0:00:00 > 0:00:05Coming up next, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:05 > 0:00:07Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:07 > 0:00:12I'm Sarah Montague.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15I'm on the shores of Italy's Lake Como, at the Ambrosetti
0:00:15 > 0:00:18Forum.
0:00:18 > 0:00:22It is a chance for the world's great and good to meet and talk
0:00:22 > 0:00:25about global problems.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28For years, Poland has been the poster child of the EU.
0:00:28 > 0:00:29Not any more.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32Its new government has introduced sweeping changes to its constitution
0:00:32 > 0:00:38and laws, changes that the EU says threaten its own democracy.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41In return, Poland has said that its economy is too
0:00:41 > 0:00:42dependent on foreigners.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45My guest today is Poland's finance minister, Pawel Szalamacha.
0:00:45 > 0:01:05Is Poland set on turning inwards and away from the EU?
0:01:05 > 0:01:08Pawel Szalamacha welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Now, Poland has been the fastest-growing economy
0:01:10 > 0:01:12in Europe for the best part of a decade.
0:01:12 > 0:01:20The European Union has served Poland well, hasn't it?
0:01:21 > 0:01:21Well, sort of.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24There are positive sides of being within the EU,
0:01:24 > 0:01:26and a little bit of negative as well.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29So the entire picture is a little bit more complex than just
0:01:29 > 0:01:35yes or no.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38But when you look back at just what has happened to the Polish
0:01:38 > 0:01:45economy - and it is phenomenal.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47It is now the sixth largest country in Europe.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50How much credit do you give to the European Union
0:01:50 > 0:01:53and its position in that, and indeed the policies of previous
0:01:53 > 0:01:54governments within Poland?
0:01:54 > 0:01:57Well, the fact is, it's true that we have not experienced
0:01:57 > 0:01:58anything like the recession during previous years.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01Even during the hardest times of 2009 and 2010,
0:02:01 > 0:02:02the country developed.
0:02:02 > 0:02:06In the worst year for Europe, we grew by 2.6%, so I would say
0:02:06 > 0:02:11that, on the whole, the picture looks bright.
0:02:11 > 0:02:18I think the average GDP growth is just under 5%...
0:02:18 > 0:02:21How much of that is attributable to being a part of the EU
0:02:21 > 0:02:23is obviously another story.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27How much do you think is attributable?
0:02:27 > 0:02:29Look, we had our own instruments of our own policy.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32For examples, we didn't adopt the common currency.
0:02:32 > 0:02:33We didn't adopt the euro.
0:02:33 > 0:02:36And there's a strong opinion within the country that that was one
0:02:36 > 0:02:47of the reasons for which we grew.
0:02:47 > 0:02:51But there are so many more things, and so many things that you have
0:02:51 > 0:02:53changed since taking power last November,
0:02:53 > 0:02:56that have made people question whether this is a deliberate turn
0:02:56 > 0:02:57inwards, and away from EU ideals.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59I would say...
0:02:59 > 0:03:03Look, there's lots of rhetoric about change which took place
0:03:03 > 0:03:07in my country.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10The fact is, for the first time in modern history,
0:03:10 > 0:03:12the government is formed by one party only.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14We won the elections, and for good reasons.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16The previous two successive Liberal governments,
0:03:16 > 0:03:37they had this relative economic success, but they made mistakes
0:03:37 > 0:03:37as well, obviously.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40I would say that we are formulating our own growth agenda,
0:03:40 > 0:03:43and our own policy within Europe on matters like the migration
0:03:43 > 0:03:46crisis, on matters like common policy in terms of growth,
0:03:46 > 0:03:49in terms of competitiveness, and the treatment of our region
0:03:49 > 0:03:52and Poland by some of the decisions, some of the controversial decisions
0:03:52 > 0:03:54by the EU Commission in the past.
0:03:54 > 0:03:55So we are more assertive.
0:03:55 > 0:03:57We are more outspoken.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00But I would not say that the changes are critical, as you just said.
0:04:00 > 0:04:10You said that, actually, with the UK voting to leave the EU,
0:04:10 > 0:04:13that it had a demystifying effect, and it's shown that the EU is no
0:04:13 > 0:04:16longer the only choice for the nations of Europe.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19You even suggested that there may be other countries that leave.
0:04:19 > 0:04:24Who were you thinking of?
