0:00:05 > 0:00:05Now
0:00:05 > 0:00:05Now it
0:00:05 > 0:00:06Now it is
0:00:06 > 0:00:06Now it is time for
0:00:06 > 0:00:08Now it is time for HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12Welcome to HARDtalk I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:12 > 0:00:16To put it mildly, a Washington foreign policy-making establishment
0:00:16 > 0:00:19doesn't like Donald Trump.
0:00:19 > 0:00:25Unqualified, ignorant, dangerous, those are the kind are adjectives
0:00:25 > 0:00:26being thrown around.
0:00:26 > 0:00:27But what about his rival?
0:00:27 > 0:00:29And there are reasons to worry about Hillary Clinton's
0:00:29 > 0:00:32foreign policy vision?
0:00:32 > 0:00:35Is she an unreconstructed military interventionist?
0:00:35 > 0:00:39My guest is veteran US diplomat and now foreign policy adviser
0:00:39 > 0:00:42to the Clinton campaign, Nicholas Burns.
0:00:42 > 0:00:47Is the Clinton worldview out of step with America's mood?
0:01:16 > 0:01:18Nick Burns, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:18 > 0:01:22Thank you, Stephen.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25Let's start with this piling in on Donald Trump that we see
0:01:25 > 0:01:28from pretty much all the sort of Washington and establishment
0:01:28 > 0:01:35foreign policy and national security figures in the United States.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37Frankly, that just helps Trump's narrative, doesn't it?
0:01:37 > 0:01:40He's the antiestablishment candidate and this simply proves he's riling
0:01:41 > 0:01:45up the establishment.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47Well, it may help Donald Trump with his supporters
0:01:47 > 0:01:50who are on the far right, but the great majority of Americans
0:01:50 > 0:01:53who vote are in the middle, they are centre right, centre left,
0:01:53 > 0:01:55they are independents.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58They want to see somebody who has the capacity to govern who has
0:01:58 > 0:02:01a modicum of knowledge about the world, if not much more,
0:02:01 > 0:02:03and who has the temperament to lead.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07And you are seeing a mass exodus of senior Republicans this week,
0:02:07 > 0:02:11this extraordinary letter signed by 50 Republicans who have served
0:02:11 > 0:02:15all of our presidents in recent decades, saying he would be the most
0:02:15 > 0:02:17reckless American president in our history and they are questioning
0:02:17 > 0:02:18a couple of things.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21They are questioning his denigration of Nato, his appeasement
0:02:21 > 0:02:23of Vladimir Putin, and the extraordinary lack
0:02:23 > 0:02:32of judgement here is shown and the capacity, the lack
0:02:32 > 0:02:35of capacity to know even basic facts about how the world works.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37We have never had a presidential candidate like this.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39Well, I have seen the letter, of course.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42The interesting thing about the letter is that the names
0:02:42 > 0:02:45on the end of it are longer than the words in the letter itself.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48Those names, you know, let's talk about a few of them.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51People like Michael Hayden, Negroponte, a whole bunch of people,
0:02:51 > 0:02:53Tom Ridge, I suppose, all of them connected,
0:02:53 > 0:02:57redolent of the era of George W Bush.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00And I don't think Americans really regard those names as terribly
0:03:00 > 0:03:03credible any more.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05Oh, I disagree.
0:03:05 > 0:03:07Some of these people, like John Negroponte you mentioned,
0:03:07 > 0:03:09he was a career foreign service officer, he has
0:03:09 > 0:03:11served our Democratic presidents, as did I,
0:03:11 > 0:03:14as well as Republican presidents.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17These are people who were part of the successes of the George HW
0:03:17 > 0:03:21Bush administration when the Cold War ended.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24Because of your worldview, you would rather talk
0:03:24 > 0:03:26about George Bush senior, but I am more interested in talking
0:03:26 > 0:03:34about George Bush, the son, George W Bush to the country
0:03:34 > 0:03:37about George Bush, the son, George W Bush took the country
0:03:37 > 0:03:40into Iraq, I think the consensus view across the United States now,
0:03:40 > 0:03:42especially amongst the public, is that that was a terrible,
0:03:42 > 0:03:43terrible mistake.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45Donald Trump's message is the people who made that ghastly mistake,
0:03:45 > 0:03:48which has repercussions to this day, not least in the creation
0:03:48 > 0:03:51of the Islamic State organisation, these people are telling
0:03:51 > 0:03:52you how to vote.
