0:00:03 > 0:00:06Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:06 > 0:00:07Welcome to Hardtalk.
0:00:07 > 0:00:10I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12One of the bleaker themes of Barack Obama's presidency has
0:00:12 > 0:00:14been the crisis in relations between black America
0:00:15 > 0:00:25and the criminal justice system.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28We've seen unarmed black men shot dead by the police and officers
0:00:28 > 0:00:31gunned down in what appeared to be acts of vengeance.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33A new movement, Black Lives Matter, has given voice to
0:00:33 > 0:00:34anger on the streets.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37Well my guest today is Al Sharpton, the veteran often controversial
0:00:37 > 0:00:38civil rights campaigner.
0:00:38 > 0:00:48Who speaks most effectively for black America today?
0:01:13 > 0:01:15Al Sharpton in New York City, welcome to Hardtalk.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17Thank you.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20Mr Sharpton, you've been working on the cases of individuals
0:01:20 > 0:01:23and their families who have been shot, gunned down by the police,
0:01:23 > 0:01:27for an awful long time.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30I remember you were working with the family of the teenager
0:01:30 > 0:01:33Trayvon Martin back in 2012.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36Since then, matters seem to have gotten worse, not better.
0:01:36 > 0:01:41Why is that?
0:01:41 > 0:01:45I think matters have been recorded more.
0:01:45 > 0:01:50I don't think that they are any worse or better.
0:01:50 > 0:01:54I think that because of social media that we are seeing a lot more,
0:01:54 > 0:01:56what many others have been saying all along,
0:01:56 > 0:01:59you must remember the case of Trayvon Martin was just a couple
0:01:59 > 0:02:02of years ago, which spurred some of the young groups that started,
0:02:02 > 0:02:05then some of them died out, then when Eric Garner happened
0:02:05 > 0:02:07and Ferguson happened with Michael Brown, some new young
0:02:07 > 0:02:10groups went into being and went forward, but my group the NAACP
0:02:10 > 0:02:13and others have been doing this for a long time and were the groups
0:02:13 > 0:02:16that these families called in, so we didn't just work on these
0:02:16 > 0:02:18campaigns, we came in because the families wanted
0:02:21 > 0:02:40to sustain a fight that they knew is a fight bigger than one case.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43There is a systemic problem with policing and the black
0:02:43 > 0:02:51community and it has to be handled with a sustained movement.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54Right, I mean the interesting movement is, yes, you are right,
0:02:54 > 0:02:57the families in many of these cases called you in and other well-known
0:02:57 > 0:03:00figures in the civil rights movement, but out on the streets
0:03:00 > 0:03:02there seemed to be a very different tone, a radicalism,
0:03:02 > 0:03:05a desire for immediate action, which you seem to be out
0:03:05 > 0:03:11of tune with.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15Well, that's a media absurdity.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17The first marches around Trayvon Martin and around
0:03:17 > 0:03:25Eric Garner were our marches.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29We were the ones leading them in the streets.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32What you're trying to confuse is those that may come
0:03:32 > 0:03:34into a movement already started and have a different position,
0:03:34 > 0:03:37they are speaking to a new mood as opposed to some other mood.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39No, they are speaking to different tactics,
0:03:39 > 0:03:42as we on the street are speaking to our tactics, and that's no
0:03:43 > 0:03:44different than in the 1960s.
0:03:44 > 0:03:50Let me finish.
0:03:50 > 0:03:51Let's talk tactics.
0:03:51 > 0:03:53Let me finish.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56There's no difference between Dr King when he was leading
0:03:56 > 0:03:58a movement in the '60s and they wanted to riot,
0:03:58 > 0:04:01he opposed that at the same time.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05There was a Mandela and ANC and PAC, so a lot of times the media tries
0:04:05 > 0:04:15to categorise things wrongly.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19Right, I'll come back to that but before I do pick a way in how
0:04:19 > 0:04:22you see Black Lives Matter and other movements which have developed a lot
0:04:22 > 0:04:23of strength in recent times.
