:00:00. > :00:16.Kadiza Sultana was 16 when she ran away from her home in London to join
:00:17. > :00:18.the so-called Islamic State group in Syria.
:00:19. > :00:21.Her family have heard reports that she is dead -
:00:22. > :00:26.It's hard enough to understand why young men join IS,
:00:27. > :00:29.it's harder still to see what attracts women.
:00:30. > :00:32.Sara Khan is at the forefront of efforts in the UK to prevent
:00:33. > :01:21.Welcome to HARDtalk. Why do you think young women go to join IS? I
:01:22. > :01:28.think we underestimate the influence, significance and
:01:29. > :01:35.significance of propaganda across the world. They have used social
:01:36. > :01:39.media like no other group has. They have been very successful in that
:01:40. > :01:45.way and trying to understand the appeal for a young girl that third
:01:46. > :01:52.generation of Muslims who the primary target is religion. It is
:01:53. > :01:58.very easy to be manipulated people on the Internet, by women who are
:01:59. > :02:03.saying this is a wonderful land, and there is nothing more powerful than
:02:04. > :02:09.using the name of God. It is important to understand that ISIS
:02:10. > :02:17.propaganda does not exist in a vacuum. In the UK there have been
:02:18. > :02:20.Islamist ideas promoted by organisations, preaches, and the
:02:21. > :02:27.reality unfortunately is there has been a mainstreaming normalisation.
:02:28. > :02:34.Many young girls about gone to join ISIS. Do they think they are going
:02:35. > :02:37.to be closer to God? They are fulfilling their religious
:02:38. > :02:43.obligation. They are made to believe ISIS is that the promised utopia
:02:44. > :02:48.that God has promised to Muslims. Religion does... Or are very
:02:49. > :02:56.misconstrued understanding of religion have an impact. After three
:02:57. > :03:04.girls left to go to Syria, you wrote an open letter, your organisation,
:03:05. > :03:08.Inspire, it was written by Hugh and it was a letter read out in London
:03:09. > :03:14.schools and it started, dear sister, you do not know me but like you I am
:03:15. > :03:20.British and Muslim stop what was the aim of that letter? When I heard
:03:21. > :03:27.about those three schoolgirls leaving London to join ISIS my heart
:03:28. > :03:33.just broke. They had everything going for them in this country,
:03:34. > :03:38.every opportunity and they chose to reject that full ISIS. I wanted to
:03:39. > :03:43.say to other young girls who may be influenced by ISIS propaganda that
:03:44. > :03:51.this is not the way. There is no illogical reality, the chances are
:03:52. > :03:56.you coming back a slim, but look at what you are giving up for example,
:03:57. > :03:59.your family, your mother. I wanted to speak to young girls very
:04:00. > :04:04.directly because to be honest I did not feel we were giving enough
:04:05. > :04:09.counter narrative to those young girls. It was reprinted around the
:04:10. > :04:21.world, it was read in London schools but also downloaded. Was it saying
:04:22. > :04:25.something that those girls did not already know? In some cases I think
:04:26. > :04:30.they were not here in that argument full fee not intervention providers
:04:31. > :04:34.working with girls who have been radicalised with ISIS would tell me
:04:35. > :04:38.that they gave that letter to these young girls who had been persuaded
:04:39. > :04:42.by propaganda and they found the argument compelling they were not
:04:43. > :04:48.hearing that counter argument and again, what makes these girls of all
:04:49. > :04:51.vulnerable is when they do not hear a counter argument, no one is sowing
:04:52. > :04:58.the seed of doubt, what are they to do? The argument, some would
:04:59. > :05:03.suggest, part of the reason it reached in is because it came from
:05:04. > :05:07.you, from somebody who said I am a British Muslim woman. When you were
:05:08. > :05:13.in your teens you were also listening to the teachings of
:05:14. > :05:17.Islamist preachers? Yes, I was and that is why it could relate to what
:05:18. > :05:24.these girls were going through. I was wearing a scarf, I was reading
:05:25. > :05:30.the holy book. I could see how easy it is to become radicalised, to be
:05:31. > :05:38.drawn to Islamist ideas. You reject your parents, your figures,
:05:39. > :05:43.authority, I can totally understand where these girls were coming from.