0:03:52 > 0:03:56Why would you listen to them?
0:03:56 > 0:04:00And this is the Donald Trump who supported the Iraq war in 2003
0:04:00 > 0:04:02and now is lying about the fact that he did that.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06He has changed the story completely.
0:04:06 > 0:04:08What you are seeing is, and the Democratic party
0:04:08 > 0:04:11are rallying around Hillary Clinton, and she is in a very strong
0:04:11 > 0:04:12political position right now.
0:04:12 > 0:04:19What you are seeing in their Republican party,
0:04:19 > 0:04:22the 50 people who signed this letter this week but also the leadership
0:04:22 > 0:04:25in the house and Senate is a real lack of support for Donald Trump.
0:04:25 > 0:04:28He has shown on this campaign trail that he doesn't have
0:04:28 > 0:04:29the fitness for office.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31Whenever someone takes, criticises him, he responds
0:04:31 > 0:04:40in a rational way, he doesn't seem to be cool under pressure,
0:04:40 > 0:04:43he doesn't seem to be learning in this campaign and he has been
0:04:43 > 0:04:44in it for one year.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47He has alienated all Muslims, he has alienated arguably our closest
0:04:47 > 0:04:50friend in the world, Mexico, and he has taken these
0:04:50 > 0:04:52outrageous positions that would isolate the United States,
0:04:52 > 0:04:53bring us back to an autarkic economy.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56It is exactly the wrong way forward in this century.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58I think the tide has turned in this campaign.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00Let me remind everybody that you have offered advice
0:05:00 > 0:05:03to the Clinton camp, so you are not entirely neutral
0:05:03 > 0:05:05on this particular issue.
0:05:05 > 0:05:10I am not neutral at all, I support Hillary Clinton.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12Let's take down, if there is such a thing, Trumpism,
0:05:13 > 0:05:15and what its core messages.
0:05:15 > 0:05:19You can point to all of the "gaffes" and all of the comments which many
0:05:19 > 0:05:22commentators regard is completely crazy but I would put it to you that
0:05:22 > 0:05:25if you get down to what Trumpism is really about, there's a message
0:05:25 > 0:05:29there that resonates with many American people.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32That is, you know, putting America first, getting out
0:05:32 > 0:05:37of many of the expensive commitments which, in Donald Trump's terms,
0:05:37 > 0:05:41do not work in America's interest, and actually being much more
0:05:41 > 0:05:49transactional and realistic about America's place in the world.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51And that is not where the American people are.
0:05:51 > 0:05:55I think what he has been able to do, you saw this with Bernie Sanders
0:05:55 > 0:05:58on the left, there are a group of Americans who had been left
0:05:58 > 0:05:59behind by globalisation.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03Who have been priced out of the job market, whose jobs are no longer
0:06:03 > 0:06:04there because they worked in the manufacturing industries
0:06:04 > 0:06:06of several decades ago.
0:06:06 > 0:06:08And obviously whoever is elected president,
0:06:08 > 0:06:11and I hope that is going to be Hillary Clinton, are going to have
0:06:11 > 0:06:23to speak to those people and that is why you have seen
0:06:23 > 0:06:25Donald Trump too well but his electorate is
0:06:25 > 0:06:27on
0:06:27 > 0:06:29the conservative right, the great majority
0:06:29 > 0:06:32of Americans are in the middle and if you look at the public
0:06:32 > 0:06:34opinion polls, Americans don't want to dig a moat around
0:06:34 > 0:06:36the country and pull up the drawbridges is,
0:06:36 > 0:06:40there is a basis of support in this country for an active American
0:06:40 > 0:06:41leadership role in the world.
