:00:00. > :00:17.Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. The pro-democracy Umbrella
:00:18. > :00:20.Protests in Hong Kong a couple of years ago ended up as something of a
:00:21. > :00:26.damp squib, but the young leaders of the movement haven't disappeared.
:00:27. > :00:29.Nathan Law has just won a seat in Hong Kong's Legislative Council and
:00:30. > :00:31.he's at the head of a so-called localist movement demanding a
:00:32. > :00:39.referendum on self-determination for the territory. Will Beijing try to
:00:40. > :01:19.silence Nathan Law? THEME PLAYS. Nathan Law, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:20. > :01:27.Hello. Hello, everyone. You are in Hong Kong. Let me start by asking
:01:28. > :01:32.you to reflect on the Umbrella Protests which you were very much
:01:33. > :01:41.involved in. What lesson to you draw from their failure? The Umbrella
:01:42. > :01:47.Movement, actually, by the end of the Umbrella Movement, we didn't get
:01:48. > :01:52.political reform to lead Hong Kong in a democratic direction. We don't
:01:53. > :02:00.have a direct seat on the Legislative Council. But I feel like
:02:01. > :02:05.there is a huge legacy left to us. A lot of people are actually being
:02:06. > :02:17.politically enlightened. So, there are lots of people getting really
:02:18. > :02:21.active in our society. Attendance in this recent election are the highest
:02:22. > :02:30.ever. That reflects on the Umbrella Movement. Let us and pick this a
:02:31. > :02:34.bit. You were a 21 21-year-old demanding democracy in the vote for
:02:35. > :02:40.the Chief Executive of Hong Kong. Here you are, two years later, not
:02:41. > :02:46.as an outsider on the streets any more, but as something of an
:02:47. > :02:50.insider, who stood for election and won a place in the Legislative
:02:51. > :03:01.Council is up the have you made that transition from our guide --
:03:02. > :03:04.outsider to insider? The reason we wanted to participate in that
:03:05. > :03:09.Legislative Council election is we hoped we could get a sustainable
:03:10. > :03:16.political influence in society. As you know, the social movement has
:03:17. > :03:21.its ups and downs. The influence of that may fluctuate. If you want to
:03:22. > :03:26.push for a new direction of a democratic movement it means that
:03:27. > :03:31.they last for years. So I believe that for us it is very important for
:03:32. > :03:35.us to get into the system and get the resources and influence. If I
:03:36. > :03:41.might stop you there, Gregory, you're hard line colleagues would
:03:42. > :03:50.say you have been co-opted by the system and have bowed before the
:03:51. > :03:53.power of the Chinese backed system. -- Nathan Law, your hardline. I
:03:54. > :03:58.believe it is not contradictory for us to get into the council. For us
:03:59. > :04:07.to have social movement, that gets us resources and influence for us to
:04:08. > :04:13.facilitate our movement. That is a co-operate in system for us. I
:04:14. > :04:17.suppose the point is that even to stand for election in the council
:04:18. > :04:22.you had to make compromises. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you
:04:23. > :04:26.signed an oath of loyalty which basically required you to agree that
:04:27. > :04:30.Hong Kong was, to quote the oath, an inalienable part of China, and that
:04:31. > :04:37.he would accept criminal prosecution for denying that concept. So, some
:04:38. > :04:41.of your colleagues, as I say, some of the other student protest
:04:42. > :04:46.leaders, refused to sign that and refused to sign for election, but
:04:47. > :04:51.you happily signed it. Well, actually, for every participant in
:04:52. > :05:00.the Legislative Council, we have to sign that. And for the others who
:05:01. > :05:04.are signing up for candidacy, they also signs that paper. For other
:05:05. > :05:10.people, they know that it is kind of a compromise, but not compromising
:05:11. > :05:14.our beliefs. It is just a process. For us, we still fight for