0:04:24 > 0:04:27I would say that there are just other options on the table.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30The nations of Europe, the member states, are discussing
0:04:30 > 0:04:32more freely the relative benefits and disadvantages
0:04:32 > 0:04:33of the European Union.
0:04:33 > 0:04:34And it opened the discussion.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37Some of the countries have a stronger sense of identity,
0:04:37 > 0:04:39or a stronger sense of their own value -
0:04:39 > 0:04:41the Nordic countries and Scandinavia.
0:04:41 > 0:05:05They have also expressed their opinions, sometimes critical.
0:05:05 > 0:05:05And Poland?
0:05:05 > 0:05:08Do you include Poland in that, as a country with a strong
0:05:08 > 0:05:09sense of identity?
0:05:09 > 0:05:10Yes, I would say so.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12That is part of our agenda.
0:05:12 > 0:05:13We just...
0:05:13 > 0:05:15Our opinion, that is, of the present government,
0:05:15 > 0:05:17the party which forms the government, was that
0:05:17 > 0:05:20the interests of the few countries only within the European Union
0:05:20 > 0:05:22dominated entire policy, and that the German-Franco tandem
0:05:22 > 0:05:25decided, and everyone else had to accept, sooner or later.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28And this is what created negative feelings, including in the UK.
0:05:28 > 0:05:35Now, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Economic Development Minister,
0:05:35 > 0:05:42Mateusz Morawiecki, said, "The economy is too
0:05:42 > 0:05:45dependent on foreigners."
0:05:45 > 0:06:00What does that mean?
0:06:00 > 0:06:03Well, it means that when we privatised almost our entire
0:06:03 > 0:06:06economy in the 90s, we did it in a very,
0:06:06 > 0:06:07shall I say, hectic manner.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10We went from wholly controlled state economy to its privatisation,
0:06:10 > 0:06:13and quite naturally, because there was no Polish capital
0:06:13 > 0:06:17there, this opening meant that preferred
0:06:17 > 0:06:33buyers were multinationals.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35So do you plan to undo that?
0:06:35 > 0:06:39Is the plan of the new government to try to...?
0:06:39 > 0:06:42There is a sense that we no longer are in charge of our destiny,
0:06:42 > 0:06:46of the development agenda in our country, that everything
0:06:46 > 0:06:48is decided somewhere outside of Polish borders,
0:06:48 > 0:06:50in Europe, in Brussels, for that matter.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53And this creates some kind of resentment, or a sense of not
0:06:54 > 0:07:09being the host in your own country.
0:07:09 > 0:07:11So what do you plan to do about it?
0:07:11 > 0:07:21Look, we will stimulate more our own resources.
0:07:21 > 0:07:25We did say so, that we think that privatisation as such is over.
0:07:25 > 0:07:27The few of the assets which the Polish government
0:07:27 > 0:07:30still owns, like the energy companies, like the oil company,
0:07:30 > 0:07:39the biggest insurance company in Central Europe,
0:07:39 > 0:07:42they will not be offered for sale, and that we will create more
0:07:42 > 0:07:45conditions for the growth of the Polish medium-sized
0:07:45 > 0:07:48businesses, so that they will expand.
0:07:48 > 0:07:57And that is foreign money, that's foreign investment
0:07:57 > 0:07:58that is in the country.
0:07:58 > 0:07:59That's fine.
0:07:59 > 0:08:00Is it welcome?
0:08:00 > 0:08:02Let them grow, let them show what they do.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05But it's that time where you could do very good,
0:08:05 > 0:08:07sweet deals in the past - it's done.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09But it's more than that, isn't it?
0:08:09 > 0:08:11You just said then, "Let them grow."
0:08:11 > 0:08:14But we know, of the changes that have happened, which include a tax
0:08:14 > 0:08:17on bank assets, there is also a tax about to come
0:08:17 > 0:08:19in on large retail groups.
0:08:19 > 0:08:19Yes.
0:08:19 > 0:08:26Foreign ones.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29It's down to the large ones, but it is the foreign ones
0:08:29 > 0:08:31which are going to be hit.
0:08:31 > 0:08:32A new tax.
0:08:32 > 0:08:351.4% on sales.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38And that is just being seen as something that is discriminatory.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40Let's take each of them in turn.
0:08:40 > 0:08:51The UK levies a tax on banks.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54There is the banking levy in the UK, and more than ten jurisdictions
0:08:54 > 0:08:55within the European Union.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58So we are doing nothing extraordinary in this respect.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01And the biggest taxpayer here, the biggest company which faced
0:09:01 > 0:09:03a banking levy is the Polish bank controlled by the government.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06The government is the biggest shareholder - PKOBP.