0:06:41 > 0:06:42Now, there are problems.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44Forget the interruption but you mentioned opinion polls,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47so I'm going to dive in with a very recent one.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49Nearly six in ten Americans, 57%, want the US to "Deal
0:06:49 > 0:06:52with its own problems and let other countries deal
0:06:52 > 0:06:54with their own problems as best they can."
0:06:54 > 0:06:56I can't think of a much better encapsulation of Trumpism.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00Well, there are a lot of polls, I have just looked at the you polls
0:07:00 > 0:07:03-- Pew polls, and the Pew polls are among the most credible
0:07:03 > 0:07:05and the United States, they sure Americans support Nato
0:07:05 > 0:07:08and Donald Trump has denigrated Nato, that Americans believe we had
0:07:08 > 0:07:14to be true and faithful to our allies in Europe and in Asia,
0:07:14 > 0:07:25that is what the polls show and the problem with Donald Trump,
0:07:25 > 0:07:27he has the sweeping denunciations of everything
0:07:27 > 0:07:27that
0:07:27 > 0:07:29Republican, as well as Democratic presidents, have stood
0:07:29 > 0:07:31for for the last six or seven decades.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34I think it is too blatant a criticism of the entire post-war
0:07:34 > 0:07:37foreign policy of the United States and it doesn't strike me
0:07:37 > 0:07:40as reasonable, or one that is quick to give a success.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43One of the things about Donald Trump that many Americans perhaps
0:07:43 > 0:07:45are interested in is that he is actually prepared to tell it
0:07:45 > 0:07:48like it is, not just to America's rivals and perhaps enemies around
0:07:48 > 0:07:50the world, but also to America's friends.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53When he to other Nato members, if you are not prepared
0:07:53 > 0:07:56to pool your weight financially, then why should we offer our men
0:07:56 > 0:07:59and material to you and lay down our lives for you?
0:07:59 > 0:08:01He reflects a widespread feeling amongst Americans that you,
0:08:01 > 0:08:04for far too long, have had to be a ridiculously disproportionate
0:08:04 > 0:08:10portion of the burden for defending Western Europe.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13I'm a former American ambassador to Nato and there is no question
0:08:13 > 0:08:16we have been arguing with the Europeans to do much more
0:08:16 > 0:08:19in terms of defence spending but...
0:08:19 > 0:08:20It hasn't worked.
0:08:20 > 0:08:31Maybe it takes a Donald Trump to get the message through.
0:08:31 > 0:08:33I was going to give a data point.
0:08:33 > 0:08:35Since Vladimir Putin invaders Crimea in 2014,
0:08:35 > 0:08:3720 of the 28 allies have actually increased their defence budgets,
0:08:37 > 0:08:40Britain is at 2%, France is near, Poland and the Baltic states
0:08:40 > 0:08:41are all pushing 2%.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44You know better than me, Nick Burns, four nations right now
0:08:44 > 0:08:46meet the 2% threshold, which means an awful lot
0:08:46 > 0:08:47of countries do not.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50Maybe Donald Trump is going to change the dynamic.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52Five countries meet the threshold right now, 20 of the 28
0:08:52 > 0:08:54are increasing their defence spending, so the trends
0:08:54 > 0:08:56are on the right direction.
0:08:56 > 0:09:00We all want Europe to do more but Nato is not a protection racket,
0:09:00 > 0:09:03we are not running this the way the Mafia would run an organisation.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07If a country is at 1.6% of GDP on his defence and it is invaded
0:09:07 > 0:09:09by Russia, of course the United States and Nato
0:09:09 > 0:09:12are going to protect our country and I think the most reckless thing
0:09:12 > 0:09:15that Donald Trump has said in this campaign and foreign policy
0:09:15 > 0:09:18is that we would not back up our article five,
0:09:18 > 0:09:20that is an attack on one is an attack on all,
0:09:20 > 0:09:21commitment in Nato.
