:00:00. > :00:11.Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Stephen Sackur.
:00:12. > :00:15.When elected politicians are booted out by the voters,
:00:16. > :00:18.there's no safety net to soften their fall.
:00:19. > :00:22.My guest today has the bruises to prove it.
:00:23. > :00:25.Ed Balls was one of the key players of the UK Labour Party's era
:00:26. > :00:31.of political dominance under those partners and rivals Blair and Brown.
:00:32. > :00:33.He was a formidable political operator,
:00:34. > :00:37.whose ambition was to lead his party.
:00:38. > :00:39.He failed in that, and last year lost his seat,
:00:40. > :00:42.as the unravelling of the Labour Party began in earnest.
:00:43. > :01:16.How does a political heavyweight make sense of failure?
:01:17. > :01:28.Good to be here. Do you have the feeling that your political career
:01:29. > :01:34.did end in failure? I lost my seat, so of course. Every political career
:01:35. > :01:39.tends to end in some kind of value. You get going out as a government
:01:40. > :01:43.blues your constituency. The thing in politics is always to look back
:01:44. > :01:47.and say, are there things that are different than they would have been?
:01:48. > :01:50.Did you make the difference? I can look back and say they are really
:01:51. > :01:58.important things that happened because I was there. I read it was a
:01:59. > :02:02.failure, it was important time for the country and may -- I don't
:02:03. > :02:07.think. Did you make the most of incredible opportunities that you
:02:08. > :02:14.and Tony Blair's Labour and your Labour had? He won elections with an
:02:15. > :02:19.amazing mandate, but when we talk about the achievements, they were
:02:20. > :02:23.limited. I don't think there will limited at all, but we did not make
:02:24. > :02:26.the most of them. We always look back on life and think could you
:02:27. > :02:31.have done things differently or better? Did we make mistakes? In
:02:32. > :02:35.politics as in life, you always make some mistakes, but where there are
:02:36. > :02:39.some we could have avoided? Of course. But we did not join the
:02:40. > :02:43.single currency, which was an important decision for Brent. We
:02:44. > :02:48.introduce the minimum national wage, and we made the NHS strong and
:02:49. > :02:53.secure the future -- for Britain. We changed the way things happen with
:02:54. > :03:00.sexuality in gay marriage. We did things politically that a flustered.
:03:01. > :03:04.It was a big reforming of men. You left the government in a state which
:03:05. > :03:09.just a few years later sees it unravelling, and is one of its
:03:10. > :03:15.members of parliament said to me, Frank Field, in a death spiral. That
:03:16. > :03:19.is part of the legacy. If you look around the world at the Republicans,
:03:20. > :03:22.Democrats, the Labour Party and the Conservative Party, what is
:03:23. > :03:28.happening in France, the rise of Marine Le Pen, there are bigger
:03:29. > :03:32.trends and challenges happening, and rightly we did not address some of
:03:33. > :03:36.those challenges. But if you look at the rise of Donald Trump and what is
:03:37. > :03:39.happening to the Republican Party, that is similar, in you constantly
:03:40. > :03:44.say that the crisis in global politics in the developed world at
:03:45. > :03:54.the moment MBP and on the door of Gordon Brown or Tony Blair. -- at
:03:55. > :04:00.the moment. How is it that 13 years in power, and far from making a more
:04:01. > :04:07.equitable society, inequality as defined by this, located
:04:08. > :04:14.coefficient, actually rose and your watch -- complicated. If you look at
:04:15. > :04:18.the history from the mid-19 70s, he saw a huge rise in inequality that
:04:19. > :04:25.happened in every country. You didn't it got worse. If you look up
:04:26. > :04:29.until 2010, we arrested it. We slowed down the rise in inequality,
:04:30. > :04:35.but not by enough. If you look at the top and, as Peter medicine
:04:36. > :04:39.famously said, your party was intensely relaxed about the rich
:04:40. > :04:48.getting ever richer -- Peter Mandelson. That was a symbol of your
:04:49. > :04:51.time in office. That was not particular Labour problem, it has
:04:52. > :04:57.happened around the world. We addressed it in the relationship in
:04:58. > :05:00.the middle and bottom. We had a huge reduction in child poverty. We got
:05:01. > :05:04.more people into work than ever before, for the financial crisis.
