0:00:01 > 0:00:07Now it is time for HARDtalk.
0:00:07 > 0:00:11Welcome to HARDtalk, from Lake Como in Italy.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14I'm Sarah Montague, and I'm here at the annual Ambrosetti Forum,
0:00:14 > 0:00:17where some of the world's big thinkers and politicians are meeting
0:00:17 > 0:00:22to consider some of the challenges we face.
0:00:22 > 0:00:27They voted that one of the biggest risks to the world
0:00:27 > 0:00:30is the American presidential election.
0:00:30 > 0:00:32Among those here, the Senator Lindsey Graham.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35He said that Donald Trump is a jackass, and that their party,
0:00:35 > 0:00:37the Republicans, should unendorse him as their candidate
0:00:37 > 0:00:38for president.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41Senator Graham was a candidate himself.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44He is widely respected on foreign affairs and has warned that
0:00:44 > 0:00:48Donald Trump has no understanding of the world and is not fit to be
0:00:48 > 0:00:51America's commander-in-chief.
0:00:51 > 0:01:13So, what happens if he ends up as America's President?
0:01:13 > 0:01:14Lindsey Graham, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:14 > 0:01:19Thank you for having me.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21"Not fit to be America's commander-in-chief".
0:01:21 > 0:01:22Why?
0:01:22 > 0:01:24What is so wrong with Donald Trump?
0:01:24 > 0:01:27That was my view at the primary, and the way you become
0:01:27 > 0:01:29commander-in-chief is not have to impress me, but the voters.
0:01:29 > 0:01:33I think temperament and judgment are his biggest problems right now.
0:01:33 > 0:01:35He is winning in three areas.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38Best able to defeat Isil when you ask the American people,
0:01:38 > 0:01:39Clinton - Trump.
0:01:39 > 0:01:40Trump.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42Best able to handle the economy?
0:01:42 > 0:01:43Trump, not Clinton.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45Best able to bring change to Washington -
0:01:45 > 0:01:47Trump, not Clinton.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49With those three back things going for you,
0:01:49 > 0:01:52how are you losing?
0:01:52 > 0:01:54He loses to her simply because people are worried
0:01:54 > 0:01:56about his judgment, temperament and experience
0:01:56 > 0:02:00to be commander-in-chief.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03The Republicans should win this year because in our country,
0:02:03 > 0:02:06it's very hard for one party to control the White House
0:02:06 > 0:02:07for 12 years.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10There is some Obama fatigue.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14But his inability to convince the American people as an individual
0:02:14 > 0:02:18that he can deal with the crises that come with being
0:02:18 > 0:02:21commander-in-chief is the reason he's losing, and if he can overcome
0:02:21 > 0:02:23that, then he could actually win this election.
0:02:23 > 0:02:25But what are your fears about him?
0:02:25 > 0:02:27That judgment, that temperament, what do you think,
0:02:27 > 0:02:31if he were in the position of being President of the United States,
0:02:31 > 0:02:33that he could do?
0:02:33 > 0:02:37I don't believe he's going to wake up one day and create World War III.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40He has a family and children, in fact, grandchildren.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43I don't think he's mentally unstable, I just think his world
0:02:43 > 0:02:45view is something to me that's perplexing.
0:02:45 > 0:02:50Putin is not our friend.
0:02:50 > 0:02:52When you look at Putin as a potential ally,
0:02:52 > 0:02:55I think you misunderstand where Putin's coming from.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58Syria - I understand the idea of being aggressive against Isil,
0:02:58 > 0:03:01but you're not going to win the war from the air,
0:03:01 > 0:03:03and he talks about leaving Assad in power.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07I have been to Iraq and Afghanistan 38 times and I have learned
0:03:07 > 0:03:10that the Arabs will not accept Assad staying in power in Syria
0:03:10 > 0:03:16because he is a proxy and puppet of Iran.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19At the end of the day, when it comes to Middle East
0:03:19 > 0:03:22politics, sizing up people, who is your enemy, who is your
0:03:22 > 0:03:23friend, a lot of concern there.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26We will look at the detail of that in a minute,
0:03:26 > 0:03:31but in terms of getting to the point where you say he is not fit to be
0:03:31 > 0:03:32America's commander-in-chief, that doesn't sound...