0:04:23 > 0:04:27Why do you think under a black president, a man who served two
0:04:27 > 0:04:29terms, almost eight years in office, that far from resolving some
0:04:29 > 0:04:32of these issues or at least making them look as though they're
0:04:32 > 0:04:35on the way to resolution, as we both agreed they
0:04:35 > 0:04:42are as bad as ever?
0:04:42 > 0:04:44Because I think he inherited a real institutional problem,
0:04:44 > 0:04:47more than anyone preceding him tried to deal with those problems.
0:04:47 > 0:04:49This is the first president that started the commutation of sentences
0:04:49 > 0:04:52for those that were in prison for nonviolent drug crimes,
0:04:52 > 0:04:55that was started and became law way before he came in,
0:04:55 > 0:05:09and he appointed the first black Attorney General and the second one,
0:05:09 > 0:05:13when we never had a black Attorney General in the history
0:05:13 > 0:05:23of the country, that began saying to their prosecutors stop asking
0:05:23 > 0:05:24for these long sentences on nonviolent criminals.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27He was the first president that convened having a task force
0:05:27 > 0:05:30on policing, where he put the civil rights groups like my national group
0:05:30 > 0:05:33and the NAACP on and some of the activists in Black Lives Matter,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36so I think he has had to try and turn around
0:05:36 > 0:05:46some historic negligence.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49What do you say to some of the black intellectuals,
0:05:49 > 0:05:50commentators, guys like Michael Eric Dyson,
0:05:50 > 0:05:54who writes a lot in the New Republic and elsewhere, who have said,
0:05:54 > 0:05:56I grew disillusioned with Obama's timid responses to this racial
0:05:56 > 0:05:58crisis, with how willing he was to disclaim his racial
0:05:58 > 0:06:00affiliation, his slow actions on police problems,
0:06:00 > 0:06:03his reluctance to confront the racial crisis, it has opened up
0:06:03 > 0:06:05a leadership vacuum in the black community.
0:06:05 > 0:06:12Do you simply not buy that?
0:06:12 > 0:06:17I disagree.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20I have a lot of respect for Dr Dyson and he's written respectfully
0:06:20 > 0:06:21of my work.
0:06:21 > 0:06:22I just disagree.
0:06:22 > 0:06:26I think that as one who has dealt with the last two or three
0:06:26 > 0:06:28presidents, I've seen him operate more immediately, more on hands
0:06:28 > 0:06:31and more effectively than any of the last two or three presidents,
0:06:31 > 0:06:40including the Democrats.
0:06:40 > 0:06:41But when he says...
0:06:41 > 0:06:43Leading the fight, how can he lead the fight to himself?
0:06:43 > 0:06:47The fight must be brought to him, which many of us are doing.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49Sometimes we misconstrue him being president with him
0:06:49 > 0:06:56being the leader of black America.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59That's the nub of it, isn't it, because he has said many a time
0:06:59 > 0:07:02after these incidents we've seen, from Ferguson, to Florida,
0:07:02 > 0:07:04to wherever they happen, obviously in Baton Rouge
0:07:04 > 0:07:07and elsewhere, he says time and again, I am not the president
0:07:07 > 0:07:10of black America, but many black people and particularly angry young
0:07:10 > 0:07:11disaffected black people, are saying to themselves,
0:07:11 > 0:07:14what's the point of this historic moment, electing a black president,
0:07:14 > 0:07:31if he won't act in the interests of black America?
0:07:31 > 0:07:34Well, but what is the point if he is operating in the interest
0:07:34 > 0:07:36and is putting historic numbers of people out of jail
0:07:36 > 0:07:42that was incarcerated, is saying let's move forward
0:07:42 > 0:07:44on these policing issues, his Justice Department just found
0:07:44 > 0:07:47in Ferguson and Baltimore for the first time coming down
0:07:47 > 0:07:56on those cities saying there is a systemic police race problem.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59You can always run out on the streets of England and say,
0:07:59 > 0:08:03oh they're not doing anything, but I think to a lot of people that
0:08:03 > 0:08:05are involved in these matters, involved in the cases,
0:08:05 > 0:08:07and the victims themselves, have said no, this president clearly
0:08:07 > 0:08:10is not leading the fight, but has responded better than any
0:08:10 > 0:08:11president we've seen.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13Is it easy to get extreme voices?
