:50. > :01:14.Afghanistan beyondal vagus? -- beyond salvation.
:01:15. > :01:15.Ambassador Omar Zakhilwal in Islamabad, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:16. > :01:20.Let's start with the relationship that you monitor very closely,
:01:21. > :01:21.that between your country and Pakistan.
:01:22. > :01:27.When Ashraf Ghani was inaugurated president, he talked of establishing
:01:28. > :01:29.a new relationship working together to try and make peace
:01:30. > :01:36.These days, his tone is very different.
:01:37. > :01:43.We certainly wanted to see results on the ground.
:01:44. > :01:54.What he believed in, he still believes.
:01:55. > :01:56.But the road to peace in Afghanistan goes through Pakistan.
:01:57. > :01:59.But Pakistan having influence over the Taliban, who are fighting
:02:00. > :02:01.the government of Afghanistan for the past many years,
:02:02. > :02:06.do listen to certain influential institutions in this country.
:02:07. > :02:09.These institutions will be helpful in bringing the Taliban
:02:10. > :02:12.to the negotiating table and this will lead to peace.
:02:13. > :02:15.In order to get there of course we need also to first change
:02:16. > :02:21.the nature of our relationship with Pakistan, a relationship
:02:22. > :02:27.that was certainly had very little trust.
:02:28. > :02:34.President Ashraf Ghani when he tried to change the path into a path
:02:35. > :02:37.in which we would develop trust between the two nations,
:02:38. > :02:40.and of course the multi-dimensional nature of the relationship
:02:41. > :02:42.between Afghanistan and Pakistan gives us the opportunity
:02:43. > :02:49.That's the point I'm trying to get to.
:02:50. > :02:56.The Pakistanis have delivered in a sense on their part
:02:57. > :02:59.of the bargain, they brought the Taliban to the negotiating
:03:00. > :03:03.They had that first round of talks last year in Murree in Pakistan.
:03:04. > :03:05.This year the Pakistanis have clearly still been talking
:03:06. > :03:08.to the Taliban about engaging with you guys in some
:03:09. > :03:13.And yet you, your government has now sort of closed the curtains on that.
:03:14. > :03:16.Just a few months ago Ashraf Ghani said no more talks.
:03:17. > :03:22.They haven't brought the Taliban for negotiations to whom we said no.
:03:23. > :03:25.President Ashraf Ghani has not lowered the curtains on talks,
:03:26. > :03:30.in fact talks continue to be our preferred
:03:31. > :03:35.It was Afghanistan who proposed the quadrilateral,
:03:36. > :03:39.it was Afghanistan within the quadrilateral which includes
:03:40. > :03:44.the Chinese, the Americans and Afghanistan, pushed Pakistan
:03:45. > :03:47.to bring the Taliban to the negotiating table.
:03:48. > :03:51.But it was the Taliban who rejected peace talks publicly
:03:52. > :03:54.and it was the Taliban who started the spring offensive and the Taliban
:03:55. > :04:00.who carried out some of the most heinous terrorist attacks in Kabul,
:04:01. > :04:07.most notably the April 19 bombing which killed hundreds of innocent
:04:08. > :04:14.The Taliban are probably never going to stop the fight and put down
:04:15. > :04:20.all of their arms while a dialogue and negotiations are underway.
:04:21. > :04:30.Within the quadrilateral we did not put any particular conditions.
:04:31. > :04:41.We said, they join peace talks which will lead to this coalition
:04:42. > :04:50.But the Taliban rejected peace talks categorically and they
:04:51. > :04:55.You are putting all the blame on the Taliban, but it is your
:04:56. > :04:58.president Ashraf Ghani who made a speech late in April saying
:04:59. > :05:03.the Taliban now are regarded by us as nothing but terrorists.
:05:04. > :05:07.We will crack down on them, we will take military action
:05:08. > :05:10.to destroy them, and we expect Pakistan to do the same.
:05:11. > :05:14.And if Pakistan doesn't do the same will ask the international community
:05:15. > :05:28.President Omar Zakhilwal at the end of April said a statement exactly
:05:29. > :05:31.taken out from the quadrilateral road map to peace talks
:05:32. > :05:38.that was agreed between the Chinese, the Americans, Pakistan and us.