:05:05. > :05:10.You are right that the gap between the middle and the top rose
:05:11. > :05:13.inexorably over that period, and it wasn't something we ever found a way
:05:14. > :05:18.to address. Why? This is really important. Not long ago we had
:05:19. > :05:22.Thomas Picardy talking about the corrosive impact of inequality. You
:05:23. > :05:27.hear it from politicians like Barack Obama. Inequality has become the
:05:28. > :05:31.watchword for the problems of the rich today. You had 13 years in
:05:32. > :05:35.power to address it, and you are supposed to be a brilliant
:05:36. > :05:42.economist. Why didn't you address a? Is not an easy solution to the
:05:43. > :05:46.globalisation of talent. Whether you are talking about lawyers or bankers
:05:47. > :05:51.or footballers of fashion models of film actors, as the world globalise
:05:52. > :05:55.us, they can perform and do that in any part of the world, it pulls up
:05:56. > :05:59.their income on what they can get in the world marketplace and head to
:06:00. > :06:04.the average in any country. -- compared to the average. There is no
:06:05. > :06:09.global government to put a cap on that. No, but I come back to the
:06:10. > :06:13.point that some of the things she failed to do now being addressed by
:06:14. > :06:16.a new brand of socialist in the Labour Party, and talking about
:06:17. > :06:20.Jeremy Corbyn, but his challenger in the battle for the leadership, Owen
:06:21. > :06:25.Smith, is talking about a wealth tax and saying if we are serious as
:06:26. > :06:29.socialists about redistribution, there we have to get serious about
:06:30. > :06:34.imposing much greater tax burdens on the most wealthy. And you would
:06:35. > :06:39.never ever do that. I want to know why not? We did it in our last
:06:40. > :06:44.manifesto, talking about a way to tax housing wealth. You didn't do
:06:45. > :06:53.anything about it. We didn't win the election. We didn't exactly was in
:06:54. > :06:57.our manifesto to do so. There was no clear intent to go after the richest
:06:58. > :07:02.in society and tackle this problem of redistribution. Many people would
:07:03. > :07:06.say we lost the election because we looked like we were trying to do too
:07:07. > :07:09.much to clobber the rich without doing enough to make the economy
:07:10. > :07:16.grow, and back aspiration. You can argue it both ways. You have
:07:17. > :07:19.encapsulated the struggle within the Labour Party today, at the
:07:20. > :07:24.membership has decided that the Gordon Brown and Tony Blair approach
:07:25. > :07:29.to politics, which is near a liberal or Tory Lite, some have said, is not
:07:30. > :07:34.authentic enough for a centre-left party in the 20 century. The voters
:07:35. > :07:38.take a different view. In my constituency in Morley and Outwood,
:07:39. > :07:42.there will Liberal Democrat from 2010 who voted Conservative as they
:07:43. > :07:48.were not short a trusted the Labour government. -- they were not sure
:07:49. > :07:52.they trusted. The reason we didn't win the last election is because we
:07:53. > :07:55.went left-wing and off, some said. But that is totally out of touch
:07:56. > :08:02.with reality. We did not win people's trust. To make the economy
:08:03. > :08:07.stronger and there. I agree with you on tackling inequality. While tax is
:08:08. > :08:12.hard. For decades, people have advocated it and found it very hard
:08:13. > :08:15.to do in no way which would... To tax wealth is part of what any
:08:16. > :08:20.government to try to do, whether that is the inheritance or housing
:08:21. > :08:24.wealth, in end, I think we lost the election because people did not
:08:25. > :08:30.think we would do enough to make the stronger rather than just the
:08:31. > :08:33.redistribute. I want to move away from policy-making, which was your
:08:34. > :08:40.main concern in politics, and talk about the way politics is done, the
:08:41. > :08:45.practice of politics. Do you think you were a good politician? I wasn't
:08:46. > :08:49.a perfect politician. I don't think anyone gets ten out of ten in every
:08:50. > :08:55.category. I made mistakes and all politicians do. The politicians try
:08:56. > :08:59.to learn from mistakes, wrote a consensus, show their values and
:09:00. > :09:03.objectives are translated into action and have people say,
:09:04. > :09:07.actually, what they have done is sufficiently good and we should
:09:08. > :09:13.stick with it. I did some good things the past those test, not
:09:14. > :09:17.everything. Why do think those inside the policy-making machine in
:09:18. > :09:22.number ten found to toxic? Some said they could not stand to be in the
:09:23. > :09:26.room with you? When you with the special advisor to the Treasury,
:09:27. > :09:32.Gordon Brown's sidekick essentially, why do some people inside, ten so
:09:33. > :09:36.your behaviour was unacceptable. I'm not sure who these people are, and
:09:37. > :09:49.you would have to tell me names. Peter medicine. The unbridled
:09:50. > :09:54.contempt that he had for Gordon Brown and others was destructive.