:05:44. > :05:50.He also said at the end of this letter, feel free to contact me
:05:51. > :05:54.directly. Did many? No, they did not but I got a response coming through
:05:55. > :06:00.fear not intervention providers and they were saying this is what they
:06:01. > :06:07.are at telling us. Nobody contacted you directly? No. To be honest, I
:06:08. > :06:12.was not really expecting them to contact me. I never expected the
:06:13. > :06:18.letter to go viral. I wrote that letter partly out of frustration but
:06:19. > :06:22.for at least one girl to read it and say, I am doubtful about going. I
:06:23. > :06:28.did not expect anybody to contact me but it was as an option, if you feel
:06:29. > :06:32.there is no one you can speak to whether it is your mother, your
:06:33. > :06:37.teacher, there is a lifeline out there for you. You say it was out in
:06:38. > :06:42.frustration that nobody was giving a counter argument. It is an
:06:43. > :06:47.organisation called prevent, which is support and are involved in, is
:06:48. > :06:53.that making a difference? Yes, I think it is but that does not mean
:06:54. > :06:58.there are no flaws. Let's be honest, there is no single government policy
:06:59. > :07:02.which is 100% perfect. Or a good aspects of event and areas that need
:07:03. > :07:06.greater it improvement. The good aspects are that the government said
:07:07. > :07:11.it has prevented 120 people from travelling, including 50 Muslim
:07:12. > :07:16.children from travelling to Syria. 58th hours and illegal pieces of
:07:17. > :07:23.material have been taken down. They have worked with Muslim groups,
:07:24. > :07:28.flooding 20 million counter narrative videos. 30 community
:07:29. > :07:33.projects. We are in partnership with Muslim groups. That is a success but
:07:34. > :07:44.they are the negatives. You are saying this because it was held up
:07:45. > :07:50.as one of the organisations that was not criticise. David Anderson, the
:07:51. > :07:54.lawyer said that it is becoming a more significant source of grievance
:07:55. > :08:03.in communities than the police and ministerial powers. The lack of
:08:04. > :08:08.transparency, encourages rumour and mistrust. It has a big problems. I
:08:09. > :08:18.will never deny their Rat no problems. I believe in Prevent. We
:08:19. > :08:22.need a strategy. One that seeks to prevent people from being drawn into
:08:23. > :08:34.terrorism. I overconcerned about the ovary forum by teachers, by some of
:08:35. > :08:40.the quality of training. They have a legal duty to report a child? If
:08:41. > :08:44.they have concerns about a child being radicalised that they do
:08:45. > :08:48.something about it. One of the primary issues that I know keeps
:08:49. > :08:53.rearing its head is that teachers often are not able to distinguish
:08:54. > :09:01.between extremist and valid concerns. That is why you are seeing
:09:02. > :09:06.an over referral. Should they have to refer them at all? The National
:09:07. > :09:14.Union of Teachers rejected this policy because they said teachers
:09:15. > :09:20.should not be the Secret Service of the Labour should be encouraging
:09:21. > :09:25.discussion with students rather than stifling them. Nobody is asking them
:09:26. > :09:32.to do that. Whether we are talking domestic violence, child sexual
:09:33. > :09:37.exploitation, as a role as a teacher, if you think a child is
:09:38. > :09:43.being groomed, radicalise, by a preacher online at- and I know of
:09:44. > :09:48.many examples of- you need to do something to safeguard that child.
:09:49. > :09:52.In order to tackle this ideology you need to have open discussion and if
:09:53. > :10:00.a child is fearful of voicing what they think because they know their
:10:01. > :10:08.teacher has a duty to report them, surprisingly -- unsurprisingly they
:10:09. > :10:15.will not speak out. The mix around Prevent- this is a classic example,
:10:16. > :10:20.a debate in the classroom. They have made it very clear that if they came
:10:21. > :10:24.across any school where they were stifling debate on closing down
:10:25. > :10:28.discussion, they would be concerned. But the argument is that the very
:10:29. > :10:33.presence of that requirement to report has the effect of silencing?