:05:15. > :05:19.self-determination. It is crystal clear. It is not crystal clear at
:05:20. > :05:24.all. If you have signed an oath saying that Hong Kong is an
:05:25. > :05:30.inalienable part of China, then what is the self-determination joys all
:05:31. > :05:33.about? If there is no choice to pursue a separate future and
:05:34. > :05:39.determine you want to break away from China, then there really is not
:05:40. > :05:44.a legitimate choice, is there? Let us make it clear, the oath and paper
:05:45. > :05:49.we signed is to respect the basic law. There will be amendments in the
:05:50. > :05:54.basic law which the first article saying that Hong Kong is a part of
:05:55. > :05:58.China, but, actually, there is possibility they will and meant
:05:59. > :06:03.that. And the rights of amendment is written in black and white in the
:06:04. > :06:07.basic law. -- amend. Upholding self-determination does not violate
:06:08. > :06:11.basic law. As Hong Kong people, we should have an opportunity and a
:06:12. > :06:17.choice to determine our future. The question is, you know, how realistic
:06:18. > :06:21.is the choice? I will quote a respected academic who studies Hong
:06:22. > :06:29.Kong or the time and is based in the UK, Steve Sanger, in the university
:06:30. > :06:32.of Nottingham, he says Beijing will not tolerate an independent Hong
:06:33. > :06:38.Kong, or even a significant January form of self-determination. --
:06:39. > :06:48.genuine. That is the truth, isn't it? For us, we are looking for 2047.
:06:49. > :06:52.That is not the near future, but that is what we have to prepare for.
:06:53. > :06:57.That moment could bring a change. For now, I don't know whether we
:06:58. > :07:02.could really get that, but that is the direction we have the head in.
:07:03. > :07:06.Hong Kong people deserve higher autonomy. It is one thing saying it
:07:07. > :07:10.and it is another getting real change. I wonder what you could
:07:11. > :07:15.achieve in the Legislative Council. I mean, congratulations, you did
:07:16. > :07:19.well to win a seat, and I think you took some people by surprise, but
:07:20. > :07:24.the bottomline is that there are at least 40 of the 70 seats in the
:07:25. > :07:30.Legislative Council owned by a pro-China parties and politicians.
:07:31. > :07:33.Realistically, there is very little you could hope to achieve. Well,
:07:34. > :07:39.first, thank you for the congratulations. Second, I believe
:07:40. > :07:44.that as I have mentioned, getting resources out of the council is very
:07:45. > :07:50.important. And for the other part, we can deliver in the council to
:07:51. > :07:56.stop the laws that are not getting support from the public in the
:07:57. > :08:01.council, and that is important. That is because, for now, the system of
:08:02. > :08:09.the Legislative Council allows the very minority interest class to
:08:10. > :08:13.control the middle. When we talk about this new local last movement,
:08:14. > :08:17.people like you who are really pushing for self-determination in
:08:18. > :08:22.Hong Kong, not the old style pan democratic politicians are but a new
:08:23. > :08:27.style of more radical self-determination advocates, you
:08:28. > :08:34.are not that many in the council. -- localist movement. Only half a dozen
:08:35. > :08:40.or more. I am not sure the filibustering will take you far. I
:08:41. > :08:46.feel there is room for cooperation. Actually, in the pan Democrats there
:08:47. > :08:54.are many who support self-determination. I feel it is
:08:55. > :09:00.clear. There are rooms and consensus among them. How far are you prepared
:09:01. > :09:04.to push confrontation with the Chief Executive and all those in Hong Kong
:09:05. > :09:09.who in essence are backing the current status quo and are
:09:10. > :09:12.supportive of China? Because, you know, China, after the recent
:09:13. > :09:16.elections, they were probably taken aback that you did so well. The
:09:17. > :09:22.Chinese government issued statements talking about, quiet, resolute