:09:55. > :09:59.There were times when... There were times when we too heavy. On the
:10:00. > :10:03.issue of the euro, when we fought hard to make sure we did not join
:10:04. > :10:10.the euro, there were times when we too heavy-handed. But that is a
:10:11. > :10:17.piece of learning. But it is not bullying. I've lost count of the
:10:18. > :10:21.number of times people said they could not bear to be in the room
:10:22. > :10:31.with Ed Balls, his rudeness, his bearing of grudges, and reinforce
:10:32. > :10:37.and reflect the West expects of tanning Blair, is the quote -- worst
:10:38. > :10:42.aspects of Tony Blair. Bullies try to pick on weaker people and nearly
:10:43. > :10:47.again. At moments, I spoke true to power. Gordon Brown was the Prime
:10:48. > :10:51.Minister and more powerful, but it was our job to save from time to
:10:52. > :10:55.time, that is the wrong thing to do and we should not go down that road.
:10:56. > :11:01.That is not bullying. Sometimes we were to intellectually steamrolling,
:11:02. > :11:06.not bullies. Living side bullying, where was your focus? We know from
:11:07. > :11:11.leaked documents into those 11 that Gordon Brown, you and a lot of other
:11:12. > :11:17.people around him, you spent an awful lot of time planning how to
:11:18. > :11:22.get Tony Blair out and get Gordon Brown into number ten -- in 2011.
:11:23. > :11:29.Those meetings went on and on. What was that about? Those meetings were
:11:30. > :11:35.with Tony Blair. Before the 2005 election. There was a discussion
:11:36. > :11:39.about how to win the election which some senior figures said maybe Tony
:11:40. > :11:43.Blair would need to announce he was going to stand aside. In the end, it
:11:44. > :11:47.did not come to that, but they were seen together in that election
:11:48. > :11:52.campaign in a close way. There was this project for Bob, which you
:11:53. > :11:57.obviously know all about, because you were all about it -- Volvo. Tony
:11:58. > :12:04.Blair was not part of project Volvo. They were a serious of meetings
:12:05. > :12:08.which involved Alastair Campbell, myself, Ed Miliband and others, to
:12:09. > :12:12.talk about how we would manage the transition from Tony Blair to Gordon
:12:13. > :12:17.Brown, and the project Volvo you talk about, giving Tony was going to
:12:18. > :12:21.stand down, and giving the expectation was that Gordon Brown
:12:22. > :12:25.will take over, there was work done within the Treasury about how Gordon
:12:26. > :12:28.Brown would then pick up the reins and carry on. The idea that was
:12:29. > :12:33.somehow a secret attempt to unseat Tony Blair is untrue. It was being
:12:34. > :12:37.done with the knowledge of Tony Blair and his team. Won you it
:12:38. > :12:42.badly, because so many people around Tony Blair got the impression you
:12:43. > :12:46.were secretly plotting to getting out as soon as possible. We were
:12:47. > :12:50.openly having common sessions with Tony Blair and his team about the
:12:51. > :12:54.transition. We called it a stable and orderly transition, which we
:12:55. > :12:58.managed to get. There will always be some people who were not on either
:12:59. > :13:01.side of what was going on who will throw around these allegations. But
:13:02. > :13:04.the people on the inside you what we were doing. Of course there were
:13:05. > :13:08.differences and arguments because Gordon but Tony should go more
:13:09. > :13:13.quickly, and he wanted to stay longer. Ed Miliband and Pat McFadden
:13:14. > :13:17.did meetings with ministers across the divide to work on policy
:13:18. > :13:24.together. The attempt was to make a cohesive. Let's bring back to to the
:13:25. > :13:29.Labour Party is today. Any people feel that corrosive rivalry between
:13:30. > :13:33.Blair and Brown, and you would not denied there was a robbery, in the
:13:34. > :13:37.end, it got the party elite looking so much at the tactical battles that
:13:38. > :13:42.they did not actually look at the strategic long-term -- there was a
:13:43. > :13:49.robbery. A respected analysts said recently the party's elite over the
:13:50. > :13:51.years gained power from Labour's traditional structures, centralised
:13:52. > :13:56.significant authority in the leader and entourage, and even as the
:13:57. > :14:04.party's oligarchs preached the virtues, they fought one another
:14:05. > :14:09.with shameless ferocity. I don't think Tony and Gordon did enough to