0:09:06 > 0:09:10The bank listed on the Warsaw stock exchange, and they are paying
0:09:10 > 0:09:16the biggest amount of money.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18There is no discrimination here against foreign...
0:09:18 > 0:09:19OK.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22There are different criticisms of the bank one, but of the retail
0:09:22 > 0:09:25one, you will know that the chair of the Polish Association
0:09:25 > 0:09:30of Commerce and Distribution, Renata Juszkiewicz, said,
0:09:30 > 0:09:33"This is absolutely discrimination, and not a positive step for us.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35And she represents big foreign and...
0:09:35 > 0:09:36Of course.
0:09:36 > 0:09:43I would be very astonished if she said something else.
0:09:43 > 0:09:49She's down there in the sector.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53But if you take that retail tax, it is designed to help Polish
0:09:53 > 0:09:53retailers, isn't it?
0:09:53 > 0:09:57The tax is a relatively small burden in terms of the total revenue
0:09:57 > 0:09:59which we intend to raise.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01It isn't a small burden on supermarkets who have
0:10:01 > 0:10:07very small margins.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10It is totally with intent to raise 400 million euros per year.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12Would you say that is a huge burden?
0:10:12 > 0:10:15Moody's say it will wipe out the operating profit of Tesco
0:10:15 > 0:10:19and Carrefour in Poland.
0:10:19 > 0:10:20Look...
0:10:20 > 0:10:26Is the credit rating agency wrong?
0:10:26 > 0:10:29Companies like that are perfectly, shall I say, optimised
0:10:29 > 0:10:32for the purposes of not paying corporate income tax in Poland.
0:10:32 > 0:10:37For years.
0:10:37 > 0:10:42And they are very skilful at doing that.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45So perhaps with this new measure, they will at least pay a little bit
0:10:45 > 0:11:07of their profits generated in the country.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09They've been growing very well, and paying hardly any tax
0:11:09 > 0:11:11to the government of the host country.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14Do you not think that is a fair sharing of the burden?
0:11:14 > 0:11:16They have this business opportunity.
0:11:16 > 0:11:17They have access to the market.
0:11:17 > 0:11:18That's good.
0:11:18 > 0:11:22And then perhaps a little bit of a tax revenue should also be left
0:11:22 > 0:11:23in Poland as well.
0:11:23 > 0:11:25So if it does wipe out their operating profit,
0:11:25 > 0:11:28that's fine, because they should be paying taxes, and they should be
0:11:28 > 0:11:30paying taxes at this level?
0:11:30 > 0:11:33Well, I don't think it wipes out their operating profits.
0:11:33 > 0:11:34I think that is false.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36You say that the bank tax isn't discriminatory,
0:11:36 > 0:11:39but what people have said about the bank tax is that it
0:11:39 > 0:11:43will damage the economy.
0:11:43 > 0:11:45It is something that has been picked up by the IMF,
0:11:45 > 0:11:48their mission chief in Poland, who said, "By our calculations,
0:11:48 > 0:11:51growth could be reduced by as much as 0.4 percentage points
0:11:51 > 0:11:52because of this distortionary tax."
0:11:52 > 0:12:00Do you accept that?
0:12:00 > 0:12:03I had this discussion with these people, first asking about why
0:12:03 > 0:12:04they use "distortionary", the word.
0:12:04 > 0:12:07They were not very clear about this.
0:12:07 > 0:12:12They just don't like it.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14Perhaps because they are perhaps, mentally, somehow, connected
0:12:14 > 0:12:15with the banking sector.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18As I said, numerous countries, numerous countries levy this tax.
0:12:18 > 0:12:33It is not a Polish invention.
0:12:33 > 0:12:43It's not, but you are levying it at a higher rate
0:12:43 > 0:12:44than other countries.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46And there is a situation where we know it was brought
0:12:47 > 0:12:47in in February.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51In March, when the figures came out, it showed it had had
0:12:51 > 0:12:52an effect on lending.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54But there is a danger it could hobble the economy.
0:12:54 > 0:12:56We were watching this carefully.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59It has been in place for only half of the year,
0:12:59 > 0:13:06bringing stable revenue.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08We have not seen significant negative results on banking
0:13:08 > 0:13:08activity.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12The profits of the banking sector during the first half of the year
0:13:12 > 0:13:14have increased, so this result on lending activity...