:09:23. > :09:26.opposition to any form of Hong Kong independence activities, warning
:09:27. > :09:32.that any actions that violated basic laws and China's laws would be seen
:09:33. > :09:36.as a threat to China's sovereignty and security. -- quote. Are you
:09:37. > :09:42.prepare to have a showdown with Beijing? That same wording appeared
:09:43. > :09:47.long before the fight for democracy. It is a sign of separation in Hong
:09:48. > :09:52.Kong and China. That is a mental threat coming from mainland China. I
:09:53. > :09:56.believe that if our notion is getting support from the massive
:09:57. > :10:01.public and it results in the result of the election, we should have that
:10:02. > :10:05.freedom to express our will, even though I am not pushing for
:10:06. > :10:08.independence, I believe that having that freedom to express that
:10:09. > :10:14.political opinion is one of our core values and cornerstones. So far I
:10:15. > :10:18.have offered you congratulations and suggested you did very well in the
:10:19. > :10:23.election. But now, it was the argument a little bit. Yeah, you do
:10:24. > :10:27.pretty well, but the bottom line is you guys on the radical end of the
:10:28. > :10:31.self determination argument did not have the mass support of the Hong
:10:32. > :10:36.Kong people. Most people in Hong Kong are more concerned about bread
:10:37. > :10:39.and butter economic issues than they are about basic law and
:10:40. > :10:47.constitutional arguments. Well, that is the thing that we want to change.
:10:48. > :10:53.Going back to the Occupy movement, those who came out to protest were
:10:54. > :11:00.from the pro-Beijing camp. So we got a load of support and enlightenment
:11:01. > :11:06.in society. I don't mean that it is not a situation where Hong Kong
:11:07. > :11:11.people are sick of the poor governance from CY Leung, actually,
:11:12. > :11:16.he is the one majority Hong Kong people oppose. So that is really,
:11:17. > :11:22.really simple for us. Obviously we know that we are not majority in the
:11:23. > :11:29.council but we want to push for a change that is the direction we will
:11:30. > :11:33.go. CY Leung, the Chief Executive, you see the people are not with him.
:11:34. > :11:38.But all the signs are that either he is going to be nominated again in
:11:39. > :11:42.2017 to be Chief Executive again, or somebody quite like him who is very
:11:43. > :11:44.friendly to Beijing will be nominated in his place. If that
:11:45. > :11:49.happens, how can you stop it? That is the problem
:11:50. > :11:51.of Hong Kong now. The electoral system,
:11:52. > :11:53.actually for the people, even though we are in
:11:54. > :11:56.the majority, over 55% of them, That is the problem we are facing
:11:57. > :12:00.and we are fighting for reform One of the ironies here is that
:12:01. > :12:10.you and your colleagues in the protest movement
:12:11. > :12:12.and in the Legislative Council as well, you block a change
:12:13. > :12:15.in the system that would have at least allowed Hong Kong
:12:16. > :12:18.voters to have a vote Because of your disagreement
:12:19. > :12:22.with that approach, we are back to the old status quo where just
:12:23. > :12:25.a thousand people will choose the Chief Executive,
:12:26. > :12:28.you could have had a larger electorate and you
:12:29. > :12:33.chose to block it. It was not in the Hong Kong
:12:34. > :12:36.democratic system, if you carefully take a look at the proposal,
:12:37. > :12:39.the candidate has to be approved by more than half of the people
:12:40. > :12:43.in the 1200 election committee and that means the Beijing
:12:44. > :12:45.government have full power of electing who comes out
:12:46. > :12:48.to run for the election. That means Hong Kong
:12:49. > :12:50.people have no choice, they have to choose only for those
:12:51. > :12:53.who are from Beijing and who is appointed
:12:54. > :12:55.by Beijing Council. That has to be made very clear,
:12:56. > :12:58.it is not progress, You may put it that way,