:14:10. > :14:14.reach out to the party. They had the national policy Forum, an attempt to
:14:15. > :14:17.build cohesion in the party. In my book, I actually talked a lot about
:14:18. > :14:21.some of the lessons from this period. I say first of all Warren
:14:22. > :14:26.Brown and Tony Blair were always much closer than people understood
:14:27. > :14:30.-- Gordon Brown. But with the Tories being weak and the whole issue being
:14:31. > :14:34.the succession from Blair to Brown, there were times when the prism of
:14:35. > :14:38.politics became about the fight for the succession. If you take the
:14:39. > :14:42.National Health Service and the argument about foundation hospitals,
:14:43. > :14:47.there was a deliberate attempt by people around Tony to say because
:14:48. > :14:51.Gordon will not back that reform, he is therefore antireform and should
:14:52. > :14:55.not be allowed to take over. It was all about the succession and prism
:14:56. > :15:01.of politics. Are you saying that was destructive or village? -- foolish?
:15:02. > :15:06.The idea it was driven by Gordon Brown or his team is not true.
:15:07. > :15:13.Let's not fight those battles but I am trying to talk about whether you
:15:14. > :15:16.would acknowledge - we are talking about mistakes, the way the Labour
:15:17. > :15:20.Party at the top handled itself is related to Jeremy Corbyn's message
:15:21. > :15:24.today that from now on we let the neighbours decide, it is the mass
:15:25. > :15:27.membership of the party that will drive it forward and he is even
:15:28. > :15:31.talking about members rolling integers the shadow cabinet. Jeremy
:15:32. > :15:34.Corbyn is trying to offer something different for Labour members.
:15:35. > :15:40.Political parties are unusual because they are not like a tennis
:15:41. > :15:43.club or a membership society, they have a responsibility to make sure
:15:44. > :15:47.that the views of the members are listened to and taken on board and
:15:48. > :15:50.they have a responsibility to voters. You can have hundreds of
:15:51. > :15:54.thousands of members but you have millions of voters and it is the job
:15:55. > :15:58.of people who are directly elected by the voters to make sure they are
:15:59. > :16:03.in touch with what voters think as well as what members think. There is
:16:04. > :16:07.always in the Labour Party tension between people who said members
:16:08. > :16:11.should run everything and the members of parliament who say it is
:16:12. > :16:15.not just about members but voters as well. When Jeremy Corbyn in should
:16:16. > :16:22.be driven by the members there is a river danger in that. You can lose
:16:23. > :16:26.touch as a political party. You can have a members meeting where 2000
:16:27. > :16:30.people cheer you very loudly but it doesn't translate into election
:16:31. > :16:33.victories unless voters are on-site and Jeremy Butler problem at the
:16:34. > :16:37.moment is for all his cheery members when it comes to the voters they are
:16:38. > :16:41.not supporting him which is why we are so behind on the polls --
:16:42. > :16:45.cheering. We might come back to that but in your book you talk about
:16:46. > :16:48.mistakes and you say that you know post- political office it is
:16:49. > :16:51.possible to be honest about mistakes made. One of your biggest mistakes
:16:52. > :16:56.was when you were responsible as Secretary of State for children,
:16:57. > :17:02.essentially for education and childcare, and you have to face a
:17:03. > :17:06.horrible, horrible situation in north London went a very young
:17:07. > :17:12.child, a baby had been killed under the care of its mother and her up at
:17:13. > :17:17.no and another individual -- and her partner. And you took the decision
:17:18. > :17:22.after an investigation to fire the director of children's services in
:17:23. > :17:27.that Haringey council. That was handled badly, wasn't it? No, it was
:17:28. > :17:32.the right decision, and in the same circumstances I would make the same
:17:33. > :17:35.decision against. What happened in the court subsequently, the court
:17:36. > :17:39.said we made a legal procedural mistake. And I fully accept that. On
:17:40. > :17:44.the substance of the decision, what had happened was there had been a
:17:45. > :17:49.tragic death and a public outcry. I for three weeks had held off as you
:17:50. > :17:52.said that they in media waiting for the Independent report I
