:00:00. > :00:10.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:11. > :00:15.Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Stephen Sackur.
:00:16. > :00:22.French newspapers will no longer publish pictures of the perpetrators
:00:23. > :00:31.of jihadist atrocities in an effort to ensure they are neither glorified
:00:32. > :00:35.nor humanised. My yesterday is a journalist who sees his mission
:00:36. > :00:37.differently. Norwegian Paul Refsdal have spent 30 years filming up close
:00:38. > :00:45.and personal from inside militant groups. He was held hostage while
:00:46. > :00:48.filming with the Taliban. Last year he spent weeks with would-be suicide
:00:49. > :00:51.bombers in Syria. Do we really need to see the West's enemies this
:00:52. > :01:25.close-up? Paul Refsdal, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:26. > :01:30.Thank you. Let's start with the motivation, the compulsion that
:01:31. > :01:37.throughout your career has taken you beyond "Enemy lines" to spend time
:01:38. > :01:46.with militants, with killers. What is it? Well, it started in
:01:47. > :01:50.Afghanistan. It was more a political reason than journalistic so to say.
:01:51. > :01:56.I wanted to do something for the Afghans fighting the Soviets and I
:01:57. > :02:04.just got stuck in Matt Wrack. Out of sympathy, you definitely had a side?
:02:05. > :02:10.Yes, it is something to do with the underdog thing -- with that. I was
:02:11. > :02:13.fascinated with the Indians in North America and the struggle against the
:02:14. > :02:17.white man, so it is something to do with that. And you know, I found
:02:18. > :02:24.that this is a very underreported field in war. I mean, insurgent
:02:25. > :02:27.sides, terrorist sites or whatever you want to call it. That is a very
:02:28. > :02:32.interesting proposition, that you would I guess therefore say that
:02:33. > :02:37.your job isn't to be entirely objective, to be neutral, you have
:02:38. > :02:43.sympathies, do you? Well, in a way you could say that I see the need of
:02:44. > :02:46.shelling the other side. If you have 99 journalists going with the
:02:47. > :02:52.government forces, I want to be the one going in with the insurgents and
:02:53. > :02:59.showing their point of view. With a view to a positive view, or...? I
:03:00. > :03:05.would say a neutral view. I don't want to make propaganda. Still, you
:03:06. > :03:12.see that in war... I mean, the media is not objective. We don't get our
:03:13. > :03:17.enemies the fair treatment that they should get if we were 100%
:03:18. > :03:24.objective. So, I think, you know, my job would more be to balance you
:03:25. > :03:27.know the coverage. Well, I want to come back to that, issues of balance
:03:28. > :03:32.and propaganda, but I think to get your story straight for everybody
:03:33. > :03:39.watching and listening, we need to explain how he penetrated into this
:03:40. > :03:47.group who were formerly known as al-Nusra. They have changed their
:03:48. > :03:53.name very recently. Essentially, the same organisation committed to an
:03:54. > :03:57.extreme form of jihadis, affiliated to Al-Qaeda until very recently. How
:03:58. > :04:04.did you get their trust? Well, actually, the first time I noticed
:04:05. > :04:09.that Al-Qaeda let's say like me would be when they published some of
:04:10. > :04:14.the letters that they captured from Osama Bin Laden's computer. In one
:04:15. > :04:16.of these letters I was mentioned as a Norwegian journalist who went with
:04:17. > :04:23.the Taliban and show that they were human beings. So apparently I am on
:04:24. > :04:31.some kind of Al-Qaeda... Approved list? Yes. Isn't it a terribly
:04:32. > :04:36.worrying place to be, on an Al-Qaeda approved list? They see you as a
:04:37. > :04:42.kind of propaganda tool. No, I think the lack of let's say fair treatment
:04:43. > :04:48.they are getting in Western media just makes them happy that someone
:04:49. > :04:54.is willing to go and listen to them... It is an interesting... Fair
:04:55. > :04:58.treatment for a group who committed the 9/11 atrocity, who have killed
:04:59. > :05:02.countless civilians around the world. I am not quite sure I
:05:03. > :05:07.understand what you mean by fair treatment? Well, the fair treatment
:05:08. > :05:12.in the group I went to in Syria is just showing what they are actually
:05:13. > :05:17.doing, not showing the history of the group that they are affiliated
:05:18. > :05:23.with. I mean, I am never going to defend, you know, flying planes into
:05:24. > :05:28.buildings or blowing yourself up in subway stations - never. But what
:05:29. > :05:35.you see in Syria is, maybe, I am saving may be, the new Al-Qaeda, an
:05:36. > :05:43.Al-Qaeda which works as an insurgent group against, you know, the
:05:44. > :05:47.regimes, or their -- authoritarian regimes. Last year over many months
:05:48. > :05:53.you got permission to go into the al-Nusra territory and you got
:05:54. > :05:59.permission to film, sort of fly on the wall, over many, many weeks,
:06:00. > :06:07.with a small group of men, some of whom were would-be suicide bombers.