:12:59. > :13:25.but I am tempted to say isn't About wanting a different system,
:13:26. > :13:29.genuine democratisation and a different system,
:13:30. > :13:32.they are all whistling in the wind as long as the reality is that China
:13:33. > :13:35.completely dominates Hong Kong, More than 40% of the overseas trade
:13:36. > :13:40.goes direct to mainland China. In terms of leverage,
:13:41. > :13:42.China holds all the cards and the people of Hong Kong know it
:13:43. > :13:57.and most of them accept it. Well, I think that also shows how
:13:58. > :14:05.important Hong Kong is to China. That is one thing that
:14:06. > :14:07.we could fight for, Sorry to interrupt, it is very rude,
:14:08. > :14:13.but how can you successfully fight China when China holds
:14:14. > :14:20.all the economic cards? Hong Kong needs China much more
:14:21. > :14:24.than China needs Hong Kong Well, I believe as Hong Kong people,
:14:25. > :14:30.of course we know that We have to defend our autonomy
:14:31. > :14:39.and our human rights. I believe that it is not that
:14:40. > :14:42.Hong Kong needs China, there is a trade agreement,
:14:43. > :14:49.if Hong Kong is not part of China, then there may be a situation where
:14:50. > :14:53.we could sign up to an agreement. I think many people
:14:54. > :15:02.from Hong Kong would Look at the reliance of Hong Kong
:15:03. > :15:08.on Chinese customers, Chinese trade, Even things like your water supply,
:15:09. > :15:17.your electricity, your food supplies, you are completely reliant
:15:18. > :15:23.on mainland China. That is why we propose we should
:15:24. > :15:28.have our autonomy in our resources. If you look very carefully
:15:29. > :15:31.at Hong Kong tourism, we rely on a lot of high-quality
:15:32. > :15:37.foreign tourists instead As Hong Kong people,
:15:38. > :15:45.we need higher autonomy otherwise That is the basic cornerstone
:15:46. > :16:02.of one country system. It is a singular and separate system
:16:03. > :16:09.between Hong Kong and China and we cannot merge into one,
:16:10. > :16:12.and that leaves the uniqueness and the competitiveness
:16:13. > :16:18.of Hong Kong. it is you who wants
:16:19. > :16:26.to change the status quo, and I wonder what message,
:16:27. > :16:28.if you were successful, what message would that bring
:16:29. > :16:32.to the people of Tibet, are you aware of how sensitive this
:16:33. > :16:35.is to the Chinese If you think the current situation
:16:36. > :16:42.in Hong Kong is the status If you take a look very carefully
:16:43. > :16:52.on Hong Kong's index on freedom, any side of freedom, media,
:16:53. > :16:54.speech, demonstrations, Policies have been implemented
:16:55. > :17:07.to not respect our freedom, We are not the ones who disrupt,
:17:08. > :17:12.the Beijing government We go back to the original idea
:17:13. > :17:23.of one country system... Our internal issue is not
:17:24. > :17:26.being dealt with by the That is one thing that
:17:27. > :17:30.we want to achieve. We want Hong Kong to become
:17:31. > :17:36.a city with autonomy. You talk about repression and I am
:17:37. > :17:41.very well aware that after the 2014 protests, you yourself ended up
:17:42. > :17:43.arrested for incitement. You were sentenced to 120 hours
:17:44. > :17:49.of community service. Are you worried, particularly
:17:50. > :17:54.yourself because of your personal situation, your mother
:17:55. > :17:58.is from mainland China, you have family in mainland China,
:17:59. > :18:01.are you worried not only about your personal safety
:18:02. > :18:05.but the safety of your family? As the current situation,
:18:06. > :18:21.I believe if I fight more bravely, then my family will be more safe,
:18:22. > :18:29.because they know that I am in the spotlight and they are not
:18:30. > :18:33.to harass them with a high I believe that it is very important
:18:34. > :18:44.for us to force out and be brave. That is quite a gamble
:18:45. > :18:49.you are taking, your belief that the more you speak out