0:09:21 > 0:09:24He has also said that he might consider recognising the Russian
0:09:24 > 0:09:26occupation of Crimea.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29This stands on its head the foreign policy of Ronald Reagan,
0:09:29 > 0:09:30Dwight D Eisenhower, all of our Republican
0:09:30 > 0:09:33presidents as well as our Democratic presidents.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36He is completely out of the mainstream and I think
0:09:36 > 0:09:38he is out of his depth on foreign policy.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41All right, well you have had your pop-up Donald Trump
0:09:41 > 0:09:44and I suspected you would, but I am actually perhaps more
0:09:44 > 0:09:45interested in hearing you analyse Hillary Clinton's worldview
0:09:45 > 0:09:48and foreign policy vision.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51One of her problems is that she seems to have
0:09:51 > 0:10:00learned little from Iraq.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03She now describes her vote in support of the Iraq war
0:10:03 > 0:10:05as her greatest regret
0:10:05 > 0:10:08and her biggest mistake and yet here she is still a candidate
0:10:08 > 0:10:10who appears to be offering the American people and vision based
0:10:10 > 0:10:12on militarism, hawkishness and intervention around the world.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15Has she learned nothing?
0:10:15 > 0:10:18I think she has learned quite a lot if you read her memoirs of her time
0:10:19 > 0:10:20as Secretary of State.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23I think a lot of us, that includes me, I was in Government
0:10:23 > 0:10:26at the time of the Iraq war, regret our support of the Iraq war
0:10:26 > 0:10:28and we have to learn from it.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31I would not describe Secretary Clinton the
0:10:31 > 0:10:32way you just have.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35She is a proponent for American engagement in the world.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37That means being true to our allies.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39It means having an effective military policy and strength.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41But she is not someone who is articulating American
0:10:41 > 0:10:44military intervention around the world.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47In fact, she is someone opposed to Donald Trump who is saying
0:10:47 > 0:10:53we have got to have alliances in the world and we have to lead
0:10:53 > 0:10:55with diplomacy.
0:10:55 > 0:11:00Donald Trump would have us withdraw from global leadership
0:11:00 > 0:11:02and that is the antithesis of Hillary Clinton.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05Yes, but you have to judge her on her words.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07Syria, for example, if you look at the record,
0:11:07 > 0:11:10back in 2012, she wanted to provide weapons to the anti-Assad rebels.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13In 2013, she ultimately made it plain that she disagreed with Obama
0:11:13 > 0:11:17on the question of military intervention after Assad's alleged
0:11:17 > 0:11:21use, we all seem to think he did use them, chemical weapons.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25It was described as a red line but in the end Obama backed away
0:11:25 > 0:11:25from military intervention.
0:11:25 > 0:11:30Hillary Clinton.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33She thought was a mistake and much more recently she said this
0:11:33 > 0:11:34of the Syria
0:11:34 > 0:11:37policy of the administration, "It is time to begin a new phase,
0:11:37 > 0:11:42to intensify and proper our efforts.
0:11:42 > 0:11:44to intensify and broaden our efforts.
0:11:44 > 0:11:46We should have no illusions about how difficult
0:11:46 > 0:11:49but if we press forward, in the air and on the ground,
0:11:49 > 0:11:51as well as diplomatically, I believe we can crush Isis."
0:11:51 > 0:11:53Again, come back to the lessons learned from Iraq.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55Has she not learned them?
0:11:55 > 0:11:58These are mainstream views with which most of our European
0:11:58 > 0:12:00allies and certainly most of the Sunni-Arab countries
0:12:00 > 0:12:03would agree and I certainly agree with her on every example that
0:12:03 > 0:12:06you cited, Stephen.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09Back in 2012, we know now that she was part of a group,
0:12:09 > 0:12:11including Leon Panetta and David Petraeus advocating not
0:12:11 > 0:12:17that the United States intervened militarily in Syria that we actually
0:12:17 > 0:12:19arm those Sunni rebels that could oppose the Assad regime
0:12:19 > 0:12:26and the Assad regime has killed most of the civilians in Syria.