0:03:32 > 0:03:35There are plenty of people you disagree with on policy,
0:03:35 > 0:03:36not least President Obama.
0:03:36 > 0:03:38And Secretary Clinton.
0:03:38 > 0:03:42I disagree with her.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46My belief is the way he has handled himself has led to that conclusion
0:03:46 > 0:03:48on my part, but I see change.
0:03:48 > 0:03:50I see him actually getting a bit better.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53For example, on Muslims, and you said that what he said
0:03:53 > 0:03:56on the Islamic world, one thing you cannot do is declare
0:03:56 > 0:04:00war declare war on Islam itself, and you said he had done that.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04He has changed his position slightly on who will be allowed into a Trump
0:04:04 > 0:04:04America.
0:04:04 > 0:04:07So to the American people and to our friends in Great Britain,
0:04:07 > 0:04:10you can't win the war without partners in the faith.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14The one thing you don't want to do as leader of the West is declare war
0:04:14 > 0:04:15on the religion.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17So, when you ban all Muslims, you're basically saying
0:04:17 > 0:04:20that the faith itself is the problem.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24There are elements within the faith that most people within the faith
0:04:24 > 0:04:26reject, that have to be dealt with in partnerships.
0:04:26 > 0:04:27So you see change.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30It is actually encouraging the understanding that we need
0:04:30 > 0:04:34partnerships.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37He talks about the King of Jordan in glowing terms.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40Now he says that the ban will be directed towards countries
0:04:40 > 0:04:43and people who have a history of terrorism, which is different
0:04:43 > 0:04:44than banning an entire religion.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47But it is from any nation that has been comprised by terrorism,
0:04:47 > 0:04:50which is arguably almost any country in the world.
0:04:50 > 0:04:52Almost every country has a terrorism problem.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55There way you win the war, there is no capital to conquer,
0:04:55 > 0:04:58no air force to shoot down, no navy to sink.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00We are fighting an ideology.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03Here is the good news, and this is what I would tell
0:05:03 > 0:05:04Mr Trump and Secretary Clinton.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07Most people in the faith are not buying what Isil are selling.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10The young people of the Islamic world don't want to go
0:05:10 > 0:05:12to the 11th century.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15Most fathers and mothers do not want to turn their daughters over
0:05:15 > 0:05:18to Isil, so how do you defeat this ideology?
0:05:18 > 0:05:20You have to build up the lives of others.
0:05:20 > 0:05:24We have to provide a hope for life to compete with the glorious death.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26When Trump says we can't nation build any longer,
0:05:26 > 0:05:28that's disturbing to me.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31All these things are things are things that other politicians say.
0:05:31 > 0:05:33You have said that your fellow Republicans should unendorse him
0:05:33 > 0:05:35as their candidate.
0:05:35 > 0:05:37That was during the primaries.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39Are you not saying that now?
0:05:39 > 0:05:40You can endorse him if you like.
0:05:40 > 0:05:42Here's our nominee and he won.
0:05:42 > 0:05:43That ship has sailed.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47I'm not going to vote for him nor her.
0:05:47 > 0:05:48Who would you vote for?
0:05:48 > 0:05:49Probably John McCain.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51I will write in somebody.
0:05:51 > 0:05:55You will write in someone else's name - that is a waste, isn't it?
0:05:55 > 0:05:57Isn't that like giving a vote to Hillary Clinton?
0:05:57 > 0:05:58I hear that a lot.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01At the end of the day, here's what I think.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04I'm a person like anyone else and I have to be convinced
0:06:04 > 0:06:07that the person I'm voting for is capable of doing the job.
0:06:07 > 0:06:11Maybe Mr Trump gets me there over time, but right now,
0:06:11 > 0:06:13I don't feel like I have a choice.
0:06:13 > 0:06:15Most Americans feel like the two choices we have
0:06:15 > 0:06:20are woefully unacceptable.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22I feel your pain.