:10:34. > :10:36.I would disagree because if you are doing it the right training to
:10:37. > :10:41.teachers, you should be saying to them to encourage discussion and
:10:42. > :10:47.debate. For example. I went to a school where one head teacher told
:10:48. > :10:52.me one man who was a member of the BNP, was radicalising a four-year
:10:53. > :10:59.old son. That you should hate Muslims. Encouraging violence. The
:11:00. > :11:06.same head teacher was then dealing with the case of a Muslim father
:11:07. > :11:13.allowing his daughter to watch beheadings. You have to be aware
:11:14. > :11:17.that these. If it is the case where parents are radicalising their
:11:18. > :11:23.children and in some cases that is happening, school may be the only
:11:24. > :11:30.place where a child is challenge. We need to encourage discussion. The
:11:31. > :11:36.Prevent strategy has had... This is a widespread feeling voiced in the
:11:37. > :11:43.Select Committee report with cross-party MPs... That rather as
:11:44. > :11:46.being seen as a community led approach, it is perceived to be a
:11:47. > :11:51.Big Brother operation and they and others have said that at the least
:11:52. > :11:59.you need to change the name. It has become a toxic brand. I disagree
:12:00. > :12:05.with the change of name, that will make no difference to people
:12:06. > :12:09.actively opposing Prevent. Or a legitimate people who have concerns
:12:10. > :12:14.that you have raised that have misunderstood parts of the policy,
:12:15. > :12:19.and weaknesses that we need to improve but there is another section
:12:20. > :12:24.of society who are deliberately peddling lies within Muslim
:12:25. > :12:31.communities and I have evidenced that in the past, creating tension
:12:32. > :12:38.within the community and making Prevent toxic. As a failure in our
:12:39. > :12:41.society is not to acknowledge that. Let's turn to a row we have seen
:12:42. > :12:55.going on in France and elsewhere as a result of the burkini. Beaches are
:12:56. > :13:01.banning burkini. The band has been ruled as illegal and yet 20 mares
:13:02. > :13:08.are saying they will not follow that ruling. That his been a suggestion
:13:09. > :13:15.that the French people support the band on burkinis. Are you pose any
:13:16. > :13:21.kind of band on swimsuits which in effect resembles a wetsuit. I do not
:13:22. > :13:25.believe that is the way forward. I believe very much in the idea that
:13:26. > :13:32.women should have the right to decide what to wear on their body. A
:13:33. > :13:35.woman lying on a beach wearing burkinis is not harming anybody. We
:13:36. > :13:40.need to address the widespread concerns that people may have but
:13:41. > :13:45.taking such a Draconian measure is not helping the situation in France,
:13:46. > :13:51.particular in dealing with terror atrocities. That debate, does it
:13:52. > :13:57.reflect what is an increasing polarisation of the discussion about
:13:58. > :14:02.Muslims in Western society? I think I am greatly concerned by that
:14:03. > :14:08.debate because we are seeing that polarisation, the fear of Islam,
:14:09. > :14:11.Muslims, and we are seeing the rise of the far-right in European
:14:12. > :14:16.politics more generally and if you look at that discourse, it almost
:14:17. > :14:21.mirrors what ISIS said that the idea that the world is divided into two
:14:22. > :14:27.and we can never coexist. I think the challenge for all of us is to
:14:28. > :14:31.oppose both extremes and work together to maintain that middle
:14:32. > :14:33.ground, that compassionate coexistence, shared values and
:14:34. > :14:50.common humanity. Where are you on VE veil? That the
:14:51. > :14:54.veil. I did weather scarf. It wasn't culturally part of my family but I
:14:55. > :15:01.want out of my own choice. Equally, I took it out my own choice as well.