0:08:13 > 0:08:18Of course it is.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20I remember I came to London years ago and led marches
0:08:20 > 0:08:24and they interviewed one guy in the back of the line saying
0:08:24 > 0:08:32we ought to burn the town down.
0:08:32 > 0:08:33There was no conflict in leadership.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36It was a choice by the media to decide they wanted to raise
0:08:37 > 0:08:37different extreme voices.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40They have the right to be heard but don't act
0:08:40 > 0:08:41like there's a conflict.
0:08:41 > 0:08:46There a disagreement in tactics.
0:08:46 > 0:08:48Some say Mr Sharpton, some in the black community say
0:08:48 > 0:08:52Al Sharpton used to be the firebrand, he used to be the guy
0:08:52 > 0:08:55that would tell it like it was, but in to Obama in particular
0:08:55 > 0:08:58he spent far too much time cosying up to the guy.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01I believe you've spent what, 60 or so visits to the White House
0:09:01 > 0:09:03talking to Obama, talking to his advisers, right
0:09:03 > 0:09:06inside the system rather than piling in on the side of those
0:09:06 > 0:09:12who desperately want change?
0:09:12 > 0:09:14Well, I think you need to watch your interview
0:09:14 > 0:09:17because you just said the families called me,
0:09:17 > 0:09:19and asked me to come in.
0:09:19 > 0:09:25So obviously they don't see me as one that would not change that.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28You put people who want to get some spotlight in like they are speaking
0:09:28 > 0:09:32for the movement and the victims.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34The victims, as you said, call us in.
0:09:34 > 0:09:39These guys that want to get space criticising and they not only did it
0:09:39 > 0:09:42to me, they've done it to those far greater before me,
0:09:42 > 0:09:43are speaking for who?
0:09:43 > 0:09:45First of all...
0:09:45 > 0:09:50But putting some political analysis on this...
0:09:50 > 0:09:53Please let me finish.
0:09:53 > 0:10:06First of all who are they speaking on behalf to and on what end?
0:10:06 > 0:10:09I've met with the last three or four presidents and every major civil
0:10:09 > 0:10:12rights leader meets with presidents and people to get things done.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14This whole ghettoisation of black leadership,
0:10:14 > 0:10:17to say we're not smart enough to lead in the streets and to go
0:10:17 > 0:10:20into suites to negotiate what we are leading in the streets
0:10:20 > 0:10:21about, is absolutely insulting.
0:10:21 > 0:10:23Of course the people leading the marches and leading
0:10:23 > 0:10:26in the streets like me want to be at the table to say
0:10:26 > 0:10:29that the legislation must be right on policing, that we must
0:10:29 > 0:10:30deal with the problem.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33What the intellectual that you're quoting wants is they want us to be
0:10:33 > 0:10:36assigned to the streets so they can go in and negotiate,
0:10:36 > 0:10:38because they're never coming to the streets.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41They want to talk for us, like we're not intelligent enough
0:10:41 > 0:10:49to speak for ourselves.
0:10:49 > 0:10:52It's not for me to second-guess anybody's motives, it's for me to me
0:10:52 > 0:10:55to try to figure out what it means politically.
0:10:55 > 0:10:58There's a guy called Jamal Watson, who I believe is writing a book
0:10:58 > 0:11:01about you, I think, he certainly spent a lot of time
0:11:01 > 0:11:04studying your career, and he says, I think Al Sharpton is right now
0:11:04 > 0:11:06helping to legitimise Obama and protect him against critics
0:11:06 > 0:11:08who claim that he's not black enough.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11I know you disagree with that, but can you see where that sort
0:11:11 > 0:11:13of opinion is coming from in today's America,
0:11:13 > 0:11:22given what is happening?
0:11:22 > 0:11:24Well first of all I supported President Obama, both when he ran
0:11:24 > 0:11:28the first time and his re-election, so the president, there is no
0:11:28 > 0:11:33secret about that.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36And I disagreed with those that felt his role should be different.