0:06:22 > 0:06:23She is highly distrusted.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26He seems to be a bit shaky, to be nice.
0:06:26 > 0:06:35Bit shaky?
0:06:35 > 0:06:37In the eyes of the American people.
0:06:37 > 0:06:38We're talking about you.
0:06:38 > 0:06:40You've said of him, if we nominate Trump,
0:06:40 > 0:06:42we will get destroyed and we will deserve it.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44Well, you did, and now you're saying, well,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47maybe he's OK.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50I think that what he's doing is making all the problems we had
0:06:50 > 0:06:51in 2012 worse.
0:06:51 > 0:06:54He gave a speech a couple of days ago about immigration.
0:06:54 > 0:06:56We're not going to deport 11 million people.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00We can deport felons and croks, but we're not going to win
0:07:00 > 0:07:02the election unless we do better with Hispanics.
0:07:02 > 0:07:04Bush got 44% in 2004, we're down to 27%.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07I believe...
0:07:07 > 0:07:09And even lower according to some polls.
0:07:09 > 0:07:13I don't know where Trump will wind up, but here is what I do know.
0:07:13 > 0:07:16I'm not going to vote for someone who would deport my grandmother.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19What Mr Trump doesn't realise is these 11 million illegal
0:07:19 > 0:07:21immigrants have children and grandchildren who are US citizens.
0:07:21 > 0:07:25And we need to understand as a party that the biggest impediment
0:07:25 > 0:07:27to growing amongst the Hispanic community is not our ideology,
0:07:27 > 0:07:30they are conservative, is that they view us through this
0:07:30 > 0:07:37immigration debate as harsh and intolerant.
0:07:37 > 0:07:39His numbers with young women...
0:07:39 > 0:07:42For the party to grow, for us to win the White House,
0:07:42 > 0:07:44we've got to grow among Hispanics and young women.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Do you accept that actually all those things you're talking
0:07:47 > 0:07:50about, the problems Donald Trump has, in a way, are actually problems
0:07:50 > 0:07:52that have been brewing for decades?
0:07:52 > 0:07:56Totally.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58Absolutely.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00It's all around immigration.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03There's about 40% of the Republican primary voter who doesn't
0:08:03 > 0:08:06want to embrace the idea that some of them can stay.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09Taht they learn the language, pay the fine and get in the back
0:08:09 > 0:08:11of the line.
0:08:11 > 0:08:15The idea that they all have to go to enforce the rule of law,
0:08:15 > 0:08:17to be pure of the rule of law.
0:08:17 > 0:08:18That has divided the party.
0:08:18 > 0:08:19He seized upon that.
0:08:19 > 0:08:21What did he do...
0:08:21 > 0:08:23I am curious about is, is there something else?
0:08:23 > 0:08:26Is there something that dates back Nixon's Southern strategy,
0:08:26 > 0:08:30where almost it was dog whistle politics, and now it is just a more
0:08:30 > 0:08:32overt form of bigotry that he has capitalising on.
0:08:32 > 0:08:34I think his approach to immigration...
0:08:34 > 0:08:35Is racist?
0:08:35 > 0:08:38Yes, has a tone of "them".
0:08:38 > 0:08:42They are mostly drug dealers and mostly rapists and some of them
0:08:42 > 0:08:45are good is, one, not true.
0:08:45 > 0:08:49OK, but that is what Donald Trump says, but can he say it
0:08:49 > 0:08:52because the Republican party has kind of been leading to that point?
0:08:52 > 0:08:54The supporters the Republican party have been left
0:08:54 > 0:08:57with really have been...
0:08:57 > 0:09:04That's the signals they have been...
0:09:04 > 0:09:07That message resonates.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09He's playing to people's worst instinct and fears.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12You're going to lose your job to foreigners, I'm going to get
0:09:12 > 0:09:16you a better trade deal.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20The illegal immigrants raping your wife and selling your kid drugs.