:06:08. > :06:10.How ready were they to accept your presence and talk openly about what
:06:11. > :06:18.they were doing and their motivations? Well, actually, when I
:06:19. > :06:24.had a -- approval to fill with them it was a matter of asking
:06:25. > :06:28.individuals, would you participate in a film? There was a British man
:06:29. > :06:32.in a film. First he wanted to participate, then he didn't want and
:06:33. > :06:36.then he wanted again. So it was not... I mean, if he would have
:06:37. > :06:43.declined, I would have to respect that and I could not have use the
:06:44. > :06:47.footage that I had. So it is, you know, there is nothing automatic
:06:48. > :06:52.that happens with these groups. We will just look in a second at a
:06:53. > :06:54.couple of clips, and just by way of practising it, one of the
:06:55. > :07:00.extraordinary characters you came across was a Saudi man. Now, he is a
:07:01. > :07:04.father of two, he spent a couple of years in Syria on jihad, having left
:07:05. > :07:09.his family behind in Saudi Arabia, and he was on a list, and he was
:07:10. > :07:12.about, he thought, to be sent on a suicide operation. And you filmed
:07:13. > :07:20.him as he introduced you to the truck that he believed was going to
:07:21. > :07:54.be his route to suicide and to mass murder. Let's have a look at a clip.
:07:55. > :08:05.I mean, watching that, it is chilling and it is also very bizarre
:08:06. > :08:13.that he can, with such relaxation, talk you through the process of...
:08:14. > :08:18.Of a massive explosion that he knows is gonna kill many, many people.
:08:19. > :08:26.What was he really like? Well, he is a person who I would say... He loves
:08:27. > :08:30.life. He loves life? Yeah, he is very social, he is very funny. He
:08:31. > :08:37.has a beautiful voice. I mean, when he sings you think you are, you
:08:38. > :08:43.know, on the Syrian show for what you call it? X-Factor. Something
:08:44. > :08:48.like that. And also he loves food. LAUGHTER Well, I have seen the film.
:08:49. > :08:51.And it should be said, your film, Dugma: The Button, it can be
:08:52. > :08:56.downloaded by people across the world on the Internet. I have seen
:08:57. > :08:59.it and in a sense, when I talk about chilling, what is so strange about
:09:00. > :09:05.the film is that he these men are, intent on as I say mass killing, but
:09:06. > :09:12.they are portrayed by you in a very human way. You see them enjoying
:09:13. > :09:16.food, we see him entertaining children. You, in a sense, are
:09:17. > :09:21.inviting us to be sympathetic to them. But you have to remember
:09:22. > :09:26.that... You have to distinguish between killing civilians and
:09:27. > :09:29.killing soldiers. I mean, this group al-Nusra, they use these weapons
:09:30. > :09:37.against military targets, which is just... They don't kill civilians?
:09:38. > :09:41.They do kill civilians. They have killed civilians. They are killed...
:09:42. > :09:45.According to this area network of human rights they have killed 356
:09:46. > :09:50.civilians in five years of war. And if you compare that with the regime
:09:51. > :09:54.killing 183,000 plus, you know, that is not a lot of civilians.
:09:55. > :10:00.Nonetheless one of the points about your film that struck me is you
:10:01. > :10:03.never pressed him on the possibility that his massive truck bomb might
:10:04. > :10:08.well kill women and children. You never asked him that question. Well,
:10:09. > :10:16.when you see the film, you also see that he is speaking with one sheik
:10:17. > :10:25.who told him that he has to go and see the place he is gonna bomb. You
:10:26. > :10:29.know, even if he has 100 times. And when we went on one of these
:10:30. > :10:33.missions, he wanted to see at first because as I said he didn't want to
:10:34. > :10:40.kill any brothers and sisters in this operation. This is the same
:10:41. > :10:45.danger. If a tornado pilot drops a bomb on something he thinks is an
:10:46. > :10:50.Islamic State target, that is the same danger, you could kill women
:10:51. > :10:56.and children, but that is not the intended target of al-Nusra. IDSA,
:10:57. > :10:59.if you interview the pilot of the US plane, you would ask him that
:11:00. > :11:06.question, but you did not ask the same question of these guys --I dare
:11:07. > :11:10.say. But I think, you know... Were you controlled or censored in any
:11:11. > :11:15.way? No. There were some restrictions, filming buildings from
:11:16. > :11:20.outside, buildings that could be geo- located and presumably bombed.