:18:50. > :18:52.and the more you fight, the more the Chinese government
:18:53. > :18:55.will be fearful of doing anything Well, for fighting for higher
:18:56. > :19:08.values, I am prepared It is really difficult for me
:19:09. > :19:14.to think of any situation That is one thing that the Beijing
:19:15. > :19:20.government has to face The China of autocracy should not
:19:21. > :19:36.exercise those brutal powers on the ordinary people
:19:37. > :19:38.and on the freedoms we enjoy. I just wonder if there is any sense
:19:39. > :19:52.in which you fear that in Hong Kong itself there is something
:19:53. > :19:55.of a feeling of xenophobia You are an interesting case
:19:56. > :20:01.because your family are split between the Hong Kong groups
:20:02. > :20:04.and the mainland Chinese, but when we see people
:20:05. > :20:06.protesting about the degree to which the Chinese,
:20:07. > :20:09.their shopping habits, are creating shortages in Hong Kong
:20:10. > :20:15.or pushing up real estate prices and some Hong Kong people referred
:20:16. > :20:24.to the Chinese as locusts. That is a very unattractive trend
:20:25. > :20:31.in Hong Kong, is it not? Well, I oppose any behaviour
:20:32. > :20:34.spreading hatred towards all What I have been doing is targeting
:20:35. > :20:49.the Communist party. I oppose framing them
:20:50. > :20:57.as locusts, that is one It is a problem of the government
:20:58. > :21:01.and we should express more concerns about the situation
:21:02. > :21:03.of mainland China's people. You are the youngest member
:21:04. > :21:14.of the Legislative Council You pointed out to me that the basic
:21:15. > :21:23.law system comes to an end in 2047, what on earth do
:21:24. > :21:30.you think will happen? You will be still alive God willing,
:21:31. > :21:34.what do you think will happen after the 50-year
:21:35. > :21:37.arrangement comes to an end? I hope that Hong Kong
:21:38. > :21:40.people will have the right That is what I am striving for,
:21:41. > :21:46.the reason why I wanted To be clear, you do not
:21:47. > :21:56.believe that Hong Kong If the Chinese government keep
:21:57. > :22:02.repressing the Hong Kong people, then there will be more and more
:22:03. > :22:08.people having problems and having these doubts towards
:22:09. > :22:10.the one country system, and that is what is
:22:11. > :22:16.happening now, I feel. The truth is we are talking
:22:17. > :22:22.about a country of well over a billion people,
:22:23. > :22:24.and you in your territory There will only be one
:22:25. > :22:30.result if there is a clash between Hong Kong and Beijing,
:22:31. > :22:32.and you are not going I do not think such kinds
:22:33. > :22:44.of problems are being counted in the population
:22:45. > :22:59.or the powers like this. I believe in the future,
:23:00. > :23:01.Hong Kong, as you say, may be comparatively a small city,
:23:02. > :23:05.but it has very high competitiveness in its economy and its unique
:23:06. > :23:07.cultural background. There will be a moment in 2047
:23:08. > :23:10.that we may have the right I believe it is just like the other
:23:11. > :23:19.examples in other places where there are referendums
:23:20. > :23:22.talking about independence. We are almost out of time,
:23:23. > :23:25.I wanted to quote the late Lee Kuan Yew,
:23:26. > :23:31.who led Singapore for so long. Hong Kong people must
:23:32. > :23:33.accept a basic reality, in 50 years' time it will be one
:23:34. > :23:36.country, one system, Well, for the Hong Kong people,
:23:37. > :23:45.they do not accept that, and I believe that is the consensus
:23:46. > :23:48.of the Hong Kong people. It is not just me or the supporters
:23:49. > :23:55.of me from my camp. It is completely unacceptable,
:23:56. > :23:58.because the original idea of one country, two systems,
:23:59. > :24:06.it is to protect our values. The fight goes on, but we have
:24:07. > :24:09.to end the interview right there. Nathan Law, thank you very much
:24:10. > :24:14.indeed for joining me on HARDtalk.