:15:02. > :15:06.In my early 30s. Why? A number of different reasons. When I grew
:15:07. > :15:11.older, I read more widely that they were much more diverse logical
:15:12. > :15:16.interpretation is where wearing a headscarf was not mandatory. Also,
:15:17. > :15:22.for me, I reached a point where I was tired on the one hand of
:15:23. > :15:27.religious Muslim clerics at assessing over women's bodies but
:15:28. > :15:34.equally, I was tired of British society. Otafest with what women are
:15:35. > :15:39.wearing. -- obsessed. There are far more important issues. It was almost
:15:40. > :15:42.an act of rebellion against might work those sites of society and
:15:43. > :15:53.saying that I would leave my life as I choose. There were so many Muslim
:15:54. > :15:59.clerics that were using faith to advocate patriarchies. Was that part
:16:00. > :16:03.of your thinking? Yes. One of the problems that face is contemporary
:16:04. > :16:10.Islam today is the dominance of patriarchies. I feel it has ignored
:16:11. > :16:14.the Muslim contribution, the women's contribution in Muslim history where
:16:15. > :16:18.women were architects, State leaders, professors, they almost
:16:19. > :16:23.seems to be a whitewashing of the power that Islam gives the women.
:16:24. > :16:25.Again, it was a form of rebellion against the patriarchal
:16:26. > :16:30.interpretations of Islam that continue to dominate today. When you
:16:31. > :16:40.see a woman in an veil and use each women in an niqab, D think they are
:16:41. > :16:43.victims of the patriarch it? No. I am clear that as a feminist and a
:16:44. > :16:48.muslin that women have a right to wear what they want. I wore it and I
:16:49. > :16:51.passionately believe that at the time that I was doing the right
:16:52. > :16:55.thing. I would never say to another woman that you should take your
:16:56. > :16:59.headscarf off. I would say to Muslim women who wear the veil, of course
:17:00. > :17:02.in cases if you are giving evidence in court, you have to be sensible
:17:03. > :17:08.but to be honest, most of the people but I know that whether niqab to
:17:09. > :17:12.take their faces veil off but I would never dictate the women what
:17:13. > :17:18.they can and can't... A separate. You wouldn't dictate, it is up to
:17:19. > :17:22.them but you saw that wearing it is partly a result of the patriarch it
:17:23. > :17:27.within the Islamic world, as you put it. I wonder why you are so hesitant
:17:28. > :17:39.about applying VAT to other women? -- fat. -- that. Lowe since the
:17:40. > :17:50.1970s, we have seen an increase of women wearing the sky. I have spoken
:17:51. > :17:53.in the past. -- scarf. They are restrictive, degrading to women but
:17:54. > :17:57.at the same time, I recognise the right for women to wear what they
:17:58. > :18:01.want forced to equally, if they want to take it off but they have the
:18:02. > :18:18.right. If the woman is wearing the full face veil, wearing the full
:18:19. > :18:27.veil was bound to make cooperation between the two communities
:18:28. > :18:33.difficult. What if they are a teacher, AGP, a charge? Could they
:18:34. > :18:38.have full veil? I would encourage women to take it off and be sensible
:18:39. > :18:43.in those situations. It is a contentious issue but that's where I
:18:44. > :18:47.will stand. Really, to give the idea and to use the logical argument that
:18:48. > :18:50.Islam is about commonsense, moderation, about recognising a
:18:51. > :18:54.society that you are living in, the culture we are living in and to
:18:55. > :18:58.appreciate that. I disagree with Jack Straw's argument that we have a
:18:59. > :19:07.problem with difference. I do not. We embrace it in this country. It is
:19:08. > :19:10.about being sensible. You say we embrace diversity but is at harder
:19:11. > :19:17.to you? Is it harder to you to say what you want? Not really the stuff
:19:18. > :19:19.is becoming harder within Muslim communities. The lack of tolerance
:19:20. > :19:23.within the communities is a challenge and it is interesting to
:19:24. > :19:27.me because when I speak to a lot of Muslim women and they fear that if