:11:21. > :11:25.They didn't want me to do that. And certain people didn't want to show
:11:26. > :11:29.their faces either because they had some job that was secret or because
:11:30. > :11:33.they had family in the regime controlled area or Islamic State
:11:34. > :11:39.controlled area. Let's turn to your second key character, you have
:11:40. > :11:44.mentioned him already, known why his Arabic name. It has since become
:11:45. > :11:47.clear that he is actually a British - an American citizen, Lucas Kinney,
:11:48. > :11:52.who lived for a long time in London. Now, he talked to you for a long
:11:53. > :11:58.time, over weeks, but as time progressed it became clear... And he
:11:59. > :12:02.got married as well, it should be set. It became clear he was having
:12:03. > :12:08.doubts about being on the list of would-be suicide bombers -- said.
:12:09. > :12:13.And you pick away at the rising level of doubt. And this clip will
:12:14. > :12:18.illustrate that. Let's have a look. It was a very big change. Not to
:12:19. > :12:23.sound cliche or anything, but really you feel before a part of you was
:12:24. > :12:30.incomplete and now you have found apart to complete that. Has it had
:12:31. > :12:37.any, let's say, effect on you to get married, that there are things you
:12:38. > :12:48.wouldn't do any more in jihad? Can you give an example? Well, I have
:12:49. > :13:08.heard that you are on the list. Have you talked with your wife about it?
:13:09. > :13:13.Yeah. And what does she say? Like I said, if your wife is a believing
:13:14. > :13:17.woman with strong faith, then she should help you in all aspects of
:13:18. > :13:24.your life. Fascinating stuff. Do you happen to know whether he did kill
:13:25. > :13:30.himself? As far as I know, he is still alive. As far as you know. I
:13:31. > :13:35.wonder what his mother, who lives in London, makes of your film and
:13:36. > :13:39.seeing her son in that way. Have you talked to her? We tried to contact
:13:40. > :13:44.her, because we wanted to show her the film as a courtesy, but we
:13:45. > :13:49.haven't managed. Let me ask you this, I want to broaden this out,
:13:50. > :13:52.because it is very tempting to spend the entire interview talking about
:13:53. > :13:56.what he found in Syria, because it is so interesting, and so rare, the
:13:57. > :14:01.access, but in France recently I ensure you are aware their has been
:14:02. > :14:05.a very hot debate, after the spate of horrible atrocities committed by
:14:06. > :14:10.men apparently loyal to Islamic State, there has been a strong
:14:11. > :14:15.debate about the wisdom of even providing pictures and names of the
:14:16. > :14:23.perpetrators. The philosopher and anti- sort of jihadist outspoken
:14:24. > :14:27.figure, Bernard Henri Levy, he said that the President on stable mix of
:14:28. > :14:31.trivialisation and glorification of these people, in which we are told
:14:32. > :14:36.that they are ordinary, that they happen to have hitched their fate to
:14:37. > :14:40.a gettable acts, he said this approach, picturing them, naming
:14:41. > :14:43.them, giving them a back story, will have the worst possible
:14:44. > :14:45.consequences, a copycat effect. What do you say to that? Actually, I'd
:14:46. > :14:54.agree. If you see these attacks which have
:14:55. > :15:00.been in France recently, you see that there are mental, unstable
:15:01. > :15:04.people. And I'm thinking about the phrase you had in the United States
:15:05. > :15:12.in the 1970s, suicide like cops. That people are actually suicidal,
:15:13. > :15:16.but want to go out in a blast. So in a way, yes. Are we not doing the
:15:17. > :15:21.very same thing, albeit in serious so maybe we pay less attention to it
:15:22. > :15:26.that in France? But aren't you doing the same thing, you are humanising
:15:27. > :15:30.and in providing an ego trip, some vanity platform, to people who want
:15:31. > :15:36.to kill themselves and kill others? Yes, I understand what you're
:15:37. > :15:40.saying, but as I said these... They are not targeting civilians. If they
:15:41. > :15:44.were actually... If this was Islamic State, and they were sending trucks
:15:45. > :15:50.of explosives into markets, I would never have done a film. Wouldn't
:15:51. > :15:53.you? No. Categorically? As a journalist, it would be a good
:15:54. > :15:56.story. It is something that every journalist network around the world
:15:57. > :15:59.would be interested in, but you are saying you have a system of values
:16:00. > :16:04.that allows you to sympathise to a certain extent with people who kill