0:11:36 > 0:11:39But that doesn't mean that has anything to do with how we deal
0:11:39 > 0:11:42with and challenge him, both me and the Black Lives Matter
0:11:42 > 0:11:45representatives that are meeting with him, and the NAACP and others.
0:11:45 > 0:11:46You can't have it both ways.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49You can't say that if Sharpton or the NAACP meets with Obama
0:11:49 > 0:11:52they are giving support to the system but if they bring
0:11:52 > 0:11:55in young activists in the same meeting from Black Lives Matter,
0:11:55 > 0:12:02they're not being swallowed up.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05I mean, come on, you can't have it both ways.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08Either we ought to be meeting with the president or we ought not
0:12:08 > 0:12:09be meeting with the president.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12All of us ought to be meeting with the president.
0:12:12 > 0:12:16I think a lot of this is a lot of guys just trying to get
0:12:16 > 0:12:16some face time.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19Well, you've had plenty of face time of your own,
0:12:19 > 0:12:19Mr Sharpton!
0:12:19 > 0:12:23Let's get away from this idea of...
0:12:23 > 0:12:25Again, I didn't break into the studio, you invited me
0:12:25 > 0:12:27in and we're having face time now.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30That's a very fair point, we wanted you on this show and I'm
0:12:30 > 0:12:33delighted we've got you on the show but let's get to a different point.
0:12:33 > 0:12:36We've talked about the intellectual discussion within the black
0:12:36 > 0:12:38community, but let's talk about the intergenerational discussion.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40Here's a really interesting outright simple idea that was put forward
0:12:40 > 0:12:43by a musician called Tef Poe, who was very involved
0:12:43 > 0:12:45in the protests in Ferguson, Missouri, after the killing
0:12:45 > 0:12:54of Michael Brown, and he just said this.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57He said at one point when people interviewed him on the streets
0:12:57 > 0:13:01at a demo, he said, you know what, this ain't your grandparents' civil
0:13:01 > 0:13:03rights movement and there was a thought behind that
0:13:03 > 0:13:05that there is some generational shift going on.
0:13:05 > 0:13:06Would you accept that?
0:13:06 > 0:13:08You've been around for a long time.
0:13:08 > 0:13:10Well, I mean I talk to a lot of them.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12In fact I have young people in my organisation,
0:13:12 > 0:13:15I have the youth director nationally who is 18 years old.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18Again, I think that you'd have to distinguish when they say that,
0:13:18 > 0:13:20what part of the grandparents' civil rights movement
0:13:20 > 0:13:21they're talking about?
0:13:21 > 0:13:24You had the black power movement who believed in self defence,
0:13:24 > 0:13:26you had the Black Panthers movement that believed in self defence,
0:13:26 > 0:13:29you have Martin Luther King that believed in nonviolence,
0:13:29 > 0:13:32you had the NAACP that fought in legal rights so again we're not
0:13:32 > 0:13:35talking about a monolith and I think a lot of the media doesn't drill
0:13:35 > 0:13:41down and say exactly what you talk about.
0:13:41 > 0:13:44Our grandparents' movement, in my case it would be my parents,
0:13:44 > 0:13:47I'm old enough to be the rapper you talk about's father,
0:13:47 > 0:13:50so he might be talking about my fathers, their generation
0:13:50 > 0:13:52had as many differences as this generation does now,
0:13:52 > 0:13:59all the younger generation.
0:13:59 > 0:14:01Like I said, my 18-year-old youth director Mary Pat Hector,
0:14:01 > 0:14:04who runs the youth movement out of the national network,
0:14:04 > 0:14:06she disagrees with a lot of the rappers.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08So who speaks for young black America?
0:14:08 > 0:14:14Who speaks for older black America?
0:14:14 > 0:14:15Who speaks for elderly black America?
0:14:15 > 0:14:17The same that always did.
0:14:17 > 0:14:19It's been different voices that speak at the same time,
0:14:19 > 0:14:22as they do in Europe, as they do around the world.
0:14:22 > 0:14:24As they did in the movement in South Africa.