0:12:26 > 0:12:30In 2013, if you do draw a line in the sand as President Obama did,
0:12:30 > 0:12:33and then if Assad crossed it and you do nothing, that is a symbol
0:12:33 > 0:12:36of weakness and so I think actually she is in the mainstream
0:12:36 > 0:12:39of what most Democrats and Republicans here in our country
0:12:39 > 0:12:42and I think in many European capitals, think would have been
0:12:42 > 0:12:44the right way to go in Syria.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46Stephen, looking forward...
0:12:46 > 0:12:49On, before we look forward, it is important to learn
0:12:49 > 0:12:50the lessons of history.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53One of the most important lessons may because all the way back
0:12:53 > 0:13:04to the 1990s, American arms supplies to the jihadist in Afghanistan.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06You're now telling me that you and Hillary Clinton,
0:13:06 > 0:13:09the women you want to see in the White House, believe it
0:13:09 > 0:13:12would have been sensible in 2012 to be pouring weapons into Sunni
0:13:12 > 0:13:13fighters in Syria?
0:13:13 > 0:13:15Do you really mean that, given the inevitability that
0:13:15 > 0:13:18many of those weapons would have ended up in the hands of fighters
0:13:18 > 0:13:21who now proclaimed loyalty to Islamic State?
0:13:21 > 0:13:30I think it made sense in 2012 and it still makes sense in 2016 that
0:13:30 > 0:13:33if there are Syrians in the Sunni majority Arab community in Syria
0:13:33 > 0:13:35who want to defend themselves, who are not part of
0:13:35 > 0:13:36the Islamic State,...
0:13:36 > 0:13:40It's not for you to decide who is not or a part of Islamic
0:13:40 > 0:13:40State.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42That is my point.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44You in America surely have to accept, experience tells you,
0:13:44 > 0:13:46from Afghanistan right across the Middle East,
0:13:46 > 0:13:48that you cannot dictate the rules of the game in these conflicts.
0:13:52 > 0:13:56Stephen, I did not say that the United States believes it
0:13:56 > 0:13:59should dictate the rules of the game, I just simply said that
0:13:59 > 0:14:01in the Civil War that has produced 12 million homeless,
0:14:01 > 0:14:03the destruction of an entire country, the greatest
0:14:03 > 0:14:05humanitarian crisis of our time, we shouldn't stand by.
0:14:05 > 0:14:10No-one in this country, my country, is advocating
0:14:10 > 0:14:13an American military intervention but what we are advocating is two
0:14:13 > 0:14:15things, help those moderate Sunni rebels who want to defend
0:14:15 > 0:14:21their homes and their villages and their towns against this
0:14:21 > 0:14:22rapacious government in Damascus and its Russian,
0:14:22 > 0:14:23Iranian and Hezbollah allies.
0:14:23 > 0:14:26Number two, you've got to the refugees.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30That means we have got to get humanitarian aid workers
0:14:30 > 0:14:32by the United Nations and NGOs into Aleppo,
0:14:32 > 0:14:36which is being besieged right now, pressure the Russians
0:14:36 > 0:14:41and the Chinese to start vetoing those aid columns
0:14:41 > 0:14:43at the United Nations, this is not an intervention
0:14:43 > 0:14:46of a type and it was wrong, I think, in retrospect,
0:14:46 > 0:14:47of Iraq in 2003.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50It is simply trying to deal responsibly with the greatest crisis
0:14:50 > 0:14:57in the Middle East and Syria and Iraq.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00It also means, Stephen, we have got to fight Islamic State
0:15:00 > 0:15:03and that is what Europe and the Arab world and the US
0:15:03 > 0:15:04are trying to do.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07I guess what I am picking away at is not so much the differences
0:15:07 > 0:15:09between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, I think
0:15:09 > 0:15:11they are pretty obvious, but actually the differences
0:15:11 > 0:15:14between Hillary Clinton and the eight years of foreign
0:15:14 > 0:15:16policy making we have seen from Barack Obama.
0:15:16 > 0:15:21There is a very interesting book that has been out in the US
0:15:21 > 0:15:31for a little while called Alter Egos by a New York Times writer
0:15:31 > 0:15:34and he says, "Clinton and Obama have come to embody competing visions
0:15:34 > 0:15:37of America's role in the world.