:16:05. > :16:08.soldiers. Yes. Or intent to kill soldiers, even if they kill women
:16:09. > :16:14.and children inadvertently. You draw the line at IS. Yes, yes. In a way
:16:15. > :16:18.that they are doing these kinds of operations, yes. And that is kind of
:16:19. > :16:22.a luxury I as a documentary filmmaker have, that may be people
:16:23. > :16:26.in the newsroom don't have, because I can spend a lot of time doing my
:16:27. > :16:30.project. I mean, I have been working with this project nearly three
:16:31. > :16:34.years. And you have to do the story, you know, in the same day. So you
:16:35. > :16:41.have to search for kind of the scoop, thing. What I can... You
:16:42. > :16:45.know, I can consider these things, and let's say Islamic State, I
:16:46. > :16:49.wouldn't touch them. I just wonder, even, I just wonder at the thoughts
:16:50. > :16:54.that are coming out of France today about glorification and copycat
:16:55. > :17:00.pavers, whether they are giving you pause? There is a psychoanalyst in
:17:01. > :17:08.Paris who has said this, he has said that giving them publicity is a
:17:09. > :17:09.quote really big boost to their efforts to make themselves
:17:10. > :17:14.world-famous, even while their victims are anonymous and will
:17:15. > :17:18.forever remain anonymous. So going back to your film, do you worry that
:17:19. > :17:22.as more and more people download it and watch it around the world, there
:17:23. > :17:30.will be some who are attracted to the notion of becoming a jihadist
:17:31. > :17:33.suicide bomber? I think, you know, the angry Young second-generation
:17:34. > :17:37.Pakistani sitting in London who want to do Jihad, he is not going to be
:17:38. > :17:44.enticed by this film. I mean, he will want to have glorification, as
:17:45. > :17:47.you say. He will want to have this action film you get from Islamic
:17:48. > :17:54.State. This is not going to be a recruitment film. This is... The
:17:55. > :17:59.audience he would be people, you know, Europeans and Americans, who
:18:00. > :18:04.think that Al Qaeda is just black. It doesn't have any shades of grey.
:18:05. > :18:09.And he will see that actually they have... They are human beings. It
:18:10. > :18:15.sounds very banal but they are human beings, and that they have dilemmas.
:18:16. > :18:20.You know, they have problems. They... Maybe sometimes they are
:18:21. > :18:24.clumsy, they do mistakes. They are very human. And there has been a lot
:18:25. > :18:28.of academic research into what makes a foreign jihadist fighter. There
:18:29. > :18:33.has been a lot of talk about the comparisons with cults. You know,
:18:34. > :18:37.people who feel lost in their society in which they live, who are
:18:38. > :18:41.looking to belong, looking for a sense of meaning in their lives.
:18:42. > :18:45.Would you... Now that you have spent a lot of time with his foreign
:18:46. > :18:51.fighters, would you buy into that? Yes, well, maybe not necessarily Al
:18:52. > :18:58.Nostra. With Islamic State I would agree there is a certain cult factor
:18:59. > :19:04.that. -- Al Nusra. And I know some people who are in an Islamic State
:19:05. > :19:08.now, with Al Nusra I think it is more honest, it is more honours.
:19:09. > :19:14.They want to fight the regime, and they are fighting, as I said, you
:19:15. > :19:22.know, in a very... What would I say? They are fighting and respecting the
:19:23. > :19:26.world laws of war, you know. Both Islamic and I would say the Geneva
:19:27. > :19:30.convention up to a certain point. You throughout this interview have
:19:31. > :19:36.insisted on this idea that they have a value system that you can in some
:19:37. > :19:40.ways respect. Yes. Let's talk personal things. You... You
:19:41. > :19:45.undertake a lot of danger to get the stories that you get, whether it be
:19:46. > :19:48.in Peru or Sri Lanka in the past, but more recently in Afghanistan and
:19:49. > :19:54.the Middle East. There is no question you take enormous risks. I
:19:55. > :19:58.just want to know, in terms of your family, you've got kids, whether you
:19:59. > :20:07.really sometimes wonder whether it's worth it? Well, actually, I've got
:20:08. > :20:12.kids. And I... They are adults now. I believe I am very careful doing
:20:13. > :20:18.the things I'm doing. I mean, I'm not looking for the action. I don't
:20:19. > :20:26.often go to the front line. I go to the front line from time to time,
:20:27. > :20:30.but you know, what I really am looking for these days is not the
:20:31. > :20:34.explosions, it's the people behind the explosions. Their psychology.