0:09:20 > 0:09:27That message preys on people's fears because the world is changing.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31You know there are plenty of people, not least the likes of Nigel Farage,
0:09:31 > 0:09:34UK Independence Party, who come over and reinforce this
0:09:34 > 0:09:36point, which is about the little people.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38It is that people have heard from politicians,
0:09:38 > 0:09:40really, they've overpromised, and now the electorate feels
0:09:40 > 0:09:46disillusioned and betrayed.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49Well, one, I wouldn't use him as a model.
0:09:49 > 0:09:51I don't see his party doing very well.
0:09:51 > 0:09:53The bottom line is that there is anxiety among working-class
0:09:53 > 0:09:57people throughout the world.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00That the job security you once had no longer exists.
0:10:00 > 0:10:06The idea of working for one company for the rest of your life
0:10:06 > 0:10:08is probably going to be difficult to achieve,
0:10:08 > 0:10:10so when a politician comes along and says,
0:10:10 > 0:10:14I'm going to protect your job from unfair trade, there are a lot
0:10:14 > 0:10:17of people believe that, yes, we need to stop all these trade
0:10:17 > 0:10:19agreements with all these different people, because they're
0:10:19 > 0:10:21costing me my job.
0:10:21 > 0:10:25There are a lot of people believe the economy is not there for them.
0:10:25 > 0:10:25I see that.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28And all politicians are guilty of that overpromising,
0:10:28 > 0:10:29which has led to disillusionment?
0:10:29 > 0:10:30I think yes.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32I think that's a pretty fair statement.
0:10:32 > 0:10:34Here's what drives me crazy as a politician.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37When I hear a politician like Mr Trump and Secretary Clinton,
0:10:37 > 0:10:40quite frankly, saying you don't need to adjust entitlements,
0:10:40 > 0:10:43you don't need to ask younger workers to work longer before
0:10:43 > 0:10:46they get retirement and get a pension and get public health care
0:10:46 > 0:10:52benefits based on their age, that you're not doing them
0:10:52 > 0:10:55a service, because you're not going to deport 11 million people.
0:10:55 > 0:10:59I hate it when people tell folks something I hear that has not
0:10:59 > 0:11:01a snowball's chance in hell of passing.
0:11:01 > 0:11:02What happens to the Republicans?
0:11:02 > 0:11:03Let's say post-election.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06We're going to change or die.
0:11:06 > 0:11:09And what is going to happen to all the Republican voters
0:11:09 > 0:11:11or people who would have been supporting Donald Trump?
0:11:11 > 0:11:17Are they going to come back behind establishment characters like you?
0:11:17 > 0:11:19Here's what I hope they will rally around.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23If you believe in conservatism, help me sell it to a larger audience.
0:11:23 > 0:11:25If you believe it's good to have a strong military,
0:11:25 > 0:11:28so do I.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30But if you want rational immigration reform, count me in,
0:11:30 > 0:11:33but I can't promise you we're going to deport all 11 million.
0:11:34 > 0:11:35Deport the crooks.
0:11:35 > 0:11:37My goal is to have an immigration system that supplements
0:11:37 > 0:11:39the declining workforce.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42What I hope the Trump voter and all those that make up
0:11:42 > 0:11:45the mosaic of the Republican Party will focus on what we have
0:11:45 > 0:11:47in common.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49And understand that without upping our game,
0:11:49 > 0:11:52without growing the political pie, that we're going to die.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54If you're worried about four years of Hillary Clinton,
0:11:54 > 0:11:56what about 2020?
0:11:56 > 0:11:57How do we win?
0:11:57 > 0:11:59Why are we losing?
0:11:59 > 0:12:00I'm not the enemy.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03But you will know, and this is happening in many countries
0:12:03 > 0:12:06around the world, that traditional parties like the Republicans
0:12:06 > 0:12:09are fracturing because people...
0:12:09 > 0:12:13I mean, you don't behave like you're in the same party as Donald Trump.
0:12:13 > 0:12:13And yet...
0:12:13 > 0:12:16Can you really see the Republicans coming together?
0:12:16 > 0:12:19Yes, I think the desire to win will overcome our differences.
0:12:19 > 0:12:19I hope.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23How do you grow the party?
0:12:23 > 0:12:25Young people, 35 and younger.