0:15:37 > 0:15:38His vision, restrained, hers hard-edged."
0:15:38 > 0:15:39Is that fair?
0:15:39 > 0:15:41I don't think so.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44I'm reading the book right now and I have a great respect for Mark
0:15:45 > 0:15:46at the New York Times.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49I think there is going to be a lot of continuity between Barack Obama
0:15:49 > 0:15:51and Hillary Clinton on foreign policy.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53But obviously there will be differences as well.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55In this case, Syria and Iraq, President Obama has actually formed
0:15:55 > 0:15:57an international coalition to fight the Islamic State,
0:15:57 > 0:16:00mainly through the air, in Iraq and Syria but now
0:16:00 > 0:16:06you have a problem, as you know, of the Islamic State metastasising.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09They are in Libya, they control about 180 kilometres of coastline.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11They have a lot of influence in Boko Haram in Nigeria,
0:16:11 > 0:16:14so this is going to be a long struggle.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17The European people's countries have to be involved and are and we had
0:16:17 > 0:16:18to be involved.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20I think that will be a major pursuit, if Secretary Clinton
0:16:20 > 0:16:23is elected, and that is continuity with Barack Obama.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25Coming back to Obama.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28He famously said, and I cannot repeat all of his words
0:16:28 > 0:16:33on here because there was a little bit of rudeness in it,
0:16:33 > 0:16:35he said, "My mantra is, don't do stupid..."
0:16:35 > 0:16:38And then a word I'm not going to use.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42The danger, it seems to me, is that Hillary Clinton with a much
0:16:42 > 0:16:47more combative worldview, we are not just talking
0:16:47 > 0:16:51about what she wants to do in Libya, but also the way she wants
0:16:51 > 0:16:54to respond to Vladimir Putin in Ukraine and across the piece
0:16:54 > 0:16:56with relationships with Russia, also her stand on the South
0:16:56 > 0:16:59China Sea and relationship with China, she seems to be
0:16:59 > 0:17:01about to put America back into a highly confrontational
0:17:01 > 0:17:09position with the world's other great powers.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11I don't agree with that calculation at all.
0:17:11 > 0:17:14Let's take those two examples, Russia and China.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17I see Secretary Clinton very much supporting what President Obama has
0:17:17 > 0:17:23done in working with the European Union, Angela Merkel,
0:17:23 > 0:17:25we have sanctioned Russia over its illegal annexation
0:17:25 > 0:17:28of Crimea and its division of Ukraine.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31We have put more Nato troops into Poland and the Baltic states
0:17:31 > 0:17:33to show President Putin that we are going to support
0:17:33 > 0:17:35our Nato allies.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38That is an Obama position, it is an Angela Merkel position,
0:17:38 > 0:17:41it is the British position, also supported by the Hillary
0:17:41 > 0:17:41Clinton.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44On the South China Sea, the United States is not looking
0:17:44 > 0:17:47for a military conflict with China.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50But we are looking for freedom of navigation
0:17:50 > 0:17:53and we do want to support the rights of countries like the Philippines
0:17:53 > 0:17:55and Vietnam not to have their sovereign waters trampled
0:17:55 > 0:17:56upon by the Chinese.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00I actually don't see on those two questions a lot of distance
0:18:00 > 0:18:01between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.
0:18:01 > 0:18:03You see, I think I do.
0:18:03 > 0:18:07I think Barack Obama was very mindful that right now,
0:18:07 > 0:18:11the US is not able to be the world's policeman in the way it has been
0:18:11 > 0:18:14before, and you talk about this foreign policy establishment
0:18:14 > 0:18:16that runs through a previous administration, both Bushes,
0:18:16 > 0:18:18and the Clinton Administration as well.