:05:39. > :05:42.That said, the Taliban would be invited to join peace talks
:05:43. > :05:50.and those who renounce peace talks...
:05:51. > :05:54.There were within the road map next steps that would be taken and those
:05:55. > :06:00.next steps included operations against them.
:06:01. > :06:06.With the start of the spring offensive and most particularly
:06:07. > :06:11.with this really major suicide bombing they carried out on the 19th
:06:12. > :06:17.of April, which killed and injured hundreds of people,
:06:18. > :06:20.that was a clear statement by the Taliban that they had
:06:21. > :06:27.As per the quadrilateral road map, steps needed to be taken and that's
:06:28. > :06:33.Let's not get too stuck on the details of the
:06:34. > :06:39.Let's stick on what really matters, your relationship
:06:40. > :06:57.In the end if there isn't co-operation and trust
:06:58. > :07:00.between you and Pakistan it's hard to see that there will ever be
:07:01. > :07:05.We all know that Taliban leaders still have safe haven
:07:06. > :07:09.For a time you appeared to be able to live with that, now
:07:10. > :07:11.you are saying that is completely unacceptable.
:07:12. > :07:14.Let's get this out in the open, the fact Taliban leaders
:07:15. > :07:17.have the ability to travel around Pakistan, appeared to be offered
:07:18. > :07:19.haven in Pakistan, is that a fundamental stumbling
:07:20. > :07:27.Again, the public statements from Pakistan is that they would not
:07:28. > :07:33.allow anybody who threatened Afghanistan security who were
:07:34. > :07:36.fighting against the legitimate Afghan government.
:07:37. > :07:39.And that's exactly what we want the Pakistani government to live up
:07:40. > :07:51.In those public statements of course means that those who threaten Afghan
:07:52. > :07:59.security and leadership is, if has offices here and if they have
:08:00. > :08:02.meetings here, if they lead the war in Afghanistan from here,
:08:03. > :08:05.then as per the public statements from Pakistan you should not be
:08:06. > :08:08.You don't trust the Pakistani that all?
:08:09. > :08:12.There is already so much mistrust between the states so I'm not
:08:13. > :08:18.going to use the word whether I'd trust or don't trust.
:08:19. > :08:24.But what I'm going to say is that actions have not met the public
:08:25. > :08:30.statements as far as, again the steps are concerned
:08:31. > :08:38.with respect to the Taliban's offices, movements and all that.
:08:39. > :08:40.Let's get some quickfire questions with quickfire responses.
:08:41. > :08:45.We know the Taliban has a new leader, their last leader
:08:46. > :08:51.There's a new leader Haibatullah Akhundzada.
:08:52. > :08:54.Have you got any reason to believe that he's more interested
:08:55. > :08:57.a dialogue, negotiations and peace deal than his predecessors?
:08:58. > :09:03.But I do believe that under pressure they will have to come
:09:04. > :09:10.As they did last year when that was tried.
:09:11. > :09:18.In the beginning, if the support is there, if the offices
:09:19. > :09:21.are there and they are not touched, of course there are limits
:09:22. > :09:29.within the Taliban, they believe in fighting,
:09:30. > :09:31.and therefore they will not come forward.
:09:32. > :09:36.And therefore, pressure is needed.
:09:37. > :09:40.The Pakistani say that you in Afghanistan are harbouring
:09:41. > :09:42.some of the people in the Pakistani Taliban
:09:43. > :09:44.who are fighting against Pakistani forces inside Pakistani,
:09:45. > :09:46.you're offering safe haven to terrorists damaging
:09:47. > :09:50.The most heinous criminal in the TTP, who was the mastermind
:09:51. > :10:03.of the Army public school which was targeted in Afghanistan
:10:04. > :10:06.a few weeks ago as per the order of the president, full endorsement
:10:07. > :10:09.of the President by the Americans of course, and was eliminated along
:10:10. > :10:17.At the end of 2014, the beginning of 2015, there were other culprits
:10:18. > :10:24.at the technical level, the operational level.
:10:25. > :10:29.They were busted by the Afghan side and handed over to Pakistan.
:10:30. > :10:35.There was a leader of the TTP who was arrested by the Americans,
:10:36. > :10:41.handed over to Afghanistan, Latif Mehsud was his name,
:10:42. > :10:45.he was handed over to Pakistani intelligence and security forces...