:17:53. > :17:58.commissioned. -- aiding media. If the report arrived on my desk and
:17:59. > :18:02.said it was not the result of the Haringey council would have backed
:18:03. > :18:06.them 100% but when the report came it was devastating about leadership
:18:07. > :18:10.failures. I would defy you if you read the report or anyone in the
:18:11. > :18:13.same circumstance to make a different decision. It was the only
:18:14. > :18:16.way to keep children safe in Haringey and animate the right
:18:17. > :18:20.decision. We will get to the court in a minute but you say in the book
:18:21. > :18:23.quite clearly, one newspaper editor threatened me saying I had the power
:18:24. > :18:29.to remove shoesmith and they would come to me if I didn't. Who was
:18:30. > :18:32.that? I am not going to start talking about the individual names
:18:33. > :18:35.of private conversations but... What does it say about your relationship
:18:36. > :18:39.with senior figures, editors in the national press, that they felt free
:18:40. > :18:44.and able to say that sort of thing to you? What kind of relationship
:18:45. > :18:47.did you have with them? If you are a cabinet minister and you have a
:18:48. > :18:51.telephone call from an editor, you take the call and I took the called.
:18:52. > :18:54.This wasn't any old call, it was someone saying, if you don't fire
:18:55. > :18:59.that woman, we will come after you. And I said that is an unacceptable
:19:00. > :19:03.thing to say to me, I am not going to continue this phone call, I said
:19:04. > :19:07.I am not going to make decisions on that basis top weight and then you
:19:08. > :19:13.fired... No, I commissioned an independent report -- on that basis.
:19:14. > :19:16.And then you fired... If it said there wasn't... The bottom line is
:19:17. > :19:20.you never heard her version of events because you didn't call her
:19:21. > :19:24.in to have a chat with her after the report was issued, and the court,
:19:25. > :19:28.hang on, when the court decided you had behaved from week and gave her
:19:29. > :19:36.600 and something thousand pounds and a settlement, the court said,
:19:37. > :19:39.and I am quoting here, it seems that the making of a public sacrifice to
:19:40. > :19:46.deflect press and public obloquy remains an accepted expedient of
:19:47. > :19:51.public administration - that was a slight directly at you. It was not
:19:52. > :19:55.at all. That was not the way the decision was made. There was an
:19:56. > :19:59.independent report. She and others in Haringey were spoken to as part
:20:00. > :20:03.of the Independent report. When the independent report came it was
:20:04. > :20:06.devastating. The legal advice to me from
:20:07. > :20:10.devastating. The legal advice to me the civil service was I should not
:20:11. > :20:15.meet with Shoesmith directly because she was a member of Haringey and my
:20:16. > :20:19.duty under the children act to keep children safe allowed me to remove
:20:20. > :20:23.her... The court said you did it wrong. The court record is you got
:20:24. > :20:28.it plain wrong. A set a moment ago that procedure really not seeing
:20:29. > :20:33.Shoesmith which I was advised not to do, was a mistake but as I said in
:20:34. > :20:36.the book if I had seen Shoesmith it would have made no impact on my
:20:37. > :20:41.decision because the independent report was devastating about
:20:42. > :20:44.leadership and management daily at Haringey and on the basis that my
:20:45. > :20:47.job was not to project any individual's job but to keep
:20:48. > :20:50.children safe in Haringey, the only way to do that was to make the
:20:51. > :20:55.decision to change the leadership, that is what I did and I would do it
:20:56. > :20:59.against. Left and with a thought, one more thought about Labour and
:21:00. > :21:01.where it is today and where it is going. It strikes me as very
:21:02. > :21:05.interesting that the Conservative Party, having got rid of David
:21:06. > :21:09.Cameron, has put a woman in the leadership arty... Not for the first
:21:10. > :21:17.time. Not for the first time - not for the first time. Labour has never
:21:18. > :21:21.had a female leader. Yvette Cooper could have been a very realistic
:21:22. > :21:25.proposition for leading the Labour Party and I'm not thinking about
:21:26. > :21:28.2015 but when she could have run in 2010 and she didn't because you and
:21:29. > :21:33.she got together and decided you should run. Do you regret that?