0:18:18 > 0:18:24There was this idea of America being the world's policeman.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27Barack Obama didn't really buy into that, and he's partly not
0:18:27 > 0:18:30buying into it because he recognises power has shifted, economic power
0:18:30 > 0:18:33not least has shifted, and there needs to be another
0:18:33 > 0:18:34paradigm for the United States.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36Hillary Clinton doesn't seem to accept that.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40I really think that is unfair to her.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43I think Secretary Clinton sees what a lot of us see,
0:18:43 > 0:18:46that the United States, by any metric, is still the most
0:18:46 > 0:18:48powerful country in the world and will be for several
0:18:48 > 0:18:50decades to come.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53China is not going to surpass the USA military power or political
0:18:53 > 0:18:55influence and certainly not an economic power.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58Certainly not in terms of the elevation of our economy.
0:18:58 > 0:19:00We have got to lead.
0:19:00 > 0:19:02But you are right, I think there is an acceptance
0:19:02 > 0:19:06here that we have got to evolve and be more multilateral in some
0:19:06 > 0:19:09respects to work in coalitions, a good example of that with the US-
0:19:09 > 0:19:12China cooperation on climate change.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15I don't see a big difference between Hillary Clinton
0:19:15 > 0:19:22and Barack Obama.
0:19:22 > 0:19:29But Hillary Clinton has been throughout her career as senator
0:19:29 > 0:19:33for New York and as Secretary of State, she wants
0:19:33 > 0:19:37the United states to maintain its military power,
0:19:37 > 0:19:44she wants the United States to lead but this is a consensus
0:19:44 > 0:19:51that we have had, whether it is Bill Clinton,
0:19:51 > 0:19:54George W Bush, Barack Obama, and it is who is out
0:19:54 > 0:19:57of the consensus, Donald Trump who is charting a new way that
0:19:57 > 0:20:00would weaken the United States in my opinion.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02One specific thing, and again you speak as a very ardent
0:20:02 > 0:20:05supporter of Hillary Clinton and adviser to her campaign,
0:20:05 > 0:20:07there is a trust problem, isn't there?
0:20:07 > 0:20:10This is perhaps more of an issue inside the United States
0:20:10 > 0:20:12with Hillary Clinton's perception around the world,
0:20:12 > 0:20:16but there is a trust issue and it goes to the use of how private
0:20:16 > 0:20:18e-mail server for top secret, confidential electronic documents
0:20:18 > 0:20:21which she should never have done and which she has now been slammed
0:20:21 > 0:20:23for by the director of the CIA.
0:20:23 > 0:20:24Excuse me, the FBI.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27It also goes to what happened on Benghazi on her watch
0:20:27 > 0:20:29and the loss of American lives which many Americans feel
0:20:29 > 0:20:32that she has never truly given her a full accounting for.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34That is a big trust problem.
0:20:34 > 0:20:36If you look at the public opinion polls, that is certainly
0:20:36 > 0:20:37an issue in this campaign.
0:20:37 > 0:20:38For both candidates.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41I would say, Stephen, that the attack on Hillary Clinton
0:20:41 > 0:20:44on Benghazi, I have looked at it, I am a former career person,
0:20:44 > 0:20:47I have served both parties, I think it just doesn't stand.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50There was no way that the United States could have rescued
0:20:50 > 0:20:52Ambassador Chris Stevens and his colleagues that died that
0:20:52 > 0:20:56night in Benghazi.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59There have been tons of reports, lots of reports on this and I think
0:20:59 > 0:21:03it has been the right wing that has hijacked this issue and has lodged
0:21:03 > 0:21:06unfair attacks on Hillary Clinton, and I don't think it is right.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09I hope the public will be able to get beyond that.
0:21:09 > 0:21:12Certainly there will be a dramatic moment in September and October.
0:21:12 > 0:21:13There are three debates scheduled.
0:21:13 > 0:21:15These two candidates are going to stand side-by-side,
0:21:15 > 0:21:22Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump on stage.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26I think it is going to be pretty clear by September or October
0:21:26 > 0:21:29who is the most trustworthy candidate, who is the most likeable
0:21:29 > 0:21:29candidate.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31It is not going to be Donald Trump.