0:14:24 > 0:14:26There is nothing new about that.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28Some in the media try to say we're going to choose this
0:14:28 > 0:14:32or that and it's really funny, it's comical.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35I just wonder whether you fear that some of the voices,
0:14:35 > 0:14:37let's call them the more radical street protests,
0:14:37 > 0:14:39direct action voices, do you worry that they are fostering
0:14:39 > 0:14:42an atmosphere that could produce a lot more violence?
0:14:42 > 0:14:48I'm against violence.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50I certainly have said that all my life.
0:14:50 > 0:14:54I think that in many cases we have seen that down through the years
0:14:54 > 0:14:57and I have always denounced it no matter what is the generation.
0:14:57 > 0:15:02When I was called into Ferguson by the family and we started
0:15:02 > 0:15:08the first marches, it wasn't just young folks that were out
0:15:08 > 0:15:11there angry, there were people my age and older that were angry.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14I think we cannot make violence just generational and I think we can't
0:15:14 > 0:15:17condone it under any measure.
0:15:17 > 0:15:21I think there are a lot of young people out there saying we're not
0:15:21 > 0:15:27going to have violence.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29When you look at the movement on college campuses last year
0:15:29 > 0:15:31for example, the University of Missouri and others,
0:15:31 > 0:15:34that fought against the racial symbolism of having slave masters'
0:15:34 > 0:15:36names and other things, they were totally non-violent
0:15:36 > 0:15:39and these young people were younger than the activists that you're
0:15:39 > 0:15:44talking about in Ferguson.
0:15:44 > 0:15:45On college campuses.
0:15:45 > 0:15:49They were not part of that movement and they spread all over the country
0:15:49 > 0:15:51on college campuses, so it's not generational, it's tactical.
0:15:51 > 0:15:52Let's talk politics.
0:15:52 > 0:15:55If we're going to talk tactics it's important to talk
0:15:55 > 0:15:57about national politics.
0:15:57 > 0:15:59Right now you're obviously in campaign season for
0:15:59 > 0:16:00the November presidential election.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03The Black Lives Matter movement which we've talked about quite a bit
0:16:03 > 0:16:06in this interview has made it very plain it is not interested
0:16:06 > 0:16:08in playing a role in mainstream politics.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11That is not what they do and they're not going to endorse either Clinton
0:16:11 > 0:16:17or Trump before November.
0:16:17 > 0:16:21Do you think that's wise, or not?
0:16:21 > 0:16:25Well first of all you have to talk about what part of that movement,
0:16:25 > 0:16:28because that movement has been as they say organic and leaderless
0:16:28 > 0:16:31because one of the prominent voices in that movement ran for mayor
0:16:31 > 0:16:33of Baltimore - which is exactly engaged in electoral politics.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36So let's not act like it's one organisation with one leadership
0:16:36 > 0:16:38thrust like other models that they don't agree with,
0:16:38 > 0:16:43like the NAACP.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46I was speaking of Alicia Garza, one of the founders of the movement
0:16:46 > 0:16:49and she said the endorsement goes to the protest movement itself
0:16:49 > 0:16:54that we have built.
0:16:54 > 0:16:56Other voices that have identified that movement are running
0:16:56 > 0:16:58for office, one just ran for the mayor of Baltimore.
0:16:58 > 0:17:00Cut to the chase.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04Is it wise to stay out of this and say you know what,
0:17:04 > 0:17:06we don't believe in any of these politicians and we're not
0:17:06 > 0:17:08going to endorse either Trump or Clinton?
0:17:08 > 0:17:11Well I think that what you'd have to question is then how do
0:17:11 > 0:17:14we get our goals in terms of new legislation, which all others
0:17:14 > 0:17:16agree that we need to deal with independent prosecutors
0:17:16 > 0:17:25and deal with demilitarisation of police and other matters that
0:17:25 > 0:17:33all others agree on, how do we do that without putting
0:17:33 > 0:17:36people in office, that the only way you're going to get new legislation
0:17:36 > 0:17:38is to have new legislators.
0:17:38 > 0:17:40But at the same time I don't think you dismiss Alicia Garza's
0:17:40 > 0:17:43frustration or others' frustration saying that I've not seen
0:17:43 > 0:17:46these people deliver, and I think that those of us that do
0:17:46 > 0:17:50believe in using the political process have to raise to these
0:17:50 > 0:17:53people that you are causing this frustration, but at the same time
0:17:53 > 0:17:56one of the prominent things that happened in Mrs Hillary Clinton's
0:17:56 > 0:18:01campaign is she was able to get the victims' mothers
0:18:01 > 0:18:03to come out and campaign, the mother of Eric Garner,
0:18:03 > 0:18:10the mother of Michael Brown, the mother of Trayvon Martin.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13They are the ones that went out and campaigned for her, not even me,
0:18:13 > 0:18:17and said vote for Hillary Clinton because they feel the way to get
0:18:17 > 0:18:19justice for their family, their blood, was doing this.
0:18:19 > 0:18:24So I think there's respectful disagreement.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26Are you endorsing Clinton or not?
0:18:26 > 0:18:27I've not made any endorsement.
0:18:27 > 0:18:30I'm not to Miss Garza's point of saying don't vote,
0:18:30 > 0:18:32I will certainly probably make an endorsement before the election,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35but at this point I'm concentrating more on trying to reverse
0:18:35 > 0:18:38the new attempts to suppress the vote with voting laws,
0:18:38 > 0:18:44and I didn't want to do that as a surrogate for a campaign.
0:18:44 > 0:18:48I just wondered if you haven't endorsed anyone because looking
0:18:48 > 0:18:58at your record, you've got a record of actually being pretty close
0:18:58 > 0:19:00to Donald Trump as well as Hillary Clinton.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03You've certainly met Clinton many times and she's expressed support
0:19:03 > 0:19:06for your movement, but Donald Trump tweeted a while ago a picture
0:19:06 > 0:19:09of you and him saying, Al Sharpton loves Trump
0:19:09 > 0:19:11because he knows I get him, that others don't, and also you've
0:19:12 > 0:19:21had plenty of meetings with Trump.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25You said you don't dislike the guy even though you don't
0:19:25 > 0:19:26like many of his positions?
0:19:26 > 0:19:30I have met with Donald Trump down through the years when Donald Trump
0:19:30 > 0:19:32was a Democrat and played like he was a liberal
0:19:32 > 0:19:35and was booking James Brown, who was like a father to me,
0:19:35 > 0:19:38in his showrooms, but I have absolutely denounced Donald Trump's
0:19:38 > 0:19:40racist comments and I've met 100 times more with Hillary Clinton,
0:19:40 > 0:19:43who I supported for US Senator, I supported her husband
0:19:43 > 0:19:46and her when she was in the White House and Hillary Clinton
0:19:46 > 0:19:49just spoke at the convention in April, so there's no sane person
0:19:49 > 0:19:51that thinks that Donald Trump and I are close friends.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54Donald Trump and I knew each other down through the years.
0:19:54 > 0:19:58He's a big New York businessman who was a Democrat, who used
0:19:58 > 0:20:03to do things.
0:20:03 > 0:20:08I've also marched on Donald Trump, because Donald Trump was the main
0:20:08 > 0:20:11adversary we dealt with in the Central Park five case and I led
0:20:11 > 0:20:16the marches on his office about that.
0:20:16 > 0:20:22I'm a little bit confused.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25Having used the word racist about Donald Trump's positions,
0:20:25 > 0:20:28you're still saying to me you're not right now endorsing a candidate.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31How can you believe one of the two candidates is racist and yet
0:20:31 > 0:20:35not endorse the other?
0:20:35 > 0:20:36You weren't listening.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39I just say that I choose not to have a partisan view to confuse
0:20:39 > 0:20:42people on why I'm voting against voter suppression and that
0:20:42 > 0:20:45I will be probably endorsing, but I want to first finish what I'm
0:20:45 > 0:20:47doing around voter suppression, I said that to you
0:20:47 > 0:20:51a few minutes ago.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54So maybe because I take my role as a civil rights activist more
0:20:54 > 0:20:56important than a party person is why I would say
0:20:56 > 0:20:59I would do my endorsement after we deal with these legal
0:20:59 > 0:21:07rights around voter suppression.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10We don't know how close the race is going to be.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13Some polls suggest right now it's not going to be that close,
0:21:13 > 0:21:16but received wisdom suggests the polls can tighten very quickly.