0:12:25 > 0:12:27You may not believe in climate change, but they do.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31So I want a party that can communicate to young people.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33I'm socially conservative.
0:12:33 > 0:12:34I am pro-life.
0:12:34 > 0:12:36But I am not pro-rape.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39So if a woman is impregnated because of a rape, I think most
0:12:39 > 0:12:42people in America would say that's her decision to make.
0:12:42 > 0:12:48So on social issues, I believe in traditional families.
0:12:48 > 0:12:49But the Supreme Court has ruled.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52Let's protect the church, the mosque and the synagogue
0:12:52 > 0:12:54from performing weddings consistent with their faith,
0:12:54 > 0:12:57but not beat on people just because they have a different lifestyle.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00So many people have said the Republican Party do all this -
0:13:00 > 0:13:04talk about Trump as an inexcusable bigot and then they say while Trump
0:13:04 > 0:13:06should be our next President.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08I'm not saying that.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11I'm not supporting Mr Trump for a variety of reasons.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13You're very critical of what he says about President Putin.
0:13:13 > 0:13:17He has said, I've always felt that Russia and the United States should
0:13:17 > 0:13:20be able to work well with each other towards defeating terrorism
0:13:20 > 0:13:21and restoring world peace.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23Now what is wrong with that?
0:13:23 > 0:13:25Number one, Putin is not an agent for world peace,
0:13:25 > 0:13:27he's a disruptive influence.
0:13:27 > 0:13:28The rule of law matters to me.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30If you have a problem.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33If Scotland wants to break away from the UK, there is a process
0:13:33 > 0:13:35to do it.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38If you have British tanks outside of Scottish homes I would say
0:13:38 > 0:13:40the referendum is probably not fair.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43So the idea that the Crimea in Trump's mind, well they wanted
0:13:43 > 0:13:46to go to Russia, that's not the way you decide such events.
0:13:46 > 0:13:47The Urkaine...
0:13:47 > 0:13:48He's dismembered a neighbouring country.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51It's a proxy war between Russia and the Ukrainian people.
0:13:51 > 0:13:55He's propping up the butcher of Damascus, Assad, who is the most
0:13:55 > 0:13:57disruptive influence in the Middle East.
0:13:57 > 0:14:01So I would say that when it comes to Putin, that he is not
0:14:01 > 0:14:04a friend of freedom.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07Democracy has died inside Russia.
0:14:07 > 0:14:09Every institution of democracy has been snuffed out.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12So if you don't see that as the American president,
0:14:12 > 0:14:16you are making a huge mistake.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19Do you think he represents an existential threat
0:14:19 > 0:14:20to the United States?
0:14:20 > 0:14:24I think the way he has conducted himself is a threat to all of us.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27I think anybody who would dismember their neighbour through the force
0:14:27 > 0:14:29of arms is a threat to all of us.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32I think anybody who would keep a man like Assad in power,
0:14:32 > 0:14:35a disruptive influence time a million, in the Middle East,
0:14:35 > 0:14:37is a threat to us, yes.
0:14:37 > 0:14:41And you have said, I would literally shoot his planes down if he attacked
0:14:41 > 0:14:43the people we trained, because we have to do that.
0:14:43 > 0:14:52You were talking about those US-trained rebels in Syria.
0:14:52 > 0:14:54Here is what I would do.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57I would give the Syrian people the chance to take their country
0:14:57 > 0:15:00back and not have the American people decide who is their
0:15:00 > 0:15:01president, let them decide.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03OK, I asked a different question.
0:15:03 > 0:15:05You would be prepared to shoot down Russian planes?
0:15:05 > 0:15:09Here's the deal, if we're going to train Syrians to take Assad
0:15:09 > 0:15:12on because it's in our interests for him to go, every Arab nation
0:15:12 > 0:15:15objects to Assad being in power because he's a proxy of Iran.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18To leave him in power means that Iran basically controls yet
0:15:18 > 0:15:19another Arab capital.
0:15:19 > 0:15:36So I've concluded it is in the US interests for Assad to go.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39I don't want a war with Russia, I don't want a war with Iran,
0:15:39 > 0:15:41but they are backing Assad.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43If we're going to train the Free Syrian Army
0:15:43 > 0:15:45and they're attacked by Russian helicopters,
0:15:45 > 0:15:48or Syrian forces, we have a moral obligation to help them,
0:15:48 > 0:15:50because they don't have an Air Force.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53You've also argued for troops on the ground, for American troops
0:15:53 > 0:15:55back on the ground in Syria dealing with this.
0:15:55 > 0:15:56And Iraq.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59People would say, are you crazy, look what happened in Iraq,
0:15:59 > 0:16:00look what happened in Afghanistan?
0:16:00 > 0:16:02You know, what I would tell those people?
0:16:02 > 0:16:03Are you crazy?
0:16:03 > 0:16:04Look what's happening?
0:16:04 > 0:16:05450,000 people killed in Syria.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07You have Jordan, Syrian refugees are overrunning
0:16:07 > 0:16:10the kingdom of Jordan, one of the great allies we have.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13Are 20,000 American soldiers going to make a difference?
0:16:13 > 0:16:14Yeah, you need ten.
0:16:14 > 0:16:15It would make a huge difference.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18How do you hold the territory once you liberate Raqqa?
0:16:18 > 0:16:20Have we learned nothing from Iraq?
0:16:20 > 0:16:23You could argue about should we have gone in, but I can promise you,
0:16:23 > 0:16:26if we had stayed, Isil would not exist today.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29Four years ago, his entire national security team told Obama,
0:16:29 > 0:16:31help the Free Syrian Army while they were intact.
0:16:31 > 0:16:32He chose not to.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36Hezbollah came in to help Assad when he was on the ropes,
0:16:36 > 0:16:37now the Russians are in.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40So Assad is being helped by the Russians and Hezbollah,
0:16:40 > 0:16:43an Iranian proxy, and the Free Syrian Army has been abandoned.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46And Syria is ten times worse than if we had done
0:16:46 > 0:16:47this four years ago.
0:16:47 > 0:16:49We have a situation though where actually the Secretary
0:16:49 > 0:16:52of State, John Kerry, has come to a deal with Moscow
0:16:52 > 0:16:54so that there is more coordination on air strikes.
0:16:55 > 0:16:55What a joke.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58This whole concept that we've got to deal with
0:16:58 > 0:16:59the Russians is a joke.
0:16:59 > 0:17:01They're bombing the people we're training.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03Most of their sorties flown against the Free
0:17:03 > 0:17:04Syrian Army, not Isil.
0:17:04 > 0:17:06Russia's interests and ours don't align.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09They're not in there to fight Isil, they are in there to keep Assad
0:17:09 > 0:17:17in power and as soon as we realise that, the better off we will be.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20If you would shoot down Russian planes because there are attacking
0:17:20 > 0:17:21Syrian rebels.
0:17:21 > 0:17:23They would stop attacking Syrian rebels.
0:17:23 > 0:17:23OK.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26Is the same true for Turkey, where of course in recent fighting
0:17:26 > 0:17:27it's hit US-backed Syrian Kurds?
0:17:27 > 0:17:29This is the dilemma with Obama's policy.
0:17:29 > 0:17:33As much as I dislike Erdogan, who is a Putin in the making,
0:17:33 > 0:17:34I understand their problem.
0:17:34 > 0:17:47The YPG Kurds are the main force we're training inside of Syria.
0:17:47 > 0:17:49And the Turkish leader sees them as allied to the PKK.
0:17:49 > 0:17:51And so do I.
0:17:51 > 0:17:52So this whole construct is absurd.
0:17:52 > 0:18:03They're relying on a Kurdish force who doesn't care about Assad.
0:18:03 > 0:18:05But the principle of they're attacking our friends,
0:18:05 > 0:18:08and who have done a huge amount in Syria in America's interests,
0:18:08 > 0:18:10or aligned with America's interests, in reclaiming ground
0:18:10 > 0:18:15from Islamic State.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18I appreciate the fact the Kurds have fought against Isil.