0:21:31 > 0:21:35His campaign is sinking because of his mendacity
0:21:35 > 0:21:38and because of his unreliability and I think she is someone who can
0:21:38 > 0:21:40be trusted with American power.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42You raise an interesting point there and it is one
0:21:42 > 0:21:44I want to close with.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46You are right, the polls are favouring Hillary Clinton
0:21:46 > 0:21:48big-time right now and it may be the American public chooses
0:21:48 > 0:21:52Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump, for reasons which have nothing to do
0:21:52 > 0:21:54with our conversation with a fairly detailed analysis of the foreign
0:21:54 > 0:21:57policy challenges and strategies of the two candidates.
0:21:57 > 0:21:58Here is a possibility, Hillary wins power
0:21:58 > 0:22:01but she doesn't necessarily have the backing of the American
0:22:01 > 0:22:06people for the more muscular, more competent foreign policy that
0:22:06 > 0:22:08I am trying to persuade you Hillary Clinton seems
0:22:08 > 0:22:10to be pushing.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13In which case, that is a danger for the United States because,
0:22:13 > 0:22:15if there is a disconnect between what the president wants
0:22:15 > 0:22:18to do and what the American people are prepared to wear,
0:22:18 > 0:22:23that makes foreign policy making potentially very dangerous.
0:22:23 > 0:22:28I think you have got a point in that we are a democracy
0:22:28 > 0:22:33and so we have to rely on public support, and what is happening
0:22:33 > 0:22:36in both political campaigns, the Democrat and Republican,
0:22:36 > 0:22:39is that there is not a consensus on whether the United States should
0:22:39 > 0:22:41be engaged or should retreat isolationism.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43There is no consensus on trade and no consensus
0:22:43 > 0:22:46on immigration and refugees.
0:22:46 > 0:22:49If she is elected, and I hope she will be, a President Clinton
0:22:49 > 0:22:53is going to have to deal with those issues and appeal to the American
0:22:53 > 0:22:55people that we have got to have an outward
0:22:55 > 0:22:56looking foreign policy.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59And she has given no indication if she knows how she...
0:22:59 > 0:23:02She has given no indication of how she might go about doing that.
0:23:02 > 0:23:03I don't think that is true.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06I think on refugees, immigration, certainly,
0:23:06 > 0:23:12she has given an indication, and certainly she supports
0:23:12 > 0:23:15an engaged leadership role for the United States.
0:23:15 > 0:23:19I think she is going to provide that leadership but I am agreeing
0:23:19 > 0:23:22with you that this is going to be the major challenge,
0:23:22 > 0:23:25to try to create a stronger basis of American public support
0:23:25 > 0:23:27and congressional support for the kind of role that we have
0:23:28 > 0:23:29to play in the world.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32I think that will be an immediate challenge of her presidency if,
0:23:32 > 0:23:34as I hope, she is elected in November.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37Interesting you say that, and we are almost out of time,
0:23:37 > 0:23:39but give me those issues, then, where you think she faces that
0:23:39 > 0:23:42difficult challenge of knitting together what she truly believes
0:23:42 > 0:23:43with what the American people will wear.
0:23:43 > 0:23:48Keeping our doors open to refugees, making sure that we have a sensible
0:23:48 > 0:23:53immigration bill that can legalise the existence of a lot of people,
0:23:53 > 0:23:56Mexican-Americans in this country, and also making the argument
0:23:56 > 0:24:01that we've got to be smart about our power.
0:24:01 > 0:24:04We have to lead with diplomacy, we have to learn our lessons
0:24:04 > 0:24:06from Iraq, but we have to lead.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08There is a big choice in the selection between
0:24:08 > 0:24:11an isolationist, I think, ignorant Donald Trump, and a strong,
0:24:11 > 0:24:13experienced leader like Hillary Clinton.
0:24:13 > 0:24:16She will have to use that bully pulpit to convince the American
0:24:16 > 0:24:17people that she is right.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20Nick Burns, we have to end there but I thank you very much
0:24:20 > 0:24:21for being an HARDtalk.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25Thank you, Stephen.