0:13:14 > 0:13:18I know they said that we will not be able to finance proper businesses
0:13:18 > 0:13:19and consumers and so on.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22They must wait and observe the full results of the fiscal
0:13:23 > 0:13:23year, and then...
0:13:23 > 0:13:25I declared it at the very beginning.
0:13:25 > 0:13:29We will be with an open mind, and by the way, the impact
0:13:29 > 0:13:32of the tax on the economy.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35The rating agencies, Standard Poor's and Moody's,
0:13:35 > 0:13:43have downgraded Poland.
0:13:43 > 0:13:50For Standard Poor's, it is the first time they've
0:13:51 > 0:13:51downgraded since 1996.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54Are they moving too early, their worries about the Polish
0:13:54 > 0:13:54economy?
0:13:54 > 0:13:56Should they not be worried?
0:13:56 > 0:13:58Standard Poor's have made a decision in January.
0:13:58 > 0:14:00And they've downgraded Poland with express arguments
0:14:00 > 0:14:02supporting their decision being a political situation
0:14:02 > 0:14:03and the so-called political court dispute.
0:14:03 > 0:14:08So it was driven by political motives.
0:14:15 > 0:14:16So it was driven by political motives.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19You mention the crisis over the Constitutional Court.
0:14:19 > 0:14:20Now that has only got worse.
0:14:20 > 0:14:23We have a situation where, as a result of changes
0:14:23 > 0:14:25made by your government to the Constitutional Court,
0:14:25 > 0:14:29both in the appointment of judges and in amendments to the way it
0:14:29 > 0:14:31works, where you have an outcry from people all over
0:14:31 > 0:14:38the world and in Poland...
0:14:38 > 0:14:42Let's go for a head-on collision on that, because I love this issue.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45I love to discuss this issue, although it is our domestic issue.
0:14:45 > 0:14:46It's our domestic problem.
0:14:46 > 0:14:48We knew that the country was changing.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51The previous government was expecting to lose, and lose badly.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54And they changed a law during the summer the previous year,
0:14:54 > 0:14:57which allowed them to elect five members of the Constitutional Court
0:14:57 > 0:15:02before expiry of the term, and they did it.
0:15:02 > 0:15:06They first moved to change the law, and put deputies on the bench.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08And what do you think we did with that?
0:15:08 > 0:15:09We didn't appoint it.
0:15:09 > 0:15:11So what we did was to...
0:15:11 > 0:15:18Appoint your own five?
0:15:18 > 0:15:18No, no.
0:15:18 > 0:15:19And change the rule.
0:15:19 > 0:15:20We outvoted these five.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23We outvoted these five, because if democracy means anything,
0:15:23 > 0:15:26it means that when the term of office of a government person
0:15:26 > 0:15:29expires, the vacancy should be filled by the next house.
0:15:29 > 0:15:31Otherwise, they could elect the people for
0:15:31 > 0:15:45the next ten years.
0:15:45 > 0:15:45Mr Szalamacha.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48We have a situation where your own former president,
0:15:48 > 0:15:50the Nobel Prize winner, Lech Walesa, said of the changes,
0:15:50 > 0:15:52"It could lead to a civil war.
0:15:52 > 0:15:55This could act against Poland, against our achievements, freedom,
0:15:55 > 0:15:58democracy, not to mention the fact that it ridicules as in the world.
0:15:58 > 0:15:59I'm ashamed to travel abroad."
0:16:00 > 0:16:01Come on.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03Again, Mr Walesa dislikes us very, very much.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06I would say "dislike" is a word which is a gross
0:16:06 > 0:16:13understatement on my part.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16So he's only saying that because it's your party,
0:16:16 > 0:16:17not because of what you've done?
0:16:17 > 0:16:18Yeah.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20It's a very intense personal struggle domestic lead lasting ever
0:16:20 > 0:16:21since the early 90s.
0:16:21 > 0:16:25So the European Parliament President, Martin Schulz,
0:16:25 > 0:16:29who says it has the characteristics of a coup, it is a dangerous
0:16:29 > 0:16:30Putinisation of...
0:16:30 > 0:16:31Of course.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34The European Parliament is governed by two major factions.
0:16:34 > 0:16:35The EPP and the socialist Social Democrats.