:10:46. > :10:50.In that case, if you're so keen on offering mutual security
:10:51. > :10:53.guarantees to the Pakistanis, and not harbouring any "Terrorists"
:10:54. > :11:04.who are seeking to do damage Pakistan, why are you so opposed
:11:05. > :11:07.to the Pakistani fortifying the border with you?
:11:08. > :11:09.They are putting up fortified fences, you say that's not right,
:11:10. > :11:13.that they shouldn't be doing it, it would seem to me that it's just
:11:14. > :11:16.one way of guaranteeing that the bad guys don't pass easily
:11:17. > :11:19.The one-way which would guarantee an effective elimination
:11:20. > :11:21.to terrorism would be the change of policy.
:11:22. > :11:26.Good fences make good neighbours, Ambassador.
:11:27. > :11:37.And there is the similar nation living on both sides.
:11:38. > :11:42.Those are, I would say, not the real issues.
:11:43. > :11:44.The trouble is you don't accept the international border,
:11:45. > :11:52.For practical purposes, we haven't challenged Pakistan's
:11:53. > :12:01.presence on this side of the Durand Line, have we?
:12:02. > :12:04.Your politicians still call it a historic evil, that
:12:05. > :12:11.Well, they call it historic but have we challenged Pakistan's presents
:12:12. > :12:15.It comes down to this question of trust.
:12:16. > :12:18.It's another way in which you and the Pakistani state seem
:12:19. > :12:22.But let's move on, because there are so many important things
:12:23. > :12:25.You've said that right now, there cannot be negotiations
:12:26. > :12:27.because the Taliban, you say, is committed
:12:28. > :12:34.I thought you just said that that's why Ashraf Ghani isn't
:12:35. > :12:40.If the Taliban come forward to negotiate, will be
:12:41. > :12:43.Sure, but you've just told me the Taliban are letting off bombs,
:12:44. > :12:45.they've launched a spring offensive...
:12:46. > :12:47.Yes, if they do what would be our response?
:12:48. > :12:50.If they do come forward to peace talks and continued to attack,
:12:51. > :12:52.then of course our response would be to counterattack.
:12:53. > :12:57.The bottom line is, right now the focus is on the battlefield.
:12:58. > :13:00.I would put it to you that if you look at all the news coming
:13:01. > :13:04.out of the battlefield, your forces are doing very badly.
:13:05. > :13:07.This year you've lost 5% more of your national territory
:13:08. > :13:09.to the Taliban than at the beginning of the year.
:13:10. > :13:17.The aim of the Taliban was to capture a few cities
:13:18. > :13:21.They haven't captured any major city, any major township.
:13:22. > :13:25.They have lost quite a big number of their people.
:13:26. > :13:28.Their aim was in fact to overthrow the government.
:13:29. > :13:33.I don't know which war you're watching Ambassador,
:13:34. > :13:37.but General John Nicholson the commander of US forces
:13:38. > :13:39.in Afghanistan says "The security situation in Afghanistan has been
:13:40. > :13:42.deteriorating rather than improving".
:13:43. > :13:45.Deteriorating because there's more fighting, because of the fighting
:13:46. > :13:49.But our security forces have shown resilience, they've shown
:13:50. > :14:01.And they are inflicting very heavy casualties on the Taliban.
:14:02. > :14:04.I know you're paid to represent your government in the most positive
:14:05. > :14:07.light but again, I don't know quite what you're reading but I'm reading
:14:08. > :14:10.the last official US status report on the Afghan army which says,
:14:11. > :14:14.and this is from the spring of this year," the Afghan National Army has
:14:15. > :14:23.begun experiencing serious problems in recruitment,
:14:24. > :14:25.the Army also experienced a resurgence of ghost soldiering,
:14:26. > :14:28.soldiers supposed to be on parade but don't show up and appointments
:14:29. > :14:30.to senior positions are still heavily influenced by political
:14:31. > :14:32.interference, often resulting in the appointment
:14:33. > :14:44.It is there and has been identified recently.