:21:34. > :21:39.Well, I said to her in 2010 that if she wanted to run then I would stand
:21:40. > :21:43.aside and she should run because I thought it would be better for the
:21:44. > :21:47.Labour Party if she had run rather than me and I think she had a really
:21:48. > :21:51.good chance of winning, certainly a better chance than me but she made a
:21:52. > :21:55.decision that it was the wrong type of and it was too early she felt the
:21:56. > :22:00.children for two -- were too long for her to do it and she said no it
:22:01. > :22:05.is not my time and on that basis I did it. I think it would have been
:22:06. > :22:09.better if she had but she didn't. In 2015.. Did you say to her, I take
:22:10. > :22:13.your point, it is not my business, but it is a look that children am I
:22:14. > :22:17.can handle the children... We are an equal partnership, go for it if
:22:18. > :22:21.politically you want to go for it and I will be the main carer Tom did
:22:22. > :22:25.you say that? Of course but in 2015 when I lost my seat, and even if I
:22:26. > :22:30.had stayed in parliament, that was the time she was going to run and I
:22:31. > :22:34.would have absolutely done all the things you have just set and I was
:22:35. > :22:38.hoping she would win and I thought she would be the best candidate to
:22:39. > :22:41.win. But back in 2010 it was her choice and was that for a woman in
:22:42. > :22:45.politics it was different for the man. She felt that while I felt that
:22:46. > :22:49.I could manage the job and have young children, she didn't feel that
:22:50. > :22:53.she could, she thought she needed the children to be older, that was
:22:54. > :22:57.her call. I think it would be better for Labour if she stood in 2010 but
:22:58. > :23:01.in the end in a relationship in a partnership, in a marriage, you have
:23:02. > :23:05.to respect the other's view and her view was she didn't want to, if she
:23:06. > :23:08.wanted to she would have run. And that Lee she still has a job,
:23:09. > :23:16.political job, she is an MP... Sitting on a football club and doing
:23:17. > :23:20.all these things. It is all entertaining but I suspect there is
:23:21. > :23:23.a part of you that is deeply frustrated right now. Well, of
:23:24. > :23:28.course because it is such an important, dangerous, unstable time
:23:29. > :23:34.in the world and I know from the inside how purposeful being a
:23:35. > :23:37.politician and member of the government can be, purposeful
:23:38. > :23:41.individually, solving a constituent's difficulty, purposeful
:23:42. > :23:45.as a cabinet minister trying to forge a way forward for the nation,
:23:46. > :23:49.and I experienced that and that is not currently my life and may never
:23:50. > :23:53.be again - probably won't be. You say never be but you're not rolling
:23:54. > :23:57.it out? I think you never say never but in all likelihood I have had my
:23:58. > :24:03.chance and we should always look forward. Do I miss that? Yes. It is
:24:04. > :24:08.very special. The reason I backed her is... Does she have a chance,
:24:09. > :24:13.that purpose again? She is envious of me being on a dancing show and I
:24:14. > :24:17.am envious of her being a politician with a chance to be in government
:24:18. > :24:19.again, of course. Ed Balls, thanks for being on HARDtalk thank you very
:24:20. > :24:41.much. This week has certainly delivered
:24:42. > :24:44.on warmth and humidity but for many it has struggled to deliver
:24:45. > :24:48.on sunshine so far. Looking back, you can see
:24:49. > :24:53.there was quite a lot of cloud.