0:16:35 > 0:16:37Martin Schulz is putting forward the opinions
0:16:37 > 0:16:39of the interest on that.
0:16:39 > 0:16:43It is a shameful act, actually, because they are taking sides.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45We are not intervening in German domestic policy.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48We are not telling German people who should be in charge
0:16:48 > 0:16:50of the country, whether it should be Social Democrats
0:16:50 > 0:16:51or Christian Democrats.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54Martin Schulz takes the freedom - and he's doing this
0:16:54 > 0:16:55in respect of Poland.
0:16:55 > 0:17:12Shame on him.
0:17:12 > 0:17:13Except it's not just Martin Schulz.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16It's also a whole list of people who are critical of this,
0:17:16 > 0:17:19not least Frans Timmerman, who is the Vice President
0:17:19 > 0:17:20of the European Commission.
0:17:20 > 0:17:29He says that the changes pose a systemic risk to the rule of law.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32And he says about the idea that this is just Brussels interfering
0:17:32 > 0:17:34where it shouldn't, he says he was being "dispassionate
0:17:34 > 0:17:36and legal, because the Commission has a duty
0:17:36 > 0:17:38to uphold the rule of law.
0:17:38 > 0:17:40It's a collective responsibility of all member states
0:17:40 > 0:17:45and all EU institutions."
0:17:45 > 0:17:47Frans Timmerman is exceeding the powers he is given
0:17:47 > 0:17:48under EU treaties.
0:17:48 > 0:17:48OK?
0:17:48 > 0:17:52They have no jurisdiction over the case, and they are taking sides
0:17:52 > 0:17:53in a purely domestic political dispute.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56And this kind of hyperactivity leads to the situation like,
0:17:56 > 0:17:59and I quote, like the result of your EU referendum.
0:17:59 > 0:18:09You mean if this carries on, Poland is prepared to leave the EU?
0:18:09 > 0:18:12This kind of hyperactivity on the part of people
0:18:12 > 0:18:14in Brussels is the broad hyperactive interpretation
0:18:14 > 0:18:15of the powers they have.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17It leaves the situation where the member countries,
0:18:17 > 0:18:20and lots of their citizens, feel that they are not
0:18:20 > 0:18:22in charge of their country, and that causes contrary action.
0:18:22 > 0:18:36And it is negative.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39These actions on the part of Mr Timmermans and Mr Schultz
0:18:39 > 0:18:46are detrimental for Europe.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49But the difficulty is, though, that plenty of people say that
0:18:49 > 0:18:52what you are doing is not just about legislation.
0:18:52 > 0:18:54This is about basic constitutional checks on the government,
0:18:54 > 0:18:57which is why you have the professor of Law at Gdansk University,
0:18:57 > 0:19:00who says that this law signals the deathknell for the court.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03It will make it impossible for the court to be
0:19:03 > 0:19:08an effective chamber.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11I can provide you with more and more quotations like that,
0:19:11 > 0:19:13using words like "Soviet", "fascist", "dictatorial",
0:19:13 > 0:19:15"autocracy", and so on and so forth.
0:19:15 > 0:19:15They went mad.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18They just did not accept that they might use elections,
0:19:18 > 0:19:22and that they should wait a full four years for the second chance.
0:19:22 > 0:19:26It is not up to the Constitutional Court itself to decide who will be
0:19:26 > 0:19:27sitting on the bench.
0:19:27 > 0:19:38Let's move to the question of immigration, because over
0:19:38 > 0:19:41the last few weeks, we have seen, yet again, thousands of refugees
0:19:41 > 0:19:44crossing the Mediterranean, trying to get into the European Union.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47In May, the leader of your party, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, said Poland
0:19:47 > 0:19:50wouldn't be accepting a single refugee because there is no
0:19:50 > 0:19:52mechanism that would ensure the safety of Poland.
0:19:52 > 0:19:54And he was commenting after attacks in Brussels and Paris.
0:19:54 > 0:20:04Is it still the case that Poland won't take any migrants?
0:20:04 > 0:20:06That's the position as it is now.
0:20:06 > 0:20:08We don't think the mandatory mechanisms for relocating
0:20:08 > 0:20:09the migrants will solve the problem.
0:20:09 > 0:20:11It will aggravate the problem.
0:20:11 > 0:20:20It will encourage more and more people to come to Europe.