:20:35. > :20:40.And you have to take a certain risk. And you know you have taken risks,
:20:41. > :20:46.because you have had the experience of being taken hostage. You were
:20:47. > :20:52.sold to hostage takers by the Taliban and they want at one point
:20:53. > :20:57.$500,000 in ransom. Well, actually, he kept me. They wanted 500 thousand
:20:58. > :21:05.dollars in ransom but we negotiated it down to $20,000. And... But the
:21:06. > :21:09.money was never paid, because there was a lot of pressure within the
:21:10. > :21:13.Taliban for him to release me. So actually it was solved in six days.
:21:14. > :21:17.So six days you were out at the most extraordinary twist to that story is
:21:18. > :21:20.that they are at one point confronted Ewan said one way you
:21:21. > :21:26.could save yourself is to convert to Islam. And you did. Well, there were
:21:27. > :21:29.four options. There was exchanged for prisoners, which was out of the
:21:30. > :21:35.question. There was a ransom, which at that point was $20,000, and it
:21:36. > :21:42.was converting to Islam, and the fourth option was heading. So I had
:21:43. > :21:49.previously been talking about conversing and considering it,
:21:50. > :21:53.actually, since I was in Chechnya -- beheading. So you could say this is
:21:54. > :21:57.a bad time a good time, but I converted. It was certainly quite an
:21:58. > :22:05.active prompt for you to consider it. It is the weirdest way to
:22:06. > :22:10.convert. Are you now fully observant Muslim? Yes. So here is the question
:22:11. > :22:14.for you. You have spent the last few years focusing on radical, militant,
:22:15. > :22:18.jihadist Islam. You yourself are now unidentified Muslim. Yes. Is there
:22:19. > :22:21.something profoundly different about the militants that are steeped in
:22:22. > :22:24.this extreme form of Islamist ideology, that separates them out
:22:25. > :22:30.from all the other militants you have worked with over the years, in
:22:31. > :22:34.quite a Molik, Peru, Sri Lanka, Burma, you have met all sorts of
:22:35. > :22:36.Muslims but is there something identifiably different about
:22:37. > :22:44.Islamist jihadist militants -- Guatemala. Actually, not really. I
:22:45. > :22:52.mean, you find... Let's say I was in Peru, the very extreme Maoist group,
:22:53. > :22:57.and they in a way, in a sense they were like a religious cult. I mean,
:22:58. > :23:01.they were speaking about a party, like it was heaven. That the
:23:02. > :23:07.President was a messiah to them. So do something similar, you no, with
:23:08. > :23:11.all these groups, and it comes down to the motivation. Of course, if you
:23:12. > :23:16.are religious you know that you are going to have an if you die in the
:23:17. > :23:20.struggle. If you are at an atheist, you just die. And all these people
:23:21. > :23:27.that you're currently working with, or have been in Syria, the jihadist
:23:28. > :23:31.to want to die, in your mind there is no doubt of their religious
:23:32. > :23:36.conviction. They truly believe this stuff. Of course, yes. Otherwise
:23:37. > :23:42.they couldn't have done it. So just to end, when you think about Syria
:23:43. > :23:46.today and the confrontation between a start's forces, the various
:23:47. > :23:49.terrorist groups but in particular the Islamist radical groups, where
:23:50. > :23:57.it is the balance of power lie in your view? -- Assad's forces. Assad
:23:58. > :24:00.has the power, but these people have the belief. I think Assad without
:24:01. > :24:06.foreign intervention, without Hezbollah from Lebanon, without
:24:07. > :24:10.uranium troops, without Russian air power, he would be finished quite
:24:11. > :24:18.quickly. And then what would happen with Syria, I mean, I wouldn't know.
:24:19. > :24:23.Will you go back to find out? Sure. Paul Refsdal, thank you for being on
:24:24. > :24:26.HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed.