:00:00. > :00:26.Coming up next on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:27. > :00:40.Were doing about 150,000 a day. Can it go higher? It can. It overshadows
:00:41. > :00:49.everything else. Alberta is producing some of the dirtiest oil
:00:50. > :00:55.in the world. If we were all like that, the world would be in trouble.
:00:56. > :01:07.It drops these are huge burning embers. There is enough seek oil
:01:08. > :01:11.beneath my feet to me in Canada has the third-largest
:01:12. > :01:13.oil third-largest reserves can deliver on its climate
:01:14. > :01:23.change commitments while continuing to pump out huge amounts of oil.
:01:24. > :01:46.welcome to my home. A very strange pleasure to be here. (MUSIC
:01:47. > :01:51.PLAYING). . 6am at Calgary airport, I joined the ranks of Canada or your
:01:52. > :02:11.commuters, the thousands who fly in to the vast oilfields for weeks at a
:02:12. > :02:18.time. My guide is the executive vice president of Cenovus Energy, in
:02:19. > :02:25.charge of oil sands production. We drive through miles of forest, Elks
:02:26. > :02:37.and caribou, but underneath this wilderness is the biggest tar sands
:02:38. > :02:45.or the reserve in the world. We are in the southern end of the deposit
:02:46. > :03:11.stop we are currently producing 160,000 barrels a day. Let's get it
:03:12. > :03:20.on. Cenovus Energy, this plant is a state-of-the-art oil system
:03:21. > :03:31.extraction which belts melds the beach and within. A network of
:03:32. > :03:37.pipelines runs through hundreds of square kilometres of forest. Cenovus
:03:38. > :03:49.Energy promotes this as responsible production. No vast scars in the
:03:50. > :03:57.landscape, no toxic lakes of waste. But it is highly energy intensive.
:03:58. > :04:00.It disturbs one of the great wildernesses and produces millions
:04:01. > :04:09.of barrels of fossil fuels and millions of tons of carbon emission.
:04:10. > :04:11.It enriches Cenovus Energy and the economy but what does it do to the
:04:12. > :04:30.planet? This is really the sharp end of the
:04:31. > :04:36.operation, literally. LAUGHTER We are literally drilling new holes. It
:04:37. > :04:40.depends on the thickness but it can have anyone between one - 2 million
:04:41. > :05:04.barrels. Over its life.. This is what it is all about, our
:05:05. > :05:16.cup of Canada's tar sands oil ready to go down the pipeline to the
:05:17. > :05:20.world's consumers will not. I think the challenge is not really oil
:05:21. > :05:27.production it is the carbon emissions associated with oil. What
:05:28. > :05:32.we have unlocked is enabling this resource to be part of the energy
:05:33. > :05:37.mix. In the last years we have dropped the intensity by over 33%.
:05:38. > :05:45.But it is much more energy intensive than the oils reduced in the vast
:05:46. > :05:51.reserves in the Middle East? It is a heavy oil, it takes more prizes and
:05:52. > :05:56.technology. At a time when Canada is committed to reducing significantly
:05:57. > :06:03.its carbon emissions, you are raising yours. It accounts for, you
:06:04. > :06:10.know, less than 1% of global emission... In Canada it is much
:06:11. > :06:17.more significant... In Alberta, the have the highest carbon levy put on
:06:18. > :06:21.as well as an emission limit, you're not going to find that anywhere else
:06:22. > :06:30.on the planet. I spoke to a senior official in green -- Greenpeace who
:06:31. > :06:36.says the rest of Canada is basically going to have to shut down to meet
:06:37. > :06:39.Canada's overall commitment. Climate change is one of the biggest
:06:40. > :06:43.challenges we face today and we are part of that which means we are
:06:44. > :06:47.going to be part of that solution and we have worked and are working
:06:48. > :06:52.with the government, academia, that have come together to say this is
:06:53. > :06:56.not an adversarial relationship but how do we come together and create
:06:57. > :07:03.the solutions. But the easy solution and forgive me for being blindingly
:07:04. > :07:10.simple, is for you to leave this tar sands oil in the ground. Any report,
:07:11. > :07:15.oil is still going to be needed. We are going to need all forms of
:07:16. > :07:24.energy. Goldman Sachs predicts it could go down to $25 a barrel. It
:07:25. > :07:32.will continue to produce... But that too many people is the problem, not
:07:33. > :07:38.only are you listening to the critique but also to the market. A
:07:39. > :07:47.lot does not stop us. If we had to shut it down, for safety concerns,
:07:48. > :07:50.the presses and revenue continues. Environmentalists have made it plain
:07:51. > :07:54.that forest fires are getting worse and more severe in this part of the
:07:55. > :08:02.world because of climatic change. Do you accept there is a link? It is
:08:03. > :08:09.one of the biggest challenges of our time. We will continue to drive to
:08:10. > :08:15.get oil and get to a zero State to use oil. The floods, the rain, they
:08:16. > :08:20.are naturally changing. Climate change is something we have to take
:08:21. > :08:30.care of. You are the kind of man changing it. It is naturally going
:08:31. > :08:42.to continue to evolve and Acho. -- occur. Fort McMurray is the capital
:08:43. > :08:52.of Alberta's tar sands region. It has been a boomtown, the population
:08:53. > :08:57.swelling to 90,000. But in May 2016, a massive wildfire, they dubbed the
:08:58. > :09:07.beast, swept through the forest around Fort McMurray and into the
:09:08. > :09:23.town itself. This is what the beast left behind. Here we are approaching
:09:24. > :09:31.your driveway. It has been obliterated. Welcome to my home stop
:09:32. > :09:35.it is one of the strangest home visits I have ever made. You are
:09:36. > :09:42.smiling and calm but this is your life? It just does not feel real. We
:09:43. > :09:49.were shifting through the ashes trying to find anything. Were there
:09:50. > :09:59.she is at that time? There has been a lot of tears. -- tears. Right now
:10:00. > :10:07.you can divide four Murray into two - incinerated or untouched. The bulk
:10:08. > :10:16.of the town was saved thanks to the fire crews led by the fire chief,
:10:17. > :10:24.Darby Allen. The people here are devastated, everyone is devastated.
:10:25. > :10:28.The community is devastated. This is going to go on and it will take us a
:10:29. > :10:33.while to come back from it. You can see just a short distance away where
:10:34. > :10:40.the forest has been impacted by the fire. The evidence is all around.
:10:41. > :10:47.This is one of our commander posts throughout the incident. So the fire
:10:48. > :10:54.was all in here, it jumped the river and we did not think it would jump
:10:55. > :11:03.at the river... It is truly amazing. 1200 seat wise. You have flames five
:11:04. > :11:07.feet in the air, it takes it up and then drops of these huge burning
:11:08. > :11:13.embers on the other side and eventually it just went. What is
:11:14. > :11:20.said to those, and they were not many, but they were loud, who drew a
:11:21. > :11:26.connection between Fort McMurray's role as original headquarters of the
:11:27. > :11:29.sands industry and the fact that in the end of the town suffered from a
:11:30. > :11:36.fire they linked to climate change factors. Some of them said, you know
:11:37. > :11:41.what, Fort McMurray had it coming. I would be upset from that statement.
:11:42. > :11:49.It is a wonderful town, it has wonderful people. It gets painted as
:11:50. > :11:54.a dirty old town but I do not see the link to this fire with industry
:11:55. > :11:59.at all. Environmental conditions played a part because it was so dry
:12:00. > :12:04.but what would they have us done? How do you control that forest to
:12:05. > :12:13.make sure it is friendly in the future. It is a very difficult thing
:12:14. > :12:19.to do. Life has returned to Fort McMurray, the forest will regrow but
:12:20. > :12:27.the fire poured fuel on the flames of a raging debate. Are these kinds
:12:28. > :12:32.of natural disasters linked to climate change? Is the warming tied
:12:33. > :12:41.to the fossil fuel driven economy which Fort McMurray feeds?
:12:42. > :12:47.Greenpeace has a profound problem with oil sands production? It is
:12:48. > :12:54.because of the impact it is having, to climate, land, water, Indigenous
:12:55. > :13:00.rates. We have a new Prime Minister in Canada who says the king could
:13:01. > :13:06.the new with responsible reduction of tar sands oil and, at the same
:13:07. > :13:10.time, deliver on all our Paris climate change commitments? The
:13:11. > :13:16.signs that not match the Prime Minister's talking points. When you
:13:17. > :13:23.look at oil sands and its development, you cannot continue to
:13:24. > :13:28.expand and add 30 mega towns of emissions -- towns, and meet what we
:13:29. > :13:33.said we were going to meet in Paris. On the contrary, you can introduce a
:13:34. > :13:38.carbon tax which the provincial government in Alberta is committed
:13:39. > :13:45.to. They are going to plough some of that money into renewable energy...
:13:46. > :13:50.There are some good talking points. They are not just talking points,
:13:51. > :13:54.they are facts, they have laid out a plan. A price on carbon is great but
:13:55. > :13:58.the rise is substantially lower than it is not really going to change
:13:59. > :14:04.consumer behaviour and industry behaviour. Movie into renewables is
:14:05. > :14:08.great at the same time you have this looming climate disaster in the oil
:14:09. > :14:15.sands that overshadows everything else. It is a fine for a full-time
:14:16. > :14:22.activist such big contemplative pronouncements but, get real, they
:14:23. > :14:29.cannot walk away from this massive potential reserve of oil. It is not
:14:30. > :14:33.just Greenpeace that is saying this, international agencies as saying
:14:34. > :14:38.that three quarters of oil fossil fuel reserves and need to be in the
:14:39. > :14:41.ground. Our government has acted very irresponsibly in the past few
:14:42. > :14:48.decades to build an economy around for the reserves and potentially it
:14:49. > :14:54.has the capability of ending a life in the planet. You appear to be
:14:55. > :14:58.blaming Fort McMurray because it is an oil producing centre for the fire
:14:59. > :15:04.it brought upon itself. It seems very unreasonable.
:15:05. > :15:11.We do not blame them for the tragedy that overtook the town. We do say
:15:12. > :15:18.that climate change is having a severe impact and accelerating and
:15:19. > :15:24.making those fires much worse. Can you prove that? We are outside of a
:15:25. > :15:29.natural fire cycle, fire is a natural part of the cycle. I think a
:15:30. > :15:34.lot of people in Fort McMurray just experienced a sign of climate
:15:35. > :15:42.change. His Excellency, the Prime Minister of Canada. Earlier this
:15:43. > :15:49.year, the new premier, just Trudeau signs of Paris climate change treaty
:15:50. > :15:54.and promised to cut Canada's emissions. I'm a change will in test
:15:55. > :16:02.our intelligence, our compassion and our will. That was the good news,
:16:03. > :16:03.especially in Calgary. That is where Canadian big oil has its
:16:04. > :16:32.headquarters. Downtown Calgary is a forest of
:16:33. > :16:35.steel and glass. The oil sounds industry has put a lot of money into
:16:36. > :16:41.the city and hundreds of thousands of jobs in two Alberta. That means
:16:42. > :16:53.that the industry has a big political voice. Shannon Phillips is
:16:54. > :16:58.Alberta's environment Minister. Her province has promised to play its
:16:59. > :17:06.part in the carbonising Canada. But is that possible without weaning the
:17:07. > :17:14.economy of tar sands oil? How much of the vast, vast amount of oil
:17:15. > :17:23.under the soil in Alberta must stay under the soil if this province and
:17:24. > :17:27.the nation of Canada is to be a responsible part of the effort to
:17:28. > :17:31.control climate change. Companies are in the process of examining what
:17:32. > :17:34.they have to see what can be developed under a low energy use
:17:35. > :17:40.scenario. All of the companies we have at the table, and Roman group
:17:41. > :17:43.and Indigenous peoples are examining bad and seeing what they can develop
:17:44. > :17:48.most responsibly under the legislation. Let's be specific. I
:17:49. > :18:06.will quote you one of the most influential environmentalists in
:18:07. > :18:09.North America. He founded the -- group 350.org. He says most of what
:18:10. > :18:15.is currently under the soil will have to stay there if Canadair is to
:18:16. > :18:18.play their part. With all due respect to environmental groups
:18:19. > :18:22.outside of this province, our primary responsibility is to the
:18:23. > :18:26.people of Alberta. We have gone through a massive drop in oil prices
:18:27. > :18:32.and tens of thousands of people are out of work. They are not the ones
:18:33. > :18:35.who are making the decisions. Are you aware of how Canada seems right
:18:36. > :18:39.now, particularly the oil sands industry. To quote the
:18:40. > :18:45.environmentalists, Canada right now is a dangerous and destructive force
:18:46. > :18:51.upon the fun at. Unconventional and extreme fossil fuels, like oil
:18:52. > :18:55.sands, must stay in the ground. There will be all sorts of voices
:18:56. > :18:59.and we bring them to the table. That voice is not at the table because
:19:00. > :19:04.your stance is entirely contradictory to that. Your stance
:19:05. > :19:15.is that by hook or by crook you will find a way to develop your oil sands
:19:16. > :19:19.and bring something like 170 billion barrels of oil, potentially, you
:19:20. > :19:24.will bring that to the surface. I think we need to back up and look at
:19:25. > :19:29.the actual reserves and the companies who are sitting with us to
:19:30. > :19:37.negotiate an emissions cap. It is account. Why do you not make it and
:19:38. > :19:40.output cap? Why don't you tell the companies you will put a limit on
:19:41. > :19:44.the amount of oil they can produce? We have to put a limit on emissions.
:19:45. > :19:51.And that is the issue here, the carbon dioxide not the stands. But
:19:52. > :19:55.this is highly carbon inefficient, the production of this sort of oil.
:19:56. > :20:02.So if you want to deliver real emissions cuts you will need to cut
:20:03. > :20:06.production. This facility produces at a clean conventional level. We
:20:07. > :20:13.know it is possible and particular companies have those technologies
:20:14. > :20:14.available. There is going to be a negotiation and a moving forward
:20:15. > :20:26.under the legislated cap. Right now, as I understand it, your
:20:27. > :20:31.oil sands industry emits something like 17 megatons of ring house gas
:20:32. > :20:38.emissions per year. You have said the cap at 100 megatons. In the
:20:39. > :20:42.context of the Paris agreement and the global decarbonisation plan that
:20:43. > :20:47.is now out there, Alberta, far from being a key player is actually
:20:48. > :20:53.giving licensed for an expansion, a major expansion, of emissions. I
:20:54. > :21:00.would not characterise it as a major expansion. But what can you
:21:01. > :21:04.councillor what I just said? In the first place, to put a cap on
:21:05. > :21:16.emissions... But, with respect, you have put on a cap with which the big
:21:17. > :21:26.oil companies love. They are happy. That suggests you have not been very
:21:27. > :21:30.tough on them. The focus was environmental defence. One of
:21:31. > :21:38.Canada's loudest environmental voices has led many highly
:21:39. > :21:41.conflictual environmental campaigns and an institute that has been a
:21:42. > :21:46.long-standing environmental voice here in Alberta. Additionally,
:21:47. > :21:53.Indigenous Peoples stood with us on the stage that day. The rest of the
:21:54. > :21:59.country will have to squeeze its emissions in a completely
:22:00. > :22:03.unrealistic fashion. It has been said that if you hear Alberta you
:22:04. > :22:09.reach a 100 megaton women and reddish Columbia Hills new gas
:22:10. > :22:14.terminals that it is disgusting, it will be impossible for Canada or as
:22:15. > :22:19.a whole to other emissions sufficiently to meet the 2030 Paris
:22:20. > :22:24.targets that President Trudeau signed up to. There are a number of
:22:25. > :22:28.hypotheticals and a number of ways we have not taken things into
:22:29. > :22:34.account. We have been taking them into account. Reductions in methane,
:22:35. > :22:43.for example. A respected institute has looked at that. If everyone were
:22:44. > :22:48.to adopt a global carbon plan, the entire globe would be reaching its
:22:49. > :22:52.targets. Alberta is producing some of the dirtiest oil in the world. If
:22:53. > :22:59.everyone were like Alberta, the world would go to hell in a
:23:00. > :23:06.handcart. In the interim, 20% of Canadian GDP relies on Alberta's oil
:23:07. > :23:11.and gas industry. Short term. That is the phrase. Short term. So you
:23:12. > :23:17.are saying Canada is stark. I don't know if I would use word stuck. I
:23:18. > :23:20.think there is a load of opportunity there to add value to the resources
:23:21. > :23:27.and find different ways of using them. Many people watching this will
:23:28. > :23:35.be a way of Canada's most famous environmental voice, Naomi Klein.
:23:36. > :23:40.She said right now Canada record on climate change years a crime against
:23:41. > :23:44.humanity's future. Do you worry that here in Alberta you are a part of a
:23:45. > :23:50.problem which is going to cost Canada dearly? In terms of
:23:51. > :23:56.international reputation? I think what we are doing in Alberta is we
:23:57. > :24:01.have taken our first steps to recognise that we have a problem and
:24:02. > :24:08.to take action on it. I will make no apologies for it.
:24:09. > :24:15.Canada does not want to be seen as one of the world's polluting powers.
:24:16. > :24:22.But of the country insists on pumping out every drop of tar sands
:24:23. > :24:24.oil, well, it is a label that may just stick.