:14:45. > :14:50.Ghost soldiers was an issue that was there all along,
:14:51. > :14:54.it has been discovered and therefore it's a positive thing
:14:55. > :14:56.that we are finding this has happened.
:14:57. > :14:58.Within the Army, promotion has been merit-based.
:14:59. > :15:01.It was within the police that it was not so much merit based
:15:02. > :15:12.Therefore if you see the morale of our forces this year compared
:15:13. > :15:17.We get more involved in the offensive than we are
:15:18. > :15:21.And therefore, if you compared to where we are this year compared
:15:22. > :15:23.to last year, I think we are in a better standing.
:15:24. > :15:27.You know, I don't always have the greatest memory but I do
:15:28. > :15:30.remember that I first spoke to you in 2010 when you finance
:15:31. > :15:33.And you then assured me that very soon, very quickly,
:15:34. > :15:35.Afghanistan would be self-sufficient in military terms.
:15:36. > :15:38.Here we are six years later and Barack Obama has just had
:15:39. > :15:40.to postpone the latest draw down of US forces.
:15:41. > :15:43.They still got 8400 soldiers in the field in Afghanistan.
:15:44. > :15:45.It's clearly, in American terms, too risky to draw down
:15:46. > :15:58.You are frankly no closer to being truly militarily
:15:59. > :16:01.self-sufficient than you were back then.
:16:02. > :16:03.We will be militarily self-sufficient tomorrow,
:16:04. > :16:05.if this unjustified war is not imposed on us.
:16:06. > :16:08.If we get the needed support within the region to put
:16:09. > :16:18.So tomorrow we don't even need this many forces
:16:19. > :16:26.That is the most secular argument I've ever heard.
:16:27. > :16:29.You know better than me, one of the things the Taliban says
:16:30. > :16:32.is that they won't contemplate a peace deal with you until all
:16:33. > :16:37."Foreign occupiers" are out of Afghanistan.
:16:38. > :16:40.At some point you're going to have do wean yourselves off
:16:41. > :16:42.the international trainers and military advisers and personnel.
:16:43. > :16:45.I'm just asking you, when is that going to be?
:16:46. > :16:50.Right now we have 10,000 troops on the ground.
:16:51. > :16:51.Wouldn't that indicate more self-sufficiency
:16:52. > :16:58.It would be if you were winning, but you're not.
:16:59. > :17:01.But we are still holding the same as we were holding
:17:02. > :17:06.So we are doing not only our job but the job of 130,000 foreign
:17:07. > :17:10.So therefore shouldn't that be an indication of more strength
:17:11. > :17:14.I guess the issue isn't just about dependency in military terms,
:17:15. > :17:25.You as a former finance minister know more about this than most
:17:26. > :17:31.I think I'm right in saying that over 90% of Afghanistan's GDP
:17:32. > :17:33.still comes from international overseas aid and assistance.
:17:34. > :17:36.When are you going to get anywhere near a functioning economy?
:17:37. > :17:38.Right now your economy is in a terrible state
:17:39. > :17:48.Well be first necessary thing is for the war to stop,
:17:49. > :17:54.Once peace returns and war stops, and of course that's
:17:55. > :17:58.when the environment for economic growth,
:17:59. > :18:02.sustainable, robust economic growth will be laid.
:18:03. > :18:04.In essence you're telling me that the Taliban maintains
:18:05. > :18:08.It gives them enormous leverage to tell me that there is no way
:18:09. > :18:12.we can even begin to fix our economy until the Taliban problem is solved.
:18:13. > :18:19.No, no, OK in the terms of under the circumstances.
:18:20. > :18:21.But of course, with the fighting in Afghanistan, how our
:18:22. > :18:23.international investors are there to come and invest
:18:24. > :18:27.in Afghanistan with all the natural and mineral resources we have
:18:28. > :18:30.is to be exploited for the benefit of us and the benefit of investors?
:18:31. > :18:33.In that case, maybe you're being less frank when you say
:18:34. > :18:36.as you said before, that again Afghanistan is on the path
:18:37. > :18:38.to self-sufficiency in terms of its own economic future...
:18:39. > :18:45.It's not going to be on the path to self-sufficiency
:18:46. > :18:47.when we have a continuous war in Afghanistan.