0:18:18 > 0:18:20They're ambivalent about Assad, that's why we're training them.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23The Arabs won't fight unless you promise to take
0:18:23 > 0:18:23Assad out.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26Very few Arabs are coming to the fight just to fight Isil,
0:18:26 > 0:18:30because they see Assad as a bigger threat to the long-term
0:18:31 > 0:18:32future of Syria than Isil.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34If Turkish aeroplanes bomb American special forces helping the Kurds,
0:18:34 > 0:18:38that would be a terrible thing and I hope they can talk about not
0:18:38 > 0:18:43allowing that to happen.
0:18:43 > 0:18:45Turkey says that America must extradite Fethullah Gulen,
0:18:45 > 0:18:56who it believes is behind the recent coup.
0:18:56 > 0:18:57We have a process to do that.
0:18:57 > 0:19:01Should America consider his extradition to Turkey?
0:19:01 > 0:19:04I find Erdogan's Turkey to be a disturbing place.
0:19:04 > 0:19:07I'd be very reluctant to send anybody back to Turkey assuming
0:19:07 > 0:19:10they would get a fair trial, but there is a process in place.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13Turkey is a Nato ally, but in front of us
0:19:13 > 0:19:15we see the breakdown of institutions in Turkey.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18The coup, nobody can support a coup if you believe
0:19:18 > 0:19:20in the democratic process, but look what Erdogan is doing,
0:19:21 > 0:19:31he's becoming a Putin within Nato.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35The justice minister says if the US does not deliver Fethullah Gulen,
0:19:35 > 0:19:37they will sacrifice relations with Turkey for the sake
0:19:37 > 0:19:42of a terrorist.
0:19:42 > 0:19:46I would say we have a process in the United States in terms
0:19:46 > 0:19:48of who we extradite and how.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50Ultimately it's going to be a political decision.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54Yeah, well I don't know if it would be political, I don't know
0:19:54 > 0:19:57how much of it will be the rule of law driven,
0:19:57 > 0:19:59but I would tell our Turkish friends this.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02The road you're going, you're going to sever relationships
0:20:02 > 0:20:05with the United States in the west if you keep this up,
0:20:05 > 0:20:08because no world leader will be able to sit on the sidelines
0:20:08 > 0:20:11in perpetuity and watch Erdogan put everybody in jail he doesn't
0:20:11 > 0:20:13like or has a paranoid view of.
0:20:13 > 0:20:17So here's what I would say, that Turkey to me is a problem that
0:20:17 > 0:20:20can't be ignored much longer and they are on a collision course,
0:20:20 > 0:20:25not only with the United States but the west in general.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27Stop while you still have a chance.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29Let's turn to a different subject.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32That of one of America's, one of the world's biggest companies,
0:20:32 > 0:20:32Apple.
0:20:32 > 0:20:36Now it has been paying an effective tax rate on its European profits of,
0:20:36 > 0:20:38well it was 0.005% in 2014.
0:20:38 > 0:20:44It went up to 1% in 2003.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46That's why the EU's Competition Commissioner has said,
0:20:46 > 0:20:48you owe 13 billion euros in back taxes.
0:20:49 > 0:21:01Should they pay up?
0:21:01 > 0:21:05I tell you what, Ireland is in a bind, because they're
0:21:05 > 0:21:07attracting people to invest in Ireland with low tax rates.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11The rest of us should understand that capital will go where it's most
0:21:11 > 0:21:13welcome, so you can blame Apple all you like.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16But they are a company and they have a duty
0:21:16 > 0:21:18to their shareholders.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21The 35% tax rate in America makes it hard for somebody
0:21:21 > 0:21:23to stay in America.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27If we don't lower our corporate tax rates more people are
0:21:27 > 0:21:28going to go other places.
0:21:28 > 0:21:40As to Ireland, did they violate European laws?
0:21:40 > 0:21:44I can't say I'm an expert, so they will have to fight for
0:21:44 > 0:21:44Apple.
0:21:44 > 0:21:45Let me tell you this.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48If the Irish government doesn't fight for the deal it gave Apple
0:21:48 > 0:21:52and other people, then they're going to be a hard place to do
0:21:52 > 0:21:53business in the future.