0:20:20 > 0:20:24The problem should be addressed down there in Libya or in Syria,
0:20:24 > 0:20:26and this was our position ever since the beginning.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29We said that first - and we were not the country
0:20:29 > 0:20:41which opened Syria or Libya, meaning aggressive
0:20:41 > 0:20:43towards their governments - but the security situation
0:20:44 > 0:20:44should be stabilised.
0:20:44 > 0:20:51The international community, including my country,
0:20:51 > 0:20:53should put up more money for the refugees down there,
0:20:53 > 0:20:56to Jordan, to Turkey, and we are paying our share.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59You know that Greece and Italy are facing huge difficulties
0:20:59 > 0:21:00as a result of those arriving.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03Do you not have some sense of responsibility to those
0:21:03 > 0:21:24fellow EU members to help?
0:21:24 > 0:21:27First, if you need to, if you genuinely want to address
0:21:27 > 0:21:30the issue, then the border of the European Union should be
0:21:30 > 0:21:32effectively monitored, and we have the feeling
0:21:32 > 0:21:35that it's not being done on the Aegean Sea by Greece.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37So it's the first step, that the EU effectively
0:21:37 > 0:21:38controls its external border.
0:21:38 > 0:21:39And we will help.
0:21:39 > 0:21:41We are sending our personnel.
0:21:41 > 0:21:46We are sending the border guards to these countries.
0:21:46 > 0:21:48To send them back into the sea?
0:21:48 > 0:21:50No, no, no.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52To stop them from crossing the border.
0:21:52 > 0:21:54The difficulty is that many people see...
0:21:54 > 0:21:56That this is not about numbers.
0:21:56 > 0:22:01It is about something else.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04Because in October last year, at the time of the election,
0:22:04 > 0:22:05the leader of your party said,
0:22:05 > 0:22:08"Migrants carry all sorts of parasites and protozoa,
0:22:08 > 0:22:10which, while not dangerous in the organisms of these people,
0:22:10 > 0:22:11could be dangerous here."
0:22:11 > 0:22:13Do you think that's true?
0:22:13 > 0:22:14I don't know.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17I should ask the medical records.
0:22:17 > 0:22:20Do you consider that it could even be true?
0:22:20 > 0:22:21Pardon?
0:22:21 > 0:22:24The idea that those people, migrants, any form of migrant,
0:22:24 > 0:22:26is carrying parasites?
0:22:26 > 0:22:30I'm afraid it might be true, if they are coming from the regions
0:22:30 > 0:22:33where there is a war, where there is a famine,
0:22:33 > 0:22:36where there is a state of hygiene and all kinds of problems.
0:22:36 > 0:22:37Therefore, we are saying...
0:22:37 > 0:22:40And we are putting up money, to help Jordan, to help
0:22:40 > 0:22:41Lebanon, to help Turkey.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44That the issue was addressed down there with the people coming,
0:22:44 > 0:22:56where the refugees are, helping in these areas.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59But can you see why people would have found it distasteful
0:22:59 > 0:23:03to talk about these people carrying parasites and protozoa?
0:23:03 > 0:23:06Of course.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09And that's why we say that both Syria and the countries
0:23:09 > 0:23:12which I mentioned should be helped to resolve the issue down
0:23:12 > 0:23:13there, where it emerges, where it's created,
0:23:13 > 0:23:15where the issue is generated.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17And the Catholic Church in Poland says that, actually,
0:23:17 > 0:23:20people who are coming from Syria should be treated
0:23:20 > 0:23:21with brotherhood and respect.
0:23:21 > 0:23:23They are far more sympathetic to the idea
0:23:23 > 0:23:28of Poland accepting people.
0:23:28 > 0:23:29Right.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31The Catholic church is in charge of leading people
0:23:31 > 0:23:33to its salvation of the souls.
0:23:33 > 0:23:46The government is in charge of the security of the country.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48And we have division between the church
0:23:48 > 0:23:49and state in Poland.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51Believe it or not, we do.
0:23:51 > 0:23:53Pawel Szalamacha, thank you very much
0:23:53 > 0:23:54for coming on HARDtalk.
0:23:54 > 0:24:01Thank you.
0:24:27 > 0:24:28Good morning.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31This week has the potential to bring us some pretty high temperatures.
0:24:31 > 0:24:33Potential that has not been unlocked yet.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36Largely because of all the cloud draped across the country.
0:24:36 > 0:24:37Monday was a rather cloudy day.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40We saw one or two sunny breaks developing particularly
0:24:40 > 0:24:40by the afternoon.