:19:28. > :19:33.they would like to take their headscarf off my baby they will be
:19:34. > :19:36.judged. -- they fear they will be judged. There is a lack of tolerance
:19:37. > :19:45.within the community of different views. Is there a battle being waged
:19:46. > :19:52.within the world, within Muslims, within Britain? Is it being waged
:19:53. > :19:57.within? Into areas. Yes, within Islam. Where I believe that the dish
:19:58. > :20:02.Islam should not embrace any kind is interpretation which encourages
:20:03. > :20:10.discrimination, hatred or violence but it is a wider battle. We are
:20:11. > :20:13.saying to the wider society that you need to stand with those Muslims who
:20:14. > :20:21.are trying to fight for a vicious Islam. -- British Islam. The
:20:22. > :20:27.quality. But as I have evidenced in my book, there are some Muslims that
:20:28. > :20:36.will side with its -- Islamist instead. Who? Some organisations who
:20:37. > :20:40.oppose the quality, gay rights, have no respect for democracy and who
:20:41. > :20:47.will ultimately would like to live in other ways. You want more people
:20:48. > :20:58.to stand up, Moores Muslims to stand up and say "Not in my name will --
:20:59. > :21:04.not in my name. If you lack a figurehead? I get messages of
:21:05. > :21:07.support I receive lots of e-mails. I have come to the conclusion that
:21:08. > :21:11.there are always people in society that need to push the boundaries.
:21:12. > :21:16.People have advocated the change whether it is human rights or other
:21:17. > :21:22.issues, we have to press those boundaries. I am prepared to do
:21:23. > :21:30.that. Howarth and you get threats? -- how often? I receive it on a
:21:31. > :21:35.regular basis. I am saying the things that need to be said, though.
:21:36. > :21:40.We need to talk about the idea of British Islam. Why do we have
:21:41. > :21:43.13-year-old girls in our country who feel no affiliation to this country,
:21:44. > :21:48.despite the fact they have been born and raised it by to a long distant
:21:49. > :21:55.faraway caliphate? Something has gone wrong. Why are we seeing the
:21:56. > :22:03.murder of Muslims by a Sunni Muslim, there is something going on wrong
:22:04. > :22:09.with the community. Raising Matt, is that enough to get the abuse for
:22:10. > :22:14.you? That is. Partly I can see that in a climate of anti- Muslim
:22:15. > :22:17.prejudice, White air your dirty laundry? It is something we should
:22:18. > :22:22.do because all you are doing is feeding the far right, to attack us.
:22:23. > :22:27.Again, to me, that is not a sensible option. We can speak out against the
:22:28. > :22:32.far right who speak out against Islam but we have to address the
:22:33. > :22:39.intolerance in our own backyard. Has it made you question your own faith?
:22:40. > :22:45.In what regard? You have mentioned in the past that it has done that. I
:22:46. > :22:53.had never questioned my own faith because of the grief but I have
:22:54. > :23:00.because when I see groups like ISIS, justifying the rape of UCD Dell 's
:23:01. > :23:08.or manipulating to justify their parity whether it is blowing up
:23:09. > :23:16.churches and justifying the stoning of women. -- Yazidi girls. But I
:23:17. > :23:22.know what my faith advocates stop instead of having to leave Islam, I
:23:23. > :23:26.must reclaim it. That is the same message I give to others. When we
:23:27. > :23:31.know extremists are hijacking our faith, we must reclaim it. If we are
:23:32. > :23:37.silent, it is the extremists who will be left to define Islam. What
:23:38. > :23:43.price are you paying for that? I have had to call the police. I have
:23:44. > :23:47.sometimes had to have police accompany me to events. The abuse I
:23:48. > :23:51.get is on a daily basis. To say it is part of my job description. I
:23:52. > :23:55.feel it is a vital worth fighting for because it is not just about
:23:56. > :24:00.muslins or my children, it is a battle that will impact all of us in
:24:01. > :24:04.our society and country. Sara Khan, thank you very much for coming on
:24:05. > :24:12.the day. -- today.