:18:48. > :18:51.And therefore, I'm saying that war must stop, peace must return,
:18:52. > :19:05.and then we will be on the path to self-sufficiency.
:19:06. > :19:16.You're putting all the blame on the war.
:19:17. > :19:19.Surely it would be wiser to look at some of the internal problems
:19:20. > :19:22.in your country and perhaps acknowledge that actually not
:19:23. > :19:30.all of Afghanistan's current problems, and they are so profound,
:19:31. > :19:39.You have one great achievement in the world, and I use that word
:19:40. > :19:43.very loosely, in that you remain pretty much the most corrupt
:19:44. > :19:48.And you can't blame the war and the Taliban for that.
:19:49. > :20:03.Certainly we are a state that is in the making.
:20:04. > :20:14.65% of our ordinary budget is spent on security.
:20:15. > :20:23.That can tell you whether war has impact on our aspects
:20:24. > :20:30.So that certainly still contributes to it.
:20:31. > :20:33.But then of course new institutions, aid by itself is corrupting.
:20:34. > :20:36.Again, when you have a country that is so dependent on aid,
:20:37. > :20:38.and within Afghanistan you don't have one institution...
:20:39. > :20:48.So many different institutions, because every foreign institution
:20:49. > :20:50.that brings assistance to Afghanistan manages by itself.
:20:51. > :20:52.So it becomes extremely difficult to bring in an effective
:20:53. > :20:57.I ask this very brutal question, because it seems to me it's
:20:58. > :20:59.a question the Afghan people would put to you.
:21:00. > :21:01.Is there anybody close to power in Afghanistan who is not
:21:02. > :21:06.Since we last spoke, you yourself in a famous New Yorker
:21:07. > :21:08.article were accused of taking suitcases full of cash and giving
:21:09. > :21:11.them directly to the president to run his political campaign.
:21:12. > :21:30.The contribution was made to the President's election.
:21:31. > :21:33.But I have not taken any suitcase from anybody and handed it over
:21:34. > :21:38.If you go back and check the New Yorker that's not how
:21:39. > :21:43.In Afghanistan with this type of image, this of course
:21:44. > :21:45.is perception based, any rumour can stick to anybody.
:21:46. > :21:51.With the New Yorker and with the others,
:21:52. > :21:58.But when I ask for investigation, not one but two investigations
:21:59. > :22:02.to take place against me, and those to place and they found
:22:03. > :22:05.nothing and this was publicised, no international media took interest
:22:06. > :22:12.When it comes to corruption, or even negative news,
:22:13. > :22:16.everybody would be interested and would be happy to make it
:22:17. > :22:19.front-page headline, when of course those things
:22:20. > :22:22.are proven wrong you want not find anybody to come and even give it
:22:23. > :22:31.Let's end with a final thought about the political future
:22:32. > :22:34.You've got a national unity government which frankly doesn't
:22:35. > :22:40.You've got the Americans in the form of James Clapper the director of US
:22:41. > :22:42.national intelligence, saying that he sees 2016
:22:43. > :22:47.as "presenting a serious risk of political breakdown
:22:48. > :22:49.in your country, waning political cohesion, increasingly assertive
:22:50. > :22:51.local power brokers, financial shortfalls
:22:52. > :23:06.Is 2016 potentially going to be a year of breakdown
:23:07. > :23:10.I think under these circumstances the National unity government
:23:11. > :23:14.The fact that it survived for two years and is still functioning has
:23:15. > :23:17.already contradicted many pundits who predicted an immediate collapse
:23:18. > :23:20.The opposition outside the government are acting very
:23:21. > :23:29.They certainly would not want to push the government
:23:30. > :23:41.With the type of national unity government we have,
:23:42. > :23:44.if it was anywhere it would have its challenges
:23:45. > :23:47.and difficulties, but like I said, it was a government that came
:23:48. > :23:59.And still was put together, and the fact it is still
:24:00. > :24:01.functioning, I think is an enormously positive
:24:02. > :24:03.Looking forward, having said that we of course
:24:04. > :24:07.But the fact is that we do remain positive and optimistic
:24:08. > :24:11.Optimism is coming loud and clear from Islamabad.
:24:12. > :24:14.Thank you very much for joining us on HARDtalk.
:24:15. > :24:29.Thank you for inviting me and having me.