0:21:16 > 0:21:17In key states like Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania,
0:21:17 > 0:21:19the black vote could well be hugely important.
0:21:19 > 0:21:21You're talking about voter registration and turning
0:21:21 > 0:21:27out the vote.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29Do you believe that in this election America's black communities
0:21:29 > 0:21:32are going to vote in greater numbers than usual?
0:21:32 > 0:21:35The question is can they vote, which is why we're concentrating
0:21:35 > 0:21:36on voter suppression, that they've changed voting
0:21:36 > 0:21:39regulations in 17 states, three of which have now been turned
0:21:39 > 0:21:41around by the court, but you have 14 states that
0:21:42 > 0:21:47have new laws.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49Many of them are the states you are referring to,
0:21:49 > 0:21:53so the question before you get to will there be a big turnout
0:21:53 > 0:21:56is if there is a big turnout will they be allowed to vote
0:21:56 > 0:21:59if they don't have the new regulated ID, which is why I opt to deal
0:21:59 > 0:22:06with that before I opt to deal with telling people to come out
0:22:06 > 0:22:09and vote for a candidate, that they may not be qualified
0:22:09 > 0:22:12to vote at all if we don't turn a lot of this around.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15You know what, when we talk about this, you talk about voter
0:22:15 > 0:22:17suppression which you see as clearly discriminatory,
0:22:17 > 0:22:20we talk about the criminal justice and law enforcement systems,
0:22:20 > 0:22:21which you see as clearly discriminatory.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24Do you believe today Mr Sharpton, after what, pretty much five decades
0:22:24 > 0:22:27in the civil rights business, that America is any less racist
0:22:27 > 0:22:32today than it was when you set out?
0:22:32 > 0:22:40I don't believe that America is in a post-racial era.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42I think we've seen improvement.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45When I started as a kid, when I was 12 years
0:22:45 > 0:22:53old in the aftermath of Dr King's organisation,
0:22:53 > 0:22:58we were in the back of the bus literally in parts of the South,
0:22:58 > 0:23:00though I'm from the North, literally within three or four years
0:23:00 > 0:23:03had the right of vote, clearly we've made some progress,
0:23:03 > 0:23:06but I don't think we've gone anywhere near a fair and equal
0:23:06 > 0:23:08society and I don't think racist attitudes have changed.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11But I'm not looking for people to love me.
0:23:11 > 0:23:14I'm looking for people not to be able to in any way abuse me
0:23:14 > 0:23:16without equal protection under the law and in any way
0:23:16 > 0:23:19limit my opportunities.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22I think that that we still have a challenge, but to say
0:23:22 > 0:23:28we haven't made progress, I think is not true.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31To say we made a lot of progress and we are there now
0:23:31 > 0:23:38in a post-racial generation, I think is absurd.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41And I remember when I saw President Obama are elected,
0:23:41 > 0:23:44who I supported, people said we're not going to need the Al Sharptons
0:23:44 > 0:23:46anymore and the civil rights campaigners, and it seems
0:23:46 > 0:23:49like they had to take that back and that's why families still call
0:23:49 > 0:23:52us, because we still haven't solved a lot of the problems,
0:23:52 > 0:23:56but the fact that we have dealt with some of them is what gives me
0:23:56 > 0:24:01the faith and the strength to keep going fighting.
0:24:01 > 0:24:02We have to end there.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05Al Sharpton, thank you very much for being on Hardtalk.
0:24:05 > 0:24:09Thank you.
0:24:33 > 0:24:34Hello there.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36Plenty to smile about with the weather story over
0:24:36 > 0:24:38the next few days.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40I'm sure farmers will be happy, this Weather Watcher's picture
0:24:40 > 0:24:43showing gathering in the harvest on Sunday.