0:21:53 > 0:21:54The whole idea of Brussels...
0:21:54 > 0:21:57I think I know why people in England wanted to leave.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00The idea of having a bureaucracy in Brussels more powerful
0:22:00 > 0:22:03than your own parliament probably rubs people the wrong way.
0:22:03 > 0:22:05OK, but there is also, as the Competition Commissioner
0:22:05 > 0:22:08pointed out, and many people have a huge sympathy wit this,
0:22:08 > 0:22:12they see this huge company doing what the rest of us can't do,
0:22:12 > 0:22:15because she said, if my tax bill was 0.05% falling to 0.005%,
0:22:15 > 0:22:17I think I'd take a second look at it.
0:22:17 > 0:22:21We all know that, because that's how individuals have to do behave.
0:22:21 > 0:22:21What's fair?
0:22:21 > 0:22:22There is a process.
0:22:22 > 0:22:26Rather than saying Apple should pay, let's let the process go forward.
0:22:26 > 0:22:27There is an appeal process.
0:22:27 > 0:22:28I do know this.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31It's not surprising me that a company would go to a place
0:22:31 > 0:22:34where there had to pay very little taxes.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36So ultimately that is what needs to be...
0:22:36 > 0:22:39Ultimately we need to make sure our companies pay their fair
0:22:39 > 0:22:41share and we don't drive them away.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43One thing Republicans can do, post-Trump, post-2016,
0:22:43 > 0:22:47is look at some of these hedge funds that enjoy a tax rate of capital
0:22:47 > 0:22:49gains rates versus ordinary income on transactions that probably should
0:22:49 > 0:22:50generate ordinary income.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53I think one of our problems for working-class people
0:22:53 > 0:22:56is we are seeing that we favour the rich way too much.
0:22:56 > 0:22:58I started the programme by commenting on your description
0:22:58 > 0:23:00of Donald Trump as a jackass.
0:23:00 > 0:23:03Now you sound like you have softened on him considerably.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05You've pointed out a lot of criticisms you made
0:23:05 > 0:23:06were in the primaries.
0:23:06 > 0:23:08We are now lost to him.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12What good does it have me to call him names after he beat me?
0:23:12 > 0:23:14He is moving on immigration slightly in a better direction.
0:23:14 > 0:23:16He has modified the Muslim ban.
0:23:16 > 0:23:18There is a chance he might be president.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21At the end of the day, if he is president, don't
0:23:21 > 0:23:24you think he will need all the help he can get?
0:23:24 > 0:23:25I'm a Republican.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28If she wins, as a Democrat, I'm going to help her fix
0:23:28 > 0:23:30an immigration system that is badly broken.
0:23:30 > 0:23:32The next president of the United States will have
0:23:32 > 0:23:35to make hard decisions about Iran and Syria and Iraq.
0:23:35 > 0:23:36I'd like to help.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39If they think we need to send troops into Iraq,
0:23:39 > 0:23:42as a Democrat, I'd like to be the Republican saying, yes,
0:23:42 > 0:23:44she is right to do so.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47If we need a military presence to end the war in Syria
0:23:47 > 0:23:50and have a sustainable victory by holding onto our gains,
0:23:50 > 0:23:52I'd like to give the next president, including Donald Trump
0:23:52 > 0:23:53some political cover.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56I guess what I'm trying to tell your audience,
0:23:56 > 0:23:57that I am 61 years old.
0:23:57 > 0:23:58I ran for president.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00It didn't work out for me.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03I have a pretty good understanding what the next president
0:24:03 > 0:24:06is going to face to the extent that if I can help them,
0:24:06 > 0:24:07I will.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09Senator Lindsey Graham, thank you for coming
0:24:09 > 0:24:09on HARDtalk.
0:24:09 > 0:24:10Thank you.
0:24:10 > 0:24:22Thoroughly enjoyed it.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42Well, a lot of cloud out there early Monday morning,
0:24:42 > 0:24:44it's also very humid, misty around coasts,